Imma Take the Leash Off. I Finally Get Serious About NLHE

BACKGROUND CRAP

(skip to post 2 if you just want to get to my plan)

My poker "career" is relatively backwards compared to most on FTR, I'd say. I've been playing since Spring of 2006. Back then, with my first and hopefully only deposit, the thing I got serious about was SNGs. I was ok, not great, profitable but certainly nothing special and kept at that for a few months. Poker texts and forums were still foreign to me then, so I got by on 3% guile, 14% instincts and 83% luck. Near the end of 2006 I found Limit Hold'em. If I have any strengths at all on the virtual felts it's the ability to be methodical and not tilt, so the nature of LHE quickly appealed to me. I equate the mental satisfaction I got pushing small edges repeatedly to the mental side of long distance running; I was really interested in being able to exercise good self-control through a huge number of very small gains. Strange as it may sound, it was a meditation of sorts and it didn't hurt that it was good and profitable for me. I found my bible (SSHE), read other texts, posted in a number of forums and just generally soaked up as much about LHE as I could. I played mostly $2/$4 and $3/$6 through 2007 and 2008 but never much higher as I got used to cashing out and having regular extremely disposable cash in my pocket.

Full Ring LHE was my primary game until the beginning of 2009 and while I still do l enjoy the nature it, the reality is LHE is now much tougher at $1/$2+ than it once was. It seemed to be turning around last summer but I'll finally admit Limit is dry, dry, dry, both FR and 6-max. The player population has little turnover. It's just too small and too good for 2bb win rates to be common anymore and I know from a $/hr standpoint, I can do much better elsewhere.

That's where Stud came in this past January, acting as a gateway drug to semi-frequent HORSE and 8-Game sessions. I'd played Stud and Razz before...out of curiosity I'd played pretty much everything at various times over the last couple of years without being too serious. But this time, I really dove in. I've spent most of this year at the Stud tables with good success and it's really opened up my mind and my goals. I've realized I want to learn poker. I don't want to be just a LHE or Stud or NLHE player. I want to have many skills, to really expand my repertoire and go to where the highest expected value is or just whatever interests me at the moment. And at this particular moment, that's NLHE.

I'd flirted with NL in the past when Limit traffic was slow at some of the Euro rooms I played at or just to get a taste of strange but always found myself bored. Amongst other things, I chalk it up to not understanding the subtleties and not being as comfortable playing 4+ tables as I am now, which led to less action than I was used to in Limit. But after a few recent sessions of $20NL I'm finally into it, and am really looking forward to learning the game that everyone else seems to know.

THE PLAN

I'm probably rolled for $50NL ($1800) but I have no business playing that high, so I'll take $50 and start back down at the bottom to learn the ropes: $2NL. That probably sounds masochistic but figure I might as well gain confidence at the lower levels. Hitting milestones is fun, of course, and I'll use a somewhat aggressive bankroll strategy in the micros to ensure I don't lose my mind. You'll see some goofy levels in there but that's what some of the rooms I play at offer so I'll take advantage.

Code:

Lvl, $ to Move Up, $ to Move Down
0.02	  $50		
0.04	  $80	$60
0.05	  $100	$80
0.1	  $200	$150
0.2     $400      $300
0.25	  $500	$400
0.5	  $2,000	$1,500
1        $4,000	$3,000

The one problem I'll have over the rest of the year is a busy schedule, so I doubt I'll get in more than 5000-7000 hands a month. If I can hit 25NL by the end of October, I'll be happy. At that point, I'll cash out a bit of my larger roll to celebrate and incorporate the remainder of what's been sitting in Moneybookers into what I play NL with.

Thanks for paying attention.

I read it word for word, gl sir.

Thanks, M2M.

Not a bad start...585 hands, +$3.47, 29.66 bb/100

NL Bankroll = $53.47.

iPoker is stupid nitty. I had more than one 2NL table playing less than 20% VPIP. I might have to do this on Stars to maybe save some time.

go benny go

2nl on stars is pretty fun actually, I've been playing it because it's the most comparable game to 1/2 live :P

People keep saying that learning other games is good for NLHE, so now I guess we'll find out .

Good luck!

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

THE PLAN I'll take $50 and start back down at the bottom to learn the ropes: $2NL. That probably sounds masochistic but figure I might as well gain confidence at the lower levels. Hitting milestones is fun, of course, and I'll use a somewhat aggressive bankroll strategy in the micros to ensure I don't lose my mind. You'll see some goofy levels in there but that's what some of the rooms I play at offer so I'll take advantage.

Code:

Lvl, $ to Move Up, $ to Move Down
0.02	  $50		
0.04	  $80	$60
0.05	  $100	$80
0.1	  $200	$150
0.2     $400      $300
0.25	  $500	$400
0.5	  $2,000	$1,500
1        $4,000	$3,000

I like your plan, with one caveat. I think start with $60 rather than $50, you'll bet at 4nl faster and it's probably more efficient use of your time

I'm also interested in what you said about limit getting harder. I have played a little limit and was thinking about adding some back into my game palette (starting at 1/2) as there are aspects of limit that i like for improving NL play - but sounds as though it may not be worth my while playing that high to study? I mean, if i simply want to test and apply ideas i can do that lower, and if the games are really that tough at 1/2+ then it sounds like diving in there would be a good way to lose $$. Thoughts?

Also, I switched limit to no limit, so shout out if you want any thoughts on the transition

good luck!

Thanks, everybody.

Originally Posted by daven

I'm also interested in what you said about limit getting harder. I have played a little limit and was thinking about adding some back into my game palette (starting at 1/2) as there are aspects of limit that i like for improving NL play - but sounds as though it may not be worth my while playing that high to study? I mean, if i simply want to test and apply ideas i can do that lower, and if the games are really that tough at 1/2+ then it sounds like diving in there would be a good way to lose $$. Thoughts?

As your reason is for study purposes and not winrate, go ahead and give it a shot. If you've played there profitably before, you can probably do so again and of course you want to play at stakes that maintain your interest. Personally, I just found myself trying way too hard to maintain a 1bb/100 rate at 1/2+ after years of being 2bb/100. So, it's not that it's unbeatable or anything, it's just not what I'd become accustomed to and it no longer maintains my interest like it once did. I'll just suggest to you that game selection starts to get pretty crucial at 1/2. It won't be uncommon for you to find a table full of 20/15 types so if you can find something running at 30% VPIP, grab on (although it's still not the best indicator...there are some very good loose aggro types who do well post-flop).

All that said, I see a pretty vast difference in the quality of play between 1/2 and .50/1, particularly at Stars as the VPP whores seem to play no lower than 1/2. If you feel you're rusty and are concerned about getting back into limit, consider starting there first if the stakes will keep you interested.

Nice operation, I enjoyed reading your first posts. I started at 10NL after busting half of my roll at 1/2 LHE. My advice would be to read T&P and PNLHE. Learn about pot control and SPR, and then forget about them.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have T&P and was going to start there.

When flipping through the pre-flop section last night though, I was surprised at the number of hands they suggest to open limp with. Is this generally accepted or one of the things that is also ignored?

I'm not sure I can open limp. Seems icky.

At a table of call stations or maniacs you can open limp at 2nl imo esp at FR...they dont know what your trying to do....if its 6max I am incliuned to raise.

If the table is tight (relatively speaking), then raise, get a caller or two and they usually fold to cbets on the flop...

I commend you for starting at the bottom, you wont be there long.....

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Thanks for the suggestion. I have T&P and was going to start there.

When flipping through the pre-flop section last night though, I was surprised at the number of hands they suggest to open limp with. Is this generally accepted or one of the things that is also ignored?

I'm not sure I can open limp. Seems icky.

openlimping works against droolers that will stack off with top pair vs. a set in a limped pot or something

probably isn't optimal vs. regs
and yes, you will see regs at lower stakes from poor countries

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Thanks for the suggestion. I have T&P and was going to start there.

When flipping through the pre-flop section last night though, I was surprised at the number of hands they suggest to open limp with. Is this generally accepted or one of the things that is also ignored?

I'm not sure I can open limp. Seems icky.

i haven't read a poker book, but...
Don't open limp in NLHE, it's icky. Especially on sites with a bet pot button.

I'm going through some of my hand histories and trying to analyze my own play. Let me know if I'm doing a good job berating myself.

UTG was 50/10 in a 20 hand sample so I knew I was probably behind pre-flop but as the whole table was loose passive, I was nut peddling, expecting calls behind me.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($5.22)
BB ($2.46)
UTG ($0.96)
UTG+1 ($2.39)
MP1 ($1)
Hero (MP2) ($2.32)
CO ($2.75)
Button ($3)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, J
UTG bets $0.08, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.08, CO calls $0.08, Button calls $0.08, 1 fold, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.43) K, 7, 7 (5 players)
BB bets $0.10, UTG calls $0.10, Hero raises $0.40, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.33) 3 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.20, Hero raises $0.50, UTG calls $0.28 (All-In)

River: ($2.29) 10 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $2.29

Even with additional callers, pre-flop is probably questionable due to the gap. That was limit thinking leaking in. I should have bet more on the flop, probably pot sized. That would eliminate the flush draw and confirm for me if BB had a 7 or not. The turn played itself given how much he had behind. Thoughts?

I think he seems a little deep to call with KJ and play for stacks on the flop with top pair, especially multi-way where BB can shove over your flop raise with 7x and you'd be really unhappy

I would call OTB, of course, but I don't like having bad relative position and possibly bad absolute position (very likely that other people enter the pot behind you at NL2) so I would either not enter this pot or I would just flat the flop and proceed carefully and maybe bet the turn if checked to

with this action I would just assume you're behind UTG's range since he probably wouldn't open worse than KJ UTG and you're basically hoping he has AsQs or TT-QQ

nothing wrong with folding pretty cards in MP vs an UTG raise...

Made the transition from LHE to NLHE late last year myself. It's a great change. Not only are bigger winrates possible, but you've got the weapons to isolate and punish weak players. You only need one really exploitable player at a table in NLHE to profit. Like Daven said, if you have any questions about the transition, let us know. I started at 2nl when making the change too. You'll move up in a hurry.

Originally Posted by daven

nothing wrong with folding pretty cards in MP vs an UTG raise...

A big difference between LHE and NLHE right here. Easily dominated hands go way down in value in NLHE, even in position.

preflop is a pretty standard fold imo

np, pre-flop is easy to work on.

Here, I'm kind of stuck on the river. Opp was 38/9 and his AF was 0.5.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($1)
MP1 ($3.91)
MP2 ($5)
CO ($3.40)
Button ($1.84)
SB ($3.95)
Hero (BB) ($2.05)
UTG ($4.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 6
1 fold, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, 1 fold, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.10) 6, 8, 10 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.10, 3 folds, SB calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.30) J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.24, SB calls $0.24

River: ($0.78) 10 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

Played more than I thought I would this weekend. I'm just sort of meh about these results. I was up $16 at one point and with only $9 to go was thinking I'd breeze through 2NL in near record time. Ha!

1608 hands, +$4.81

NL Bankroll: $58.23

check river behind, you could make him fold like an 8, but he's never folding a J, 99
you could still win against a missed gutshot if he has A9 or something that he might call with two streets

yeah I thought I'd breeze through 200NL in record time too
but then I hit a standard moving up downswing for 10 buyins

You have enough sd value to check

1081 hands, +$6.46

NL Bankroll: $64.74

Slowly but surely, some fundamentals are becoming habit and I am pleased it is happening relatively quickly. Stack sizes were never really that important to me in cash games. I'd sort of pay attention if a guy was really short stacked or what a player bought in for, but it was more of an indicator of overall aptitude than anything. Unless a guy was close to all-in, stack size didn't matter much in limit. But I'm remembering to review stacks generally from time to time and am taking opp stacks into consderation when deciding whether to play and how to act.

Yay for remembering to do 1 of 918 things that are foreign to me!

638 hands, +$2.96

NL Bankroll: $68.35

I'm running pretty well at 24bb/100 and have been able to resist too much spew thus far. The last two sessions I've really been working on attacking and isolating poor players, both pre and post flop. Limit was really limiting in this respect, no pun intended. You can value bet in both games, of course, but profit comes so much quicker and in larger amounts from this practice in NL. I'm not writing anything that isn't extremely basic, I'd just not experienced it for myself so I'm impressed at just how powerful this is. In Limit, you really need to be a better player than probably half the table to really profit, not so true in NL thanks to this effect.

The big problem with picking on loose passives, however, is how quickly they leave.

A 6 buy-in night puts me just over $80 and graduates me to 4NL.
I lost a decent pot in my very last hand of the session with KK or the results would look just a bit better but I can't complain about being through 2NL in 8 days.



It's only 4500 hands so there isn't a lot I can say about my stats except that I intend to bring down my VPIP and raise my PFR at higher levels. I realize how safe these stats are but it was pretty intentional given how 2NL plays. I was aggressive when opening a pot but overlimping liberally as so many opportunities presented themselves at the tables I selected. I'm still feeling out raising hands and situations and want to work heavily on that at 4NL...I doubt 19/9 will work out well for much longer.

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

The last two sessions I've really been working on attacking and isolating poor players, both pre and post flop.

i realise this occasionally and work to improve it. Beat the regs for an ok rate and do your best to get more than your fair share of the fish dead money.

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

The big problem with picking on loose passives, however, is how quickly they leave.

yeah, but that's cos you stacked 'em.

Regarding your stats. You're still playing too many hands to do well at higher stakes, but over-limping and cold-calling can be a gold-mine in position at micros. You know this already. At Full Ring I don't think you want to be 3-betting any more than you are already.

I have an objection to "target stats", but anything from 18-15 to 12-9 can do pretty well all the way up. See DeanGlow's stats in his Full Ring post a while back for example.

I do tag dead money based entirely on stats over a very small sample, you'll be pleased to note that 19-9 isn't an auto-tag that's cos I'm trying to identify the money that everyone should be targeting before it has been at the table even one orbit - it makes it easier to spot who is isolating the dead money = easy 3-bet, and to iso it myself. It also guides when to stack off lighter than I normally would, and when to overbet

19.3/9.1 is probably not good because you're missing a lot of opportunities to isolate bad players by instead limping behind

any time I have fish at my table I become vicious I pretty much isolate bad players with any playable hand and totally rape them post-flop
btw you'd be tagged aquamarine by me on FTP
maybe orange if you showed me some good plays

Blech. I only played about 400 hands of break-even NLHE in August as life took over, particularly some construction I'm doing around the house. I did win one of two satties I played to the WCOOP $109 8-Game event though so am up around $100 on the month.

I should be able to do a little bit better in September but will revise my $25NL target to be the end of 2009. That's a bummer but I should have a nice new office space for poker by the end of all this constuction and will be able to stop playing on a laptop...so it's just progress of a different kind.

Slow progress simply due to lack of volume. Good results though and I will move up to 5NL.



I still don't have enough hands to do any real look at the stats. I'm continuing to overlimp/overcall too much pre but have made some progress compared to 2NL and I feel like I'm isolating better. Post-flop, I'm probably c-betting too much (93%), both HU and against multiple opps. I'm continuing on by c-betting the turn on hands I should clearly slow down on. At 5NL, I want to do a better job of identifying the reason why I'm betting before I do.

I've hit my target to move up to 10NL. Pretty consistent win-rate, hmm? I'll take it, especially since playing time is still hard to come by.

Frankly, some of this is luck...I'm showing a profit in both blinds (although maybe it goes both ways; with KK over 72 hands I'm showing a small loss and only a 79% win rate). I feel like I've come a very long way in only 13.5k hands though. I've cut out some tempting hands since previous levels, am putting more thought into c-betting, can 6-table very comfortably and seem to be picking spots well, especially in that I am able to stay away from opps I should be staying away from.

For 10NL, I want to find spots to raise more pre (get to 10%+ at least) and work on bet sizing post, particularly on the river. I've got a very positive red line on my graph, so combined with some of my other stats, I think I'm forcing opps out of pots early.

I'm definitely developing a style that seems to be working well and I don't want to force my play into a particular mold based on stats. But there is no question aggression is going to be more and more required at future levels...I'd rather play around with it where the play is cheap.