Mission: Become a poker player - via FTR

I think that would be a good experiment.

Greg Raymer said it:
Play fewer hands
Bluff less

I play at the low levels and honestly guys, I hardly ever bluff. There are really only two situations I regularly employ a bluff in:
1. The dynamics of the tourney say my M demands some serious action and I shove with cards that I may have no business shoving wth (but I play really tight for several orbits before doing this).
2. I'm in a hand with someone who has no balls (whether figurative or literal really doesn't matter).

Slevin since you are a cash game player, #1 should never apply to you.
So I agree, try doing a whole session with zero bluffing, that would be boring and good for your br.

Originally Posted by Kijjo

So I agree, try doing a whole session with zero bluffing, that would be boring and good for your br.

This. Give it an honest effort Slev and let us know how it goes.

OK guys here are the results for my attempt at a zero bluff session. I played for close to two hours and played about 400 hands. I carried on with the standard c-bets, but apart from that if I didn't have a hand I didn't bet. I think I did well on the whole it wasn't easy but I played as solidly as I could. The last hand of the session was the only time that I bluffed I think - and I took it for what it was a sign that I was getting despondent with the session and starting to let the bad habbits creep back in, so quit the session straight after that hand - the hand I'm speaking about is hand 3 below and the villian was 53/20.

Down 2.5 buy ins for the session which is a bit dissapointing but I think I'm heading in the right direction by following everyones advice if I keep doing that I can only improve. As I'm not fit to judge what hands warrant attention I've posted my ten biggest losers/winners as they are the hands that had the biggest effect on my session. I'd really love your feedback and comments on these so I can improve and start playing more winning sessions. Thanks!

Any comments very appreciated.

Top 10 losing hands.

1.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($1.22)
MP1 ($4.96)
MP2 ($0.93)
MP3 ($14.24)
CO ($1.59)
Hero (Button) ($2)
SB ($2.11)
BB ($3.46)
UTG ($3.91)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K
UTG calls $0.02, 3 folds, MP3 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.12, 2 folds, UTG raises to $0.22, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.44, UTG raises to $0.66, Hero raises to $2 (All-In), UTG calls $1.34

Flop: ($4.05) 4, 5, 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($4.05) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($4.05) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.05 | Rake: $0.20

Results in white below:
Hero mucked K, K (two pair, Kings and sevens).
UTG had A, A (two pair, Aces and sevens).
Outcome: UTG won $3.85

2.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (3 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($3.50)
BB ($1.33)
Hero (Button) ($2.28)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K
Hero raises to $0.10, 1 fold, BB raises to $1.33 (All-In), Hero calls $1.23

Flop: ($2.67) 5, A, 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($2.67) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($2.67) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $2.67 | Rake: $0.10

Results in white below:
Hero mucked K, K (two pair, Aces and Kings).
BB had A, K (three of a kind, Aces).
Outcome: BB won $2.57

3. DAMN IT. Not meant to be bluffing - this was the last hand I played of the session.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($2.17)
Hero (MP1) ($2.59)
MP2 ($3.03)
MP3 ($4.52)
CO ($3.95)
Button ($4.87)
SB ($2.38)
BB ($6.92)
UTG ($3.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, Q
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.09, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.52) 8, 2, 3 (5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, 3 folds

Turn: ($0.64) 10 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.14, Hero calls $0.14

River: ($0.92) 6 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.40, Hero raises to $0.80, UTG raises to $1.20, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.52 | Rake: $0.10

Results in white below:
UTG didn't show
Outcome: UTG won $2.42

4.I should have put this down with hindsight I guess, this wasn't an instictive slevin lets put all the chips in the middle - I saw he was shortstacked, and thought he might be bluffing me - If I raised I was sure he was going to shove with his shortstack on the final raise so thought the best play if not folding was to put him all in.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($2.16)
MP1 ($0.91)
MP2 ($4.40)
MP3 ($5.11)
CO ($0.97)
Button ($1.14)
SB ($0.98)
Hero (BB) ($2.11)
UTG ($3.14)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J
7 folds, SB calls $0.01, Hero raises to $0.10, SB calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.20) 7, 5, A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.18, SB raises to $0.36, Hero raises to $2.01 (All-In), SB calls $0.52 (All-In)

Turn: ($1.96) 10 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($1.96) 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $1.96 | Rake: $0.05

Results in white below:
SB had A, 7 (full house, sevens over Aces).
Hero mucked J, J (two pair, Jacks and sevens).
Outcome: SB won $1.91

5.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($5.01)
Hero (SB) ($2.47)
BB ($0.97)
UTG ($5.07)
UTG+1 ($1.82)
MP1 ($0.90)
MP2 ($2.69)
MP3 ($5.61)
CO ($3.69)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, A
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.04, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.14, 2 folds, CO calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) 8, Q, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.30, CO calls $0.30

Turn: ($0.92) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

River: ($1.32) J (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.62, Hero folds

Total pot: $1.32 | Rake: $0.05

Results in white below:
CO didn't show
Outcome: CO won $1.28

6.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($7.35)
BB ($3.27)
UTG ($3.05)
UTG+1 ($1.48)
MP1 ($1.43)
MP2 ($1.34)
CO ($1.84)
Hero (Button) ($1.97)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 9
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.23) 8, K, 8 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.20, MP1 calls $0.20

Turn: ($0.63) 2 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks

River: ($0.63) 7 (2 players)
MP1 bets $0.64, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.63 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
MP1 didn't show
Outcome: MP1 won $0.63

7.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($5.16)
Button ($0.91)
SB ($14.19)
Hero (BB) ($2.04)
UTG ($2.13)
MP1 ($3.58)
MP2 ($3.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, 4
2 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.10) Q, 3, 5 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.02, CO calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.02

Turn: ($0.16) 9 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.18, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.18

River: ($0.52) A (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.02, Hero folds

Total pot: $0.52 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
MP2 didn't show
Outcome: MP2 won $0.52

8.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($2.50)
Button ($0.94)
SB ($2.36)
BB ($5.45)
UTG ($0.78)
Hero (MP1) ($1.97)
MP2 ($2.83)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, J
UTG calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.10, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.18, 1 fold, SB calls $0.17, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.58) 5, 8, 7 (3 players)
SB bets $0.18, Hero folds, CO raises to $0.42, SB calls $0.24

Turn: ($1.42) 10 (2 players)
SB checks, CO bets $0.90, SB raises to $1.76 (All-In), CO calls $0.86

River: ($4.94) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.94 | Rake: $0.20

Results in white below:
SB had 10, 10 (three of a kind, tens).
CO mucked A, 10 (one pair, tens).
Outcome: SB won $4.74

9.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($5.12)
UTG+1 ($0.96)
MP1 ($14.20)
MP2 ($1.43)
Hero (CO) ($2)
Button ($2.10)
SB ($3.54)
BB ($3.95)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 10
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: ($0.09) 6, Q, 9 (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04, 2 folds

Turn: ($0.17) 8 (2 players)
MP2 bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04

River: ($0.25) A (2 players)
MP2 bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04

Total pot: $0.33 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
MP2 had 9, J (one pair, nines).
Hero mucked 9, 10 (one pair, nines).
Outcome: MP2 won $0.33

10.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($4.84)
Hero (UTG) ($2.57)
MP1 ($1.59)
MP2 ($1.60)
CO ($0.70)
Button ($8.20)
SB ($1.94)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6, 6
Hero calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Button raises to $0.06, SB raises to $0.10, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.08, MP2 calls $0.08, Button calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.42) 10, 9, 9 (4 players)
SB bets $0.02, Hero calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, Button raises to $0.30, SB raises to $0.58, Hero folds, 1 fold, Button calls $0.28

Turn: ($1.62) K (2 players)
SB bets $0.26, Button raises to $0.88, SB calls $0.62

River: ($3.38) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $0.38 (All-In), Button calls $0.38

Total pot: $4.14 | Rake: $0.15

Results in white below:
Button mucked 3, 3 (two pair, nines and threes).
SB had 9, A (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: SB won $3.99

Top 10 winning hands.

1.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($5)
UTG ($4.82)
UTG+1 ($6.34)
MP1 ($5.39)
MP2 ($1.34)
CO ($0.18)
Hero (Button) ($1.97)
SB ($1.28)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, 7
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02, SB raises to $0.04, BB calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02

Flop: ($0.16) J, 4, 7 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, SB calls $0.06, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.34) Q (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 bets $0.12, Hero raises to $0.36, SB calls $0.36, 1 fold

River: ($1.18) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.50, 1 fold

Total pot: $1.18 | Rake: $0.05

Results in white below:
Hero didn't show Q, 7 (two pair, Queens and sevens).
Outcome: Hero won $1.13

2.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($4.75)
MP1 ($4.68)
MP2 ($4.62)
MP3 ($3.08)
CO ($0.94)
Button ($1.36)
SB ($0.30)
Hero (BB) ($2.56)
UTG ($0.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A
UTG raises to $0.06, UTG+1 calls $0.06, MP1 calls $0.06, 2 folds, CO calls $0.06, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.27, 3 folds, CO calls $0.21

Flop: ($0.73) Q, A, 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.73, 1 fold

Total pot: $0.73 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
Hero didn't show
Outcome: Hero won $0.73

3.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($5)
Hero (CO) ($2.28)
Button ($1.65)
SB ($1.46)
BB ($0.73)
UTG ($2.84)
UTG+1 ($8.21)
MP1 ($2.93)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, A
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 (poster) checks, Hero raises to $0.12, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, MP2 (poster) calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.41) 6, Q, A (3 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.41) J (3 players)
UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.40, 2 folds

Total pot: $0.41 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
Hero didn't show
Outcome: Hero won $0.41

4.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($7.34)
SB ($3.25)
BB ($3)
UTG ($1.48)
UTG+1 ($1.76)
MP1 ($1.34)
MP2 ($1.84)
Hero (CO) ($2)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, Button calls $0.08, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.19) 10, 3, 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.18, Button calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.55) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.55, 1 fold

Total pot: $0.55 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
Hero didn't show
Outcome: Hero won $0.55

5.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($2)
Hero (BB) ($2.16)
UTG ($3.27)
UTG+1 ($4.56)
MP1 ($4.94)
MP2 ($2.44)
CO ($6.92)
Button ($3.58)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, 3
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Button calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.11) J, J, J (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks

Turn: ($0.11) 8 (5 players)
Hero bets $0.05, UTG calls $0.05, 3 folds

River: ($0.21) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.12, UTG calls $0.12

Total pot: $0.45 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
Hero had J, 3 (four of a kind, Jacks).
UTG mucked 9, 8 (full house, Jacks over eights).
Outcome: Hero won $0.45

6.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($2)
Hero (Button) ($1.93)
SB ($3.14)
BB ($4.66)
UTG ($1.21)
UTG+1 ($2.49)
MP1 ($6.86)
MP2 ($3.66)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6, 6
UTG calls $0.02, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.12, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.29) 3, 3, J (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.29) 8 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.06, Hero calls $0.06

River: ($0.41) 5 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $0.41 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
Hero had 6, 6 (two pair, sixes and threes).
UTG had 9, 10 (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero won $0.41

7.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($0.77)
Hero (BB) ($1.90)
UTG ($1)
UTG+1 ($1.75)
MP1 ($1.46)
MP2 ($0.85)
MP3 ($2.90)
CO ($8.27)
Button ($2.99)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9, A
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 raises to $0.04, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.04, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.02, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.15) 2, Q, 8 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 bets $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.31) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks

River: ($0.31) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.31, 1 fold

Total pot: $0.31 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
Hero didn't show 9, A (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: Hero won $0.31

8.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($2.09)
SB ($0.98)
BB ($1.71)
UTG ($1.46)
UTG+1 ($0.73)
MP1 ($2.90)
MP2 ($8.27)
CO ($2.99)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, Q
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 raises to $0.06, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.06, 1 fold, BB calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.25) 9, 7, J (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.22, 3 folds

Total pot: $0.25 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
Hero didn't show
Outcome: Hero won $0.25


9.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($1.99)
SB ($0.70)
BB ($1)
UTG ($4.86)
MP ($6.25)
CO ($4.86)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7, A
1 fold, MP calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: ($0.09) A, 7, 9 (4 players)
BB checks, MP checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.10, 1 fold, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.29) Q (2 players)
1 fold

Total pot: $0.29 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
Hero didn't show
Outcome: Hero won $0.29

10.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($5.26)
BB ($0.78)
UTG ($14.03)
UTG+1 ($5.74)
Hero (MP1) ($1.90)
MP2 ($2.18)
CO ($3.77)
Button ($3.56)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, A
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 2 folds, Button calls $0.08, 1 fold, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.25) K, 4, 9 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.20, 2 folds

Total pot: $0.25 | Rake: $0

Results in white below:
Hero didn't show
Outcome: Hero won $0.25

Hey Slevin! Tough break being dealt Cowboys to someone else's Rockets. That happens to me/ everyone sometimes, but twice in one session would make me adopt a red-headed child to beat. I've read you have issues with tilting, so if you kept your composure here, kudos.

Now for the times you get dealt Cowboys and the Ace hits on the flop, you've gotta ease up buddy. Fire the c-bet and try to represent big slick, but if they play back at you, you've gotta act like Jennifer Harmon in that commercial "So you've paired that ace, huh" and toss those bad boys into the muck.

You've gotta remember that it is only ONE pair. Would you make the same play if you had K9 on an AKx flop? Actually, you'd be better off with the K9 had as you'd have a better chance to improve. This might be a tight-passive mantra, but for big pots you need big hands. I try not to stack off on only one pair, but if I do it is the top one. You know my game isn't the best in town so take it for what it's worth.

Good luck. I'm rooting for ya!

Your last 10 bad hands were comedicely bad, these are more sad bad.

bad #6 is good
bad #8, why would ever post this hand? so I stopped reading

{edit, oops I meant 8 not 9}

Much better! You will get paid on your good hands, just be patient!

Try it again but:

Originally Posted by ChrisBCritter

Don't bet on the flop without TPTK or better.

Seriously, a C-Bet is a bluff, and for now DON'T!!

Losers:
Hand 1: KK Standard Cooler. The only advice to offer here is a larger 4-bet Pre, Doesn't matter too much though.
Hand 2: KK Ugh, I hate the days when cowboys or ladies aren't good to me Pre-flop
Hand 3: AQs Flop call is ok, but might as well fold the turn, definitely fold the river. Please Notice that my advice would be significantly different if we were allowing bluffing in your game right now.
Hand 4: JJ A Check/Minraise is nearly always better than TPTK. Recognize this for the easy fold! You don't have TPTK or better on this flop, check-behind.
Hand 5: AKo Fold turn easily. It's a small bet, but you beat nearly NOTHING in his range. Think about that. Also, you bet on the flop without TPTK
Hand 6: A9o Not TPTK. Don't bet! Pre-flop is ok, but unneccesary. Until you get better, I would actually prefer that you fold this!
Hand 7: 64o Fold turn easily to the overbet. Pot odds are destroyed, don't chase! But CALL RIVER!!! believe it or not, you are getting amazing odds, and the 1 time you win when he shows 24o will make up for the 20 times you call and lose...
Hand 8: AJs This is fine.
Hand 9: 9Ts Also fine.
Hand 10: 66 Fold preflop to the 3-bet, you are in a pickle if the Button 4-bets here, and just bled off more chips. Fold flop to the min-bet. You are OOP with a very weak holding against 3 villians, don't chase your 2-outer after the flop!

Winners:
Hand 1: Q7s With only 1 limper in front of you, fold this Preflop. GET THE BASICS DOWN FIRST, a potential Q-high flush (what you are calling for) is dangerous when playing for stacks. Rest of the hand is fine.
Hand 2: AKo Standard. You will get paid eventually.
Hand 3: AQs Bet the flop about 1/2 pot, don't slowplay your monsters! Betting pot on the turn only gets worse hands to fold, bet smaller for value!
Hand 4: QQ Standard, good! Make them pay to chase, you'll get paid eventually, really!
Hand 5: J3o What a monster flop. Try to Zeebo (open-push) the river in this situation sometimes, people can't fold a full-house (even at much higher buy-ins)
Hand 6: 66 This is fine.
Hand 7: A9s Bet the turn, try to build a pot! Bet for VALUE on the river, betting the pot just folds people with weaker hands! let them call, or even better, induce a bluff by betting small!
Hand 8: JQs Close to TPTK, so I'll let it slide...
Hand 9: A7s This is good. no problems.
Hand 10: AA Standard. You'll get paid eventually!! I promise.

Overall, Much MUCH better. Just unfortuate variance with your two KK hands. Be patient and try again!!

"3. DAMN IT. Not meant to be bluffing - this was the last hand I played of the session. " If it helps, I would be shocked if this worked!

Originally Posted by ChrisBCritter

Winners:
Hand 1: Q7s With only 1 limper in front of you, fold this Preflop. GET THE BASICS DOWN FIRST, a potential Q-high flush (what you are calling for) is dangerous when playing for stacks. Rest of the hand is fine.

What should his button limping range be in this spot?

Those comments are really helpful from all of you thanks, a500 thanks for reinforcing the futitlity of my bluffing! I just need to cut even those last 1 or 2 hands out of the sessions now as they can really impact my bottom line, I'm going to do that, thankyou. Swig sad bad Vs comedy bad - progress of sorts, thanks for taking the time to read I appreciate it. Nibbles it's great to know your rooting for me thank you =)

Chris once again thanks for the time you've spent going over my hands - I can't thank you enough, I've re-read your reply a couple of times and am now going through adding notes to my A4 sheet that I play with to remind me of the key points for my next session.

Lessons learnt from your comments.

1. Don't go in with implied odds type hands against a pot which is already being 3bet if you're out of position, I'm going to be facing more betting on the flop.

2. If I flop a monster bet half pot, don't slowplay it.

3. Watch out for check or minraises, read it as a sign of strength not weakness.

4. Don't chase ever.. I know this but it's still creeping into my game. Don't chase.

5. Tighten up late limping range.

It's great to know I'm improving from you guys comments so that more than makes up for the negative buy in session. I'm looking forward to starting the next session now which is something I wasn't before I had your replies!

Two more sessions left today, i'll continue the focus on not bluffing - and also remove c-bets completey, unless holding TPTK+

thanks again

The most importing things are that 1-5 are simply mantras, you need to be able to say that you understand the underlying reasons for all of them. (Though 3 is really just from experience and not really demonstrative of any deeper understanding)

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

2. If I flop a monster bet at least half pot, don't slowplay it.

Drawey flops need more than 1/2 PSB. Especially if it's multi-way.

Here are my thoughts on why I should be following those mantras, hopefully someone will be able to point out any floors in my reasoning.

1. Don't go in with implied odds type hands against a pot which is already being 3bet if you're out of position, I'm going to be facing more betting on the flop.

I only have an 11.8% chance of flopping trips or quads when holding a pair, and a 10.4% chance of flopping an OESD from two S/C. So S/C are definately not worth playing as I only have a 10% chance of flopping the potential to draw to a winning hand, and then it's very likely I'm not going to get the chance to draw to that hand as I'll be facing more betting on the flop. The PP's fair better but still if I'm facing a 3bet pot, I'll be putting at least about .12 in preflop which means the effective stack in the pot needs to be atleast 15x this amount according to Rentons effective stack advice - I think i might have the odds in the effective stack sometimes, but I'm sure there's something I'm missing which'll complete the reasoning here.

2. If I flop a monster bet half pot, don't slowplay it.

Not as sure on this as I used to be of the mentality of being worried of scaring people out of the pot and still am slightly. I think the concept behind this is maximising value and if I start betting on the flop I've got more streets to get value in. I guess this must be more ev than hoping the turn would give the others in the pot a chance to connect and then make it more likely that they'll play back - which is basically what I was doing if I think back to my old thinking on this.

3. Watch out for check or minraises, read it as a sign of strength not weakness.

Not too sure about the reasoning behind this, but you mention this is more learnt from experience so I'll just take this for granted now.

4. Don't chase ever.. I know this but it's still creeping into my game. Don't chase

.

Poker is a long term game, If the pot is laying you the correct price to continue and you do, in the long run you'll profit. If you try to cling onto a hand against unfavourable odds in the long term you will lose money, regardless of if you win the hand or not. This is why it's so important never to stay in a hand if you're not getting the right odds.

5. Tighten up late limping range.

I think the idea here is that the cards I play preflop are like my investment. I'm investing my chips in them, I want my investments in sound stock. The higher the % of the card strength the better it is as stock. For now I don't need to get fancy so just need to play high stock cards.

--
Thanks for getting me to think about those rules in more detail a500. If there are any holes in my thinking (which I'm sure there are) or any complete misunderstandings I'd love to hear them.

- thanks again everyone for all your feedback, Gary.

Hey Slevin, wonder if u remember me or not, I took a break after school started, but now that i'm settled I'm gonna get back into it. Just had a session today actually and got me 4 BI's.

anyways, happy that ur improving now...

are you playing 2NL btw? well as long as your stuck on the micro stakes, just makeure you play really tight, most of your money will come form the monster hands (AA and KK), get max value from these against different players.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by ChrisBCritter

Winners:
Hand 1: Q7s With only 1 limper in front of you, fold this Preflop. GET THE BASICS DOWN FIRST, a potential Q-high flush (what you are calling for) is dangerous when playing for stacks. Rest of the hand is fine.

What should his button limping range be in this spot?

Really this is just splitting hairs rilla. QXs isn't necessarily a bad limp, but it can get you in some tricky situations if there is a lot of action when you hit your flush or trip Q's or whatever other possiblilities. In order to avoid those tricky situations for now, I would recommend removing them from Slevins range. Once he starts to really apply some of the concepts he seems to understand, then these start to become part of his range again.

I'm more worried that he's scared to bet when he has a monster, because he doesn't want his villians to fold. Something is wrong with this mentality: i.e. When I'm bluffing I bet a lot, but when I have a monster I don't bet much. This seems to be Slevins line of thought, and we REALLY need to reverse this somehow.

Originally Posted by ChrisBCritter

I'm more worried that he's scared to bet when he has a monster, because he doesn't want his villians to fold. Something is wrong with this mentality: i.e. When I'm bluffing I bet a lot, but when I have a monster I don't bet much. This seems to be Slevins line of thought, and we REALLY need to reverse this somehow.

Hard and fast rules for something as fluid as poker. What to do when flopping a monster depends on the monster. If it's a monster you are not likely to have, bet away. If it's something that could be expected, slow play it. Here's a hand from a session I am currently taking a break from.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($3.39)
UTG+1 ($2.97)
MP1 ($1.33)
MP2 ($1.72)
CO ($0.53)
Button ($3.43)
Hero (SB) ($1.47)
BB ($2.39)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K
5 folds, Button calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.12, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.26) A, A, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.10, Hero calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.46) A (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.46, Hero raises to $0.92, Button raises to $1.38, Hero calls $0.33 (All-In)

River: ($2.96) 7 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $2.96 | Rake: $0.10

Now my pfr from the SB screamed big pocket pair or big slick. My flop and turn checks made it seem like I was unsure of my hand strength relative to the board. The slow play made opponent wonder (he had a pocket pair) if I was weak. The turn ace made him extremely confident. If I fired bets out confidently from out of position I doubt i double up. Now if I had say pocket 8's and flopped top set a c-bet would be the right thing to to. It all depends. There's no wrong answer at the 2nl tables for this situation. No hard and fast rule here, in my most humble opinion.

New 2nl push - end day 4

I'm finishing the day on a high having taken the advice of the thread and continued with the zero bluff experiment. I completely cut out my Cbets and didn't bluff at all. It felt very strange - and for a while I felt really uncomfortable doing it, I think that just goes to prove how different it was to my usual style of play, I didn't notice just how aggressive I was until I made the effort not to be aggressive.

After 2.5 hours I was about two buy ins up and was about to finish for the night pretty pleased when my PT graph came to mind, I was so close like 2 buyins from breaking even - I also wanted to prove to myself that i hadn't just had a 'good couple of hours' I wanted to see if I'd continue to win just by sticking to the new style. I decided to just knuckle down and see what happens, so I had a 5 minute break and came back and fired up the tables again. By the time I'd finished the session had lasted for 6 hours, one of my longest sessions, but the great news is I ran at 17.1BB/100 which means I made nearly 6 buyins =)



I'm going to continue with this style for now as it seems to be working well. These past few days thanks to your comments I've learnt the power of being passive in a hand unless you are strong. If it wasn't for that input I would have still probabally been spewing chips all over the 2nl tables in another two months wondering where I was going wrong, thank you!

Here are two hands that were amongst my biggest losers (there are only 3 hands above $1 losses which is a huge improvement on my usual sessions considering thats over 1700 hands, so I really am pleased with the new style)

1. Queen trouble... I wasn't too sure how to play this I think maybe I should have 3bet the flop - when the King came I was tempted to put him all in anyway, but given that he could be holding that king, and also that the flop was paired, what with the theme of the session - not bluffing and keeping things passive, i thought best option was to fold...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($4.91)
Button ($2.79)
SB ($3.67)
BB ($1.88)
Hero (UTG) ($6.30)
MP1 ($2.95)
MP2 ($2.96)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero raises to $0.08, 2 folds, CO calls $0.08, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.19) 8, 10, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.17, CO raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.33

Turn: ($1.19) K (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.80, Hero folds

Total pot: $1.19 | Rake: $0.05

Results in white below:
CO didn't show
Outcome: CO won $1.14

2.queens again this time I call an all in... against a good player I'm guessing I'm only really beating jacks here in his range but as this is 2nl I thought they may be doing this if they've hit the flop in some way or maybe even if they're holding AK. Didn't have any reads on this guy.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($4.97)
SB ($1.86)
BB ($1.84)
UTG ($3.74)
UTG+1 ($5.79)
MP1 ($3)
Hero (MP2) ($1.97)
CO ($3.07)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q, Q
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 (poster) checks, Hero raises to $0.12, CO calls $0.12, 5 folds

Flop: ($0.31) 7, 2, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.29, CO raises to $2.95 (All-In), Hero calls $1.56 (All-In)

Turn: ($4.01) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($4.01) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $4.01 | Rake: $0.20

Results in white below:
Hero had Q, Q (two pair, Aces and Queens).
CO had A, 5 (three of a kind, Aces).
Outcome: CO won $3.81

Here is my 2nl graph so far



According to my overal stats I'm now officially a winning player at 2nl! (even if it is only for 0.46BB/100 !)

Thanks for showing me just how much the aggression in my game was holding me back - It seems to have made a big diference, hopefully the next few sessions will continue the upward trend

hey xp yes I do remember you pleased you're back playing now and that things are working well for you i'll be sure to keep up with your progress, nice work with those buy ins!

God I remember when I used to do 6h sessions. Now I get burnt after like 1h-2hs

Great job Slevin!

Did you have a read on the villian on the first QQ hand? It's probably a good fold, but definitely a tough one.

2nd QQ is standard on that kind of flop. GJ! Don't worry about those stinky results!

Originally Posted by nibbles

Hard and fast rules for something as fluid as poker. What to do when flopping a monster depends on the monster. If it's a monster you are not likely to have, bet away. If it's something that could be expected, slow play it.

Yes, poker is a very fluid game, and each unique situation requires a different technique for maximum extraction (or minimum losses). That's not what we are trying to teach here though. Slevin has had a "spewing" problem, and we are needing to take drastic measures to try and stop this problem! Especially at $2NL, you don't have to bluff at all to win, and betting your monsters for value gets paid off a LOT. This is fundemental for establishing a TAGG playing style that Slevin can build off of. Not to mention building confidence!

Your 1st QQ hand, I would've probably raised and committed myself on the flop.

Your 2nd QQ hand is standard.

Remember to make your life easy for yourself. You do this by tightenning up and only playing premium hands and not playing hands where you're never sure whether you're ahead or behind. Poker is soooo much more fun when you're thinking "how do I extract max value from him???" rather than "OMG, OMG, OMG, am I ahead or behind???? What if he's on a draw??? OMG OMG OMG!!!"

btw are you a member of a instructional site? If you aren't I would highly recommend you join Cardrunners (I'm a member at leggopoker and cardrunners). Recently, cardrunners have really been putting in a lot more effort into their videos and I think that they are once again the top site. The main reason why I recommend CR is actually because of one video series called "you too can crush the micros" by "Verneer". This is an 8 part video series which does the best job I've ever seen on how to crush the micro stakes. Season 2 of this series is about to come out soon but Season 1 should be ample info to be able to drastically improve your game and get the fundamentals of poker, other than this CR also has CTS and other top pros who make videos, but for now these probably won't actually help too much as their level of thought is just amazing!. Otherwise grinderschool would also be a good choice as I heard they focus primarily on beating the micros.

Just a quick update for day 5 - back down to $51 on the BR front down about 5 buy ins today.

I've been trying to play more and more tables but I think the emphasis needs to be on quality not quantity - I'm fairly sure playing 6-8 tables I can manage fine, but when I add more it all gets a bit much, and that's what I tried today in my haste to get through 2nl.

So I've decided I'm probabally going to join Grinderschool. From watching the intro video to grinderschool it sounds at about my level and what with the very low monthly subscription to the MS videos - it's also affordable.

I'm going to grind back up to $60 - and when I hit it I'm going to subscribe to GS for the month, I think it'll be 5 buy ins well spent. . Now I have a little goal to work towards it'll make it that much more rewarding. If this works I'll set mini buy in targets more frequently to encourage me to work on quality instead of quantity.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Here are my thoughts on why I should be following those mantras, hopefully someone will be able to point out any floors in my reasoning.

1. Don't go in with implied odds type hands against a pot which is already being 3bet if you're out of position, I'm going to be facing more betting on the flop.

I only have an 11.8% chance of flopping trips or quads when holding a pair, and a 10.4% chance of flopping an OESD from two S/C. So S/C are definately not worth playing as I only have a 10% chance of flopping the potential to draw to a winning hand, and then it's very likely I'm not going to get the chance to draw to that hand as I'll be facing more betting on the flop. The PP's fair better but still if I'm facing a 3bet pot, I'll be putting at least about .12 in preflop which means the effective stack in the pot needs to be atleast 15x this amount according to Rentons effective stack advice - I think i might have the odds in the effective stack sometimes, but I'm sure there's something I'm missing which'll complete the reasoning here.

more analysis than I would put behind it. If you're OOP, you're in a shitty spot usually in 3 bet pots. How much worse is it with a hand that needs to hit and is contingent on the opponent not folding? Especially considering you can't guarantee you even maximize value every time since you're OOP! Basically, this bullet point is right based on how valuable position is!

2. If I flop a monster bet half pot, don't slowplay it.

Not as sure on this as I used to be of the mentality of being worried of scaring people out of the pot and still am slightly. I think the concept behind this is maximising value and if I start betting on the flop I've got more streets to get value in. I guess this must be more ev than hoping the turn would give the others in the pot a chance to connect and then make it more likely that they'll play back - which is basically what I was doing if I think back to my old thinking on this.

Perfectly true. Now think about flopping the nuts in a $.30 pot. If you bet 0.25 and get called, the pot on the turn is gonna be .80 allowing for a turn barrel of .70 or .75 cents for pure and delicious value! The river vbet is thusly larger. Where as betting .20 makes only a 70 cent pot on the turn and only a turn vbet barrel of .60 or .65 cents. Thats 2 bbs less than it should be just on 1 street, think about the river implications on your winrate!

3. Watch out for check or minraises, read it as a sign of strength not weakness.

Not too sure about the reasoning behind this, but you mention this is more learnt from experience so I'll just take this for granted now.

yah, I mean, I don't even fully understand the reasons for this one. I just kinda get it. Probably demonstrative of the psychology required for soulreading lowstakes muppets!

4. Don't chase ever.. I know this but it's still creeping into my game. Don't chase

.

Poker is a long term game, If the pot is laying you the correct price to continue and you do, in the long run you'll profit. If you try to cling onto a hand against unfavourable odds in the long term you will lose money, regardless of if you win the hand or not. This is why it's so important never to stay in a hand if you're not getting the right odds.

hell yah, just keep bleeding money off of your opponents. Don't get caught up in gambling to try to win a stake when it means putting your money in poorly. Even if it's only 1 small street of fcking up.

5. Tighten up late limping range.

I think the idea here is that the cards I play preflop are like my investment. I'm investing my chips in them, I want my investments in sound stock. The higher the % of the card strength the better it is as stock. For now I don't need to get fancy so just need to play high stock cards.

Now this one is interesting! I would say don't limp in early position but if 1 or 2 ppl limp and you have the button and a hand you don't feel like raising to attack the limpers, I actually like having a big limping range. Assuming you can vbet well! Why do you think that is?

--
Thanks for getting me to think about those rules in more detail a500. If there are any holes in my thinking (which I'm sure there are) or any complete misunderstandings I'd love to hear them.

- thanks again everyone for all your feedback, Gary.

Very interesting thanks for your valuable feedback. I guess the wider the limping range then the more chance you have of valuetowning with two pair, when your vilian is chasing a draw or just connected to make one pair. Not entirely sure though??

Well. I've been thinking lately and I'm more or less there with 2nl. I just played another session and actually lost 4 buy ins but this was bad beats, I've checked the hands after and was ahead in all (e.g. have AK on Ace high flop and get called with AQ, and queen comes on the turn). That sort of thing, this doesn't really affect me any more i'm getting quite used to it which is nice as I recognise it for what it is just part and parcel of being a winning poker player.

I don't see the value in continuing at 2nl any more I've played 8000 hands and was break even over that stretch, I understand from talking to other people that there's no real difference between 2nl and 5nl - so I'm going to move up to 5nl now, I'd rather be break even over 5nl or just beating it than break even at 2nl or just beating it because at least I'll be developing some 5nl experience, and getting some hands in.

I'm also just about to join grinderschool. I understand that 10nl is quite a bit different to 5nl so I'm going to make sure I have at least 20k of hands at 5BB/100 at 5nl before I move to 10nl (also of course have to be rolled for 10nl so have $250).

I feel like I've finally accomplished something at 2nl and no longer fear those tables like I did a month or so ago (and I really did I was scared to play a card).

I'm sure with the grinderschool influence and continued less aggressive style that I'll be owning 5nl before too long.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I don't see the value in continuing at 2nl any more I've played 8000 hands and was break even over that stretch, I understand from talking to other people that there's no real difference between 2nl and 5nl - so I'm going to move up to 5nl now, I'd rather be break even over 5nl or just beating it than break even at 2nl or just beating it because at least I'll be developing some 5nl experience, and getting some hands in.

If you can not beat 2nl, you will not beat 5nl, so what then move up to 10nl, then 25nl then 50nl? Losing 4 buyins learning the game at 2nl costs you $8, losing 4 buyins at 5nl costs you $20 and so on and so forth.

Really you should easily be able to beat 2nl if you have any amount of work ethic. Not doing the work and just moving up is going to cost you so much more in terms of money and time spent.

But GL.

dude whats your bankroll? are you rolled for 5NL? if not stay at 2NL... It shoudln't take more than a month movin up stakes at the micro limits if u are beating it.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I don't see the value in continuing at 2nl any more I've played 8000 hands and was break even over that stretch, I understand from talking to other people that there's no real difference between 2nl and 5nl - so I'm going to move up to 5nl now, I'd rather be break even over 5nl or just beating it than break even at 2nl or just beating it because at least I'll be developing some 5nl experience, and getting some hands in.

What a fail! There isn't much of a difference between 5nl and 10nl either. And then the jump to 25nl is incredibly minuscule. And 50nl is child's play. After that 100nl is fucking laughable. So basically 2nl = 100nl. So come on up.. I'll reserve you a seat just to my right. Well I'll save you a seat anywhere, shouldn't be too hard to get the green.

Originally Posted by ProZachNation

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I don't see the value in continuing at 2nl any more I've played 8000 hands and was break even over that stretch, I understand from talking to other people that there's no real difference between 2nl and 5nl - so I'm going to move up to 5nl now, I'd rather be break even over 5nl or just beating it than break even at 2nl or just beating it because at least I'll be developing some 5nl experience, and getting some hands in.

If you can not beat 2nl, you will not beat 5nl, so what then move up to 10nl, then 25nl then 50nl? Losing 4 buyins learning the game at 2nl costs you $8, losing 4 buyins at 5nl costs you $20 and so on and so forth.

Really you should easily be able to beat 2nl if you have any amount of work ethic. Not doing the work and just moving up is going to cost you so much more in terms of money and time spent.

But GL.

Slev, slev, slev, you've been doing so well. Please don't fck it up now. Stick to 2NL until you beat it (ie: build a roll for 5NL).

If you fck up bankroll management 1 more time I'm not going to be able to read this op anymore, it's too awfull as is.

Stick to 2NL dude, see it through. You'll be a better poker player for it (and a stronger person too)

mmm if your main goal at 2nl was to learn how to be a winning player and how to control tilt/br management issues.... then moving from 2nl is not the right thing to do.......

fwiw most the time when you move up stakes... its harder, so if im a BE player at 100nl, i cannot expect to also be a BE player at 200nl....

thanks for the comments everyone I'll think on it, cheers.

Make the move Slevin. $2nl is where all the maniacs hang out. There are way, way, way more maniacs down here than at any other stake. This is where higher stake players come to fool around, let their girlfriends join in on the fun. Calling ranges and all that good stuff is meaningless down here. I told you this before. I'd make the move myself, but I'm under rolled for $2nl. You know my grind. Push comes to shove, u can always drop back down.

The competition up there isn't stiff at all. You wanna know what the real difference is between the two, a 3xBB raise at $5nl actually means something. Too much craziness down here. Just make sure u ease up on all that multi-tabling. Do 1 or 2 tables at first, then expand from there.

Originally Posted by nibbles

Make the move Slevin. $2nl is where all the maniacs hang out. There are way, way, way more maniacs down here than at any other stake. This is where higher stake players come to fool around, let their girlfriends join in on the fun. Calling ranges and all that good stuff is meaningless down here.

I think this has been said numerous times, but I'll say it again. If you can't beat the lower limits, you will not beat the higher limits. It really is as simple as that.

Good luck though, whatever you decide to do.

You can fill an entire post with head banger crap if you want to. $2nl is as close as it gets to play money. Slevin, do you know how long it's been since these guys have grinded $2nl (if ever)? Poker isn't poker until something at value is at stake, and people value nickels more than they do pennies. YOU know there are more maniacs down here. YOU know the play is so crazy that it doesn't seem like poker. That's the real reason u waqnna move up. It's all about what's at stake. That's why it's called "stakes". This is the same as play money tables. Do your thing.

Originally Posted by nibbles

You can fill an entire post with head banger crap if you want to. $2nl is as close as it gets to play money. Slevin, do you know how long it's been since these guys have grinded $2nl (if ever)? Poker isn't poker until something at value is at stake, and people value nickels more than they do pennies. YOU know there are more maniacs down here. YOU know the play is so crazy that it doesn't seem like poker. That's the real reason u waqnna move up. It's all about what's at stake. That's why it's called "stakes". This is the same as play money tables. Do your thing.

I just don't understand your logic. If you can't beat people who are clueless, how do you expect to beat people who know what they're doing?

I would be a rich man if everybody played like they do at play money.

Originally Posted by ProZachNation

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I don't see the value in continuing at 2nl any more I've played 8000 hands and was break even over that stretch, I understand from talking to other people that there's no real difference between 2nl and 5nl - so I'm going to move up to 5nl now, I'd rather be break even over 5nl or just beating it than break even at 2nl or just beating it because at least I'll be developing some 5nl experience, and getting some hands in.

If you can not beat 2nl, you will not beat 5nl, so what then move up to 10nl, then 25nl then 50nl? Losing 4 buyins learning the game at 2nl costs you $8, losing 4 buyins at 5nl costs you $20 and so on and so forth.

Really you should easily be able to beat 2nl if you have any amount of work ethic. Not doing the work and just moving up is going to cost you so much more in terms of money and time spent.

But GL.

I disagree! rake sucks at all micro limits! Play is more coherent as you move up and I find that it would be better for everyone on FTR playing 2-10 nl to find the money to move to 25nl.

Originally Posted by nibbles

Make the move Slevin. $2nl is where all the maniacs hang out. There are way, way, way more maniacs down here than at any other stake. This is where higher stake players come to fool around, let their girlfriends join in on the fun. Calling ranges and all that good stuff is meaningless down here. I told you this before. I'd make the move myself, but I'm under rolled for $2nl. You know my grind. Push comes to shove, u can always drop back down.

The competition up there isn't stiff at all. You wanna know what the real difference is between the two, a 3xBB raise at $5nl actually means something. Too much craziness down here. Just make sure u ease up on all that multi-tabling. Do 1 or 2 tables at first, then expand from there.

nibbbbbles! me and you, buddy!

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by ProZachNation

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I don't see the value in continuing at 2nl any more I've played 8000 hands and was break even over that stretch, I understand from talking to other people that there's no real difference between 2nl and 5nl - so I'm going to move up to 5nl now, I'd rather be break even over 5nl or just beating it than break even at 2nl or just beating it because at least I'll be developing some 5nl experience, and getting some hands in.

If you can not beat 2nl, you will not beat 5nl, so what then move up to 10nl, then 25nl then 50nl? Losing 4 buyins learning the game at 2nl costs you $8, losing 4 buyins at 5nl costs you $20 and so on and so forth.

Really you should easily be able to beat 2nl if you have any amount of work ethic. Not doing the work and just moving up is going to cost you so much more in terms of money and time spent.

But GL.

I disagree! rake sucks at all micro limits! Play is more coherent as you move up and I find that it would be better for everyone on FTR playing 2-10 nl to find the money to move to 25nl.

Yeah sure! Come play on my tables, we'll have lots of fun.

Rilla, I get your POV but wtf are you doing telling losing 2NL players to go to 25NL?

Originally Posted by nibbles

You can fill an entire post with head banger crap if you want to. $2nl is as close as it gets to play money. Slevin, do you know how long it's been since these guys have grinded $2nl (if ever)? Poker isn't poker until something at value is at stake, and people value nickels more than they do pennies. YOU know there are more maniacs down here. YOU know the play is so crazy that it doesn't seem like poker. That's the real reason u waqnna move up. It's all about what's at stake. That's why it's called "stakes". This is the same as play money tables. Do your thing.

Let me know what the micros are like in 2011 willya?

Yeah sure! Come play on my tables, we'll have lots of fun.

Rilla, I get your POV but wtf are you doing telling losing 2NL players to go to 25NL?

I said do what you can to get a 25nl BR!

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Yeah sure! Come play on my tables, we'll have lots of fun.

Rilla, I get your POV but wtf are you doing telling losing 2NL players to go to 25NL?

I said do what you can to get a 25nl BR!

The fact remains; if you cant beat 2NL, you cant beat 25NL. Period

thanks for all the different views I've been playing the ultra micro stakes for months, my past problems were discipline I'm over that now. I do want to get to the stage where I'm playing for something meaningful and don't think it makes much difference if I use 5nl or 2nl to get closer to that goal - other than 5nl will be faster if I'm beating it which I'm fairly sure I will be. My poker is a work in progress and at all times Its up to me to make the best descision with the information I have available, (heavily influenced by FTR input) , thanks to a sng victory earlier today my BR is $69 at the moment (and that's after the small fee for joining grinderschool). I've decided to top it up and grind 5nl and then 10. I'm going to close the chapter on 2nl (after playing 8k hands there I should add) - but given all that's been said I don't think it's going to hurt my game very much. Thanks again for everyones input, much appreciated.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

thanks for all the different views I've been playing the ultra micro stakes for months, my past problems were discipline I'm over that now. I do want to get to something meaningful and don't think it makes much difference if I use 5nl or 2nl to get closer other than 5nl will be faster if I'm beating it which I'm fairly sure I will be. Thanks to a sng victory earlier today my BR is $69 at the moment (and that's after the small fee for joining grinderschool). I've decided to top it up and grind 5nl and then 10. I'm cutting out 2nl (after playing 8k hands there I should add) - but given all that's been said I don't think it's going to hurt my game very much. Thanks again for everyones input, much appreciated.

GG Slev

Originally Posted by OhBollocks

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Yeah sure! Come play on my tables, we'll have lots of fun.

Rilla, I get your POV but wtf are you doing telling losing 2NL players to go to 25NL?

I said do what you can to get a 25nl BR!

The fact remains; if you cant beat 2NL, you cant beat 25NL. Period

Welcome to the abstract!

Say you're in a game with a 8 drunks. Their schooling together and high gamb0l-factor reduces your edge but makes your decisions ez whenever you know you have the best hand or high enough equity to stack off. Adjustments are ez but the table itself is a conundrum! Players will call 2 streets and shove the river over your 3rd bet for 400 bbs because they fucking can!

Now imagine that you didn't know they're drunk! and they were constantly shifting tables and playing 30 hands with you. The average player can't adjust so the climate is perfect for their donkey-ness because the average player are these donkeys!

Now say that the average player gobbled these bitches up! Also, in gobbling them up, the advice of this forum is more applicable to beating these nittier average players. This is a climate which is more profitable for you, the player trying to piece together a picture from all this imperfect information.

I know this is a scenario which grossly overestimates/underestimates/abbreviates/approximates the opponents at all levels, but consider which game you'd want to play in.

All of this stems from my roommate who was a very small loser at 2 nl over 25k hands and is a very nice winner at 25nl over almost 3 times the hands. Decreasing the level of guesswork even by a tiny nth degree improves the clarity with which these players should be thinking about the game. But this paragraph should go to show that if I'm wrong, I can easily understand why.

It's well known the schooling effect takes over until you reach 200nl, then the games become beatable.

What a ton of the top pros did was rakeback/bonus whore $2nl-$200nl, grinding a ton of hands at very small winrates (or even losses) just to build their roll enough to get to stakes where players play well. Then, it's time to prey upon the good players!

hahaha

Slevin, The more things change the more they stay the same.

Rilla, so based off of your experience 25NL is the perfect place to be. But, maybe 10NL is easier and you just don't know this because your roommate didn't play there. Or, maybe your roommates style is suited to 25NL opponents. It's fine you have an opinion, but before this post you were treating this opinion as fact. This is no different than a bible thumper who knows for a fact that god exists and Jesus is his son-reincarnation on earth.

but my last paragraph was hinting at the fact I knew I was a "bible-thumper" in a sense that I could be overestimating my experience and putting high reasoning behind it.

I still believe that the field at 25nl helps deter certain confusing players and helps foster other straightforward and crushable ones. Plus the fact that 2nl means 2 american dollars!

Wow the level of ignorance in this thread is amazing. Either that or I'm out of the loop on the amount of leveling going on.

Nibbles, in the politest way possible, stfu! You have no clue what your talking about here, and you don't have enough experience to be throwing around advice on this subject as you are currently still at 2nl. Poker is a game of mistakes and when your opponents make mistakes, you profit. Well you just said that the play at 2nl is absolutely horrible; therefore, it would be apparent they make more mistakes, which using our logic earlier means more profit for you.

Rilla, I think your post is the level. Or do you seriously think he should move up to 25nl? Cuz if so, your a liberal piece of shit!


Slevin: Go ahead and move up to 5nl if you want. Just means you will be failing to meet another goal you have set. So much for looking back and knowing "you beat a level", amirite? Instead, you can look back and say "I was on my way to learning and let my impatience get the best of me once again, so I moved up to 5nl, and now I'm back on the sidelines waiting on some cash so I can deposit once again!". Because that is the most likely outcome if you move up. Not to mention the numerous individuals who will probably write you off of their "help" list because it will be apparent (as it should be already) that you haven't got what it takes to take advice.

A quote from another thread: "BAD SLEVIN! BAD FUCKING SLEVIN!"


Stax

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

It's well known the schooling effect takes over until you reach 200nl, then the games become beatable.

What a ton of the top pros did was rakeback/bonus whore $2nl-$200nl, grinding a ton of hands at very small winrates (or even losses) just to build their roll enough to get to stakes where players play well. Then, it's time to prey upon the good players!

<3 this!

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

but my last paragraph was hinting at the fact I knew I was a "bible-thumper" in a sense that I could be overestimating my experience and putting high reasoning behind it.

Yeah, but you've been dropping one-liners in other threads eluding to this idea, treating it as a fact with no regards to the basis.

<3

Thanks all, Stacks to be honest if people want to write me off their help list because I'm making my own descisions thats fine! It was really useful to get other insights away from the party line (start at 2nl->5->10>etc...) I think it's important to keep sight of the longer term picture when we're working towards a goal. The longer term picture is make a decent profit from poker, I dont see how grinding another 10-20k of hands at 2nl is going to help me towards that goal when I can just start grinding at 5nl.

I do make / set / break goals pretty frequently sure, but that's part of learning - and developing. I'm happy with the progress I've made so far and I'm very happy to be exposed to differing views when I ask questions. If everyone just said the same thing it wouldn't be much of a 'forum' in the literal sense of the word.

I'm enjoying poker and am sure I'll be moving up the stakes soon, I think that's what it boils down to. I know the importance of BR and protecting a roll - but as I have the money to be able to roll myself for 5nl, and as theres no difference in ability (in fact 5nl should if anything be a bit more standard judging from the replies above, and thus easier) I think that's the best way forward for now. I guess I'll find out soon enough!

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

other than 5nl will be faster if I'm beating it which I'm fairly sure I will be

You probably will be beating 5nl. As apparent by your ability to crush 2nl as you did. Because we all know a negative winrate is the new way to truly say "ship it holla balla".

.....I'm going to close the chapter on 2nl (after playing 8k hands there I should add).....

You may close the chapter on 2nl, but that just means next time you deposit you will have fewer buyins for 5nl.

Thanks again for everyones input, much appreciated.

You mean "Thanks again for everyones input, much appreciated, but I shall ignore it now as I slap you in your face, and proceed to lose money that I can't spare!". If that is what you mean, then cheers!

I refer you to my post above yours

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

but my last paragraph was hinting at the fact I knew I was a "bible-thumper" in a sense that I could be overestimating my experience and putting high reasoning behind it.

Yeah, but you've been dropping one-liners in other threads eluding to this idea, treating it as a fact with no regards to the basis.

<3

so let's figure out if I'm right!

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Rilla, I think your post is the level. Or do you seriously think he should move up to 25nl? Cuz if so, your a liberal piece of shit!


Stax

well, one issue is I'm thinking ideally and not really tying it slevin specifically. Maybe I'm scratching at the idea that he will lose more money but learn faster (easier)???

And now a tragic comedy presented by FTR

Slevin: HAI Guys!! OMG I'm no longer un disciplined.

Everyone else: Cool, well we have yet to see that but yano.. glad you feel that...

Slevin: In fact, I'm so over my un disciplined-ness that I'm going to move up!! LOL

Everyone else: Yeah, probably a bad idea, you only have 8k hands here and

Nibbles: OMG! Me 2! Yay! If the money doesn't matter to you, you'll suck anyway because you don't feel pain when you lose

Rilla and Spenda: OMG EPIC LEVEL TIME (Proceed to level to encourage slevin to make what most of FTR would consider to be a poor decision)

Spenda: (Spews quasi truth)

Rilla: (Becomes a cheer factory)

Staxx: AM I THE ONLY SANE MAN HERE? OMGWTFLOL!

Spoon: Ha Ha! My girlfriend is better than you Slevin, and her playing was just an experiment titled "make someone who doesn't care about poker play better than slevin in less than 7 hours" ...

Slevin.

Seriously.

WTF.

8k hands is a drop in the bucket. If you don't have the discipline to force yourself to learn when the money doesn't matter, what in the HELL makes you think you have the discipline to play when the game is going to be incrementally tougher?

Seriously. As stakes increase, the players get better. Why don't you understand this.

Also: Why, for the love of god, do you declare yourself more disciplined in the same breath you declare you want to move up while you aren't rolled? HYPOCRITE!

Beat 2nl or give up and play poker as a hobby and not as a serious endeavor... Those are your only options at this crossroads.

While you think you're going to outsmart me and play "5nl" as a serious endeavor... you're only outsmarting yourself. It's like cheating in Golf. No one knows but you... So tell me, you going to shoot a 72 from the childrens tees, or are you going to back off and play with, and like the men?

I'm behind you no matter what you choose. But I sure as hell dont' wanna hear you whine about it if you become a hobbyist.

This will likely get deleted, and strikes issued, as is all so common when someone posts helpful shit in someone else's blog. But thats fine.

The point of the matter is this: SLEVIN YOU FUCKING FAIL IF YOU MOVE UP!

It's really that simple. You want to "make a profit","become a pro", "Live off poker", "win the Main Event", and all that other bogus shit you have said over the months since you have been here. Yet you can't stick to goal as simple as "beat 2nl". That's where you haven't bettered your discipline. This is where you FAIL.

The fact that a few individuals have come in here feeding you useless and retarded advice that you have wanted to hear all along, doesn't mean that their advice is worth a damn. You may say "well your advice isn't worth a damn!!", and that's fine. Because even before I typed this I knew it wasn't worth a damn. I know you still going to move to 5nl, and I know you are still going to fail.

You preach about the importance of BRM and discipline now, but you still haven't got a clue about either. You are wanting to move up with 14 buyins for 5nl (which is absolutely doable if you aren't inept at poker as you are), and you claim to be disciplined now because you played 8k hands at 2nl without losing your roll.

I'm sorry buddy, but you aren't going to succeed if you don't straighten shit out and learn to win at the lowest levels.

And to whomever comes in here preaching about how playing the higher stakes is better because it's more like poker and not a fucking crapshoot, you are seriously misguided, and are lacking serious fundamentals of the game.


2NL, so easy, only slevin could fuck it up! (Geico reference.. Get it?).

Stax

I promise I'll do my best to not bring this up again, but...

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Thanks all, Stacks to be honest if people want to write me off their help list because I'm making my own descisions thats fine!

HE DOESN'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT YOU SAY HE'S DOING WHAT HE WANTS SO STOP TRYING TO FORCE SHIT DOWN HIS THROAT AND LET HIM FAIL IN HILARIOUS FASHION*.

*failing in hilarious fashion is my opinion and may not actually happen

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

but my last paragraph was hinting at the fact I knew I was a "bible-thumper" in a sense that I could be overestimating my experience and putting high reasoning behind it.

Yeah, but you've been dropping one-liners in other threads eluding to this idea, treating it as a fact with no regards to the basis.
<3

so let's figure out if I'm right!

K, play 10k hands of 2NL, 5NL, 10NL, 25NL and have the report on my desk by 8a.

I haven't got 14 bi's if you read what I said I'm topping my BR up. I do understand BR principles. Your views have been noted, mucho gracias.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

2NL, so easy, only slevin could fuck it up! (Geico reference.. Get it?).

Stax

Meh.. I ain't figgured it out either.

Hahahah I got a part in the play!

Suck it high school

Slevin, want to flip for $100? I am serious btw.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Hahahah I got a part in the play!

Suck it high school

Good news, for your part you get to wear the bear suit!!!

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

but my last paragraph was hinting at the fact I knew I was a "bible-thumper" in a sense that I could be overestimating my experience and putting high reasoning behind it.

Yeah, but you've been dropping one-liners in other threads eluding to this idea, treating it as a fact with no regards to the basis.
<3

so let's figure out if I'm right!

K, play 10k hands of 2NL, 5NL, 10NL, 25NL and have the report on my desk by 8a.

But I don't wannnaaaaa! Also, I know I crush 2nl over 2k hands for 7 ptbbs and beat 10 nl for twice that over half the hands! All were played on my comp while my roommate clicked the buttons but I was the decision maker.

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Slevin, want to flip for $100? I am serious btw.

this might be the most +EV move Slevin could ever make

I'm dissapointed with you Slevin. GL with your drama.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

as theres no difference in ability (in fact 5nl should if anything be a bit more standard judging from the replies above, and thus easier)

This is a two-edged sword, slevin. Every level up they play a bit saner, true. But that just means they as a group punish your mistakes more often. I've just learned that lesson moving from 10nl to 25nl. Sure they play more "ABC" than at 10nl, a bit, but they will stack you if get out of line. If you play wobbly, get stacked, tilt, then stack off a few more times, you're a third of the way through your roll.

There's something sublime about having the discipline to grind up, take your shot and make it.

Good luck.

Originally Posted by Robb

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

as theres no difference in ability (in fact 5nl should if anything be a bit more standard judging from the replies above, and thus easier)

This is a two-edged sword, slevin. Every level up they play a bit saner, true. But that just means they as a group punish your mistakes more often. I've just learned that lesson moving from 10nl to 25nl. Sure they play more "ABC" than at 10nl, a bit, but they will stack you if get out of line. If you play wobbly, get stacked, tilt, then stack off a few more times, you're a third of the way through your roll.

robby! you got it, man. Exactly what you struggle with or think limits you, I feel will enable you once your thought processes take the next step.

Still will admit I can be way wrong and just stuck with the fact that I haven't found the best way to crack the 2s but I have figured out how to crack the 25s.

Title: scratching at what I'm getting at???

Body: poker is a game played vrs everyone else. The further your perspective is from inside your own head, the more valuable. Getting a feel for the state of the game a few stakes up and a few stakes down from where you play can help you understand the psychology of many of your opponents.

How does this apply to Slevin? poorly! sorry, buddy. There are many fundamentals which need tackling before you can try to tackle the overall poker landscape.

I still feel like there is high value in what I'm preaching but maybe the execution/timing is very poor.

Conclusion: let's focus on solidifying the basis for your poker understanding and then build!

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Title: scratching at what I'm getting at???

Body: poker is a game played vrs everyone else. The further your perspective is from inside your own head, the more valuable. Getting a feel for the state of the game a few stakes up and a few stakes down from where you play can help you understand the psychology of many of your opponents.

How does this apply to Slevin? poorly! sorry, buddy. There are many fundamentals which need tackling before you can try to tackle the overall poker landscape.

I still feel like there is high value in what I'm preaching but maybe the execution/timing is very poor.

Conclusion: let's focus on solidifying the basis for your poker understanding and then build!

I agree with this.

You're assuming the target already understands basics and has some plan. There is a lot to think about while you're learning without wondering about the opponent. But when you get to this next level the game gets a lot easier. (I think)

Hmm ok in that case I'll drop back down to 2nl. I cleared my PT dbase out as I was going to start 5nl but am sure i'll get the stats back within a cpl of days. In fact the clear dbase will do me a favour that 8k breakeven stretch wasn't all that inspiring to look at.

I'm going to have a break from this blog for the next couple of stakes and return when I have beaten 10nl. To keep track of my progress with 2,5 and 10nl I'm going to keep a small record in my grinderschool blog. My next post in this blog will be when I'm starting 25nl.

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I cleared my PT dbase out as I was going to start 5nl but am sure i'll get the stats back within a cpl of days. In fact the clear dbase will do me a favour that 8k breakeven stretch wasn't all that inspiring to look at.

clearing the database makes no sense. I'm sure you have a reason, but I advise you to never do this again.

I recommend grinding $2nl until you get your $60 up to $100. Up to you though. You could meet halfway and reward yourself with a $20 top-up to get you rolled for $5nl when you have ground your roll to $80

good luck slevin!

WHERE IS LUCKYSLEV1N?!

pls don't start on him again, muzz... be cool like fonz