Dwarfman, Chardrian - Get Smart

I'm telling you this as a friend and fellow poker player, but both of your recent blogs really disgust me.

We preach BR management for a reason on this forum, in fact, i'm sure I've even heard both of you state them as well. You are not special in this case, you, too, must follow BR rules or risk going bust. In fact, Dwarfman you did just go bust, Stop playing out of your bankroll requirements.

I dislike getting private messages about staking offers from people in your situations. It happened once, it will happen again. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Don't be stupid.

Pokerfanatic, you are in this boat too.

Well said.

PREACH BROTHA

i think there is something to be said about a player that has been playing online for a couple years and has a 600 dollar bankroll. But in dwafrs defense he was not risking a significant portion of his bankroll to run it up. Char. on the other hand was, but i have a friend thats an mtt junkie and he is the same way.

They are not smart and will suffer endlessly if they continue, I think it is smart that Jeff, isnt going to help anymore, they both know better. WTF you guys learn and dont repeat!!

I have absolutely no problem with getting reamed about my BR management. I admit that I do not play within it. I believe I have always said DO NOT follow my example. I don't want to "defend" myself because there is nothing to defend. But I do want to make a couple of points:

1) My bankroll is not set in stone. I am currently playing with just poker winnings - and that's what I'm calling my bankroll. But if I go bust, I have a full-time job and can once again take money from (*gasp*) my bank account.

2) I have never, and will never ask anyone to stake me. Period.

I understand a lot of online players do not have a steady income because they are in school - if this is you, once again DO NOT follow my example.

well in this case your BR isnt really wat ur saying it is, and ur just making ur brethren worry.

Originally Posted by scgolfer

They are not smart and will suffer endlessly if they continue, I think it is smart that Jeff, isnt going to help anymore, they both know better. WTF you guys learn and dont repeat!!

I don't wanna get into a pissing match with a guy who is once again FTing the $30 R&A at Dise again tonight. But while I definitely deserve a reaming regarding BR management, I have never been staked - the only person I ask for financial help from is myself.

congrats sc - I truly do have FT envy.

well in this case your BR isnt really wat ur saying it is, and ur just making ur brethren worry.

What is his bankroll then? Everything he is willing to invest into poker? I believe it is more important for a player who can't afford to deposit more money to be really carefull with BR management than someone who can. I mean, if I go bust I'd deposit more, but I still don't consider my whole bank account my BR, as I'm not willing to put it all into poker. I started out at 25NL when beginning with poker, it was above my BR if you consider what I put into the site, but I thought I would learn the game faster playing against decent players, and I think I have. I lost $200 first, like I thought might happen, and then put more into the site and now after 2 months I've made back what I've invested a few times.

My point is I think your ability to deposit more money into your BR should be considered when valuating your BR management, however I have not found this mentioned in BR posts I've read. Any thoughts on this?

I think that ur effective BR is watever u are williong to put into poker.

I have x dollars in my PP account + y dollars in my neteller acct + z dollars in my bank account that I can deposit should I find the need to.

My BR is not x+y but rather x+y+z.

My point is I think your ability to deposit more money into your BR should be considered when valuating your BR management, however I have not found this mentioned in BR posts I've read. Any thoughts on this?

I think that is a HUGE mistake.

If your not making money, then move down in limits. Your not playing poker to take chances, your not playing poker to GaMbOL it up, your playing to make money.

If your not making money, the correct response is to move to a lower limit, not to deposit more money into your bankroll!!!

If your not making money at .01/.02, and still enjoy playing poker, fine, deposite $20 a month or whatever and have fun.


People deposit money into a bankroll for one of two reasons...
1) They are playing to high for the bankroll they have, and variance hit. (like it ALWAYS will)
2) They are playing higher than they have the skill level to beat, and are losing money over time. (move down until your making money, and then bounce back and forth as your bankroll changes allowing you to break even as you learn the new level.)

Starting with just a $20 deposit, and using your bankroll properly(15 times buyin before you move up), you can reach the $200NL tables much sooner than most people think.

Start with a $20 bankroll.
Move up when you hit 15 times the buyin for the next level.
Play 10,000 hands of $2NL and you reach $100. ($0.80/100 at 20BB/100)
Play 6,875 hands of $10NL and you reach $375. ($4/100 at 20BB/100)
Play 3,750 hands of $25NL and you reach $750. ($10/100 at 20BB/100)
Play 3,750 hands of $50NL and you reach $1,500.($20/100 at 20BB/100)
Play 3,750 hands of $100NL and you reach $3,000.($40/100 at 20BB/100)
================================================== ======================
Thats a total of about 28 thousand hands.


Thats 562 table hours.
Thats 140 hours of playing four tables.
Thats just 3.5 weeks full time to make $3,000, the bankroll required for $200NL. (just TWO weeks if you have $100 to start off with instead of $20)

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...=189998#189998

Your bankroll is simply defined as the amount of money which if you lost, would prevent you from continuing to play poker.
If you can not deposit more, it is obviously the amount in your account.
If you can deposit, it is your account plus the amount you are willing/able to deposit to continue playing.

If you can't beat the game, bankroll management rules do not apply.
They are to prevent a winning player from going broke.
If you are not a winning player you should play the lowest limits possible or quit playing altogether.

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Your bankroll is simply defined as the amount of money which if you lost, would prevent you from continuing to play poker.
If you can not deposit more, it is obviously the amount in your account.
If you can deposit, it is your account plus the amount you are willing/able to deposit to continue playing.

The problem with this is that you can always deposit more.
If you lose everything you have online and the $1,000 you had as your limit to deposit, it's way way to easy to deposite just a little more...

It's just asking for trouble, and I bet more people have gone bankrupt from that mistake than any other.

At least if you have a firm bankroll, the worse that can happen is for you to lose your poker money. If your willing to deposit money into your bankroll, then the worse is that you might be living on the street without a penny to your name.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you have "bankroll" money that isnt deposited into your poker accounts (other than for B&M play), why isn't it already in your poker account.

It's probally not in the account because either you dont really have it as poker money and shouldnt be spending it on poker, or because you already have a large enough bankroll for the limits you play at.

If it's the first case, then dont spend it on poker.

If it's the second case, then using it as bankroll could easily stop you from seeing and fixing leaks because your bankroll is just refilled when you make loseing instead of forcing you to fix your game.

I agree, but people who will not stick to a strict "I can only deposit X" plan probably wouldn't stick to a strict bankroll plan in any form.

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

I agree, but people who will not stick to a strict "I can only deposit X" plan probably wouldn't stick to a strict bankroll plan in any form.

I'd sure agree with that

I still think it's bad practice though

What is the deal with people publicly criticizing the bankroll management of others? What does this accomplish other than starting a pissing match?

If you are truly concerned for someone who's playing 'unsafely' and 'risking ruin'. Contact them via PM or Email and discuss it that way. No one wants to be publicly humiliated.

I believe the post was meant to warn others who might be reading these blogs that there are some bankroll issues here that should not be followed if you want to become a long-term success. I take no offense at that. I am doing this blog for a couple of reasons. But one of the big reasons is to put my poker playing out in the open. That means showing the good and the bad - it is very easy to see someone saying I won this tourney and FTed this tourney, and have won over $30 k in the last 6 months, blah blah blah. But it is also easy for that person to leave out the part that he has also lost $28 k. I look forward to continued criticism (and hopefully some accolades as well).

Originally Posted by chardrian

I believe the post was meant to warn others who might be reading these blogs that there are some bankroll issues here that should not be followed if you want to become a long-term success. .

You're likely right but with statements like "get smart" and "both of your recent blogs really disgust me." It hardly comes across this way and is unlikely to generate much positive response.

I certainly hope if i have a BR issue someone will confront me but choose to do so in a more appropriate fashion in order to solve the problem rather than trigger a defensive reaction.

Meh - I see where u are coming from thirteen and agree that bickering and insults aren't the way to go. But I put my poker play out into the open and ej has now put his opinion of my poker play out into the open. I'm cool with that.

Originally Posted by thirteen

What is the deal with people publicly criticizing the bankroll management of others? What does this accomplish other than starting a pissing match?

If you are truly concerned for someone who's playing 'unsafely' and 'risking ruin'. Contact them via PM or Email and discuss it that way. No one wants to be publicly humiliated.

Both Dwarfman and Chardrian are respective members of this community. They give public advice daily that is followed and read by a thousand if not more members. Their reputations are important but not as important as other factors. I want to make sure they know people care and I want to make an example out of them to everyone, in that BR management IS important, in fact one of the MOST important things out there.

You're likely right but with statements like "get smart" and "both of your recent blogs really disgust me." It hardly comes across this way and is unlikely to generate much positive response.

I certainly hope if i have a BR issue someone will confront me but choose to do so in a more appropriate fashion in order to solve the problem rather than trigger a defensive reaction.

Some people are more open with their lives than others and are more confident in their own abilities. I'd rather have any criticism of me in the open so other people can give their opinions on it as well. I also want to give them a chance to defend their actions. Finally, if you want to make it into a flame war then thats fine, but thats not the point of this thread.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Finally, if you want to make it into a flame war then thats fine, but thats not the point of this thread.

I certainly do not want a flame war. Your last post stated the situation much more eloquently than your original. I can now see the true point of your thread. I believe the connotation of the original thread was quite easy to take out of context.

http://www.pocketfives.com/A54B7CFC-...1692E5604.aspx

*Sigh*

I was taking a break from grinding .5/1 LHE and decided to spend $10 to do one of my Dwarfman Challenges (with a $500 bankroll!!). And you berate me because I won it... what would you have said had I just lost the $10 and then got on with the .5/1?

Technically, what you did wasn't so bad, Dwarfie. I mean, all you really did was risk $10. But...once you made it up to the higher levels you had HALF of your bankroll on the table in front of you. Doesn't matter how you got there or how much you risked to get there, you can't deny that.

We're just looking out for you, bro.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Technically, what you did wasn't so bad, Dwarfie. I mean, all you really did was risk $10. But...once you made it up to the higher levels you had HALF of your bankroll on the table in front of you. Doesn't matter how you got there or how much you risked to get there, you can't deny that.

We're just looking out for you, bro.

I acknowledge that, and thank you for that.

But what starts in the Dwarfman NL Challenge stays in the Dwarfmang NL Challenge, .

Yes Jeff you are right however unlike Dwarf not to sound like a dick I’m not playing on others money and I don't ask to...

I understand it is time to get my head out of my fucking ass, I think that I have a solid 10 points that I think is a bit specific to me however... I think they should be shared and maybe others will benefit from it...

1: Hold true to my BR Rules
2: Shut the fuck up at the tables no matter what happens
3: Play my game to the fullest, and play long sessions
4: Set my fucking ego at the door from here on out
5: Lesion to Soupie and Jeff closely
6: Understand that you guys are only trying to tell me the truth and not be pricks but to help me out
7: Understand that i am only beating myself, not some donk
8: Understand that poker is a game of long term profits I will loose on a day to day basis here and there
9: Take PT out on a night of the town more often
10: Last but not least learn to look at thing positively and have fun...

Even if you're playing within your BR it's always good to hear reminders now and again, and again, and again, and again...

If someone reminds you to play within your BR they are doing it with good intentions. If they intended malice then they simply wouln't say anything at all or even go as far to encourage you to play outside it. There is no need for anyone to get defensive.

Even though I play within my BR, I still consider myself lucky to have so many people constatnly reminding me about proper BR management. It is a lesson worth hearing and preaching repeatedly.

Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye

There is no need for anyone to get defensive.

I wasn't or at least I didn't think I was as I typed that post...

Of course my first line could be taken as defensive; however it was not intended that way... What I think I was trying to say is I know that Jeff has a very very valid point, however I think even it is my own money doesn't make it right to do... If you are doing it on someone else’s money I think it becomes even worse... So I strongly believe that I’m not really getting defensive about anything I know I fucked up, and it was my money at risk because of it... I have no reason to be doing stupid moves, if it's my bank roll or if I’m staked... However, if you do it on your own roll you only have you to blame and only you to be mad at... If you do it when you are stakes then you have the person that staked you pissed and won’t stake you ever again and you have yourself to be pissed at...

So here it is, as you read in my 10 points of mine there that hearing reminders IS a good thing, set you egos aside and lesion to what other around you are telling you…

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

Yes Jeff you are right however unlike Dwarf

Apologies if my post(s) sounded asshole-ish, it was unintended. I was just pointed out that I was taking part in a challenge that only had you risking $10.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

But...once you made it up to the higher levels you had HALF of your bankroll on the table in front of you. Doesn't matter how you got there or how much you risked to get there, you can't deny that.

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

But...once you made it up to the higher levels you had HALF of your bankroll on the table in front of you. Doesn't matter how you got there or how much you risked to get there, you can't deny that.

Yah well as I said before, the Dwarfman NL Challenge is a 'loophole' ** for BR management. I had every intention to play until I had won 5/10 NL and then quit... because that is the nature of the Dwarfman Challenge.. if you lose at any point you only drop $10 (and in fact I would've profited anyway due to leftover money).

I firmly feel that it is this leftover money that makes the Dwarfman Challenge +EV, although very damn swingy, it would need at least 50 buyins to play (50x10 = $500).

** I essentially say this is vein. There are no loopholes for BR management, but the Dwarfman challenge is about as close as you'll get.

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

Technically, what you did wasn't so bad, Dwarfie. I mean, all you really did was risk $10. But...once you made it up to the higher levels you had HALF of your bankroll on the table in front of you. Doesn't matter how you got there or how much you risked to get there, you can't deny that.

We're just looking out for you, bro.

I acknowledge that, and thank you for that.

But what starts in the Dwarfman NL Challenge stays in the Dwarfmang NL Challenge, .

Except that didn't you get out with your $500? UG's point is that as soon as the amounts involved represented a significant portion of the BR, it has to be treated like "ordinary" BR.

why cant everyone just play smart and start off at small stakes and just build and build and build? Its not that hard if you want to win a lot of money you first have to win a little money. I have never understood why some people have troube with the concept of BR management when it is just an istinct for me. You cant win any money if your broke.

...I still feel I haven't done anything wrong, BR management wise. Ultimate George makes a valid suggestion in saying that treat it like your real BR if you make it that far, but because I feel that the Dwarfman Challenge is +EV if you play it out, I will play it out all the time and make money in the long run.

Originally Posted by dwarfman

...I still feel I haven't done anything wrong, BR management wise. Ultimate George makes a valid suggestion in saying that treat it like your real BR if you make it that far, but because I feel that the Dwarfman Challenge is +EV if you play it out, I will play it out all the time and make money in the long run.

To be honest I can understand that, and out of all the possible ways to bend/break bankroll guidlines the Dwarfman Challenge is the ONLY one that can't leave your bankroll more than $10 down.

In fact the more I think about it the more it looks like playing a MTT. It's the same idea, and probally about the same risk. This is a way for players that to use ring skills like a MTT.

But,that said, just like the amount you have invested into a pot shouldnt affect your decisions about the pot, the amount you invested to start the Dwarfman Challenge shouldnt affect your bankroll decisions.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I think that as long as you have the bankroll for a $10MTT (in fact you would need less than for a $10MTT), This is a valid way to use your bankroll.

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

why cant everyone just play smart and start off at small stakes and just build and build and build? Its not that hard if you want to win a lot of money you first have to win a little money. I have never understood why some people have troube with the concept of BR management when it is just an istinct for me. You cant win any money if your broke.

You'll be seeing a post from me soon that talks about this in my blog, and possibly on the main forum...I take BR management to the extreme, but I'm building and building and building, slowly but surely. I don't need to be at the highest levels of poker quite yet, I'll get there soon enough. I just wish everyone else could think like this too.

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

why cant everyone just play smart and start off at small stakes and just build and build and build? Its not that hard if you want to win a lot of money you first have to win a little money. I have never understood why some people have troube with the concept of BR management when it is just an istinct for me. You cant win any money if your broke.

Quoted for truth.

I have been playing poker for about a year now and heres my opinion.

If you play out of your bankroll your going to LOSE. It's almost as if the people who play out of there bankroll or looking for an easy escape route. Instead of grinding they are willing to gamble. I guess some people just dont really understand how much variance can affect you.

Originally Posted by Diminish

I have been playing poker for about a year now and heres my opinion.

If you play out of your bankroll your going to LOSE. It's almost as if the people who play out of there bankroll or looking for an easy escape route. Instead of grinding they are willing to gamble. I guess some people just dont really understand how much variance can affect you.

What is the word "almost" doing in that statement?????

Originally Posted by Laeelin

To be honest I can understand that, and out of all the possible ways to bend/break bankroll guidlines the Dwarfman Challenge is the ONLY one that can't leave your bankroll more than $10 down.

Not exactly true because soon as you win money it is part of your bankroll. If you lose 'profit' it still counts as a loss. If you take $10 and win $300 and then lose it all, you have lost a $310 bankroll not $10.

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

why cant everyone just play smart and start off at small stakes and just build and build and build? Its not that hard if you want to win a lot of money you first have to win a little money. I have never understood why some people have troube with the concept of BR management when it is just an istinct for me. You cant win any money if your broke.

You are a wise young man chris. This is why I havent staked some FTR'ers.

In my opinion, if you havent beaten the stakes lower and worked your way up there, you are not good enough. If you cant friggin beat nl50 long term what makes you think you should be playing nl1000?? Even if you had the money that doesnt mean you are good enough. That is how I think and I know UG has the same ideology at least.

Also, Laeelin showed some good numbers in this very thread. It really doesnt take that much time if you are good enough. All this isnt directed to Dman or Chardrian especially, they have heard this all countless times. And this all should be n00b related stuff. I really cant believe we are again having BR management discussion

Originally Posted by Pingviini

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

why cant everyone just play smart and start off at small stakes and just build and build and build? Its not that hard if you want to win a lot of money you first have to win a little money. I have never understood why some people have troube with the concept of BR management when it is just an istinct for me. You cant win any money if your broke.

You are a wise young man chris. This is why I havent staked some FTR'ers.

In my opinion, if you havent beaten the stakes lower and worked your way up there, you are not good enough. If you cant friggin beat nl50 long term what makes you think you should be playing nl1000?? Even if you had the money that doesnt mean you are good enough. That is how I think and I know UG has the same ideology at least.

Also, Laeelin showed some good numbers in this very thread. It really doesnt take that much time if you are good enough. All this isnt directed to Dman or Chardrian especially, they have heard this all countless times. And this all should be n00b related stuff. I really cant believe we are again having BR management discussion

Where is rippy when you need him?

why cant everyone just play smart and start off at small stakes and just build and build and build? Its not that hard if you want to win a lot of money you first have to win a little money. I have never understood why some people have troube with the concept of BR management when it is just an istinct for me. You cant win any money if your broke.

Besides the fact im told you are one of the sites best players aces, which i will not refute, this is possibly THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF ADVICE ON THIS THREAD!!!!!

There are some people on here who are new and others who are older, but some all have the same problem that they dont have the patience to play at lower stakes. Well to sound very boorish it sucks. We have god Knows how many posters each week in the beginners forum telling their stories and how they wanna make it big. Good start, ambition but it needs brains and some patience.
If id been given a blog i would have used it wisely, and therefore i dont quite think its a good example that some of our 'admired' players arent playing by the rules. SHit man, i dont want a blog, but i guess some people on this deserve one more than others.
Sorry. Ive stopped ranting now. but man it sucks to the newer players who wanna learn like i did 6 months past.

Originally Posted by Les_Worm

Originally Posted by Laeelin

To be honest I can understand that, and out of all the possible ways to bend/break bankroll guidlines the Dwarfman Challenge is the ONLY one that can't leave your bankroll more than $10 down.

Not exactly true because soon as you win money it is part of your bankroll. If you lose 'profit' it still counts as a loss. If you take $10 and win $300 and then lose it all, you have lost a $310 bankroll not $10.

That's where opinions come into it.

I feel that if you take $10 and win $300 and then lose it all (in the dwarfman challenge) then you have lost $10. Other people will agree with me.

However you feel that if you take $10 and win $300 and then lose it all (in the dwarfman challenge)l, you have lost a $310 bankroll not $10. Other people will agree with you.

It's an opinionated matter.

i reckon that if you have a small br and win 300 you take it and leave. Why waste free money so to speak.
if 300 is nothing to you then carry on. 300 is nothing after all

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i dont quite think its a good example that some of our 'admired' players arent playing by the rules. SHit man, i dont want a blog, but i guess some people on this deserve one more than others.

Couldn't have said it better.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

why cant everyone just play smart and start off at small stakes and just build and build and build? Its not that hard if you want to win a lot of money you first have to win a little money. I have never understood why some people have troube with the concept of BR management when it is just an istinct for me. You cant win any money if your broke.

Besides the fact im told you are one of the sites best players aces, which i will not refute, this is possibly THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF ADVICE ON THIS THREAD!!!!!

There are some people on here who are new and others who are older, but some all have the same problem that they dont have the patience to play at lower stakes. Well to sound very boorish it sucks. We have god Knows how many posters each week in the beginners forum telling their stories and how they wanna make it big. Good start, ambition but it needs brains and some patience.
If id been given a blog i would have used it wisely, and therefore i dont quite think its a good example that some of our 'admired' players arent playing by the rules. SHit man, i dont want a blog, but i guess some people on this deserve one more than others.
Sorry. Ive stopped ranting now. but man it sucks to the newer players who wanna learn like i did 6 months past.

From what I understood a blog is more like a journal than a guide. When I post in the forums I try to give good, sound advice. I do my very best to tell people to, as you say "play by the rules" and set a "good example". However, what I post in my blog is what I actually do - and as you can see I do not always heed my own advice. You may think I'm "undeserving" of a blog. That's cool. But I don't understand how "newer players who wanna learn" are somehow being cheated or led astray by my blog. My blog is, and will be a daily update on my poker games and on my overall success as a poker player, it is not meant as an advice column (that's what I do on the forum). It will be up to the readers to decide if they want to follow my "example" or learn from my mistakes and do even better.

i wont point out the hypocrisy of offering 'advice' when you dont follow it yourself. I dont mind, im interested in how you play, dont get me wrong, it will just make newbs think they can do it too, when most of us know how good a player you are.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i wont point out the hypocrisy of offering 'advice' when you dont follow it yourself.

And I won't point out the hypocrisy of pointing something out by saying you won't point it out.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I dont mind, im interested in how you play, dont get me wrong, it will just make newbs think they can do it too, when most of us know how good a player you are.

Fair enough - I know where you are coming from. Don't wanna get into a pissing match, especially since I'm not even upset or offended. All I can say is "do as I say, not as I do" ...... now I gotta go find me a nice 50/100 limit game so I can double my roll from 2500 to 5000 tonight.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

i wont point out the hypocrisy of offering 'advice' when you dont follow it yourself. I dont mind, im interested in how you play, dont get me wrong, it will just make newbs think they can do it too, when most of us know how good a player you are.

for all intents and purposes
do as I say, not as I do.

feel that if you take $10 and win $300 and then lose it all (in the dwarfman challenge) then you have lost $10. Other people will agree with me.

I completely disagree with this statement. Dwarfman, money is money is money...

I understand, where this thinking is coming from but your initial investment does not give you reason to gamble with your profits (also known as return on investment). Yes, you could gamble with your profits but its called bad bankroll management.

Personally, since I am new to the thread I took the time to read about "Dwarfmans challenge". I understand the concept and the ultimate goal and realized why its considered so popular. (Its simply a loophole to practice bad bankroll management, as stated by others)

By the way this thread has some great points. I think its clear that we are not beating up on either dwarfman or chardiarian. The moral being play by the rules and obey bankroll management or else you will crash and burn.

Diminish

my tuppence'th is that the $10 used in the dwarfman challenge is extra-bankroll. It's like cashing out. I say this because the challenge is an exercise, or a bit of fun if you prefer; it's NOT poker as we all try and play it and treating it as such makes no sense.

Look at Elipsesjeff's account of how he won the challenge. How many of you would make those moves in your everyday game? It's gambling, it's like sticking a tenner into a slot machine, and ANYONE WHO TAKES THE CHALLENGE HAS TO BE AWARE OF THAT.

Say you spend your working day trading futures. On the weekend, you log on to your spread betting site and buy Tiger Woods to win the US PGA. You're using hard-earned money to speculate in a similar way to what you do each and every day at work, but the context is totally different - it's for fun, it's a way of using your disposable income in a way that provides you with entertainment. And then on Monday morning you'll be back using your forecasting skills to earn Megacorp Inc another few mill.

If Dwarfy had ADDED the $10 necessary to his BR in order to take up the challenge, would people still have the same moral issue with it?

Geez, everyone is always picking on Dwarfy...

I don't know how many times I've seen someone reminding him of BR management, he knows the deal by now. Whether or not he chooses to follow it, is his business. I agree that a blog is a journal, not a guide, so he can write whatever he wants, even if it's bad avice. He's been around here for a while, his advice on the forums is always sound, and I've seen him play enough ring (even though he prolly hasn't seen me... ) to know he's a pretty good player. Respect, Dwarfy.

HOWEVER, after seeing your statement, "if I go in with $10, get up to $300, and loose it all, I've only lost $10..." I see that there is a problem with your mindset on this game and it will be tough for you to build (and keep) a significant BR. Personally once I get up to $300, that is my money and will be sick if I lose it. OK, many months ago, I started with $100 and now have $4000, does that make it OK to lose $3900 since it's all winnings anyway? When does money go from being winnings, to being truly yours? When does it turn into money that you don't want to let go of? My answer... any money that is mine, is mine, and I'm not giving it up by "gambling".

Yes the Dwarfman Challenge is fun and can be treated at a separate game altogether, but man, after I see all that money, more common sense / money management / BR management skills would kick in and tell my ass to get the hell out of dodge. Fuck the game, making money is fun, and that's what I'm here to do. Grinding vs. Gambling is what it all boils down to, and some of us have a little more gamble in us. Me? Just show me the money. I know that grinding my way up the stakes is a proven method, and although it's a little more boring than taking a big shot, I'll stick with it.

I'm not saying anything was wrong with attempting the challenge, and I REALLY congratulate you on winning it cause I know how hard that thing really is. It's just that statement you made that had me a little concerned... but I fear there is nothing that can be done about it. I think it's one of those deeper mindframes that cannot be changed over night.

I hope you realize your true potential D-man, cause the only thing separating you from the people making tens of thousands, are a BR. They are not better players than you. They don't know more than you. They just have the BR (and the experience of playing higher stakes that comes with time) to make it work. GL at the tables man.

I made it clear that I was not picking on dwarfman. This post demonstrates the importance of bankroll management that BENEFITS ALL PEOPLE.

AS for my thoughts, people who play out of there bankroll or to lazy to grind at a level which they can or can not consistently beat. Either they are
1. Gamblers looking to move up to fast
2. Frustrated players

It's been said and i'll say it again. Most people have no idea on how much Variance can affect a player.

Bankroll management can be the difference between winning 1000's or losing 100's. Everything in poker is longrun. By mismanaging your bankroll you are only satisfying your wants in the short term by "trying to hit it big" when you need to think of the longrun. Even the lucky few who do "hit it big" (and btw it is very possible to hit it big by playing within your bankroll) usually blow it all cause they end up just mismanaging their br at higher stakes thus starting the whole PATHETIC process all over again.

I'm not trying to be a cocky asshole here, but i'm going to make a point. I have a built up a pretty large roll by playing very conservatively w/ my bankroll (at times with up to 60 buyins for ring) pretty quickly over these last 8 months. Compare that to people like (sorry mang but the thread is about you) dwarfy who have sat with their whole roll on a high stakes table on tilt: who has absolutely nothing to show for it.

you guys just need to realize that you can make 1000s playing poker, but its totally irrelevant if you don't manage your roll (which is probably one of the easiest parts of poker).

Excellenet post bmxicle, I agree completely.

Except,

you guys just need to realize that you can make 1000s playing poker, but its totally irrelevant if you don't manage your roll (which is probably one of the easiest parts of poker).

Exactly, it is the easiest part of poker. YOu have to train yourself to not play out of your bankroll and it really is not that hard if you can follow simple advice. Yet, I think the true problem is "TILT". I am sure the reason dwarfman sits with his whole bankroll at ring is because he is on tilt. People often deny the fact they tilt. I think pokerfanatic made a excellent post, on how not to tilt that you guys struggling with bankroll management should all read.

Originally Posted by storm75m

and I REALLY congratulate you on winning it cause I know how hard that thing really is.

He didn't win it...

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Originally Posted by storm75m

and I REALLY congratulate you on winning it cause I know how hard that thing really is.

He didn't win it...

You degrade him for playing outside of his bankroll..., and then degrade him for not finishing up when he does.

For me, the best way to prevent poor BR decisions is to:
- Set specific goals ($)
- Periodically check your progress
- Set thresholds for adjustment
- Be able to explain deviations from clear progress towards your goal
- Immediately drop down when you hit a threshold (or miss a goal)

A good and important thread. I for one am glad OP decided to write it. And as someone else has already said, it doesn't hurt to hear the message again and again and again.