The Drive to $10K

This OP may take a while, as will reading the first post. I have a lot to get off my chest, and maybe I can have some clarity into my issues with some self confrontation or maybe I will point out something you guys may notice that I am missing.

I have made it known here on FTR that I have had some issues with tilt. I have somehow discovered some tilt issues that I had never had before. I mean I have always had the ability to tilt in the past, but it just was never the same. Back in time I would get angry for a little bit. Same as others, I would get mad at the fish that called preflop with some obscure hand and made some dumbass two pair or straight and stacked me. That's nothing. We all learn to lose that feeling, and we all learn that it's exactly what we want the fish to do. Even the sun shines on a dogs ass once in a while. Those feelings are long behind me. Now it's about something more.

Let me back track. I went "Pro" back in August of 07. Not pro, like killing the game and making a great living type pro. "Pro", like my only income "Pro". I had a $3K bankroll and some of it was borrowed. Which has not been paid off yet in full. This was not recommended by almost all of FTR. I on the other hand was laid off and thought, "meh, I'll give it a shot". I grinded the hell out of it. Long story short. I learned how to smoke the small stakes. It went like this, withdraw $1000 and have enough to play $50NL. Grind up, withdraw $1K again and start the month at $50NL or $25NL or wherever I was with what I had left. Grind it up again, Withdraw.

I never got above $100NL, and I was never still rolled (25BI's) for $100NL after I withdrew. I did this until February of 08. $1K a month, about $1K for xmas and whatever else I took out. I finally went back to work in March and withdrew everything but $300. This is where it starts. Yep, starts! Until the time I was laid off, money meant squat. I made enough money. So my BR was my BR and I was content with learning and playing.

Fast forward, I grinded up the $300 or so to $4K in September and took a shot at $200NL thinking I had my game in order and lost about $2K before moving down. I made some adjustments. I got some coaching from a couple people, and had the best month ever on record in November and posted my fist $1K day playing $200NL and really not having any problems with the game. Then this problem that has become the source for this OP reared it's head for the first time. I started to lose, not just a bit, but a lot and non stop. If you missed the December graph or missed the tilt post in the SH strat forum here it is. It's awful to look at. Now I am losing more than I could by playing with my cards covered witha post it note. I lost $5K playing the first half month at $200NL (15BI's) and then half the month at $100NL(20BI's)over 41K hands. I guess that's the benefit of playing overrolled and having a good bonus, RB and other incentives as well. I came out of that month barely rolled for $100NL.

So I came out of the month with a new outlook. Time to start playing less, and studying more. I need to catch up on a lot of the things I have not been doing well including hand ranges, hand reading and a bunch of EV calculation practice. And while doing this I am kind of getting back into the rhythm and get my roll back up to respectable levels but am having issues with my other goals and decide to talk to ISF about some coaching in that area since he is the ISF of ISF theorem. We spent about 45 mins talking about other things of which have nothing to do with poker per se, and I spend the next day reading a ton of material about my study habits and my learning needs. AHA moment! And I proceed to run well from the 15K hands mark when I talked to him until the 23K hand mark in this graph. and it all starts to fall apart at thee 23K hand mark and here we are. I posted about my tilt issues here http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es-t81158.html so I won't go over that here.

So what's this all about? Time to get some responsibility for my actions. The best I ran was as a member of the $100K poker club about a year and a half ago, I was posting about my game everyday. It was about my game, what was I doing about it, and where was I going? What were my goals? they were posted for all the members to read. It's dissolved now. Now I just grind. I withdraw. I grind and move up or down depending on BR, mood and tables availability and withdrawals pending.



So What is the goal of this long winded and probably confusing first post. Figure out a "Stop Loss". Learn to stop the huge downswings caused by me no doubt. My winrate is fine. At $100NL and under I can beat the game soundly. At $200NL I don't see anything hard about the game. It's the money. It's not a lot of money, it's just that I use the money. I like withdrawing, and buying things for my family. I may need to withhold the withdrawing for a bit until I get a handle on this. So here goes...

Stop playing after 3 BI's lost in a night.
Stop playing after 1K hands if I am down or even.
Drop down if I have 2 multi BI losing sessions in a row, until I string together two multi BI sessions in a row.
Plan to take off some nights in the week.
Play less hands.

All of this is about my short, deep losing downswings. I need to stop the bleeding. I sometimes play too long, too often and too late. Getting behind has never slowed me down, as long as the game is good an I can see where my money is coming from. But I need to take rests, for the mind and body. I am sure a lot of this ties in with fatigue, stress and who knows what else I have going on. Wife, kid, job and playing poker every night after they go to bed has got to be taxing. I am the last one in bed every night, and the first one up. I have had multi nights where I have played past 1am in a week, including this week, and have been really off my game. Not just at the tables but at work and home. I need to be fresh, fit and ready to play. Short, sweet and to the point with my game. Starts tonight. 1K hands, $100NL. That's all.

Let me know what you think. I will be moving in April, and have promissed to pay for the movers and all the bills with my BR. So I need $10K by then, hence the OP name. No rush, just don't donk the roll.

Using just my iPoker cash I have $2630, down from $5500 on Thursday. That will be my starting roll. moneybookers, stars, FT and NoIQ cash doesn't count. It's fall back and incidentals money.

firsttttt

gl man, I hope you figure out these tilt issues and everything comes together!

Rooting for ya hard, man.

Originally Posted by jyms

My winrate is fine. At $100NL and under I can beat the game soundly. At $200NL I don't see anything hard about the game. It's the money. It's not a lot of money, it's just that I use the money. I like withdrawing, and buying things for my family. I may need to withhold the withdrawing for a bit until I get a handle on this. So here goes...

have you thought about sticking to 100nl for a lot longer? You can make real money at 100nl (enough to withdraw and buy cool stuff ), the downswings/tilt impacts - if they hit - are less material, and eventually you'll end up heavily rolled for 200nl anyway. And when you're playing heavily rolled, the risk of tilt seems less.

Something I've noticed over the last two months is counter-intuitive, but interesting. When I play well, I win. So I try to win more. I start thinking, "I can beat this game soundly, I'm good post-flop". Instead of continuing with the style that wins me money, I start to loosen up my game, look for more spots, try and play too many pots vs fish, iso more, 3/4 bet more, pay less attention to position, etc. And then I start to lose. Any chance you're falling into this same trap?

I'm glad that i've noticed this now, while I'm still comfortably rolled for the games I'm playing and I'm not relying on poker income.

Originally Posted by jyms

Stop playing after 3 BI's lost in a night.
Stop playing after 1K hands if I am down or even.
Drop down if I have 2 multi BI losing sessions in a row, until I string together two multi BI sessions in a row.
Plan to take off some nights in the week.
Play less hands.

. I have had multi nights where I have played past 1am in a week, including this week, and have been really off my game. Not just at the tables but at work and home. I need to be fresh, fit and ready to play. Short, sweet and to the point with my game. Starts tonight. 1K hands, $100NL. That's all.

I think that rules like these are a good idea for you (based on the rest of your post) at the moment. Is it also worth thinking about why the listed things result in bad play and tilt? Spoon and others have posted loads on this stuff over the past year.

the second para is important. When poker starts to -vely affect the rest of life, something needs to be done. You know about training/coaching - think about all the things that sportspeople should do before a big event/game. Basically stuff to make sure they're in shape to 1) perform well & 2) prevent risk of injury
With poker, your mental and emotional state are your keys to performing well, and your awareness of bankroll and tilt management (e.g. the listed stop-loss stuff above) are your injury prevention.

Originally Posted by jyms

Using just my iPoker cash I have $2630, down from $5500 on Thursday. That will be my starting roll. moneybookers, stars, FT and NoIQ cash doesn't count. It's fall back and incidentals money.

74 buyins in three months. Good luck, I hope you make it. Even more, I hope that you stick to everything listed above - and suffer no crazy-monkey-tilt issues! If that happens the $$ will inevitably follow.

Your post was interesting to me as I'm down a bunch on the tables this year, breakeven cos of rakeback/bonuses. Which is crap. Cos it means that the rakeback and bonuses aren't the free EXTRA money they should be....

hope that wasn't way too long-winded for ya
davenout

Thanks for taking the time to read it guys.

Daven, How can it be too long winded after reading what I wrote. I have to find the source of the tilt since I know enough about it not to be getting caught up in it. It could be fatigue, it could be mental state. I know that overrolled is where I want to be since I always am and I like it better. I do watch HM too much when downswinging which certainly makes my play worse because I am losing concentration and splitting my focus with HM and the tables.

FPS is definitly something I need to address as well. I make a lot of the bad mistakes like overbet bluff shoving when a standard bet will do. I tend to over think and underplay my big hands when behind trying to hard to get paid and I know better. Just a lot of 1st level thinking wehn running bad.

Session starts in 10 mins so lets get it on!

Hide the sharp instruments.

jyms i understand your tilt issue i think and unfortunatly i have no straight anwser on how cure it. I struggle with tilt to but never have made or lost as much as you have online. Live i have at the casino but never online. I think you have great ideas on how to control it. This is just a suggestion but maybe instead of stopping all together just drop limits. If your playing 100nl and crushing it for 5 days then you sit on the sixth day and blow 2 BI but still want to keep playing drop to 50nl or even 25nl just for the night. That may help............I just turn my computer off now and go punch my punching bag if i catch such a bad one where i'm about to go NUTSSSSSSS. LOL. You could also play like a $5-25 MTT or something like that while in one of these swings. But like i said i just turn the shit off and do something else. GL on your mission and if you crushing the 100nl then its only a matter of time before you start crushing 200nl. Keep it positive...........

Thanks.

I just want to clarify that I don't get angry when I tilt. I ain't no Tuff Fish. I just lose control of my game. I start playing passive. I start seeing the worse in every board when holding pairs and lose my aggression. I start calling too much. I start trying to get to showdown instead of fold.

this ain't no freaking out and breaking things kinda tilt.

Originally Posted by jyms

I just want to clarify that I don't get angry when I tilt. I ain't no Tuff Fish.

But you can't deny that you sound exactly like him

GL dude!

Originally Posted by daven

Something I've noticed over the last two months is counter-intuitive, but interesting. When I play well, I win. So I try to win more. I start thinking, "I can beat this game soundly, I'm good post-flop". Instead of continuing with the style that wins me money, I start to loosen up my game, look for more spots, try and play too many pots vs fish, iso more, 3/4 bet more, pay less attention to position, etc. And then I start to lose. Any chance you're falling into this same trap?

Interesting, you know, I think I have the same issue. The most I've crushed 6-max has been playing like a 17-12 or sometimes even tighter game. Then I start listening to folks saying how I should be doing at least 20-15 and up to 25-20 and I start to think thats where the real money is then lose it (also one reason I'm mixing in more FR, my natural game is fairly nitty anyway, in fact I seem to be aggressive there).


Some interesting points there Jyms. I have to admit I've had trouble figuring how you got all your hands in. I think 12-13k hands is my best month and we play about the same number of tables and that was probably playing a fair bit for me. You get like triple that in. GL sorting this stuff out man.

Originally Posted by jyms

I just lose control of my game. I start playing passive. I start seeing the worse in every board when holding pairs and lose my aggression. I start calling too much. I start trying to get to showdown instead of fold.

this ain't no freaking out and breaking things kinda tilt.

When you recognize that you aren't playing your normal game, have you tried dropping down to a level that you hammer , get your game back to where you normally have it for half an hour or so and then move back up with the confidence you've just boosted.

GL on your opp jyms!

Originally Posted by jyms

Stop playing after 3 BI's lost in a night.
Stop playing after 1K hands if I am down or even.
Drop down if I have 2 multi BI losing sessions in a row, until I string together two multi BI sessions in a row.
Plan to take off some nights in the week.
Play less hands.

Just something to add to this that makes me feel better:
When I try to move up I set myself a lower BR to move down. This would allow me to move down early and still have plenty of buy-ins for a lower level.

id say you should def 4get about 200nl for the time being.

GL jym. Wish I had some great advice but I think you've got enough. It'll be interesting to watch, hope you hit your goals.

I´m stunned by how much of your tilt post in the SHNL and the OP here sounds like whats happening on my end of the internet. Seems to be a common situation among small stakes grinders here.

GL man, I´ll be checking this with interest.

Originally Posted by griffey24

firsttttt

gl man, I hope you figure out these tilt issues and everything comes together!

Thanks man, you helped a ton last night.

Originally Posted by kmind

Rooting for ya hard, man.

Thanks

Originally Posted by RoyalProdigy

jyms i understand your tilt issue i think and unfortunatly i have no straight anwser on how cure it. I struggle with tilt to but never have made or lost as much as you have online. Live i have at the casino but never online. I think you have great ideas on how to control it. This is just a suggestion but maybe instead of stopping all together just drop limits. If your playing 100nl and crushing it for 5 days then you sit on the sixth day and blow 2 BI but still want to keep playing drop to 50nl or even 25nl just for the night. That may help............I just turn my computer off now and go punch my punching bag if i catch such a bad one where i'm about to go NUTSSSSSSS. LOL. You could also play like a $5-25 MTT or something like that while in one of these swings. But like i said i just turn the shit off and do something else. GL on your mission and if you crushing the 100nl then its only a matter of time before you start crushing 200nl. Keep it positive...........

Thanks, Shutting it off has always been too tough, but I am gonna try.

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

Originally Posted by jyms

I just want to clarify that I don't get angry when I tilt. I ain't no Tuff Fish.

But you can't deny that you sound exactly like him

GL dude!

Thanks a lot.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Some interesting points there Jyms. I have to admit I've had trouble figuring how you got all your hands in. I think 12-13k hands is my best month and we play about the same number of tables and that was probably playing a fair bit for me. You get like triple that in. GL sorting this stuff out man.

Yea, I play a ton. Everyday pretty much. Which is fine when it's my down time, but when it becomes an issue and then I have no downtime doing anything else and things go horrible in every way.

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

When you recognize that you aren't playing your normal game, have you tried dropping down to a level that you hammer , get your game back to where you normally have it for half an hour or so and then move back up with the confidence you've just boosted.

This is one of my new stop loss plans. We'll see how it goes.

Originally Posted by jimmy44

GL on your opp jyms!

Just something to add to this that makes me feel better:
When I try to move up I set myself a lower BR to move down. This would allow me to move down early and still have plenty of buy-ins for a lower level.

This is something I do at a new stake or new site. But I have beat the games, and can see that I can beat the game, so it's tough to jump when it could just be variance. But I do have to leave when it's me and not the cards.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

id say you should def 4get about 200nl for the time being.

Afraid I will leave you in the dust? I am done until I fix this issue for sure.

Originally Posted by allabout

GL jym. Wish I had some great advice but I think you've got enough. It'll be interesting to watch, hope you hit your goals.

Thanks man.

Originally Posted by XTR1000

I´m stunned by how much of your tilt post in the SHNL and the OP here sounds like whats happening on my end of the internet. Seems to be a common situation among small stakes grinders here.

GL man, I´ll be checking this with interest.

Yea, we talked about it. Hit me up on AIM if you have any questions once I start to figure it out.

+$20.11
$2673


Ok so not a great night money wise but definitely a step in the right direction. was up like $80 until the last couple orbits, got set over setted by a shorty and flush over flush on a four flush board vs A high by another half stack. It's good though since we know we want shorties playing these brutal hands OOP and getting it in with draws.

With some help by griffey I noticed that my stats are way off as far as aggression and WTSD% this month. I know where I would like them to be so I have to watch and see if this is a chicken/egg situation. Am I playing these stats and causing these losses or is the tilt effecting my stats which I think is probably the issue. It would help if all I have to do is watch a few stats to see that the tilt is coming back. Certain plays are coinciding with these long drops in BI's and if I can avoid them, I can maybe avoid multi BI losses in such a short amount of hands.

Brutal night last night. Mentally I was fine, I just couldn't get anything started. I forced it a bit and lost a couple buy ins trying to force folds. I know better than this and have to correct it.

3 things to watch. WTSD%, it was high last night again at 33%. I know it's a small sample (831 hands) but it's a problem for me, so I need to be wary. AF, last night was a solid 3.71 so NP there. I think this number relies on sample size the least since position and board textures and betting has to do with their hands, stats and ranges so I can never lame this on on sample. And lastly, 3bet call%. I spew in this department. Particularly right after moving down. I have to realize that the BB value is different than the $$ value, and not call and play postflop just because it's $8 more to go and I have an edge. I need to 4bet/fold WAY more, mostly fold.

-$353 used my stop loss when I seen I was below 3BI's. I am trying not to look at HM too often anymore so I missed the actual 3rd BI.

$2329

If anyone wants me I will be out on the ledge




assume these are all fish and why I play like an idiot

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($100)
CO ($119.95)
Button ($179.35)
SB ($212.95)
BB ($352.40)
Hero (UTG) ($156.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K
Hero raises $3.50, 4 folds, BB calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.50) 4, 3, 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $7.50, BB raises $15, Hero calls $7.50

Turn: ($37.50) 7 (2 players)
BB bets $18.75, Hero raises $138.40 (All-In), BB calls $119.65

River: ($314.30) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $314.30

Results:
BB had 3, 2 (two pair, threes and twos).
Hero had K, K (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: BB won $311.30





No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($170.90)
SB ($102.60)
BB ($100)
UTG ($207.10)
Hero (MP) ($144.32)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, K
UTG raises $3, Hero raises $10.50, 3 folds, UTG calls $7.50

Flop: ($22.50) 10, 2, 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $17, UTG raises $34, Hero calls $17

Turn: ($90.50) 9 (2 players)
UTG bets $28, Hero raises $73, UTG raises $90, Hero calls $26.82 (All-In)

River: ($290.14) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $290.14

Results:
UTG had 10, 10 (full house, tens over twos).
Hero had J, K (flush, King high).
Outcome: UTG won $305.32


No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($136.90)
UTG ($173.25)
MP ($98.50)
CO ($199.75)
Button ($232.70)
Hero (SB) ($112.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, 9
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, CO raises $3, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.50, BB calls $2, UTG calls $2

Flop: ($12) 10, J, 3 (4 players)
Hero bets $12, BB calls $12, 2 folds

Turn: ($36) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $29, BB calls $29

River: ($94) J (2 players)
Hero bets $47, BB raises $92.90 (All-In), Hero calls $21.25 (All-In)

Total pot: $230.50

Results:
Hero had 8, 9 (straight, Jack high).
BB had 3, 3 (full house, threes over Jacks).
Outcome: BB won $252.15


No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($94.35)
Button ($124.80)
SB ($145.80)
BB ($171.55)
Hero (UTG) ($129.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8, 8
Hero raises $3.50, MP calls $3.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($8.50) 4, J, 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $8.50, Hero raises $34, MP calls $25.50

Turn: ($76.50) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $38, MP calls $38

River: ($152.50) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $18.85 (All-In), Hero calls $18.85

Total pot: $190.20

Results:
Hero had 8, 8 (three of a kind, eights).
MP had 6, K (flush, King high).
Outcome: MP won $187.20




I know, sorry, this ain't supposed to be a bad beat thread. I am absolutely pissed at myself for doing exactly what this OP is supposed to be about. Stop losses. Even when sitting at the tables with bad players that call 3 bets with garbage. I was totally out of the poker mindset for the last $600

It's not pretty. I had a $5500 BR on the 20th of January. I now have $1400

This makes me sad.
Take a break. Seriously dude...take a break. Its the only advice i have right now..but its solid. You need to stop thinking about poker for a while, clear your head and come back fresh whenever you feel your ready. But right now..poker aint the best thing for u to be doing.
Play golf and go out with your mates/family and stuff. Just Have fun and don't think about poker for a while.

ok, i know i don't play 6-max. But... I'm not sure if you want hand comments, so I'll keep it brief.
hand 1: after the flop cr and turn lead his range crushes yours. Call turn if you want, but don't shove.
hand 2: beats suck huh, damn fish hitting their ten-outers
hand 3: is river for value?
hand 4: I'd need reads to play flop like that. After that, just get it all in on the turn, and stop running bad

Originally Posted by jyms

I was totally out of the poker mindset for the last $600

yep, stick to the op!!!

Originally Posted by jyms

not pretty. I had a $5500 BR on the 20th of January. I now have $1400

move down, ages ago.

Thats brutal Jyms .

You really gotta get strict about your stop loss, only way I can see it working.

This may not seem like much but I fucking love you man, if you need anything at all don't hesitate to ask. You will get through this and have a fucking awesome time rereading this in the near future seeing how you quickly you moved up from this downswing.

Hang on in there jyms!!

Originally Posted by jimmy44

Hang on in there jyms!!

It'll be "the rocket to 10k" b4 ya know it

I wont fold #1 vs fish

#2 def fold turn

#3 tilts the living shit out of me, when these fuckers slowplay their sets no turns on somewhat dry boards. I usually 3b or fold pre like 20/80, don´t lead into 3 and when Im leading Im making it 8ish.

#4 I make plays like this everytime Im tilting. I dont mind checkraising midpairs on less wet boards vs the bet-when-checked-to guys and vs regs to protect my c/f´ing range.

Hang on man. Stick to your stop loss and reread this OP when your swinging up again. Hit me up anytime for a sweat or talking some poker.

Jesus Jyms, I feel your pain.

Fuck all pokah advise I could give you but I'll ship you some good Karma, see if it helps any

Your the peoples champion bro, hang on in there!

god damn, gotta drop to 50nl??

When life is beautiful, I have clarity at the tables. When life is wobbly, I could fuck up a flopped full house. Maybe it's life, not poker?

Anyway, I got no advice. Just wish this shit would go away for you. I'm rooting for you. You have been an inspiration to me for more than a year. I have learned a ton from you. Fight through it, and we'll all be right here to congratulate you on 10k in a couple months.

Thanks guys. One thing that bothers me is that if you look at my graph I am grinding upwards almost effortlessly. If you see the stack sizes in those hands, you can see I build stacks. I am having issues it seems with the bigger pots. Overvaluing TP and overpair hands. Not believing river bets and raises. I need to really pay more attention through the bigger streets to the ranges and how the river effects that range,. I think when I am not getting paid on my big hands, I start to do what XTR1K has said before, i start thinking with bigger hands that it's my money so it's not just the losses I feel I've lost but the wins where I think I am losing by not getting what's mine. It forces me to push with less and less looking for those dollars I should have earned.

I am sure the word is out in peoples notes too that I will pay off light, because I really am calling too many shoves and raises late in the hand. And they seem to be shoving on me fairly easily or calling pre and on the flop with pretty speculative hands getting great implied odds for sure.

Wow jyms I'm on the edge of my seat and am looking forward to your future post. The ones that take you through the roof. Were the nuts are raining down on you like a cow pissing on a flat rock. Those days are coming real soon my friend just hang in there and keep it all in perspective.

GL Jyms. I think you and I have a lot of the same problems concerning tilt control and FPS.

Hang in there man. I feel your pain as I have had two 10 buy-in downswings in the last 2 weeks... those hands you posted could easily be mine.

I am working on the same stuff you are.. stopping when you hit a couple buy-in downswing fast early in the session to refocus.

Today I let things get out of control and dropped a quick 10 buy-ins.. I took a break and played with my 2 year old for awhile then came back. I decided I would not stack off unless I thought I had the nuts or near nuts.. made some huge laydowns, but still managed to get 9 buy-ins back in an hour and a half.

Just remember, you make the majority of your money on the big hands, playing position, cbetting etc.. I feel I need to swallow my pride and lay down what may be the best hand a lot more than I'd think to or want to to play my A game.

Reread Ilikeaces guide again.. I think it was rule #5 that is key for me.

I'm not saying play like a wimp.. but make sure you focus your agression in the right spots at the right times.

Keep pluggin' away and remember, "piss on luck"

O

No, I agree. It's not playing like a wimp and I could earn a lot more by laying down the better hand once in a while if meant a lot more folds in soon to be big pots with TP type hands. The combination of not wanting to fold a best hand to a bluff and having little respect for a lot of the people taking some of these big pots with bad hands is something that needs to be worked on. What would make me more tilted, laying down aces to a huge amount of aggression vs a fish, or losing more than a buy in to a fish with Aces when he has 32o

I'm thinking more folding.

Originally Posted by jyms

I could earn a lot more by laying down the better hand once in a while if meant a lot more folds in soon to be big pots with TP type hands.

I can relate. I have this deep phobia of laying down the best hand. Gets me in trouble a lot.

GLGLGL. I'm glad you're keeping up the blog, even tho' some of your poker life sucks. I'm certain the turn-around will happen. The night is always darkest just before dawn.

Keep the fold button to your heart Jyms.

Sorry about your run.But im just going to give my opinion,even if it was stated already.Its alright to "be bluffed" once in a while,even though you think you have the best hand.I would rather save my stacks,than making the mistake of calling shove when you just dont believe the person has it.

I used to not respect big bets,min raise and c/r and shove river bets.That has cause me a dip in my BR last month.

So,big bets and shove ......folding!!!!!

Take a break.It would help.

Yea, my problem is I can do almost anything to try and fix this, but taking breaks will not work. I just can't not think that every minute at the tables is costing me time and money to get this back on track. My brain won't rest until I get back up. I stopped work today for half an hour and went and read some of ryan fees booklet and had a coffee because I couldn't stop thinking about it all day. Small breaks I can handle, but what the fuck am I gonna do, watch American idol?

Fuck this, look out iPoker I am taking your money or bust. Bet on the former.

Keep your shit together jyms. The money is going to come rolling in soon!

Awww man! I was going to play 100nl FR for the first time, but now you made me scurred with your graphs and all...

If you don't like the idea of just leaving poker for what it is for awhile and focus on something completely different, why not play 50nl for some time until you feel confident and/or refreshed to beat up the current stakes you're playing at? Just do something different for now, maybe even play PLO or learn another game. Then, when your head is clear again, go focus on fixing some leaks and bust those fishies until they end up buying in with their last pennies one by one! (and stack-a-reg along the way)

GL

Oh, and kudos for not being destructive during all this, would only add to the downswing when you have to keep buying new monitors and replastering the walls.

Been thinking about this, knowing the players you play and having played with you. I cant help but suspect part of your problem is that you know these guys are so bad you keep chasing your losses, even though you have a stoploss. What about taking up a version of Fnords approach? Once you're down 2 buyins you try to win 1 back. If you drop one more (or even half a buying) THEN you quit. Kind of gives you permission to chase your losses a little bit, but still with a saftey net for quitting?

Jymssss, you'll turn this around, I can feel it! Good reads!

KJcc hand, I don't see much value in 3betting an UTG open with this hand. It also plays much better in a single raised pot.

88 hand - I don't really get c/ring this board. You're gonna get shipped a ton, and I don't think you can call it off. As played, just shove the turn.

Looks like you got coolered quite a bit, and sucked out quite a bit Things will turn!

Ouch

At a loss for words man.

How's your small pot game?

Go back to your day job and make poker a hobby again?

Been like 3 months or so since I've played online. Live games are great and I don't think the online economy will fair well barring new legislation.

Id really strongly recommend some mental game coaching. I use Jared Tendler from stoxpoker and he has been a huge help to my game and just general outlook on life. He isnt cheap, but I know that he has a good amount of videos available which would be very helpful to your game. Check him out.

Originally Posted by jyms

Yea, my problem is I can do almost anything to try and fix this, but taking breaks will not work. I just can't not think that every minute at the tables is costing me time and money to get this back on track. My brain won't rest until I get back up.

Fuck this, look out iPoker I am taking your money or bust. Bet on the former.

JYMS! Pull yourself together.

Yea thanks for the support guys. I dropped to $50NL and it took me a couple buyins to adjust to the even poorer play but the money felt kinda soft. My concern here is that I tend to clal bets too often becasue of the price. I focused in on BB's and not $ figures and played ok. Some small mistakes like thinking they are playing back at me when really they just wait for a hand. I think I am playing better on the turn and river which is where I lose focus.

I mentioned that it's my big pot game giving me issues. Fnord asked about my small pot game. If you guys look at any of my graphs they are all small pots making profits and then one or two big losses wiping them out and dropping me. There are not a lot of small losses and big wins. I get it in too light. I make some bad bluffs with little or no equity and think that my FE will cover the losses but no chance.

BJ, your right that I chase what I feel is my money with guys that are unquestionably bad. What I need to learn again is that I will get their money and not force it. It's ok to open a little vs a 50/15 when he limps, but getting stacked w/TPNK vs a brutal 2pair is no excuse when they will stack off with TPMK. I can't give them reason to double and leave.

Andy, I agree. I think it's almost all mental. These huge falls in my graphs are not just variance or playing bad. I am sure we could go through the hands I have played over this swing and pick out a ton of bad plays. If we posted them under somebody else's name I could easily point out what they did wrong, and that tells me I am mentally off. My thinking gets skewed, and i become very machine like in just calling and frustration makes me just keep calling because"They just can't have it everytime". As for getting some coaching, it'll have to wait, since I basically blew the BR on this last swing and certainly since following the same $5K problem in December. I have spoken to ISF about my study habits, Griffey has been talking to me about some situations I am getting myself into at the tables and I am trying to talk this through for now. I have that page by Alexos that I am trying to wrap my head around and I have tow vids from DC on tilt by Studentcaine that are supposed to be pretty good.

right now my only concern is turning this around and not dealing with the issues. If I go back to winning and don't figure out both the triggers and how to stop it, it will happen again. So I will focus on the emotional parts for now in this op and not my play.

My month in a nutshell

It's not pretty but I think there is a lot I can take away from this.

Like:
-I win more sessions than I lose.
-If I had a stop loss, I would probably have won this month and not lost.
-The month was not as bad as thought because I actually lost $2500 of the profits I had made at the beginning of the month. But I can't forget that I still had a $5K downswing from my play.

Playing hands and grinding out a decent winrate is easy enough for me. I should be able to even make a decent amount just by earning a measly 4BB/100 and getting RB. I can guarantee that I would have had even more hands this month if not for the tilt issues. I play too much when tilting and losing but I can play even more when playing well and winning.

Goals for February. 5BB/100 over 35K hands at $100NL . I will edit my BR link when my RB goes through. I should be looking at a $1K or so deposit from that. My goal is to play $50NL until then at about 10BB/100. I know these rates can fluctuate short term, but I actually think they will slow me down knowing how little this actually is when you look at the longer term. 10BB/100 at $50NL is less than 2.5BB an orbit once you deduct the blinds.


Things to look at when playing.

-Don't check/call without a damn good reason, and it better be good
-take time to make decisions, particularly when I've been 3bet, raised on the river and before C betting and 2barreling.
-Pay less attention to HM graphs during play and just watch the report window once in a while if you feel you may be nearing the stop loss point.
-Play a lot less tricky. It's stupid to complain about them calling you down with TPNK or 2nd pair on a flopped mono board and then make plays when you have monsters like trying to induce bluffs or raises, checking behind or C/shoving flops.
-NO MORE OUTRITE BLUFFING. They don't like to fold much, so I have to have more equity Cbetting wet flops and or turns when 2barrel semi bluffing. I can't over estimate my FE.

Good luck, jyms. Keep working hard and talking to the right people and you'll definitely reach your goals. This is a great thread - you have so much support here on FTR!

Originally Posted by jyms

Goals for February. 5BB/100 over 35K hands at $100NL .

IF I were you, I'd lay off the monetary goals. You are putting undue pressure upon yourself. Remember, poker will never agree with you, and will forever keep trying to fuck you.

This may be of good aid to you:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-36111.htm

Wow Jack, a Euph reference? He will be happy.

I kid. I get what you are saying and I did mention this.

Originally Posted by jyms

Goals for February. 5BB/100 over 35K hands at $100NL . I will edit my BR link when my RB goes through. I should be looking at a $1K or so deposit from that. My goal is to play $50NL until then at about 10BB/100. I know these rates can fluctuate short term, but I actually think they will slow me down knowing how little this actually is when you look at the longer term. 10BB/100 at $50NL is less than 2.5BB an orbit once you deduct the blinds.

But I do get what you are saying and I am hoping that shooting for that will allow me not to try and get it all back at once.

I check/call and check/raise a lot online because off the TAgg bots bet a lot.

Yea, I'd agree that C/C is great vs people that will fire light or fire often. I jsut need to have a reason and letting TAGG's "bet in their spots" is obviously a reason, but C/C a 1.1 AF is absolutely off. C/R once in a while vs some of the more aggro guys can certainly give you a chance to see more free streets late in the session when your playing deeper vs LAGGs and they love TP.

Originally Posted by jyms

Things to look at when playing.

-Don't check/call without a damn good reason, and it better be good
-take time to make decisions, particularly when I've been 3bet, raised on the river and before C betting and 2barreling.
-Pay less attention to HM graphs during play and just watch the report window once in a while if you feel you may be nearing the stop loss point.
-Play a lot less tricky. It's stupid to complain about them calling you down with TPNK or 2nd pair on a flopped mono board and then make plays when you have monsters like trying to induce bluffs or raises, checking behind or C/shoving flops.
-NO MORE OUTRITE BLUFFING. They don't like to fold much, so I have to have more equity Cbetting wet flops and or turns when 2barrel semi bluffing. I can't over estimate my FE.

I think this is not going to help you. As someone who has gone through some bad stretches before, over analyzing in specific spots is not good. I think that your mindset to playing may be off right now. You have to remember that poker is a long term game, and that you need to make +EV decisions in the short term so that it will show a profit in the long term. If the most +EV decision is to make a naked bluff, to check to induce a bluff, or to double or triple barrel with air, then that is what you should be concerned with.

I think that the 88 hand from above is a good example of a hand you didn't think through. Are you normally c/ring flops as the pfr? If so then why are you c/ring someone who is cold calling Kxs from MP? Then you skittle the turn and you bet half the pot, but you only left ~$19 for the river? Why leave so little left?

Also be more patient.

Yea, your right. I am actually closing doors but I just feel like i should shut a bunch and then find the spots I need to open them up. I need to get more specific with everything I do and not make plays for the sake of making plays. I probably don't go into enough details when typing this stuff out, but I think I make most of the mistakes I mention without reads or having a reason. The 88 hand was actually a read that he would call with a ton of Ax hands on the flop and any naked FD. I figured to be ahead a ton on the flop and was thinking about getting some of the losses back. He had pretty much exactly what I thought he would have but I forgot all that when the turn brought the set. The sizing wasn't thought out obviously, hence my comment about taking time to make decisions. As for outright bluffing, I have learned that balancing these bluffs is still pretty +EV even when called sometimes, because showing that you can be bluffing will get more hands paid off. I obviously don't want to just run super strong lines with strong made hands.

More patient is definitely advice I need to take.

gl tj, we all want you to succeed!

I really don't like that 88 hand. Think about your hand, and the equity you have vs his range of hands.

Also think about the range that continues, and if you're likely to get shipped on.

I think you're pretty lucky you didn't get shipped on with the particular hand he had. I think most of the hands that continue are going to shove on you here. Your equity against this range is really bad.

If you're c/r and calling off 88 here you're inviting all sorts of crazy variance! The best thing to do while you're downswinging is try lowering the variance for a while. If a play is a close decision, maybe try taking the lower variance of the two options for a bit till you get your groove back.

Originally Posted by griffey24

I really don't like that 88 hand. Think about your hand, and the equity you have vs his range of hands.

Also think about the range that continues, and if you're likely to get shipped on.

I think you're pretty lucky you didn't get shipped on with the particular hand he had. I think most of the hands that continue are going to shove on you here. Your equity against this range is really bad.

If you're c/r and calling off 88 here you're inviting all sorts of crazy variance! The best thing to do while you're downswinging is try lowering the variance for a while. If a play is a close decision, maybe try taking the lower variance of the two options for a bit till you get your groove back.

I agree with this and have been doing just that. That 88 hand was during my tilt infested play. I have been getting away from all tight spots and am playing much smarter post flop again. i know I was not playing well and was playing overly tricky vs bad players that were easy to read but out running me and tilting me into no aggression and becoming a retard.

Ship the 10BI's at $50NL

Originally Posted by jyms

Ship the 10BI's at $50NL

very nice! keep it up

also - i have made this post my new homepage, to make sure i'm in the right state of mind before i play - dunno if this is of any use to you? read it and see http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ue-t34250.html

edit - can't take credit for finding this old post - Robb = researcher extraordinaire

Hey Jyms. You know what it takes to beat this game, and you're good enough to do a proper review. As long as you're honest with yourself about whats a good play and whats a bad play regardless of results, then modify your game accordingly.

Yes, against people who c/c 3 streets with 2nd pair you c-bet less and you value bet more. Thats as tricky as you need to get against those guys man.

Nice jyms!!

Originally Posted by jyms

Ship the 10BI's at $50NL to Robb

I need a mule to kick me in the fucken head. I thought about just not posting this but that's not going to help me come o grips with my problem so here it is.



If nobody posts in this thread again I will understand. I know how you guys feel and I know you want me to fix it. I just gotta figure out what "it" is.

I don't understand why I have no problems beating the game yet seem to have such a problem with losing a buy in or two. As soon as I lose one or two, or get a couple bad beats I just seem to lose and lose. even knowing I can get it back if I just play the game I play. I know how to beat the stakes I play, I am trying to adjust my game to beat the stakes that I want to play, and for some reason the two will not mesh together. I also beleive that this may not be true and it's just me.

So the OP continues. BR $1800

Ahhh, come on man, ding ding ding, wheres the lightbulb, its right there!!

I know how to beat the stakes I play, I am trying to adjust my game to beat the stakes that I want to play, and for some reason the two will not mesh together

At 50nl you play the best game to beat 50nl, at 100nl to beat 100nl and so on. Dont be playing a 5/10 game at 50nl because its not optimal. Be aware of that stuff, think about that stuff, plan for it when you get there. Adapt it to work at 50nl, but dont play it. Look, your immediate goal is what, $5k? Thats 50nl and 100nl. Beat that. When you get there, THEN worry about beating 200nl. Find the fish, exploit them. Cooler the regs. Value bet, dont bluff too much. Its the basics Jyms. Thats all you need at this point, and you know that because you've done it a number of times now.

And for gods sakes quit when you need to.

Seriously, put it into money terms. To take a concept from either Griffey or Alexos, think of it as Tilt Tax. Imagine at the end of the month someone handed your your Tilt Tax bill and told you to pay up! You look down and realise what was a great month is now a losing month because you have to pay your tilt bill. Then you read the small writing and find out that Tilt Tax is actually optional, but its up to you. Just think how much your last months Tilt Tax is and the effect its had on your roll. All because you cant quit? Does quitting seem like such a terrible thing now if it could have cut that bill down by 50-80%?

Originally Posted by bjsaust

And for gods sakes quit when you need to.

Seriously, put it into money terms. To take a concept from either Griffey or Alexos, think of it as Tilt Tax. Imagine at the end of the month someone handed your your Tilt Tax bill and told you to pay up! You look down and realise what was a great month is now a losing month because you have to pay your tilt bill. Then you read the small writing and find out that Tilt Tax is actually optional, but its up to you. Just think how much your last months Tilt Tax is and the effect its had on your roll. All because you cant quit? Does quitting seem like such a terrible thing now if it could have cut that bill down by 50-80%?

FTW

I'm behind you Jyms, and I will continue to read the thread and try to encourage you. And BJ's post here just really put some good things into perspective for me.

Dont force it Jyms, just do what you know how to do.

maybe u should switch to FR for abit and mutlitable everest. def needs a lower variance game imo for a short break.

alos maybe u still attach too much monetary value to your br.

Thanks guys. I like the idea of the tilt tax bj, I had heard that before but It hasn't crossed my mind during this situation at all, I will try and use that to my advantage. I like the posters bullocks, I added them as my desktop screen savers, see if they help. I will look for a few more.

Goat, you are absolutely correct. My BR does have monetary value more now than in the past. I was at work today and I was running a ton of things through my head as to why I have changed my whole attitude towards poker and even my beliefs in how the game and BR should be approached. I realized that I have put too much pressure on my BR to cover some upcoming costs in April and June. I have plenty of time and for some reason I am trying to get to the point of covering those costs now. To top it off, neither cost is much and it's nothing I haven't done before. One of the reasons I am allowed to play so often, and be here on FTR so much is becasue I pay some bills with my BR and always have. I don't have monthly expenses anymore to pay from poker earnings, but I would like to make sure my family gets something from the time I spend in this chair. Still, I don't know why this has been such an issue this time around.

I just have to stop trying to make it all this month. I know what you mean about FR at Everest but I don't know what that will do for my growth in this area. I really don't want to sidestep this issue, and I have to solve these issues while the money is so little, I would hate to have to try and battle this again in the future when the money is significant. I think I made some progress erlier today, but we will see.

I noticed this past weekend that I tilt playing online because I kind of store up the frustration from each beat until it explodes.

I know the temptation/desire is to play through it, especially with the potential to win your money back from the donkey. But I'm wondering if even just sitting out for a couple min and getting up, even just to go to the bathroom or something, might be beneficial.

Originally Posted by swiggidy

getting up, even just to go to the bathroom or something, might be beneficial.

better than peeing in the chair, imo

This is 100% a patient issue. I know exactly how you feel. Outside pressure is causing you to force things. Try this, the next time you play try to only win 1 BI every 1000 hands. If you take an early beat, hey you still have hands to win it back. If you go up early, relax and don't force things, all you have to do is not give it away.

Funny you say that Jager. I made this at work today and emailed it to myself to stick on my desktop. It's my BR targets.




It's not a hard and fast target but it's too keep me thinking that I am within my range of reaching the goals I need. It goes till the 31st but you get the point. Just making it showed me the actual tempo is much slower than I seem to expect it to be.

I jsut watched the Biggest loser and decided to do one for myself as well. I have somewhere to be in June and I want to be at my playing weight (280...235) so now I have two charts to follow. Thing is, doing things like this back in the day for others I when training I could see the ups and down you can have following it, but the overall plan just seems so easy and the minor setbacks just don't hurt the same knowing you will have good weeks too. Usually evidenced by the quick starts most people have. I just gotta look at the long term in a way I know how.

To be honest. I dont like the idea of the that BR target chart. Poker earnings dont go upwards in a linear direction. You might tilt yourself when you don't achieve your daily targets.

I said they weren't hard and fast targets at all, I think making the chart is more important than actually following it. I highly doubt I will be able to look at it for that long anyway. I just want to use it for a bit to see the pace that I need to actually aim for. It's like Alexos said, I am trying to rush things and this shows there is no rush. Couple winning sessions a week is more than enough. Having a deadline for a target is making me tilt from what I gather. This chart would triple what I need by april 1st, it's not my actual goal.

a) Make a simple checklist. Write down all those simple things that are going wrong. I have a sheet placed visibly on my grinding station that says:

- Tired?
- Focused?
- Tilted?
- Relaxed?
- Nervous?
- Stressed out?
*Dont stack off with one pair without a reason*
*Remember your EV*
*Stick to your stop loss*
*You can fold the river*

Really simple points everybody knows, but still the spots where I fuck things up when I fuck things up. Works well for me so far, seems to be way easier to follow simple rules, when they´re physically present and not only on your mind where they may get "overlooked" by brain from time to time.

b) Consider switching sites. I visited a friend last night and played some 50nl 6max on his ipoker acc. We didnt table select and I had no hud running, but from that small sample it seemed to me those games sucked big time. Couple of 13-tabling nits on short handed small stakes games wtf?!

iPoker does suck for the times I play. There are enough soft players and the regs are easy to find. I am shocked at how many will sit on 6 or 7 tables with each other and just pay rake all day because of the old rakeraces and RB though.

I will be moving as soon as I can find the right place for me, my "Thread to End All Threads" in the online poker rooms forum was a bust for information. I really liked NoIQ but they have left so I just thought I would see how Poker Plex worked it out and how the games changed after those players left for the new Rakeraces on the new network. I do need to crunch some numbers. DaGoat seems to like Full Tilt but there has always been the consensus that if your not US why play there. The problem with both iPoker and Crypto is they base their point system on dealt hands, so multitabling nits make money even if they are losing players.

I like the checklist, unfortunately I would have a checkmark beside so many that I may not ever get any hands in. I would be at $5/$10 if I could fold a river or stick to a stop loss. Working at it though.

I have a similar idea but very different list XTR. I printed up Bens Rules of Poker and keep beside my laptop. I went through and identified the things costing me the most money and made little rules to protect myself. Worked a treat. Then I started ignoring it because I was crushing...and dropped 1/3 of my roll.

Why the hell do we keep thinking we should change when its working?