i used to win at this game?

So i've been meaning to start an operation for a few weeks now. After starting the year off well up like $5k, i've done what i do every year after a decent start, and after yesterday i'm officially losing money this year. I'm probably down like $2k or so at poker and just barely down in BR after rakeback. My confidence has been pretty high the last few weeks playing even after a miserable april and a spewy may, but after dropping 10 buyins yesterday i'm just depressed. Not in a real life way, but in a poker mindset way. I dont really let poker affect my life negatively (after that first hour or so after a bad session), but my confidence is shot and i want to get my game back together.

I've played like 100k+ hands this year at 1/2nl on FTP, and although i have stretches where i play really well i always end up choking and either straight spewing or slowly leaking all my winnings away. I've been getting some coaching from Renton of the past few weeks and after only 2 sweat sessions, i feel like i'm thinking about the game better. He nailed one of my big problems (among many others) our first session. I have some sort of crazy passive tilt i go on where i start calling too many 3bets and bluffing way way way too much. While yesterday wasn't all that, it def. contributed to my worst day ever. I'm going to continue with Renton as long as he will take me on as a student, so hopefully this is the bottom and i can only go up.

I don't really know where im going with this, just venting i guess. I have had an operation or 2 in the past, and they have helped my keep some accountability, so i'm hoping this one will do the same. I plan on posting a hand or 2 every time I play, and every time i make a dumbass play I will post it to hopefully discourage myself from doing it again in the future. I dont really play on making this soley a BR building op, but that will obv be part of it. I started the year with an $8200 BR, its been as high as $13k, and is now at low point of $7800. I moved up to nl200 with a $5k BR, but if i drop below $7k i'm going to move back down to nl100. I've never been a BR nit before, but damn i feel like one all of the sudden.

Anyway, hopefully i can get a few people to stop in here every once in a while and help me figure this shit out. I know i have what it takes to win at this game, and i have no one to blame but myself.

bode

As for yesterday, I usually have a 4 BI stoploss for a day but i let that slip. I played about 500 hands in my first session, dropping a BI immediately w/ QQ<AK, got back to even, then got coolered, whiffed a huge draw and had a 3 barrell bluff picked off within the coarse of 100 hands and was down like $750. After taking a 2 or 3 hour break i came back focused and within the first 100 hands whiffed another 15 out draw and ran into the top of a spaz 4bet monkeys range when my AJs<AKo. Oh well, it happens sometimes so i kept playing since i felt i was playing well only to run into 2 more shitty spots for stacks and then make a bad play in a 3bet pot to lose another putting me down $1970 on the day. My biggest losing day ever by about $500, so needless to say i was pissed.

i have the next 3 nights free to play some pokers, so i'm going to focus and try to work on inching my way back to even for the month.

Gl man.

I will definitely be keeping track of this OP. I find it interesting seeing struggles at higher level poker (no offense...but I like to see that you guys are struggling with the same things we struggle with down at the microstakes!) I'm probably putting it wrongly...either way, good luck my friend!

Originally Posted by bode

I have some sort of crazy passive tilt i go on where i start calling too many 3bets and bluffing way way way too much. While yesterday wasn't all that, it def. contributed to my worst day ever.

I think I may also have the same "passive tilt" that you are describing here. It's important to note that tilt does not ONLY come in the "FUCK MY LIFE!" and throwing keyboard manner. It can even be passive which results in the: "Seriously? No way he has anything this time!"...call, call, call..."Shit, he had it." And hey, the first step to patching this leak is to recognizing that it's there. Now that you've been called out on it...you can say to yourself, "Am I really ahead of his range...or is this the tilt talking?"

Again, good luck buddy. I'm interested in seeing how everything goes!

i will follow with interest... and look forward to mixing it up with ya!
good luck, except in pots with me

GL bode!

Good Luck Yo!

Originally Posted by daven

i will follow with interest... and look forward to mixing it up with ya!
good luck, except in pots with me

is your FTP name outed? PM me if you want.

Renton will help a ton. I had a couple sessions with him and if I hadn't lost my whole BR to the same tilt issues you have I would probably have had a ton more. Both passiveness and misdirected aggression are killers at >$100NL. Drop down for a bit, no shame in fixing what's broke. By the time I came out of my funk I had actually forgotten how to play poker at those levels and had to be re-taught half my game, my mind was a tilted pretzel.

Originally Posted by jyms

Renton will help a ton. I had a couple sessions with him and if I hadn't lost my whole BR to the same tilt issues you have I would probably have had a ton more. Both passiveness and misdirected aggression are killers at >$100NL. Drop down for a bit, no shame in fixing what's broke. By the time I came out of my funk I had actually forgotten how to play poker at those levels and had to be re-taught half my game, my mind was a tilted pretzel.

i'm going to stay at 1/2 for now, but if i drop 4 more bi's im moving down. Renton has def got my thinking turned around (or started to alteast) in the short time i've been coached by him. As for the tilt issues, it seems like i have one of these -1k+ days at the start of each month and have to grind out of it, so i guess i'm used to it by now.

I'm racing Ant to 2/4
how about it?! we're all probably at the samish bankrolls

Originally Posted by iopq

I'm racing Ant to 2/4
how about it?! we're all probably at the samish bankrolls

steaks? i'm not sure that's the best idea, but if its for a nice friendly bet for like $100 or so i may be in.

also, what's the end of the race? kind of an arbitrary finish line seeing as how everyone has a different comfort for moving up.

Originally Posted by bode

Originally Posted by iopq

I'm racing Ant to 2/4
how about it?! we're all probably at the samish bankrolls

steaks?

mmm steaks

I'm up for a $100 bet to $20,000 as long as like we update each other on how close we are (no actual play at 2/4 necessary, just being "rolled" for it is enough)

then like if you say you are at $10,000 I'll definitely grind an extra hour or two if I'm at say $9000, so making it a race is definitely encouragement

you start ahead of me by about a thousand or so depending on whether you count real estate investments as part of my bankroll or not (I'm not counting that)

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by bode

Originally Posted by iopq

I'm racing Ant to 2/4
how about it?! we're all probably at the samish bankrolls

steaks?

mmm steaks

I'm up for a $100 bet to $20,000 as long as like we update each other on how close we are (no actual play at 2/4 necessary, just being "rolled" for it is enough)

then like if you say you are at $10,000 I'll definitely grind an extra hour or two if I'm at say $9000, so making it a race is definitely encouragement

you start ahead of me by about a thousand or so depending on whether you count real estate investments as part of my bankroll or not (I'm not counting that)

I have almost exactly $8k online right now, which is what i consider my BR. The problem is I have to withdraw $2500 at the end of July and may withdraw another $1k to $1500 at that time to buy my wife a birthday/5 year aniversary/thanks for bearing my child gift. So, if we dont count cashouts, i'm down for a $100 or $200 bet, but if we are then its a no go.

How about $10k profit bet starting today for $200? That will bet better than racing to $20k with all of us starting at different BR's.

played ~1k hands tonight over 2 different sessions and won $450. Played wall, flopped like 7-8 sets and didn't get paid once though.

Here's a spot that i feel like i get into too much, and is one of the causes of my variance filled game.

villain is 15/10/inf over only 40 hands, 11% 3bet, all in BB. I had iso'ed UTG fish several times in my short time at the table, so maybe this is completely standard. It can't be THAT bad vs a 1/2 stack, if it is at all.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP ($219)
CO ($171)
Hero (Button) ($201)
SB ($236.50)
BB ($126.05)
UTG ($102.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 9
UTG calls $2, 2 folds, Hero bets $9, 1 fold, BB raises to $30, 1 fold, Hero raises to $201 (All-In), BB calls $96.05 (All-In)

Flop: ($255.10) A, 7, 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($255.10) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($255.10) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $255.10 | Rake: $3



This is one of those spots where i get lost. Villain is completely unknown, but a typical 1/2 player i would expect to see QT/66/99/flush draws/maybet AJ. When he minraises, it makes me think he is not good, and makes his weakers holdings like AJ more likely. idk.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

BB ($220.30)
UTG ($92.75)
MP ($40)
CO ($63.70)
Hero (Button) ($202.40)
SB ($182)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, K
UTG calls $2, 2 folds, Hero bets $9, SB calls $8, 2 folds

Flop: ($22) J, 6, 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $16, SB raises to $32, Hero calls $16

Turn: ($86) K (2 players)
SB bets $86, Hero raises to $161.40 (All-In), SB calls $55 (All-In)

River: ($368) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $368 | Rake: $3




And, as promised, my botched hand of the day. I never do this, so i dont know why i did. villain was 21.7/16.3/3.8 over 200 hands 3bet 10%, almost all from the blinds. Looking back this looks stronger than just cold 4betting smallish, but it seems like his range is so wide here i want to get more value than just his 3bet. Probably bad logic.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($245.05)
Button ($89)
SB ($448.85)
Hero (BB) ($207.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, A
1 fold, Button bets $5.50, SB raises to $22.50, Hero calls $20.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($50.50) K, 9, 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $26, SB raises to $56, Hero calls $30

Turn: ($162.50) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $162.50, Hero calls $128.80 (All-In)

River: ($420.10) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $420.10 | Rake: $2

Originally Posted by bode

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by bode

Originally Posted by iopq

I'm racing Ant to 2/4
how about it?! we're all probably at the samish bankrolls

steaks?

mmm steaks

I'm up for a $100 bet to $20,000 as long as like we update each other on how close we are (no actual play at 2/4 necessary, just being "rolled" for it is enough)

then like if you say you are at $10,000 I'll definitely grind an extra hour or two if I'm at say $9000, so making it a race is definitely encouragement

you start ahead of me by about a thousand or so depending on whether you count real estate investments as part of my bankroll or not (I'm not counting that)

I have almost exactly $8k online right now, which is what i consider my BR. The problem is I have to withdraw $2500 at the end of July and may withdraw another $1k to $1500 at that time to buy my wife a birthday/5 year aniversary/thanks for bearing my child gift. So, if we dont count cashouts, i'm down for a $100 or $200 bet, but if we are then its a no go.

How about $10k profit bet starting today for $200? That will bet better than racing to $20k with all of us starting at different BR's.

pfff net profit
you can make net profit of 10K in like a month at 100NL

the whole point of the bet is to make some money, take some shots, make some more money at a higher level and take some more shots and hopefully do well 2/4 shot-taking enough to be looking forward to playing there permanently

if we go by amount made then you'll just out-grind me at your current stake

Hmm, missed this. Gl man. Hate to say it, but it is somewhat encouraging that someone I see as a much better player still goes through the ups and downs mentally as well as in results that frustrate me so much. Here I was complaining about being 10 buyins down for the month and you dropped 10 buyins in a day. Makes me feel like maybe its not just that I suck .

We seem similar in another way, which is that I think a good measurment of how bad/tilty I'm playing is how often I use my call button. The worse I am, the more I call. Getting small/med PPs allin PF is another sign.

So good luck, hope you come out of it. Looking foward to discussing some stuff in here and hopefully you'll drop by my thread too .


Rentons coaching, without going into anything he might prefer you dont, can you give a rundown on the kinds of things you do? How he helps, where the value is, etc?

Good Luck


May the River drown your oppenents...............

800 hand session tonight for +$725. Made back 6 of the 10 buyins i lost the other night playing well and def. running well. Couple hands from tonight.


Villain is a complete unknown. Turn is prob a fold. the only river i like seeing is a Q and even then im splitting the pot some. Im just such a fish against minraises.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

CO ($193)
Button ($200)
SB ($148)
BB ($75)
UTG ($200)
Hero (MP) ($238.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A
1 fold, Hero bets $7, CO calls $7, 3 folds

Flop: ($17) 10, A, J (2 players)
Hero bets $12, CO calls $12

Turn: ($41) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $27, CO raises to $54, Hero calls $27


vs 29/21/1 over only 14 hands, so basically unknown. I c/r the flop because i take it down a ton, i have decent equity w/ overs+GS+BDFD and can shove alot of turns.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (SB) ($202)
BB ($324.45)
UTG ($200)
MP ($95)
CO ($197)
Button ($76.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, Q
1 fold, MP bets $6, 2 folds, Hero calls $5, 1 fold

Flop: ($14) 4, J, 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $6, Hero raises to $24, MP calls $18

Turn: ($62) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $66

Hand 1: I think I fold there vs an unkown when I'm playing my A game. But I think I call there a lot and c/f or b/f the river like an idiot.
Some people minraise-bluff, but I'd want to have a note about that first.

I like hand #2, but I would make it just under pot on the turn... There are very few people who overbet bluff like that ever, and so I guess neither do you.

Villain only has $65 left on turn in hand 2.

**** man wish that queen came on the river

hand 1 is a snap fold for me, villain has set/scraight all day long

played some tonight for the first time in a while, lost $700 over 500 hands. Got sucked out on with a set vs an overpair AI on the flop for a stack, made 2 bad bluffs, and this beauty wrapped it up.

I honestly don't know how else to play this. villain is a complete unknown and this is his first hand at the table. The only hands i can see playing like this are AA, which is incredibly unlikely, AKhh, also unlikely, and bluffs. wtf.

comments please.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP ($100.50)
Button ($203)
SB ($400)
Hero (BB) ($308)
UTG ($129.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K
Hero bets $7, 3 folds, SB raises to $25, Hero calls $18

Flop: ($50) A, J, 4 (2 players)
SB bets $27, Hero calls $27

Turn: ($104) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $58, Hero calls $58

River: ($220) Q (2 players)
SB bets $290 (All-In), Hero calls $198 (All-In)

Who's going to 3 barrel bluff here? I think we just have to fold the river. We're calling a PSB hoping for a chop.

I hate this spot, we're basically calling for a split. Problem is, the only hand we were really ahead of on the turn was AQ .

std then fold river. possible to fold preflop too if u have reads

Def don't fold preflop against unknown, played fine, now fold river all day.

obv river is a fold in that hand. I was close to folding the turn just because i couldn't put him on a hand i was ahead of, then on the river i did one of my "dont think about the decision and tilt snap call".

Played a 800 hand session last night and booked a +$500 win. Really alot of standard spots, but i ran well(ish), played well, and got a couple of big river value bets called by a couple regs worse hands which is always nice. Only won 1 200bb pot the whole time, so it was +50bb here, +30 there, yada yada yada.

This is really the only interesting hand i played. BT is complete unknown but seems fishy over 15 hands or so. SB is 21/16/2.3 over 450 hands w/ 8% 3bet, 0% in SB. Don't really know what SB's cc'ing range is in the SB. 77/99 i would expect, but not 22. Probably calling suited broadways.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($186.35)
SB ($200)
Hero (BB) ($231.50)
UTG ($109.95)
MP ($94.35)
CO ($106)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K
3 folds, Button bets $4, SB calls $3, Hero raises to $18, Button calls $14, SB calls $14

Flop: ($54) 7, 9, 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $40, Button raises to $80, SB raises to $182 (All-In), Hero ???

I don't know how accurately I can put these players on ranges here, but this is my best shot during my morning tea:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 56.133% 55.03% 01.10% 2335500312 46698811.00 { KK }
Hand 1: 17.666% 17.50% 00.16% 742788159 6926320.00 { 99, 77, AcKc, AcQc, AcJc, KcQc }
Hand 2: 26.201% 25.07% 01.13% 1064054211 47886571.00 { 99+, 77, AcKc, AcQc, AcJc, KcQc }

So while I wanted to find a fold while reading the HH, it looks like a clear call. Any reads on button?

Edit: I suck at pokerstove. I'll leave my mistakes for the world to see so Da Goat doesn't look like a crazy person.

who u putting hand 2 on? SB?

its a clear fold imo

KK hand is a crying caaaaaallllll w/o more information.

hmm, posted that hand in the SH forum and everyone said it was a snap fold.

dev's ranges kinda suck but yeah its prolly a close fold

I went with close fold to, in the moment I hate life, fold, then curse my nittyness.

Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101

I went with close fold to, in the moment I hate life, fold, then curse my nittyness.

this summed up my thought process well. I guess i just hate folding.

Played a good session last night in the hour that i had and booked $250 over about 500 hands. Nothing eventful, played well and caught some cards.

Today i had about 45 minutes before i had to leave my house so i got in a quick session of 350 hands and won just over $600. I again played well (outside of the hand posted below) and ran like a kenyan obv. Should have been up $800+ but fucked up my last hand of the sess pretty bad.

Posted in all its glory for you guys to make fun of me so i dont do shit like this again. Villain is an uninspiring german "reg" i guess. I put him on JJ-KK amost always after his flop call and was planning on firing almost all turns. Turn card is the worst in the deck for me to rep an Ax hand, but i brainfart and fire anyway. He tanked the turn pretty hard, but i knew after his turn call he was folding aprox. .001% on the river, yet i waste $100 anyway. Maybe one day i'll stop doing shit like this.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

BB ($171.55)
Hero (UTG) ($205)
MP ($175.20)
Button ($205)
SB ($248.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10, 10
Hero bets $7, 2 folds, SB raises to $21, 1 fold, Hero calls $14

Flop: ($44) A, 7, 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $28, SB calls $28

Turn: ($100) A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $62, SB calls $62

River: ($224) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $94 (All-In), SB calls $94

Total pot: $412 | Rake: $3

haven't had much time to play recently. after getting my RB payment today (only $41 lol) my BR is back over $10k which feels good.

had not had a losing session since the 16th, but decided i wanted to fuck up the last day of the month and dropped $900. I played like 1k hands with 800 of them being me getting no hands, getting minraised by passive villains with mediocre TP type hands and slowly losing money with 200 hands of runhot to go -$800 --> -$150 --> -$900. good times.


as promised, here is a hand i fucked up. villain is 42/36.5/3.1 over 75 hands, has raised 50% of his hands UTG, although its a small sample. My river call is obv bad. I would have raised the flop bigger, but wanted to do everything i could to keep the 60/0 (yes, 0. this was the first hand he raised over 100 hands) drooler in the SB in the hand, who had not folded a flop yet. probly a b/f turn?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

SB ($609.65)
BB ($400)
UTG ($417.35)
MP ($479)
CO ($259.15)
Hero (Button) ($532.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 9
UTG bets $6, MP calls $6, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, SB raises to $10, 1 fold, UTG calls $4, MP calls $4, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($42) Q, 9, 10 (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $24, 1 fold, Hero raises to $72, 1 fold, UTG calls $48

Turn: ($186) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($186) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $165, Hero calls $165

Total pot: $516 | Rake: $3


i dont know wtf to do here. I got a 4bet flatted 3 times during this session and was lost on all of them. 2 were vs regs.

21/16/3.2 7% 3bet over 2.3k hands

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

BB ($235.35)
UTG ($232.85)
MP ($200)
Hero (CO) ($380.95)
Button ($222.55)
SB ($202.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero bets $6, Button raises to $21, 2 folds, Hero raises to $56, Button calls $35

Flop: ($115) 10, K, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($115) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $66, Hero folds

Total pot: $115 | Rake: $3

Is it terrible that I've started considering never 4-betting other than shoving OOP?

GL Bode, just saw this and I'll be following along rootin' for ya.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Is it terrible that I've started considering never 4-betting other than shoving OOP?

yeah, pretty sure thats terrible.

is there a training vid or something out recently advocating flatting 4bets?

Not sure, its becoming more and more popular though. I've just lost count of the times I'll 4b AK to say 28bb planning to call a shove, but instead they call and I miss the flop. It seems to force us to play very straight foward which can only be good for them.

Originally Posted by bode

villain is 42/36.5/3.1 over 75 hands, has raised 50% of his hands UTG, although its a small sample. My river call is obv bad. I would have raised the flop bigger, but wanted to do everything i could to keep the 60/0 (yes, 0. this was the first hand he raised over 100 hands) drooler in the SB in the hand, who had not folded a flop yet. probly a b/f turn?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

SB ($609.65)
BB ($400)
UTG ($417.35)
MP ($479)
CO ($259.15)
Hero (Button) ($532.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 9
UTG bets $6, MP calls $6, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, SB raises to $10, 1 fold, UTG calls $4, MP calls $4, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($42) Q, 9, 10 (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $24, 1 fold, Hero raises to $72, 1 fold, UTG calls $48

Turn: ($186) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($186) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $165, Hero calls $165

Total pot: $516 | Rake: $3

i'd raise the flop a little bigger and b/f turn for 125 or so

Originally Posted by bode

i dont know wtf to do here. I got a 4bet flatted 3 times during this session and was lost on all of them. 2 were vs regs.

21/16/3.2 7% 3bet over 2.3k hands

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

BB ($235.35)
UTG ($232.85)
MP ($200)
Hero (CO) ($380.95)
Button ($222.55)
SB ($202.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero bets $6, Button raises to $21, 2 folds, Hero raises to $56, Button calls $35

Flop: ($115) 10, K, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($115) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $66, Hero folds

Total pot: $115 | Rake: $3

if it's the first time you've been in this spot versus this villain c/f turn is the only line.

Originally Posted by bode

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Is it terrible that I've started considering never 4-betting other than shoving OOP?

yeah, pretty sure thats terrible.

is there a training vid or something out recently advocating flatting 4bets?

nah, CTS wrote about shoving as a 4b
basically, just go around shovelling on people as a 4b all the goddamn time, and you'll get paid when you have a big hand and you'll never get 5b bluffed

so basically we get slightly more fold equity if we shove as a 4b because we can't get rebluffed
what we give up is being able to catch a 5b bluff
so obviously we want to use this strategy against people who 3b a lot because they will never have 35% of their range able to call a 4b shove and if we get 65% folds with equity when called we are making a profit

if we 4b and fold we have no equity in the hand but we need only say 60% folds (depends on size)
if someone is going to 5b bluff 5% of the time, it's worth shoving it in as a 4b bluff because we prevent those 5b bluffs and if we run into the value range we still have tons of equity (when we 4b and fold we have 0 equity in the hand)

so with 100BB stacks it can go either way
when you get deeper, even 110BB, 4bing small gets better

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by bode

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Is it terrible that I've started considering never 4-betting other than shoving OOP?

yeah, pretty sure thats terrible.

is there a training vid or something out recently advocating flatting 4bets?

nah, CTS wrote about shoving as a 4b
basically, just go around shovelling on people as a 4b all the goddamn time, and you'll get paid when you have a big hand and you'll never get 5b bluffed

so basically we get slightly more fold equity if we shove as a 4b because we can't get rebluffed
what we give up is being able to catch a 5b bluff
so obviously we want to use this strategy against people who 3b a lot because they will never have 35% of their range able to call a 4b shove and if we get 65% folds with equity when called we are making a profit

if we 4b and fold we have no equity in the hand but we need only say 60% folds (depends on size)
if someone is going to 5b bluff 5% of the time, it's worth shoving it in as a 4b bluff because we prevent those 5b bluffs and if we run into the value range we still have tons of equity (when we 4b and fold we have 0 equity in the hand)

so with 100BB stacks it can go either way
when you get deeper, even 110BB, 4bing small gets better

i don't know, it just doesn't seem right. it also seems like you just pulled a bunch of numbers out of your ass in this post.

Originally Posted by bode

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by bode

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Is it terrible that I've started considering never 4-betting other than shoving OOP?

yeah, pretty sure thats terrible.

is there a training vid or something out recently advocating flatting 4bets?

nah, CTS wrote about shoving as a 4b
basically, just go around shovelling on people as a 4b all the goddamn time, and you'll get paid when you have a big hand and you'll never get 5b bluffed

so basically we get slightly more fold equity if we shove as a 4b because we can't get rebluffed
what we give up is being able to catch a 5b bluff
so obviously we want to use this strategy against people who 3b a lot because they will never have 35% of their range able to call a 4b shove and if we get 65% folds with equity when called we are making a profit

if we 4b and fold we have no equity in the hand but we need only say 60% folds (depends on size)
if someone is going to 5b bluff 5% of the time, it's worth shoving it in as a 4b bluff because we prevent those 5b bluffs and if we run into the value range we still have tons of equity (when we 4b and fold we have 0 equity in the hand)

so with 100BB stacks it can go either way
when you get deeper, even 110BB, 4bing small gets better

i don't know, it just doesn't seem right. it also seems like you just pulled a bunch of numbers out of your ass in this post.

I did the number crunching earlier
when we 4b shove a hand like:
22
65s
A5s
QTs
against the range JJ+,AK (this is a common 100NL stack-off range)

we have around 30.5% equity when called
that means when called we win 61BB
we put in 87BB into the pot (we opened to 3.5x, after a 13BB 3b)
that means we lose 26BB on average when called
we win 13BB when we don't get called
that means if we make villain fold 66.7% of the time we make money

We bet (3.5bb), they 3b (13bb), the 4b doesn't cost us 87bb, it costs us 96.5bb.

haven't updated in a while i guess. I started the month off up ~9 BI's over 3k hands but have dropped close to 4 over the last 2 sessions and am only up 5 over 5k hands now. I have a few hands i want to post but dont have the time right now, i'll try to remember to post them tonight.

Hopefully i can get in some more hands the rest of the month, but with a baby coming any day now, i dont know how realistic anything more than 10k hands this month is. At least FTP extended the mid year bonus clearing to the end of August i think. Can anyone confirm this?

Originally Posted by bode

i dont know if i was distracted with the baby coming or what, but i didn't have a winning session after july 11th. Played really well to start the month and just fucking tanked it.

also the least amount of hands i've played in a month since late 07 i think.

so there's my july graph. fucking horrible i know. I wish i could just play consistently because i know i can bet this game. I cashed out $3500 last night so my roll is now at $6k and i am going to play $100nl on FTP until i make a set amount of buyins. I havn't thought it through really, but i think something like making 20 buyins at nl100 with atleast a 3ptbb/100 winrate would be good before moving back up. This is the first time in my poker career (lol can i call it that?) that i have moved down for anything other than being underrolled. I'm down like 15 buyins or something stupid this year at nl200 and have only made money through rakeback, which isn't even that much.

i hope to get in atleast 10-12k hands this month, but adjusting to having a baby around its tough to get hands in. I do have $700 worth of bonus money that should clear in about 5-6k more hands that will help pad my roll, but i guess that doesn't matter much. I'm going to focus on winrate rather that a certain bankroll amount to move back up.

I'll try to update this regularly again, but i suck at that so no promises.

villain is DirteAA, decent reg 22.5/19.5/2.5 over 900 hands, 3bets 7.5% total, 8% from the button. I haven't played nl100 much since november of last year, so most of the hands are from then. He may have switched up his game entirely by now.

This was 50ish hands into this session. I got my stack by villain 4bet shoving AQo over my squeeze with AK from the SB. This is the first session i've played in a week or so and i felt completely lost in this hand despite flopping the world. I'm def. not 3betting this 200bb deep because i'm not happy getting it in. Calling def. seems best on the flop. idk, on the flop i feel like a c/r is only getting called/shoved on by AK/AA/KK, which is fine since AK has the most combos, but with an A and K on the board he's got a weak hand here so much and i can get atleast a cbet out of him most times. Once the turn hits, i feel like the only thing i beat that he is continuing with is AQ and again, only 3 combos of that so....

i still feel so lost on the best way to play this hand. Halp!



No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($58.50)
MP ($201.55)
CO ($208.05)
Button ($201.90)
SB ($43)
Hero (BB) ($198.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J
1 fold, MP bets $3.50, 1 fold, Button raises $12, 1 fold, Hero calls $11, 1 fold

Flop: ($28) A, J, K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $17, Hero calls $17

Turn: ($62) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $40, Hero ????

c/c down is fine, all his Ax hands will still bet river anyway. callign here keeps some of his range in.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

c/c down is fine, all his Ax hands will still bet river anyway. callign here keeps some of his range in.

ok, i thought i was a huge nit for playing it the way i did. I called turn, checked a blank river. villain tanked and eventually checked back, but i was seriously thinking about trying to fold to the ~PSB river shove that was coming. still dont think i could have folded though.