Chopper's "I go where the wind takes me"

...well, 60 bb killer, but all the same, IT'S SHORT.

SHORT STACK OP THREAD...

i want to: chronicle my adventures in short-stacking

reasoning: i used to buy in for 80 bb's as a "stop loss" back in the day. but, i started buying in deeper/full because i was a "winning" player up through 100NL. and, i felt that, if there was a skill difference, you take MORE advantage of weaker players when you have MORE money on the tables at any given time. and, that is true, standard advice.

i played my way up to 100NL through some good play, a weak environment (pre-Frist), with bonuses, and paid some of my bills routinely EVERY month while going through some financial "tough times." and, it all started on a borrowed $25. so, its not like i'm exactly "new to poker." but, i aint no pro, either.

i, also, voluntarily moved back down because of a series of events. mostly wanting to play on the same tables as my brother for fun. but, i fell in love with the ease of the uber-micro stakes, and the almost total lack of variance involved. obviously, i picked up some really bad habits, and probably regressed...

i did well for awhile, 12+ months, at 10NL. i played a mixture of FR and 6max. but, within 7 months, i was predominantly a 6max player, and played exclusively 6max for about a year. but, during 2007, things started to drop off. i hit some longer stretches of variance (duh) and threw in a lot of my own bad play/tilt. the length of this stretch (3+ months) really rocked my confidence because it was unlike anything i had ever experienced before. it rocked my confidence right down to the fundamentals.

i did, however, play rather well at 10NL, and upon talking with a friend, i decided to move back up. if we do the math, a 10 ptbb/100 winrate at 10NL and a 1 ptbb/100 winrate at 100NL are the same amount of money. i figured there was more upside in a 1/100 at 100NL than a 10/100 at 10NL. so, i decided to start to climb again. i moved up to 25NL in August of 2007, and swiftly had the worst month of my life. i lost 10 BIs in the first week, and was down 12 BIs by time the month was over. my previous worst was 5 BIs...so you can see the "feeling lost." i moved right back down....confidence RE-rocked to its very core! and, to boot, this was all starting to turn me into a scared player....weak/tight.

i, then, read an article suggesting that 6max may not be what it used to be. that people are over there chasing higher winrates, but the real winrates may actually reside in FR currently. i immediately identified with that article, and switched back to my "bread and butter"...FR. i was searching for ANYthing that would pull me out of my funk, and give me my "mojo" back. i thought, for sure, the winning would start again...it didnt. all the while, i am reading as much as i can (sometimes further confusing myself by trying to solve too many problems at one time), asking questions, trying my best to work on things, but still not showing improvement. i tell myself, "i must have regressed to the point of becoming a poor poker player. was i now a fish?" deep down, though, i didnt really believe that. i just started questioning myself.

i also read an article about short-stacking. that thread initially made so much sense to me...because it was sort of what i used to do. but, i was still VERY adamant about buying in deep when you have a skill advantage...still am. i didnt ever see a reason for short-stacking at a micro or low stakes game. however, i wanted to do some "research" to get inside the heads of other short-stackers. i wanted to see what these assholes were doing and why. they are so aggravating!! they hit and run. they ruin decent tables. they make you adjust to THEM at times. i hated them with a passion. i read a couple of websites and discovered that there may be a method to the madness...a strategy, if you will. here are the most influential articles and sites that i found...

- Fnord's "Half-Stacking Approach to NLHE"
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...he-t62479.html
- Ed Miller on PokerNotedAuthority.com
- DonkeyDevastation.com
- the Short-Stack Ninja
http://megapotsofgold.blogspot.com/

read those, if you want to.

i decided...3-4 months later (Feb 20, to be exact)...to give it a shot, seriously. i thought it would pull me away from weak/tight and put the unadulterated aggression back in my game. so far, it has. and, its kind of fun. but, there are a lot of good points as to WHY play this way.

i will try and post MY own take on MY strategy (i am no great thinker when it comes to poker, but i believe i possess some common sense). obviously, it is largely influenced by the links above.

i will try and chronicle MY adventure here in this "operation" and...NO WHERE ELSE. if people find it, good. if people get something out of it...better. i, in no way, will claim to be an expert in poker play or theory...or short-stacking. this is just the best way to improve MY game at the current time. here's why...

i had become a virtual nit...very weak/tight. and, i was losing that aggression that was why i was a winning player. i saw short-stacking as the best way to get that aggression back...period.

i plan to post my "insights"...lol...in the next post. i will include some examples, too.

that's the intro part to my Operation. from here, i plan to throw in a lot of HHs, updates on my bankroll/stats, and a good bit of theory/philosophy when/if i pick up on something. now, LETS GET IT ON!!!

I hate shortstackers cuz I feel like they have an edge over me no matter how I adjust.

Read the "How to adjust to shortstacks"-sticky on 2+2, it´s always good to get the picture how your opponents mind is working.

GL on your OP and please don´t sit to my left

i know i said i would post some examples and pros/cons to shorting next, but i felt that it would be important to cover Bankroll Management first, since its a little different, imo.

"first, are we using 100 bb's, or 60 bb's, as OUR buy in?"
i use 60 bbs.

"do we still need 20-25 BIs? or do we need more? or can we do less?"
we are probably playing a little more volatile style here. so, we should strongly consider carrying more than the standard 20ish BIs. but, so long as we have a "loss limit" set up, we can still stay somewhat aggressive with our bankroll. i will often call this the "30/40 rule." there is another FTR poster, BigSpenda73, that uses a similar number, and this is where it came from.

essentially, we will move up when we have 30 BIs for the next level. and, we will, immediately, move back down when we go under 40 BIs for the PREVIOUS level.

example...we need a bankroll of 30 BIs to play 10NL. but, we are only buying in for 60 bb's, right? therefore, OUR buy in is $6...not $10. we need 30, $6 buy ins to play 10NL. thats $180! and we will move back down when we hit 40 BIs for 5NL. well, we buy in on a 5NL table for $3. so, 40 X $3 = $120. that gives us a cushion of $60 to experiment with....or 10 BIs at 10NL.

example...we want to move to 50 NL from 25NL. we need $30 (50NL buy in) X 30...or $900 to move up. and we move back down if we hit $15 X 40...or $600.

others will tell you that you need more. others will tell you to do it with less. this is what i use, and it's what i assume for the sake of this operation.

others will tell you that you should also be "beating a game" for X amount before moving up even if your bankroll is ready. i think this is sound advice, but i dont mind moving back down. its not a source of embarrassment for me. i am a hobbyist, not a professional. so, i can do what i want...so can you.

i dont mean that to be arrogant sounding. the above is VERY solid advice, and true if you dont ever want to move up and down and up and down. i, however, dont mind.

that ought to cover basic bankroll management, for now.

Originally Posted by XTR1000

I hate shortstackers cuz I feel like they have an edge over me no matter how I adjust.

Read the "How to adjust to shortstacks"-sticky on 2+2, it´s always good to get the picture how your opponents mind is working.

GL on your OP and please don´t sit to my left

thanks for the tip...and if you buy in deep...on your left is the only place i'll be...lol.

care to provide a link? i looked in most of the sub-forums over there, and couldnt find it. i found one by "pokey" that was good, but not the one you are talking about. thanks.

I usually hate to link away from FTR, but now that I´ve mentioned 2+2....
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...umber=12157664

Suggested better title for this OP:
2 INCHES OF DANGLING DEATH.

GL with this Chopper.

SHORTING 101 - THE BASICS

SHORTING 101...

we are basically looking to minimize our losses, and at looser, wilder tables, looking to maintain the advantage with better cards. there are lots of benefits to "short." disallowing implied odds to draw against you is probably the largest, imo. and, therefore, when someone draws anyway, they are making a large mistake. the villains also have to worry about us pushing them in earlier than they would like while they try and keep watch over the other big stack in the hand with them/us. obviously, not a great spot to be in. however, we no longer need to worry about that particualar "tough spot" because most of the players we are attacking will have us "covered."

here are some basics...

60 bb BI. reasoning: most limped pots get in on river. most raised pots get in on turn. and, FE on pf pushes and flop pushes.

bankroll management. 30/40 rule in effect. move up with 30 BIs for next level. move back down with 40 BIs for previous level.

start at 5NL...
- up to 10NL with $10 X .6 = $6 X 30 BIs = $180. back to 5NL with $5 X .6 = $3 X 40 = $120. gives 10 BI cushion.
- up to 25NL with $450. back to 10NL with $240. gives 14 BI cushion.
- up to 50NL with $900. back to 25NL with $600. gives 10 BI cushion.
- up to 100NL with $1800. back to 50NL with $1200. gives 10 BI cushion.
- up to 200NL with $3600. back to 100NL with $2400. gives 10 BI cushion.

raise first in 4-5X and add 1X for each limper. we are looking for TPTK and better on most boards. if we connect with the flop, we start sizing to get all in by turn.

ex...here we pick up KK in ep. we raise 5X to start sizing our monster for easy stacking. we get called by one. we flop overpair, we lead 90% of time (we dont slow play short stacks), especially on flushy/paired boards. we are looking to felt this hand asap. we lead almost pot so, if called, we can shove turn with only a slight overbet. flushes may call, if we win right there on turn...fine. but, the vast majority of the time, we are getting all our money in ahead of villains here. this is what we want with short-stacked poker. we want our money in ahead, and let the math take over from there. if we get outdrawn, we get outdrawn. at least we minimize the damage, but give ourselves maximum advantage to double up.

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Absolute-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($5.75)
MP1 ($5.53)
MP2 ($11.50)
MP3 ($25.40)
CO ($4)
Button ($1.55)
SB ($4.78)
BB ($6.83)
UTG ($22.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.5, MP1 calls $0.50, 6 folds.

Flop: ($1.15) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $1, MP1 calls $1.

Turn: ($3.15) (2 players)
Hero bets 4.25 , MP1 bets $4.03 (All-In).

River: ($3.15) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $-0.88

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Ks (two pair, kings and tens).
MP1 has 8h Ah (one pair, tens).
Outcome:

in limped pots, i may take an extra street to get everything in, but often we are drawing or hitting sets in limped pots. therefore, the extra street doesnt hurt us nearly as much as it would TPTK or one pair hands.

<TT we generally set hunt from ep and mp, keeping in mind we need our own implied odds to call raises, which is another reason i like 60 bb's. it gives us a little more cushion to call bigger raises with smaller pp's that we wouldnt have with a 40-50 bb stack size. mostly, we check/fold flops oop with small and mid pp's, but not always. (a dry board with an A on it, in a limped pot is not a bad place to put in a psb on the flop with 2-3 players only in the hand.)

ex...we limp/set hunt 66 here. lots of action preflop on a loose table. we hit Yahtzee on the flop, and DO NOT play it slow, especially with the flush draws up. lead out psb, and RR AI if anyone tries to raise your lead. a c/r here is too strong a message, and not something we typically do...so dont do it now. we pick up a couple of callers, and start judging the size of the pot for a potential turn shove. we have too large a stack still in a limped pot, so we lead about half our stack (but still deny odds to the first villain). this makes it a no brainer to felt the river, and we will get called a lot (looking bluffy) when the draw misses. we just cant shove the turn, as we have a little too much FE still.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($5.90)
UTG+1 ($20.15)
MP1 ($8.45)
MP2 ($6.35)
MP3 ($10.55)
CO ($9.85)
BTN ($19.10)
SB ($9.90)
BB ($4.70)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 9 players) Hero is UTG
Hero calls $0.1, UTG+1 calls $0.1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.1, 1 fold, CO calls $0.1, BTN calls $0.1, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: ($0.65, 6 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.6, UTG+1 calls $0.6, 1 fold, CO calls $0.6, 1 fold, BB folds

Turn: ($2.45, 3 players)
Hero bets $2.4, 1 fold, CO goes all-in $9.15, Hero goes all-in $2.8

River: ($12.85, 2 players)

Final Pot: $12.85
CO shows:
Hero shows:

CO wins $3.95 ( lost -$5.9 )
Hero wins $12.25 ( won +$6.35 )
MP2 lost -$0.10
BTN lost -$0.10
BB lost -$0.10
UTG+1 lost -$0.70

in a 3bet pot, we are looking to felt flops, if possible. we, generally but not always, are 3betting only super premiums; therefore, the sizing is to get it in on flops we like. 3.5X minimum for 3bets w/ position. and, 4X w/o position. with a $4+ flop, and a $3.70 stack left, this is an easy push even if villain didnt lead out so weak.

ex...we pick up an obvious 3bet situation, but here we have a cold-caller, so we add 1X to our 3bet size to ensure we get it in on a safe-ish flop.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($5.00)
UTG+1 ($3.65)
MP1 ($13.30)
MP2 ($7.65)
Hero ($5.70)
CO ($10.25)
BTN ($10.10)
SB ($1.60)
BB ($10.05)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 9 players) Hero is MP3
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.4, MP2 calls $0.4, Hero raises to $2, 4 folds, MP1 calls $1.6, MP2 folds

Flop: ($4.55, 2 players)
MP1 bets $0.7, Hero goes all-in $3.7, MP1 calls $3

Turn: ($11.95, 2 players)

River: ($11.95, 2 players)

Final Pot: $11.95
MP1 shows:
Hero shows:

Hero wins $11.4 ( won +$5.7 )
MP1 lost -$5.70
MP2 lost -$0.40

these are just the basics. i get told all the time that shorting is "boring, unimaginative poker." well, i dont know about you, but thats the poker i like. i dont want marginal hands and tough decisions. others say, "shorting stunts your growth as a hand reader," and while i agree, i am not good at reading hands, and will retain the right to change my mind at any time, but currently, i am sick of trying to read them anyway.

but, there are also many "moves" you can make with a short stack. you can push pf to catch a ton of dead money. you can c/r bluff on flops. you can minbet to induce raises. you can minraise with draws to keep the raise small, but build a pot when the next card completes your draw. but, all of these pale (sp?) in comparison to playing straight up abc poker.

however, there are spots to "mix it up." we dont want our villains thinking we ALWAYS have the nuts. we will start being avoided at higher levels, for sure. i will leave those spots for you to find for now.


however, here is one really good example, imo, of what you need to be prepared for when shorting...not quite as easy...

villain is semi-loose/passive and has already shown me he wont raise AK at any point in the hand when in position. total calling station...the kind you DONT cbet w/o connecting with the flop, especially oop...but also take note of the 7X starting raise. the reason was that i had two other (total of 3) very loose players left to act behind me...and i wanted them very discouraged from calling. they may call 5X, and i dont necessarily want that, and because of that, i am already on the lookout for AK when i get called.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($6.00)
Hero ($6.50)
MP1 ($4.80)
MP2 ($22.40)
MP3 ($7.30)
CO ($23.85)
BTN ($12.05)
SB ($1.90)
BB ($6.00)
[UTG posted $0.1]

Pre-flop: ($0.25, 9 players) Hero is UTG+1
UTG checks, Hero raises to $0.7, 6 folds, BB calls $0.6, UTG folds

Flop: ($1.55, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.5, BB folds

Final Pot: $1.55

Hero wins $3 ( won +$0.8 )
BB lost -$0.70
UTG lost -$0.10

i HAVE to fire the flop the same way i do with AK, but i dont really like it. and, i HAVE to push the turn here, too. this is why it was a "scary hand oop" for me. if i am up against AK/sets, i am a complete gonner because of shorting, once i make the flop lead....i am not folding. if i want to max earnings while playing short, there is no time here to get cute and back off. we must felt this hand, and hope villain isnt on AK or a set.

See how your turn bets tend to be just a *hair* large quite often? This is why I switched to 50bb and then to 40bb. It probably doesnt matter much, but it seems much easier to play to me.

this would be great to discuss because that is WHY i picked 60 bb's. i wanted the slight overbet, and thought i may have some 3-way pots, too, at the lower levels.

obv, 50 would get me about right on pot size on most turns, though.

i will also include 2 screenshots here.

one at 10NL...small sample, but sometimes you know, after a couple years, when you are playing well. definitely positive variance in there, too, but i got stacked a bunch, as well.


two is at 25NL...the debut with shorting. again, a small sample. so, nothing to panic over, yet. i am taking 14 BIs with me as a cushion. oops. only 5 left...lol.


i CAN think of several hands where i didnt play 100% correctly, but a lot of these are horrid enough beats that if we swing sklansky's numbers around, i am running only slightly negative. but, hey, thats poker, right?

i will tell you this much, if you run 16/10ish or tighter, it will be hard to beat you when you have a short stack...and are aggressive with it. seems, at lower stakes, you can really only beat yourself. after all, i still see players calling huge psb's in raised pots with ATo oop, and felting it on the turn, with only the gutshot (duh) and calling 6X raises cold from the BB with A2o (c'mon).

and my personal favorite, limping AA from MP2, only calling the 5X raise from button and catching their set when against AKs on a A K Q flop!! who folds AKs there?

strange stuff on the short-stacking front to report. for those that say there isnt much of a difference between 10NL and 25NL, i beg to differ. sure, both players tend to suck, but the 25NL players are a bit tighter, have learned to 3bet a little more, float big time, raise cbettable boards a little, and will bomb you with a bet the minute you check and look like you are giving up oop.

some would say "dont play oop, then." well, duh. but not as easy when your AK has whiffed and the board is 5c 9c Th 7h. thats a pretty good spot to give up on your AK, but you get blasted with a 2/3 pot bet, and still may be best. after all, he called your raise and only plays 12% of his hands. for me at least, a fairly common situation right now. but, whatever.

i got to doing a TON of thinking, and may take Euph's suggestion and drop off to 50 bbs as my BI. here is some of the reasoning and "tweaking" i have been playing with on paper...

if it is standard that you can call a bet, pf, with 5% implied odds behind in effective stacks, we dont want to carry something over what we are raising as our standard amount. mine has been 5X, for this reason. it also allows me to get it in on most turns in a HU pot. heres an example of how 5X looks.

(60 bb stack) HU pot.
- you open raise for 5X, one caller 5X, 1X (rounded down) in the blinds. pot at 11X (55 left in your stack)
- you come in for full psb on flop for 11X, caller 11X. pot now 33X (44 in stack)
- you pretty much are pushing the turn. maybe you c/r, but its in or out now. and you have a god's plenty FE with the overbet. great, but i am finding only better calls you. again, DUH. my bad.
- i was basing this mostly on 3 way pots, where the turn push is NOT an overbet.

but, take a look at this way...

(50 bb stack) HU pot.
- you open for 3X instead, get a caller at 3X, and 1X blinds. pot at 10X. (47 left in stack)
- you now come in for 3/4 pot on your cbet for 8X, get the caller for 8X. pot at 26X. (39 left)
- look the same? not really (i'll get into why in a minute).
- turn you lead 2/3 for 9X, caller's 9X. pot at 44X (30 left)
- look at your river bet size! 2/3 pot. you are not quite committed, but can call a lot profitably. if you lead, you are going to get called a good bit. but, if you check, to induce a bluff, you have 2.46:1 pot odds to call, or you need to be correct 40% of the time to breakeven.

people say there is no "creativity" in this style. i say, "HA!"

if you c/r the turn, you go all-in, if villain bets a normal size...
- back to turn from above. pot of 26X. you check, and villain bets 15-20X, you bomb him AI w/ your 39X stack. you are throwing 2-2.75X at him. say he fires 20X, you go AI for 39X making the pot 85X. he is getting 4.5:1, barely good enough for flushes and open-enders, but not for pairs with gutters, or overcards alone. but, if he comes at you with only 15X and you c/r all-in, you make the pot 80X. he is calling 24X into 80X, or 3.33:1. in other words, he doesnt have odds to draw to flushes or OE's. and he has NO implieds to make up the difference because we are AI.

just some random thoughts while playing with stacks and bet sizes. please correct my "odds calculations" if they are off. this is the way i understand them, and this isnt my strongest area.

but, look at what else the 3X size does for you. you can open wider, cbet a bit more, encourage callers to take advantage of you because its not a 4-5X raise. if you like to cbet in lp, this may not be a bad idea. and, if you look at the implieds someone needs pf against you to play sc's and other speculatives against your weenie raise, you will see, of a 50bb stack, they need 5%...or 2.5X raises. but we are raising 3-5X depending on limpers. if we can avoid multi-way pots the majority of the time, it stands to reason that they are making poor decisions by calling you, even if they get your stack.

making sense, i hope?

GL dude. You do know what I think about shortstacks.

Originally Posted by Chopper

essentially, we will move up when we have 30 BIs for the next level. and, we will, immediately, move back down when we go under 40 BIs for the PREVIOUS level.

Good thinking.

Now run the math for 40bb with a 4x PFR and see how the river doesnt even matter.

And stop playing full ring.

what do you run in ep? lp?

i am about 10/6 ep, 14/10 mid, and 26/20 late.

bout right? would you change much in 6max?

euph, i asked you a question in the previous post, in case you missed it.

but, i wanted to put some hands in here, too.

huge mistake by villain in calling my 3bet. no implied odds whatsoever. sure, he got the stack, but he doesnt hit often enough for it to make money. great job, luckbox.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($25.35)
UTG+1 ($15.30)
Hero ($12.65)
BTN ($23.65)
SB ($27.15)
BB ($26.50)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is CO
UTG raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.5, 3 folds, UTG calls $1.75

Flop: ($5.35, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.5, UTG calls $3.5

Turn: ($12.35, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero goes all-in $6.65, UTG calls $6.65

River: ($25.65, 2 players)

Final Pot: $25.65
UTG shows:
Hero shows:

UTG wins $24.4 ( won +$11.75 )
Hero lost -$12.65


JJ not strong enough to push over pf, right?

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($51.10)
UTG+1 ($23.45)
Hero ($12.40)
MP2 ($34.10)
MP3 ($24.20)
CO ($11.90)
BTN ($24.65)
SB ($14.75)
BB ($15.85)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 9 players) Hero is MP1
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.25, MP2 calls $1.25, 2 folds, BTN raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero folds, MP2 calls $2.75

Flop: ($9.6, 2 players)
MP2 checks, BTN bets $6.5, MP2 folds

Final Pot: $9.60

BTN wins $15.65 ( won +$5.15 )
Hero lost -$1.25
MP2 lost -$4.00


villains both limp/call oop. i dont like cbetting this board, but against limp/callers its prolly mandatory? they will put me on either the Q or K and only call if they hit their sets, imo.

does that mean i need to let one bluff at me? i just dont think JJ can take a lot of heat here.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
7 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($18.85)
UTG+1 ($26.95)
MP ($25.85)
Hero ($12.65)
BTN ($14.25)
SB ($5.25)
BB ($23.25)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 7 players) Hero is CO
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, 3 folds, UTG calls $1, MP calls $1

Flop: ($4.1, 3 players)
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets $3.25, UTG folds, MP folds

Final Pot: $4.10

Hero wins $7.15 ( won +$2.65 )
UTG lost -$1.25
MP lost -$1.25


this one is good fun. i didnt want to push over original raiser because he was very passive pf and i had a station behind me. i wanted this one going multi way. and, yahtzee!! dream flop.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($17.60)
UTG+1 ($26.95)
MP1 ($24.60)
Hero ($15.30)
MP3 ($14.25)
CO ($5.15)
BTN ($21.75)
SB ($11.15)
BB ($25.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 9 players) Hero is MP2
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 raises to $1, MP1 raises to $1.75, Hero calls $1.75, 1 fold, CO raises to $3.5, 3 folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $2.5, MP1 calls $1.75, Hero calls $1.75

Flop: ($14.6, 4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero goes all-in $11.8, CO goes all-in $1.65, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds

Turn: ($17.9, 2 players)

River: ($17.9, 2 players)

Final Pot: $17.90
Hero shows:
CO shows:

Hero wins $27.2 ( won +$11.9 )
UTG lost -$0.25
UTG+1 lost -$3.50
MP1 lost -$3.50
CO lost -$5.15

1) shove flop. Interestingly enough, villain is ahead of you on this flop even though he currently holds 6 high.

2) In 6m, yes, easy shove. In FR I have no idea. People threebet so much tighter.

3) Reraise pre the first time. Dead money is your lifeblood. Take it at every opportunity.

I dont know what changes in FR. Your opponents will have better hands on average. This means that you have on average less folding equity. Its probably profitable to nutcamp you preflop.

I run 11/11 UTG and 22/20 OTB. If I'm playing, I'm raising.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

1) shove flop. Interestingly enough, villain is ahead of you on this flop even though he currently holds 6 high.

2) In 6m, yes, easy shove. In FR I have no idea. People threebet so much tighter.

3) Reraise pre the first time. Dead money is your lifeblood. Take it at every opportunity.

I dont know what changes in FR. Your opponents will have better hands on average. This means that you have on average less folding equity. Its probably profitable to nutcamp you preflop.

I run 11/11 UTG and 22/20 OTB. If I'm playing, I'm raising.

1) sure, i saw that, and therefore couldnt get pissed at the call, or a shove, post flop. but the calling of the 3bet was a collossal mistake by him, even though it got paid...it didnt get paid enough to make it worth HIS risk. thats why i love the short stack!! believe it or not, i still made money there because he will play it like that against me again and again.

but, you overbet shove that flop w/ 50 bb's? i can see it being a 10 bb overbet even with 40.

2) k

3) you missed this one, i think

4) the AKs hand. so, you dont see this as an opportunity to pull more in and minimize your pf risk with a passive already making a big raise...and the call station still acting behind you? even in light of those "reads," you 3bet automatically?

real hand #3, raise more preflop. Fine after that.

#4, yes any time your stack is about 2x pot or less, shoving is almost never going to be a mistake. Run the EV math.

ok. dropped back to 10NL, for a session. i wanted to "test" your 40 bb stack w/ 4X raises out. i dont know how i felt about it, and i'm sure i wasnt using it correctly, but here are a couple hands where i probably fucked up. but, i was after the dead money, and really didnt think anyone could call w/o AA...oops.

you prolly dont have a problem with this one...given no real reads...

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($9.90)
UTG+1 ($12.05)
MP1 ($12.40)
Hero ($4.90)
MP3 ($10.50)
CO ($8.85)
BTN ($10.25)
SB ($5.90)
BB ($4.75)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 9 players) Hero is MP2
UTG calls $0.1, UTG+1 calls $0.1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.5, 1 fold, CO raises to $1.5, 3 folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero goes all-in $4.9, CO calls $3.4

Flop: ($10.15, 2 players)

Turn: ($10.15, 2 players)

River: ($10.15, 2 players)

Final Pot: $10.15
Hero shows:
CO shows:

CO wins $9.65 ( won +$4.75 )
UTG lost -$0.10
UTG+1 lost -$0.10
Hero lost -$4.90


this one was great for image...lol.
i felt, at the time, that they fold to massive overbets w/o a real hand. and, if called, at least i am underneath any range and suited, if i get lucky. is this as bad as it looks?

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($9.90)
UTG+1 ($14.95)
MP1 ($6.30)
MP2 ($5.30)
MP3 ($9.95)
CO ($11.00)
BTN ($7.00)
SB ($7.30)
Hero ($4.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 9 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.2, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.2, CO calls $0.2, 1 fold, SB calls $0.15, Hero goes all-in $4, MP1 goes all-in $6.3, MP3 folds, CO folds, SB folds

Flop: ($8.6, 2 players)

Turn: ($8.6, 2 players)

River: ($8.6, 2 players)

Final Pot: $8.60
Hero shows:
MP1 shows:

MP1 wins $10.5 ( won +$4.2 )
SB lost -$0.20
Hero lost -$4.00
MP3 lost -$0.20
CO lost -$0.20

and, of course, i am never laying off this one. especially, when villain is 40/30 or better...lol...but, i noticed his stats well after the shove. not like it would change anything.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
7 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($5.60)
UTG+1 ($9.75)
MP ($10.00)
CO ($9.50)
Hero ($6.45)
SB ($4.30)
BB ($11.50)
[MP posted $0.1]
[CO posted $0.15]

Pre-flop: ($0.4, 7 players) Hero is BTN
2 folds, MP raises to $0.4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.2, 2 folds, MP goes all-in $10, Hero goes all-in $5.25

Flop: ($13.2, 2 players)

Turn: ($13.2, 2 players)

River: ($13.2, 2 players)

Final Pot: $13.20
MP shows:
Hero shows:

MP wins $16.1 ( won +$6.1 )
Hero lost -$6.45

wtf is up with that T7s hand???

wtf is up with the tittle? Is that british slang for small penis?

Cuz I insert penis for killer every time I see your thread.

1 is fine, 2 isn't as horrible as it looks but this is a 20bb move not a 40bb move.

3 is fine.

Stop playing FR.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

1 is fine, 2 isn't as horrible as it looks but this is a 20bb move not a 40bb move.

3 is fine.

Stop playing FR.

we'll see. is that because i will get called lighter in 6max games?

Originally Posted by pythonic

wtf is up with that T7s hand???

its a "dead money move." i knew it wasnt totally off base, but at 10NL, i had to be expecting a call. and, it gets ANY level's table to say exactly what you said. can you see how that may pay off when i do it w/ AA? again, just not the best for 10NL. prolly not even 25NL.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

wtf is up with the tittle? Is that british slang for small penis?

Cuz I insert penis for killer every time I see your thread.

yup. not british, tho. i thought it was standard. although, it may be a monty python thing. i cant remember where i got it. i did it because it gets views (marketing baby). and, its kind of a pun. short dick = short stack.

but, thanks for noticing. seriously, provide your input, too. i know you dont short, swigg. but, your advice has proven invaluable to me in the past.

I dont know how to explain it.

you want to exploit the people who are too loose and call you too lightly by making good hands and getting your opponents to do something stupid.

You want to pick up dead money, and abuse your POSITION. Remember, if you raise a limper preflop, they will only connect with a piece of the flop 1/3rd of the time. That piece is only a piece good enough to call your flop cbet about 1/3rd of THAT time.

Position. Aggression. Folding Equity. Valuebet.

dabbled with it at AP, where they call like monkeys. still cbet a little, but didnt do all that well. went through a large section of being absolutely card dead, too. down about $5. oh well.

went over to stars, and raped them blind. stealing blinds with marginal shit. and it didnt help that i got paid on AA, and KK twice. seemed easier to get it in.

wondering, if they traditionally call down lighter in 6max, is that a better game? if i run 18/15, it has to pay off easier, but also become suckout city at times.

got some range questions for you on 6max tables? i'll pm them.

Originally Posted by Chopper

but, thanks for noticing. seriously, provide your input, too. i know you dont short, swigg. but, your advice has proven invaluable to me in the past.

Thanks.

1) play 40bb like euph said.

Thoughts that could possibly be wrong:
2) size bets so you get it in a quick as possible
3) I wouldn't steal blinds without a read the blinds are tight. You're risking large portions of your stack with cbets on whiffed flops. A c/r will almost be putting you all-in.
4) Be prepared for variance. Not just knowing it's going to happen; you have to embrace and love it.
5) Don't be afraid to play too tight.

Like euph said, you're exploiting their tendency to call too light. They're going to say 'Fuck it lets gambool'. If your opening/cbet range is too wide you'll be giving up a lot of your edge. If I was playing vs you your entire stack would be in on the flop, or you're winning 4bb. Don't play hands you're not happy felting early.

good thoughts. and, i ran into a guy like you earlier today. lol. i left. he was on my left and kept fucking me AI. i didnt get involved with him but once or twice, but he was ready each time. i had to laugh, and find easier fishies.

here are the first 1k of 6max. definitely embracing THIS kind of variance, but i will show a couple hands, too, where this isnt exactly perfect river material. i seriously doubt a 20+ can be sustained, even at 10NL, but the numbers arent that out of the ordinary....a little high, but not way off the charts.

[img][/img]

early yet, but position looking good? MP should creep up over UTG, eventually?

[img][/img]


$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($17.55)
CO ($6.45)
BTN ($14.80)
Hero ($5.05)
BB ($4.70)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is SB
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, BB raises to $1.5, Hero goes all-in $5.05, BB goes all-in $3.2

Flop: ($9.4, 2 players)

Turn: ($9.4, 2 players)

River: ($9.4, 2 players)

Final Pot: $9.40
BB shows:
Hero shows:

BB wins $8.95 ( won +$4.25 )
Hero wins $0.35 ( lost -$4.7 )


$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($13.45)
UTG+1 ($10.00)
Hero ($4.65)
BTN ($8.80)
SB ($13.50)
BB ($9.65)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is CO
UTG raises to $0.4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.2, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.8

Flop: ($2.55, 2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.8, UTG calls $1.8

Turn: ($6.15, 2 players)
UTG goes all-in $10.45, Hero goes all-in $1.65

River: ($9.45, 2 players)
Hero says "dear lord"

Final Pot: $9.45
UTG shows:
Hero shows:

UTG wins $17.8 ( won +$4.35 )
Hero lost -$4.65


those two were particularly brutal...lol. keep playin' em that way, boys. you clearly dont understand implied odds preflop.

2k updates...

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

i aint no dummy. this is running white hot. but, its fun as hell.

i have been told "be prepared for variance." is this it? will they stack off with less, or do i need to tone down the pushing?

i have assumed that the beauty of shorting is the pushing. the fact that TPTK is getting called down by better...every time...has to be some variance, right? or, could i have picked up on some of these?

probably a bad push because only the flushes, and maybe sets call? thought i may drag in a stubborn TP or KK w/ a spade.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($40.20)
UTG+1 ($15.60)
CO ($35.15)
BTN ($47.05)
SB ($27.55)
Hero ($13.00)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BB
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, SB calls $0.15, Hero checks

Flop: ($1, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.75, UTG calls $0.75, UTG+1 calls $0.75, SB folds

Turn: ($3.25, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $2.5, Hero goes all-in $12, UTG calls $12, UTG+1 folds

River: ($29.75, 2 players)

Final Pot: $29.75
Hero shows:
UTG shows:

UTG wins $28.3 ( won +$15.3 )
Hero lost -$13.00
UTG+1 lost -$3.50
SB lost -$0.25


POKERSTARS GAME #15892303401: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/03/10 - 22:04:59 (ET)
Table 'Mnemosyne II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: jonq9s ($31.10 in chips)
Seat 3: pfsbulldawg ($12.40 in chips)
Seat 4: Gayy ($74.75 in chips)
Seat 5: bigpunny ($24.30 in chips)
Seat 6: leftyhdr3 ($16.85 in chips)
pfsbulldawg: posts small blind $0.10
Gayy: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pfsbulldawg [Ac Qc]
bigpunny: folds
leftyhdr3: folds
jonq9s: folds
pfsbulldawg: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Gayy: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [As 3d 6h]
pfsbulldawg: checks
Gayy: checks
*** TURN *** [As 3d 6h] [Ah]
pfsbulldawg: bets $1
Gayy: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [As 3d 6h Ah] [9h]
pfsbulldawg: bets $2
Gayy: raises $26 to $28
pfsbulldawg: calls $8.65 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Gayy: shows [5h 7h] (a flush, Ace high)
pfsbulldawg: mucks hand
Gayy collected $23.60 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $24.80 | Rake $1.20
Board [As 3d 6h Ah 9h]
Seat 1: jonq9s (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: pfsbulldawg (small blind) mucked [Ac Qc]
Seat 4: Gayy (big blind) showed [5h 7h] and won ($23.60) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 5: bigpunny folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: leftyhdr3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


wont villains stack off here w/ flush draws and possibly open-enders? two pair here, i assume, is a fluke. but, i assume the likelihood of overpairs is also a problem.

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($43.50)
CO ($25.25)
BTN ($17.85)
Hero ($11.75)
BB ($18.70)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is SB
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, BB calls $0.5

Flop: ($1.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, BB calls $1.25

Turn: ($4, 2 players)
Hero bets $2.5, BB raises to $5, Hero goes all-in $9.75, BB calls $4.75

River: ($23.5, 2 players)

Final Pot: $23.50
Hero shows:
BB shows:

BB wins $22.35 ( won +$10.6 )
Hero lost -$11.75


$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($36.65)
UTG+1 ($44.55)
CO ($38.45)
BTN ($19.25)
Hero ($12.00)
BB ($16.25)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, BTN calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.15, BB checks

Flop: ($1, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($1, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.25, BB folds, CO calls $1.5

River: ($5.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $3, CO raises to $12.5, Hero folds

Final Pot: $11.50

CO wins $20.45 ( won +$5.45 )
BTN lost -$0.25
Hero lost -$5.50
BB lost -$0.25


i cant call this, can i?

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($36.65)
UTG+1 ($44.55)
CO ($38.45)
BTN ($19.25)
Hero ($12.00)
BB ($16.25)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, BTN calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.15, BB checks

Flop: ($1, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($1, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.25, BB folds, CO calls $1.5

River: ($5.5, 2 players)
Hero bets $3, CO raises to $12.5, Hero folds

Final Pot: $11.50

CO wins $20.45 ( won +$5.45 )
BTN lost -$0.25
Hero lost -$5.50
BB lost -$0.25


$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($17.95)
UTG+1 ($25.00)
CO ($24.45)
BTN ($39.85)
SB ($14.40)
Hero ($16.90)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BB
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, Hero checks

Flop: ($1, 4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.75, UTG calls $0.75, 1 fold, SB folds

Turn: ($2.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.75, Hero raises to $2.5, UTG calls $1.75

River: ($7.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

Final Pot: $7.50
Hero shows:
UTG shows:

UTG wins $7.15 ( won +$3.65 )
SB lost -$0.25
Hero lost -$3.50
BTN lost -$0.25


ok, ok. some of those look bad to me right now. i dont know what the switch is from 10nl to 25nl, but i run some ugly lines at 25. i guess i gotta get a handle on that before i expect to beat it.

1) Std
2) wtf bet the flop! Std puke river call.
3) The smooth call minraise turn is usually a hand better than TPTK and folding it wouldnt be terrible. They will NEVER fold to your shove here.
4) bet the flop
5) same hand as 4
6) just bet again on the turn. Your hand isnt that strong. c/c or c/f river.

surprising lack of slam from you, euph. that makes me feel a bit better. i thought those were trashy lines myself.

AQ hand...i knew to bet flop...i got FPS. however, if i bet flop, and bet turn, standard puke river call is way better than the call w/o betting flop, by FAR right?

T3 hand...i can tone it down in spots, but i am also playing with the c/r against players with a higher turn aggression than flop aggression. i dont remember if that was the case here, but thats why the c/r ai. i wanted to see how much FE i had. i knew i was dead if i bet turn and checked river. what calls two streets that doesnt have the T3 beat? any other T has the kicker...so, i thought i could knock off another T w/ the bomb. obv, no go here.

ps. thanks for all the help so far. i come around rather slowly, but i come around.

Betting less than pot in small pots defeats the purpose of playing a short stack. DUCY?

my guess would be that it brings the river back into play, which is largely what we are trying to avoid.

I just went through the last set of HH's and for probably the first time ever I agree completly with eupho... damn it!


#1
I pot the flop, pot/call the turn
#2
Bet the flop!
#3
I don't like yoru turn bet size, i think its too small. It puts the riveri n play and you'll be leff with mor than a PSB
#4
Bet the turn
Don't get cute
bet/fold river is oke iwth me
#5
dbl post
#6
Quit with the fancy play shit, just play yoru hand face up they won't care. CR'ing them bruises their ego and they call you!

Originally Posted by mike4066

#6
Quit with the fancy play shit, just play yoru hand face up they won't care. CR'ing them bruises their ego and they call you!

does that mean we should look for opportunities to get worse to call? if it bruises their ego, which makes perfect sense, shouldnt we use that weapon when we dont think they will call another bet, but may stab if we let them?

thanks for the advice, guys. i'll get some more hands in here soon.

I was tired when I wrote that and think i missed the point.

What I was really trying to say was with shorter stacks CR's get called more often. Its more for value with me now than a bluff. Just play straight up and win, no need to get tricky.

60BB's is stil lenough to play small pots with small hands. Don't overcommit with a weak TP.

http://weaktight.com/130345

http://weaktight.com/130345

http://weaktight.com/130344

the AKs hand? please tell me that the push was right. i knew there was no 6 in the raised pot, and that KK/AA RR pf. so, i felt very confident my overcard outs were clean, too.

do you raise the JJ hand on the flop? i was up against a borderline maniac and wanted to see what he did on the turn. i am still not sold on the K, but cant call the push.

i run goot. quick 170 hand session, and only took one stack in return.

AA - WTF raise that flop

You didn't post an AK hand

JJ you bet the flop. What are you asking?

1) when villian smooth calls your flop raise on this type of board and leads out so big on the turn this is almost never a bluff. Call and re-evaluate the river.
2) bet the flop, no need to get tricky
3) bet at least pot on the turn
4) bet the flop
5) same as 4
6) bb special, keep that pot as small as possible

Weaktight hands

1) definitely raise flop with so many people in this hand, fold turn
2) duplicate of #1
3) Not beating anything after the turn, good fold!

#1 Raise the flop, fold to the push

#3 fold it

Originally Posted by swiggidy

AA - WTF raise that flop

You didn't post an AK hand

JJ you bet the flop. What are you asking?

the JJ hand i had confused w/ the AA hand. just fps...again. but, i'm prolly folding the turn?

sorry, the middle hand was supposed to be an AKs hand. i'll get it in here.

the JJ hand, was a good drop, tho, yes? the Q sealed the deal?

this should be the AKs hand...

http://weaktight.com/130348

AKs hand = NO NO NO
It is ok to fold AK unimproved post flop. You have no folding equity in this hand and very little to draw to with a bluff.

UTG has already limped/called a raise and re-raise, he has a hand he's in love with. That flop texture won't scare him at all.

I think you did right on the flop by not betting because mid pairs call these flops all the time to float the turn. I think check/calling the flop is a leak.

Turn CR? well that's just crayness 1/2 stacked or full stacked.

switch. to. 40. bb.

Originally Posted by mike4066

AKs hand = NO NO NO
It is ok to fold AK unimproved post flop. You have no folding equity in this hand and very little to draw to with a bluff.

UTG has already limped/called a raise and re-raise, he has a hand he's in love with. That flop texture won't scare him at all.

I think you did right on the flop by not betting because mid pairs call these flops all the time to float the turn. I think check/calling the flop is a leak.

Turn CR? well that's just crayness 1/2 stacked or full stacked.

i kind of see the point. but, please help me through this because its more of a conceptual thing. i felt he had a one pair hand...therefore, my A and K are good w/ backdoor nut flush draw. how is calling .70 into 2.60 a leak? thats almost 3.5:1 on about 7 outs w/ implied odds to felt if i hit. that said, sure, the shove was maybe bad, but i still dont think it is THAT bad. i picked up 9 more outs to the nuts, if he has a mid pair, he should drop that after a call and a c/r ai (granted, 10nl here)...that is a hugely strong move, and i have 15 outs backing me up. however, as played, how are we not at least calling the turn pussy bet of .40? thats laying 10:1. i thought it looked "scared" so i jumped it w/ my outs backing me up. too aggressive? if so, why? please elaborate if you still think that thought process is really dumb because i need to fix that. i thought it was sending a huge message to bump better hands off and i had plenty of outs should i get called.

euph, i am buying in for 40 now. i just work it up to 50-60 rather easily.

I'm sorta mixing theories here, your buying in deeper than I do so I make that fold, where you have alot more implied odds left behind than I do.

I don't consider 60BB's short stacking in the sense fo getting AI alot. you have implied odds sitting behind, TPTK is ok to stack with in most cases, but you don't have odds to push/call AI with draws in 3bet pots. You even have odds to set farm against a single 4x preflop raise. I think 60 BB's should be played more straight up with just a few more AI's.

Your going to find yourself in more spots where you need to fold post flop with your stack sizes. I think your riding a line where you should play a shorter strategy or a full stacked strategy and i think full stack strategy applies more with yoru stacksizes.

as a result of you guys' advice, i have dropped my BI amount to 50, and in most cases recently to 40.

i want to run as parallel to you guys as i can because i want to be comparing apples to apples when i ask for advice.

assume i bought in for 40 from here on out. my problem is the frequency of which i have to top up once the blinds roll around or i miss a flop. i have to be rather anal about how often i top off my stack.

these will look like stupid questions, but the squeeze is a legit one. the AQ is just confirmation, but i dont want to miss good opportunities when i have no respect as a shorty.

i really wanted to squeeze here. original raiser had folded to 3bets before, and flat-caller likely has a pp. or do we just call and set hunt?

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($5.90)
UTG+1 ($1.75)
MP1 ($9.95)
MP2 ($19.75)
CO ($10.45)
BTN ($10.65)
Hero ($4.40)
BB ($14.40)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 8 players) Hero is SB
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.4, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.4, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.3, 3 players)
Hero bets $0.8, 2 folds

Final Pot: $1.30

Hero wins $2.05 ( won +$0.85 )
MP2 lost -$0.40
UTG+1 lost -$0.40


no reads, just want to know where to go here...i assume obv fold?


$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($4.45)
UTG+1 ($10.00)
MP1 ($9.40)
MP2 ($6.95)
MP3 ($9.40)
CO ($7.40)
BTN ($9.25)
SB ($1.90)
Hero ($4.50)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 9 players) Hero is BB
UTG raises to $0.5, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.5, 4 folds, Hero folds

Flop: ($1.15, 2 players)
UTG bets $1, 1 fold

Final Pot: $1.15

UTG wins $2.1 ( won +$0.6 )
MP2 lost -$0.50

this is more of a conceptual post...that i should have a better handle on, but dont.

we size our bets to push the turn. we set up with 40 bb's and 4X pfr, pot flop, and shove turn (with a full pot size behind). basically, 4X, 9X, 27X are our bet sizes in HU situations.

what i have noticed is that i only seem to get called by something that beats TPTK. i am not seeing people draw against me, think i am full of shit, or chase me with 2nd pair in the hole. now, that could all be variance, but it has me struggling with a concept.

if people arent calling us unless they have us beat, dont we have a good bit of FE? shouldnt we use that?

so, the question is: How do we calculate how often we need to take a pot down to be profitable? (good spot for the chart again, euph)

for instance, we whiff on a flushy flop, say... A 5 9 two hearts. we pot, get a caller. no apparent improvement on turn, so we shove. how often does that need to work to show profit? if we stick 27X into a 27X pot, villain has to call 27X into 54X...he is getting 2:1 on his call.

i guess what i want to know is...if we arent getting called by worse (than TPTK), should we start 2barrel shoving more turns? and, how often do we need to take the pot down to show profit vs the times we get called and obviously lose?

you dont need to to the math for me...its got to be just like calculating cbetting profitability on flops....just get me started in the right direction please.


all right. i think i got it. if we fire 27X into a 27X pot, we need it to work 50% of the time, not counting when we are actually ahead or catch our river card.

so, if we feel our villain will fold 25% of the time to our turn shove, we need only 25% pot equity?

we need our pot equity and our FE against this specific villain to total 51%+ to make money on the shove, yes?

I made a spreadsheet for this.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...J-Nm72KjFyqPWA

That link should work.

Here's how to read it:
if we put 27x into 27x and we figure we have around 30% equity when called, it is incredibly hard to be unprofitable. If villain calls 90% of the time (he wont) we break even. If he calls LESS than 90% of the time (so we have 10% or more folding equity) we profit big time.

This chart should show you one thing, its really, really hard to make mistakes with a 40bb stack.

link works fine. i knew you were Da Mang on that one. thanks.

but, i am super dumb when it comes to that stuff. first, i cant change the yellow boxes; although, i doubt i am supposed to be able to being that it's your program.

second, it looks to me like if WE have 30% equity, villain needs to call less than 30% for us to profit? the point where the 30%'s intersect has a value of 1.00. anything below that is negative.

help. and, its not the first time i've asked you...or that youve explained this to me....

shit thought you could change it. Obviously the numbers in the yellow boxes are not correct.

I'll just give you the answer and i'll figure out how to get you a copy later since im in a hurry...

If we have 30% equity, villain needs to call 90% of the time and we break even. If he calls less, free money :]

try this link

I do not gaurentee the math. You should always double check it.

spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=py4Un8Gq1J-Nm72KjFyqPWA&output=xls

if the effective stack is 40bb then the pot at showdown would be 80bb. We have 30% equity, so we'd get back .3*80 = 24bb from each shove. There is 27bb in our stack meaning a net loss of 3bb when called. When he folds, we win the 27bb in the pot. If the probability of him calling is x, then the probability of him NOT calling is 1-x.


-3x [when he calls] + 27(1-x) [when he folds] = 0

which is

-3x-27x+27 = 0

-30x + 27 = 0

30x = 27

27/30 = .9

We need villain to call less than 90% of the time.

Heres the problem with your example heh

We're UTG and we 4xbb (36bb left in stack)
villain calls from BTN, 9x in pot (SB got raked off)
We pot, our 9x and so we have 27 left and 18 in pot. We shove our 27 into 18.




(i dont know why I didnt put in 15% but did put 5, 10, and 20 in the chart. Oversight I guess)

further, I dont trust my charts to be deadly accurate. I really need to redo them. But the math isnt particularly hard to do by hand.

holy fuck. i love that explanation. and thanks for taking the time to draw out why.

i am one of those idiots that has no need for Office anymore. therefore, i dont have it. the Excel doc is of no use to me, at the moment. if i can find a copy from someone (in the family, not a solicitation...lol), we may be getting somewhere.

the way you shot that to me before? is there a way you can use 100NL (easy math) for the calcs of a $27 shove and reshoot it to me?

and, how do you/we adjust as we start building a stack. say to 50 bb's? 60 bb's? at what point, euph, do YOU leave the table?

and, as we were talking about before, with the ranges, are you cbetting like a monkey? flushy boards? 65%+? and, how often are you following through with whiffs and sticking the turn...for your FE? 50%? more?

when i started this idea, i didnt think it would get this complex, but i like it.

get openoffice

google it. Looking more and more, the chart isnt accurate. But i added a "put in the equity you want and i'll tell you the break even point" feature which is exactly accurate so the chart isnt particularly needed.

Those were 100nl. The $ sign should really say "BBs" but office can't handle that.

for the 27bb into 18bb with 30% equity we BE at 86%.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

We pot, our 9x and so we have 27 left and 18 in pot. We shove our 27 into 18.

lost me here. if we pot it on flop w/ 9x, yes, we have 27x left, and the pot is 18x...for now. when villain on button calls our 9x bet, pot becomes 27x before the turn.

i have been talking from this point on. when we are on the turn, and we shove 27x into 27x, how often do we need to be correct? you are saying we need 30% equity and villain to call less than 90%. i have 50% for B/E because we need to be correct 27 out of 54 times...w/o catching our card or being already ahead. (although i see your point...mine is just blanket math)

are we still on the same page? am i still wrong with my example?

basically, i am thinking of a time where we open in lp wide (say KTs). we pick up a caller, but we doubt he has AJ+, flop comes A X X. we pot flop when checked to, and he calls. we still dont think he's on the A...maybe he has 77, and floats. so, we dont need to be correct all that often to slam the turn w/o our cards, right? and, if we hit our K/Q on the turn, and we dont think villain is on the A, we are shoving anyway.

i guess that doesnt really matter, though, because if we arent made (at least one pair) by the turn, we dont have 30%...ever.

playing with pokerstove...it looks like we should never two barrel with just overs. we, however, often have around 30% if we have only one pair. even if villain has the overpair. say, 99 and villain has AT w/ a T on flop and Q on turn. we still have close to 30% and i dont think villain is calling our shove 75% of the time...much less 90%?

Your math for each street is wrong

Preflop: we 4x, villain calls. 9x in the pot.
Flop: We 9x, villain calls. 18x in the pot.
Turn: We shove our 27x into the pot, which is 18x.
Villain has to call 27x to win 18+27 = 45x, not 54x.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Your math for each street is wrong

Preflop: we 4x, villain calls. 9x in the pot.
Flop: We 9x, villain calls. 18x in the pot.
Turn: We shove our 27x into the pot, which is 18x.
Villain has to call 27x to win 18+27 = 45x, not 54x.

Uhh
Preflop = 9
Flop starts @ 9, you 9, they call 9 = 27?
turn starts @ 27, you bet 27 making 54 giving the opponent 2:1

Apparently you fogot 9 from the flop

yup ok im a donkey

Originally Posted by euphoricism

yup ok im a donkey

QFT
OBV
STD

Short stacking is a disease...lol jk.
Where ya been Chop???

Choppa took a break
he's AFK

Originally Posted by mike4066

Originally Posted by euphoricism

yup ok im a donkey

QFT
OBV
STD

You forgot LD0

dont worry......."i'll be baaaack."

just getting over some tilt issues that are looking more and more like variance/confidence. but, theres some post flop shit in there, too.

Originally Posted by Chopper

dont worry......."i'll be baaaack."

just getting over some tilt issues that are looking more and more like variance/confidence. but, theres some post flop shit in there, too.

WAT

all right. i've had some time, and taken a break from posting. but, i'm temporarily back....not that anyone should give a shit.

i have switched over to 6max limit for the past couple months. i LOVE it!! easy money.

i dont think i'm all that good, but players simply have a leak that can be easily exploited...THEY FOLD TOO MUCH. i have never been a LAGgy player, but when you fold too much, i'ma gonna betta.

here is a snippit of a thought i had. i cant catch you up completely on the past two months, but whatev. take this for what its worth...

i am making a massive mistake by telling anybody that a 6 may be unsustainable. once you start to say it, you start to believe it.

i honestly think that a 10 can be sustainable at the limits i play. and, WHO says it cant be sustainable at ANY level? why do we limit our thinking like that? it may take some really solid, mistake-free bludgeoning, but i think it can be done. i didnt want to sound out of touch when telling another player that i was running a 7, and thought it could continue. i wanted to retain a bit of humility. but, honestly, i shouldnt give a crap about what anybody thinks. its not like they pay my bills. lol. (another pfs line)

however, i have backed off of my 32/28 stuff a good bit lately. that was too aggressive to sustain for any real length. it may be great in spurts, but not for more than a week...and the cards kind of have to allow it to continue. i lost the feel, and was getting called down too much. when you get called down, its great if you hit cards on turns and rivers, but otherwise its pure spew. then, draws stop coming in and players call down with bottom pair against your AQ as overcards. sure, when you hit the Q, you win, but it doesnt happen but one in about eight times. so, most of the time, its spewy if they arent going to fold, which is where the reads really become important.

i am back to about 24/16. i would like to get the 16 closer to 20, but i havent received much on the button lately. and, cant raise K9s with 3 limpers like i would if there were only one softy or no one in already...and i am not throwing it away in a 3way pot. so, that type of variance hurts my preflop raise %. i also dont raise AXs from UTG or MP anymore. i limp and hope to call a raise with them. so, that enlarges that gap, too.

then, there's been a relative absence of premiums. i seem to be ok with AK/AQ and the other big broadways like KJ. but, QQ+ have eluded me quite a bit lately. and, i've had a hard time finding the right spots to jump in with 22-99, too. so, that hurts any set-hunting i could do to balance myself out...not that you set-hunt in limit games.

all that said, i still find a player or two at most tables that fold too much. and, most of them just call all three streets, but i need cards for those guys. i had a hand the other day where i bet the river w/ 44...knowing the villain would call with A high. talk about your "thin value." and, the beauty is i did it on purpose! the next hand, i bet three streets of thin value again with 66 and he called the river with a missed draw. once you find those guys, they are easy to play. but, it takes a few orbits to figure out who is who.

i also found a table this week that poured money into my pockets. they folded everything. so, i got back to the bludgeoning i like to do. i was stealing rivers against 2 and 3 players at a time because i knew there was a good chance they would all fold...in some cases better hands. there's no way you can be good when your flush draw misses leaving you T-high with T7s in a 3 way pot. i had to have blown something that paired out. thats when the game is fun....when you fire the river and watch them fold to your crap. it really does make you giggle and call them "stupid" under your breath. i find myself muttering "you dumbass" a lot. it keeps me in a good mood for some reason. lol.

cheers.

Good to see you back Chop.

couple of fun things to post. stats and graphs. not that anyone much cares about crappy fixed limit poker, but its fun to run looser than i ever have and show profit.

however, the winrate has really calmed down as i continue to find the call stations. also came back to earth a bit with the flops, turns, and rivers i have been catching/missing. its easy to play a hand that improves on each street unbeknownst to your villains. its more difficult to get yourself out of bad spots you started by simply following through against a passive that folds most rivers, but raises them when he catches. that one sucks, fwiw.

oh, and the guy that cold calls your button raise from the sb when you are running 40/30 with AQ vs your AK when you flop your A and try and avoid giving free cards to the two clubs on the flop, but hits his Q on the turn, but never raises it even on the river...that guy really pisses me off. not that i'd fold to his turn raise, it just really pisses me off. lol.

suckouts are a big part of limit. i get that. they just suck when they come in bunches. and some really crazy ones, too. i can see AA getting cracked in a 4 way pot. thats no biggie. but, when you hold KJ and flop two pair, but realize the idiot likely has AQ when he raises the river T gets a bit rough to take. but, thats poker. it'll swing around so long as these guys keep playing that way.

anyway, enough of my variance and bitching. on to the stats...oh, and i may provide some hands for fun.

this will be ALL sites, not just Stars, as i bounce around. but, i will try and show how much my rate has cooled as time goes on. i just cant seem to keep the "bludgeoning" going. cant find the right spots as frequently as i was before. i must have been getting rather lucky with the chronic folders before.

REMEMBER: i am only playing 6max limit and two tables at a time. i am trying to focus on reads and raising when in doubt against those prone to folding too much. this has taken me 45ish days to build just this small sample. anything can still happen. i am in no way saying this sample is large enough to even consider. this is for fun, and to test some theories as i make a move to higher stakes...hopefully. but, after that start, it was hard to avoid getting really arrogant...lol. they were folding to everything, and playing back at me when i actually had something. that was fun!

[img][/img]

here is my start. definitely hot...
[img][/img]

here's the finish...definitely not...

[img][/img]

lets hope that last 5k hands was variance. }{ (fingers crossed)

the downer gets worse...

in case you dont know, i've come off my heater. this is something i both thought about and read that i thought i'd stick out here...in case someone is watching.


it seems there's no end in sight...for now. but, i read an article on "the long term." and, it really helped. i heard of downswings of 500BB+. one that really stuck out:

a guy said he has over 600k hands in a db. he said he is MUCH better the last 100k than his first 100k hands...duh. but, his winrate over the last 100k was smaller than his first 100k. he said, "dont underestimate the luck factor in this game...ever."

that comment stuck. i think he may be right. when you keep seeing Q3o suckout on you, or outflop you, it hurts. when you get AA capped only to find it rivered by a flush draw, it hurts. you start to think they can see your cards, or that the game is "rigged." rest assured, its probably not. its a game of long term decisions and short term luck...we all know that.

so, i checked my graph in BB's. i went on a super heater of 498 BBs up, and in a short time frame (5k hands). i am only on a 230 BB downswing (4k hands). its not much in those terms. so, i should quit bitching and just play the best i can. even with my leaks, if i cant beat .25/.50, i should just jump off the nearest bridge. i'm not that worried...long term.

Fnord said it best (i am paraphrasing even when i am using quotes here).

he described a live game where he was in repeated hands with the same player. that player looked to be aggressive. fnord says, "i never fold HU pots."

he called, and called, and called this guy. he continually picked off bluffs. he eventually told the guy, "in case you havent figured, i dont fold HU." of course, this sends the guy off on tilt, and he bluffed harder.

fnord kept calling.

i started doing this, w/o saying anything, in my 6max games. and, you know what? i dont get beat very often...even w/ Khi. most of the time, they check at some point, allowing me to know almost exactly where i stand, or they keep firing and i take pots away from the craziest shit with Ahi.

i had a hand yesterday where a chump 3bet my AK with 34s. i capped, and he donked a middle of the road flop. i was scared of draws/sets, but said, "fnord says not to fold." i never paired, and neither did he. i couldnt believe my eyes when i saw 34s. i noted him and took another 3 pots from him in the same fashion. dont get me wrong...there ARE times when it is obvious to fold (fnord may not, but i will). 45o as a BBspecial cant be good against a completing sb that fires all streets on a montone flop. he has to be at least 6hi...lol. which leads me back to my "rules of engagement..."

rule #6...dont fold when its HU preflop. if you have as little as a face card, call down or check behind, but dont fold.

these bluff-tards make it profitable...go figure. i will lose tons of pots unnecessarily doing this, eventually, but it's not like it costs me much. if i dont bet, he cant raise. if you think about it, calling down also DESTROYS your image to anyone paying attention. now, other players will think you are either a call station (and stop bluffing you so you can catch a ton of free cards) or start firing at you (because they see you showing down utter crap and think you suck). either way, you win by making them over/under play hands they shouldnt. in other words, all of a sudden, THEY START MAKING MISTAKES FOR NO REASON.

damn, that fnord is a genius sometimes.

here are the other rules of engagement...

rule #1...turn raises mean business. almost EVERY time. and tend to chill out when you get one in the face. if you have two pair beat, and nothing obvious is out there, you can stay a bit frisky. but, if the board is flushy, your straight isnt worth capping all streets with anymore.

rule #2...dont bet/raise like a monkey to blow others off a hand if you have no potential whatsoever. you need to have at least a backdoor combo draw, or mid pair to try and blow them out. you need outs to come to your rescue sometimes. dont go wild w/o outs. but, when you are going nuts, be aware of scare cards that dont help you whatsoever, but look like they helped something you are representing. (that last one is golden)

rule #3....dont fold the river in 10+BB pots for 1BB. if you bet and they raise, maybe thats a different version of "one more bet," but not for a check/call, or villain leading out and you calling.

rule #4...for pp's, just remember...5:1 preflop. and, dont take them too far postflop, unless you can get the pot HU against a player prone to bluff or 3barrel overcards.

rule #5...i see bluffs/draws raise flops and turns quite frequently, but i dont see them 3bet. 3betting is a real hand.

later