Low Buy In Poker - Learning to Win

Have you considered buying in on Bodog which pays 5 places on its SNG's which is great if you don't win that often and come in 4 or 5th alot like I do. I started making money right away there, when I couldn't win at Full Tilt. They have levels from 2 to 10 dollars that pay five places. I think it is a good place to start as your swings will be much less. Once you can win them consistently then you can go to other sites that pay the traditional 3 places and probably make a lot more.
Also look for the free SNG videos here and elsewhere that show how to play, they really made me more aggressive in these games, especially later as the blinds go up. I read everything about getting more aggressive and seemed to always do it at wrong times, watching and have good players explain their actions really made a difference in my understanding.

In response to parky's message yesterday, after failing at two SNGs last night, I watched a video on SNGs on the site here, it was one on 6.50 turbos, but I learned a few things about how that player used his aggression.

I found it interesting that any time it was folded to him in the big blinds he shoved. Now that may only be a turbo move, but it was interesting.

Also, once down to the bubble he shoved any A, K, suited cards, or just about anything on the button or in the blinds... if no one else shoved over.

So my question is this... is that the focus of the aggression that I am missing?

Should I be shoving when down to an M <10 when folded to in CO, Button or the blinds? Should I also be shoving a wider range in LP or blinds when only min raised from people who are playing tighter?

I'm trying to develop my aggression to a proper level, one that gets me more productive... or should I gather these facts are only for turbos?

excellent suggestion from parky, I guess I had just assumed that since you were posting here that you had watched those videos and read all of the sticky posts in the beginner and SnG forums. (if you haven't, that's your homework!) I actually go back and re-read them once or twice a year...

With an M<10 you want to be looking for blatant opportunities to steal blinds. If it's folded to you in the CO or BU, you need a pretty bad hand to NOT push. This goes for both types of SnGs. Sometimes you get caught with your pants down stealing with ~86o, and even then, you'll suckout some of the time also...

Now this:

Should I also be shoving a wider range in LP or blinds when only min raised from people who are playing tighter?

I dunno about this specific situation. When the blinds are getting high, and the M's are getting low, a min-raise usually says that they WANT action, and pushing with a wider range would be a mistake. It depends on your stacksize also, who covers who, how much of his stack did Mr. Tighty just commit with his min-raise... and so on...

Originally Posted by ChrisBCritter

Now this:

Should I also be shoving a wider range in LP or blinds when only min raised from people who are playing tighter?

I dunno about this specific situation. When the blinds are getting high, and the M's are getting low, a min-raise usually says that they WANT action, and pushing with a wider range would be a mistake. It depends on your stacksize also, who covers who, how much of his stack did Mr. Tighty just commit with his min-raise... and so on...

I have read all of the stickys previously, should probably re-read them, won't get that done before the FTR500 tonight, but maybe I'll get lucky.

The videos though, i find it hard to watch them sometimes, sometimes I feel like making my own but have no capture software.

Ok, the min raise issue... this one bites me a lot. I know they want action with the min raise or are looking to see a flop or buy a flop cheap... but when the M is low and the cards are marginal, it is often hard to not shove over on them. I'm trying to figure out if it is profitable in the long run, it seems to be about a break even so far... but I don't have hard facts to back that up.

So this morning I played three tourneys, after not playing for two days. Two $2 ones and both I got sucked out on with pretty good hands, one finishing 6th (Js in the hole) and the other 5th with AK.

The third though was a whim. I played a $1.25 tourney with the winner getting an entry to the $10 MSOP tourney this afternoon. I'm about 8 minutes from start time and there are over 4000 players at this point.

So it should be intresting, never been in anything close to this so far... we'll see what happens.

Finished in the low 700's out of 5100 people in the MSOP Event #15 on Sunday. Ok, this was the most frustrating tourney I've ever seen.

Not the play mind you, that was what I expected... THE SOFTWARE! FTP... they had some serious issues with their software on Sunday, costing me what I feel was a great shot at ITM. After the tourney started, it was sluggish, I can give them that, with 5100 people in I can see that being a server load that has to lighten as the number of contestants lightens... after the first break I expected it to get better... it didn't.

At the second break I was getting near to Push/Fold range, hanging on to my seat and doing OK though starting to struggle a bit. That is when the software went to crap. I started not being able to see my hole cards nor any buttons on the screen. Refreshing or closing then re-opening the tourney page didn't help. I figured it was my ISP, so I rebooted my router and my computer, all to no avail. I asked the others at the table, on the occasion when I could hit something (it put me as away and wouldn't let me click any buttons) and all were having trouble...

By the time I got the software loaded onto my wife's PC and booted it up, straight to the web, after rebooting the router/cable modem many times, found the connection to the web was stable, was on their end... it finally got better, but I was down to 450 chips... against stacks all >8,000 and blinds at 150/300 ante I think 50. I kept pushing then and suprisingly worked it back up to 4500 chips in the long run.

I then got knocked out on a call I probably shouldn't have made at 250/500 with antes...

But all in all I think the fact that I got knocked down and forced into sit out when I watched... literally watched TT, JJ and KK go by... with no ability to bet.

Frustrating... thank god I didn't pay for it or I would be screaming in FTP's face.

I've spent the last few months attempting to build a roll and start moving up in stakes. I have played at the 5.50 level and the .05/.10 NL Ring games, and to be honest, I've lost interest in the $1 and $2 SNGs.

I just think the variance is too high in these low buy in SNG games to make them worthwhile. You play a good game and get sucked out on by guys who have no idea what they are doing, just shoving with anything... even early on. Or maybe I have no idea what I am doing.

So I'm considering a move. I am thinking about moving to ring games exclusively or moving to $5 buy in SNGs, playing only one game at a time. I'm also considering breaking down and buying SNGWiz, but I don't understand the use of it effectively yet... I see people talking about putting in ranges for players then practicing against them, I guess I understand that and would get it better with a better in-depth review of the threads on that tool.

Overall, i think I've stagnated. My personal life has some issues right now, I think my game has reached a certain plateau and I don't know how to get past it, which leads me to bad plays and risky moves, which brings me back down to stupid levels in my BR.

Current BR: around $165.

Plan: Unknown.. please give me your thoughts?

Or should I just give up poker and try to learn to drink scotch?

dnt buy wiz, get sngpt if your staying with sngs. personally id just switch to cash.

this comes from someone who made the switch.

moving up because variance is too much is retarded. As you move up the players get better. As the players gets better your ROI decreases. As that happens variance increases.

Whatever, move to ring.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

dnt buy wiz, get sngpt if your staying with sngs. personally id just switch to cash.

this comes from someone who made the switch.

i did also and never looked back.

I 3rd that - scraping around the low buy-in Sn'Gs is just painful.

Get on Stars and play $2nl or whatever your bankroll will allow...you'll learn how to play poker, build a nice bankroll and never look back at Sn'Gs. I wasted about 1 and half years playing those things...just the thought of playing a Sn'G bores me now....

Tried out two things last night, Tournament Analyzer, didn't care for it, mainly I think because I didn't understand the analysis it was providing, with pot odds displayed on a SNG and then hand odds... made some bad calls trying to follow it, maybe I just am not familiar enough with it.

The other thing was I played cash for an hour, ended up $1.85 ahead, missed out on one really good hand, but that was me being results oriented. I'm stuggling with what hands to open with in cash, sometimes passing on what would be a marginal hand in a SNG for what might be good enough to open in cash... but that will come.

BR: Still around 165.

Plan: Probably not playing tonight, Thursday though I will have the house to myself... going to play cash games, try to put in about 2-3 hours of solid play. Any suggestions on what to do that way are appreciated (oh, btw, I'm only on FTP, want to build my roll there before I try other sites).

Hi there Monty. I understand the feelings you are having. Just kinda feel stuck, wheels are spinning, but not getting anywhere. That was my entire month of may.

I think it would be good for you to move to cash now also, HOWEVER, you've got to move to a site that has lower limits than FTP. You're roll is boderline too small for $10NL, AND the rake at FTP for that limit is HORRIBLE. Even as a decent winner at that limit, you'll be stuck there forever. You already don't like the software! Just cashout and move on over to stars $5NL. They'll treat you right!

NOW the fun begins!

Ok, I understand.

Everyone has been pushing me towards STARS... I can sign in there and probably get going with rakeback and also a bonus plan, both of which I missed out on for FTP.

Give me suggestions for what you use or recommend for STARS for the bonuses and rakeback, also if I should sign up with a tool like PT3 when I do my initial deposit...

I think small buyin STTs are a great way to build a roll myself .

Microstakes cash games at Party are ridiculously soft at certain times of day. Might be worth a look

Originally Posted by Biglines

Microstakes cash games at Party are ridiculously soft at certain times of day. Might be worth a look

Unfortunately, he's in the USA and can't play at party.

There are no Rakeback deals available for PokerStars, and the sign-on bonus is fairly weak ($50 max). The trade off is game selection, no other site will have as many games at so many limits going at all times of the day. Sign up through FTR here: http://www.flopturnriver.com/reviews...PokerStars.php and there will sometimes be FTR exclusive tourneys that you can participate in.

PT3 has a 60 day trial period I believe. It wouldn't be a bad idea to use that at first. It's a hefty purchase though when the time comes ($89.99) I haven't looked at prices for HM (Holdem Manager) which is a direct competitor, but I suspect it's probably less. There is a thread in the Poker Tools forum about this I think.

Well everyone, looks like Stars is a no go for tonight, my best night to start a new site and game.

None of my credit cards will work. A check won't clear for days... so I'm SOL.

Stupid really.

Ok, managed to get my account setup at PokerStars.

I heard you all say that it is fishy and no one knows how to play at the micro stakes levels... well I must have run into all of the pros last night.

Starting BR: 50.00
4 hours of play last night, ran ok but with KK getting coolered by AA, sets ruined by full houses twice, two pair beat by two higher pair on the turn/river...
If variance has a name she is 'noob at pokerstars'

Ending BR: $42.00

I see the potential there but I also have to start playing in 'ring mode' not SNG mode... made some dumb moves but all in all I did ok. Hopefully after I get back from camping I can make some money there. I will be on today but gone then until Monday.

Welcome to PokerStars. The weekend is when all the crazies come out. Don't sweat the coolers, it'll come around, I'm quite sure that your game will work well in Cash.

Quick question; Why is your Starting BR only $50? I'm guessing you haven't got the money off of FullTilt yet then?

Also, your BR is now a little too low for $5NL, you're gonna have to play with the droolers at $2NL! Don't bother bluffing much, you won't need to. Just bet your made hands hard (be willing to felt TPTK+), and you'll see the BR rise.

Yeah, getting the money of FTP will take a bit, I bought in for the minimum, playing .01/.02 NL Cash games. I haven't been bluffing but have seen some really crappy beats in the first few rounds. I will do better, but will have to suffer through the first week with little weekend time, maybe Sunday night after camping.

I'm trying to get a grip on my starting range from EP and MP in cash games, I find myself opening with crap... also at the .01/.02 level a 4xbb raise doesn't even register with these guys, so you apparently have to go to 10xBB to get isolation, and re-raising someone doesn't seem to matter either... interesting so far. I'll probably leave my money on FTP or at least part of it until I'm sure I'm leaving there... the $50 on Stars, I hope to turn to $100 by the end of the month if I get a good heater running.

Ok, so played about 1 hour last night and about 2 hours on Sunday, Stars .01/.02 NLHE with two tables running at once both time periods.

Sunday was about break even, up a little down a little.

Last night, caught two pair AQ-flop after raising pre-flop, two callers, turn was junk, rainbow board, one caller bets $1.00, easy call for me, other folds... river is junk also, he shoves, I call, easy win with two pair. He had an ace.

Other table... things were going well, hadn't seen a good hand in a while, got one limper in front and have QQ in CO, bet 6xBB (.12) and caught one caller... flop is all low cards... caller bets .88 - that should have put me on notice but this guy had shoved over A-Q for A-high board against heavy resistance and lost, had been leading out with A-rag, felt low pair was invicible... etc. So i shoved over on him... and he turns up pair of kings.

So for the night, won some, lost some.

BR: 45.00

BR: $40.00

Struggling a bit. I know I'm playing total goobs at the .01/.02 level, but have caught some of the few grinders I think this week. Last night, made what I felt were some good moves with premium hands (QQ, A-Q, etc) but ran into major resistance with them. One out of three I won... the others were met with AA or KK...

Been struggling a bit with understanding the difference between cash and SNG... I 'understand' the difference but can't seem to get the mental 'push' I need in the right direction. I 'understand' aggression and it's value, that was obvious last night 3-betting into someone with smaller pairs, who couldn't let go, then finally folded on the river. I get it... I think I do at least, but I can't seem to effectively apply it.

I'm not sure if it is a patience issue or a piss-poor ability to read players issue.

Patience young (old ) padawan...the force is strong within you.

Have you watched some of the cash game videos here? Maybe they can give you an idea of what you might be missing.

Also, have you downloaded the trial version of PT3 yet? There is also a new beta that you can use also. Gathering statistics on yourself can definitely help you focus on your play! And give us a way to help guide you!

Do you have any questionable hands over the last few days? Any hero folds or calls? Let's see em!

Edit: Also, how many tables are you playing?

OLD? Hey now.. that wasn't nice.

No, I have to upload a few hands tonight when I get home, history is on the PC at home. I am playing one to two tables at once (to avoid boredom at one table, two I can still watch the play and do some reading of players)...

I did watch one of the videos yesterday, someone 4-tabling, well, I see their hand selection is all over the place, playing primarily position, which I'm trying to do, except when a premium hand then I'm playing from any position, they were very dependent on the table being tight... something I seem to run into for a while then the tables get crazy. I am also running into people who shove everything. Every hand or every Ace.

I'll try to d/l PT3 tonight, I bought a new PC and it came Monday, so I have it up and running and will be able to possibly re-trial some of the tools. I'll do the PT3 download tonight if possible.

Old... fricking fracking fricking...

Posted under new topic, some hands I'm wondering about... sorry, wrong button

Here's the post I was trying to put up yesterday:

Hand 1

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($5.83)
UTG ($3.71)
MP1 ($2.26)
MP2 ($2.75)
CO ($3.17)
Button ($4.97)
SB ($3.76)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
2 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.06) , , (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: ($0.06) (3 players)
SB bets $0.04, Hero folds, MP2 calls $0.04.

River: ($0.14) (2 players)
SB bets $0.12, MP2 calls $0.12.

Final Pot: $0.38

Table was loose but not aggressive, lot of limpers in a lot of pots. I remember losing this hand but not all of the circumstances.


Hand 2 was much better...
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($2.87)
Hero ($5.80)
MP3 ($2.97)
CO ($3.66)
Button ($2.23)
SB ($2.16)
BB ($3.60)
UTG ($4.97)
UTG+1 ($4.02)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with , .
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 4 folds, BB calls $0.06.

Flop: ($0.17) , , (2 players)
BB bets $0.1, Hero calls $0.10.

Turn: ($0.37) (2 players)
BB bets $0.22, Hero calls $0.22.

River: ($0.81) (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $0.81

Hand 3
- This AQ combo, not so good...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($5.45)
Hero ($5.21)
UTG ($2.97)
UTG+1 ($3.89)
MP1 ($1.68)
MP2 ($3)
CO ($4.90)
Button ($3.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , . MP2 posts a blind of $0.02.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.1, MP2 (poster) calls $0.08, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.08.

Flop: ($0.31) , , (3 players)
Hero bets $0.2, MP1 calls $0.20, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($0.71) (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.22, Hero calls $0.22.

River: ($1.15) (2 players)

Final Pot: $1.15

This one didn't work out well...
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($3.07)
Hero ($4.39)
CO ($4.86)
Button ($4.90)
SB ($5.87)
BB ($4.50)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T, T.
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.09, 1 fold.

Flop: ($0.22) 9, 4, 8 (2 players)
SB bets $0.1, Hero raises to $0.2, SB calls $0.10.

Turn: ($0.62) 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.62, SB calls $0.62.

River: ($1.86) K (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $1.86

And it didn't get much better, stopped shortly after.

Working on d/ling PT3 now.

Ok, got PT3 downloaded, installed but it is a lot to digest. Imported hand histories, started trying to resolve by date, ran into a few glitches with not understanding the software enough... what stats would you be most interested in seeing from PT?

Interesting choices of hands.

1) JTo This is completely standard? What is the question? Even if villians showed down bluffs here, there's nothing to say...
2) AQo WTF? BET BET BET!!! Raise that flop, he may be betting the FD, and you have a strong hand here IN POSITION. As played, turn call is ok, but I would still like a raise. River, are you serious? BET! You have a FULL HOUSE, the only thing you are losing to is 44 or A5, if they have that, whipdee doo.
3) AQs This was fine, good actually. I like every street (assuming you check/folded on river)
4) TT Don't Min-raise the flop. put a real bet in there; raise to $0.4 or so. Turn bet is great with your extra OESD outs, and river check-behind is perfect.

2-tabling is fine, I wouldn't do more than that until you are more comfortable (and winning). When the tables start getting loose, you need to be more patient, and let the cards come to you. Let me offer up a couple guidelines (I hate the word "rules"... )
1) Until your bankroll is larger, you need to buy in for 100BB ($2) not the max ($5). You need to minimize the effects of any variance you experience while you are learning how cash works.
2) Don't slowplay. If you have a strong hand BET, and bet HARD! These droolers down here nearly ALWAYS think you are bluffing. On that same theme:
3) Don't bluff much. They like to call down with bottom pair a lot...
4) Read up on PT3 and how it's used. I'll give you a quick rundown below, but there are lots of better threads regarding PokerTracker here. (Hint: do a search! )

Don't worry about filtering PT3 yet. We can just look at the raw data for now. The biggest stats that we want to look at first are:
VP$IP (Voluntarily Put Money in Pot)
PFR (Pre Flop Raise)
Total AF (Aggression Factor)
These are the default stats in the HUD (do you want to use this also?) and are a good basis to build off of once you understand them.

Hand 1 (I think I put in the wrong hand)

As towards the HUD, I did use it last night, it is interesting, showed me one player who called every pre-flop... saw every single flop for 29 hands. And then he was broke.

I will try to gather some data tonight from PT3 and then get some hands up here from last night or from tonight before I turn in if I play any.

I'm thinking of starting a new blog post, focused solely on the cash game, so we all don't have to fish through so many posts to go through... I didn't do any work last night but had some thoughts on starting out and starting over. I want to contribute something of value to the site as well, potentially ending in a true beginners guide for what worked for me from step one through big bucks... let me think on that for a bit... and yes, I'm kind of bored at work.

That may not be a bad idea. You'll have to come up with a witty name also!

The changing of the Avatar is a nice start! Wowza!