Operation Bankroll Builder

Alright, I've been playing for too long now, and I owe it to myself to take poker more seriously. I've been messing around at the party 50 NL tables for a few months, occasionally venturing to the 100NL tables. I do pretty well. I've cashed out some money here and there, sometimes too much and I've had to reload a few times. Last week I decided to take a stab at higher stakes, and it was a huge mistake. I lost alot of money. I don't necessarily think I played horribly, but looking back I was clearly scared at playing for too much money.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in so many words, is that I've worked relatively hard on becoming better at poker, but I've managed to completely avoid managing my bankroll responsibly, which really has kept me from making any serious progress. So time to fix that.

I'm taking a step backwards and starting all over again. I currently have $393 in my Party Poker account. I'm going to play $25 NL tables until I have 20 buy-ins at the next level ($1000). I'll continue to move up in limits any time I get to 20 buy-ins at the next level. If at any time my bankroll drops to 15 buy-ins at the level I'm playing, I will drop down in limits again until I get back to 20 buy-ins at the higher limit.

My ultimate goal is to be playing at $1000 NL tables, with an adequate bankroll, one year from now, April 25, 2006. To accomplish this, I will need to move up in limits every two months.

Goals -

$1000 by June 25, 2005
$2000 by August 25, 2005
$4000 by October 25, 2005
$8000 by December 25, 2005
$12000 by February 25, 2006
$20000 by April 25, 2006

I think short term goals are useless in poker, but you do need to set some mid term goals. Such as $600 by the end may, $1000 by the end of June, etc

With that said, the fish await you, go get 'em

Good idea. I figured I would have to move up in limits every 2 months to accomplish this, so that's 5 intermediate goals to meet. Original post and sig edited.

Well first day couldn't have gone better. Got some cards and 25NL players are really bad. Up $110.

***** Hand History for Game 1954659207 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, April 26, 03:27:52 EDT 2005
Table Table 39186 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ipotducks ( $23.9 )
Seat 3: Demis2 ( $45.22 )
Seat 4: wcndy ( $36.45 )
Seat 5: TheChop1 ( $25.3 )
Seat 6: WeeBull ( $35.45 )
Seat 7: nawaspoker ( $38.95 )
Seat 8: FishMagician ( $24 )
Seat 9: relik ( $4.32 )
Seat 10: liv7en ( $29.58 )
Seat 2: rxphsp2 ( $13 )
FishMagician posts small blind [$0.1].
relik posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to FishMagician [ Qc Qd ]
liv7en calls [$0.25].
ipotducks folds.
rxphsp2 calls [$0.25].
Demis2 folds.
wcndy folds.
TheChop1 calls [$0.25].
WeeBull folds.
nawaspoker calls [$0.25].
FishMagician raises [$1.9].
relik is all-In.
liv7en calls [$4.07].
rxphsp2 folds.
TheChop1 folds.
nawaspoker folds.
>You have options at Table 37446 Table!.
FishMagician is all-In.
liv7en calls [$19.68].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, Jh, 5c ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
FishMagician shows [ Qc, Qd ] a full house, Queens full of jacks.
relik doesn't show [ Jd, Qs ] a full house, Jacks full of queens.
liv7en shows [ 3c, Ac ] two pairs, jacks and fives.
>You have options at Mini Step 1 #1014165 Table!.
FishMagician wins $37.36 from side pot #1 with a full house, Queens full of jacks.
FishMagician wins $13.06 from the main pot with a full house, Queens full of jacks.





***** Hand History for Game 1954779717 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, April 26, 04:12:55 EDT 2005
Table Table 39186 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: rxphsp2 ( $14.35 )
Seat 3: WoodNCSU ( $14.28 )
Seat 4: wcndy ( $32.82 )
Seat 5: TheChop1 ( $18.82 )
Seat 6: WeeBull ( $37.35 )
Seat 8: FishMagician ( $56.42 )
Seat 9: deedleduck ( $18.6 )
Seat 10: liv7en ( $8.95 )
Seat 7: prashanthm ( $23.75 )
Seat 1: TheHammer57 ( $24.75 )
wcndy posts small blind [$0.1].
TheChop1 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to FishMagician [ 5h 3h ]
WeeBull folds.
prashanthm calls [$0.25].
FishMagician calls [$0.25].
deedleduck folds.
liv7en calls [$0.25].
TheHammer57 folds.
rxphsp2 calls [$0.25].
WoodNCSU raises [$0.5].
wcndy folds.
TheChop1 folds.
prashanthm calls [$0.25].
FishMagician calls [$0.25].
liv7en calls [$0.25].
rxphsp2 calls [$0.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, 4h, 7s ]
prashanthm checks.
FishMagician checks.
liv7en bets [$0.5].
rxphsp2 folds.
WoodNCSU folds.
prashanthm calls [$0.5].
FishMagician raises [$5].
liv7en calls [$4.5].
prashanthm calls [$4.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
prashanthm checks.
FishMagician checks.
liv7en is all-In.
prashanthm calls [$3.45].
FishMagician calls [$3.45].
** Dealing River ** [ Ad ]
prashanthm checks.
FishMagician bets [$10].
prashanthm calls [$10].
FishMagician shows [ 5h, 3h ] a straight, ace to five.
liv7en doesn't show [ 2s, 6s ] three of a kind, twos.
prashanthm doesn't show [ Ah, 7d ] two pairs, aces and sevens.
FishMagician wins $19 from side pot #1 with a straight, ace to five.
FishMagician wins $26.8 from the main pot with a straight, ace to five.
WoodNCSU has left the table.

Wow, that second hand is ugly. I fold all 3 of these hands pre flop.

Still doing well the $25 tables. It's only been around 1500 hands, and my cards are running well, so that's always nice. I am playing slightly looser than I normally do, trying to get more comfortable playing different types of hands after the flop. I am gaining some slight ability to push a weak table around, whereas I used to just camp and if I was at a tight table I didn't have the skills necessary to change my game up. I still am much more comfortable playing TAgg, and I believe I'll be a predominantly tight player for as long as I play poker, but the ability to loosen up in benificial situations can't do anything but help me in the long run, so I'm working on it.

Stats through first 1500ish hands of 25NL-

VPIP - 22%
PFR - 7.7%
Agg:
F - 5.14
T - 2.41
R - 2.86

W$SD - 57%
BB/100 - 25.23

I also played two $10+1 SnGs today and came in first and second, so that boosted the bankroll a bit. I need to not do that, though. That's risking almost an entire buy in on the crap-shooty PP SnGs.

Good operation, i'm in a very similar position and need to do something similar, my BR is ~1600 but i'm still messing about at 25NL, so i'll start with 50NL immediately and move up to 100NL when i hit 2K. 100NL sounds scary, what do people think is the easiest 100NL game around, i'm guessing party's will be fairly tough.

Party's will be easy! They all suck there! 100NL just means remembering knowing when to give up on a pot because people arent gonna be showing down A7o for top pair no kicker any more.

Originally Posted by Legendash

Good operation, i'm in a very similar position and need to do something similar, my BR is ~1600 but i'm still messing about at 25NL, so i'll start with 50NL immediately and move up to 100NL when i hit 2K. 100NL sounds scary, what do people think is the easiest 100NL game around, i'm guessing party's will be fairly tough.

You should start $100NL now. 16 buyins is easily enough.

Are you joking me? Party's 100NL is like butter. Even my friends who are just average players win at 100nl and 200nl

Originally Posted by Legendash

Good operation, i'm in a very similar position and need to do something similar, my BR is ~1600 but i'm still messing about at 25NL, so i'll start with 50NL immediately and move up to 100NL when i hit 2K. 100NL sounds scary, what do people think is the easiest 100NL game around, i'm guessing party's will be fairly tough.

Alright then! 100 NL here i come.

I usually 4 table but i think reads may be important at this level. Any thoughts on differences between limits or shall i just play my usual game. I'm a little apprehensive because i've made a lot of my bankroll through PP network bonuses and don't feel like i've made 1600 through great play.

Originally Posted by Legendash

Alright then! 100 NL here i come.

I usually 4 table but i think reads may be important at this level. Any thoughts on differences between limits or shall i just play my usual game. I'm a little apprehensive because i've made a lot of my bankroll through PP network bonuses and don't feel like i've made 1600 through great play.

Don't do it unless you have a good solid amount of data showing that you are soundly beating the 50NL game! Your bankroll is not the deciding factor, instead you should make your decision based on your win rate is at the previous level and for this you need to have at least a 100k hand database in pokertracker.

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Originally Posted by Legendash

Good operation, i'm in a very similar position and need to do something similar, my BR is ~1600 but i'm still messing about at 25NL, so i'll start with 50NL immediately and move up to 100NL when i hit 2K. 100NL sounds scary, what do people think is the easiest 100NL game around, i'm guessing party's will be fairly tough.

You should start $100NL now. 16 buyins is easily enough.

16 buy ins is nothing!! I lost almost that much in 3 days play about 3 weeks ago. Since then I have not had a single losing day over the last 25k hands.

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

16 buy ins is nothing!! I lost almost that much in 3 days play about 3 weeks ago. Since then I have not had a single losing day over the last 25k hands.

You think I should I change my number of buy-ins necessary to move up in limits to 25 or 30?

Fair enough Cocco Bill, i'd already decided i'd prove myself at 50NL before i moved up, been playing today, so far up $200 and cleared a $100 bonus, so far its going great but it may just be a hot streak. I guess i should really get round to buying poker tracker, can you pay for it with neteller.

FishMagician, sorry for cluttering your thread with my inane ramblings, hopefully something of use will come from them

Originally Posted by FishMagician

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

16 buy ins is nothing!! I lost almost that much in 3 days play about 3 weeks ago. Since then I have not had a single losing day over the last 25k hands.

You think I should I change my number of buy-ins necessary to move up in limits to 25 or 30?

No, not if you have the discipline to move down every time you are down to 15 buyins. All I'm saying is that even a winning player can have a 16buyin downswing and that it takes more hands than most people realise to determine if you are a winning player at a given limit.

Originally Posted by Legendash

FishMagician, sorry for cluttering your thread with my inane ramblings, hopefully something of use will come from them

Nonsense. Your situation seems similar to mine, so your questions help me as well.

Barely been able to play because of work, but it's still going well. The fish at 25NL are really ridiculous.

Totals so far(2,224 hands)

VPIP - 23%
PFR - 8.0%
Agg:
F - 4.72
T - 2.10
R - 1.84

W$SD - 56%
BB/100 - 21.11

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Party's will be easy! They all suck there! 100NL just means remembering knowing when to give up on a pot because people arent gonna be showing down A7o for top pair no kicker any more.

I stand corrected. 100NL does not mean knowing when to give up because people STILL show down A7o for top pair no kicker. In fact, they show down pocket 7's for third pair, call $35 potsized bets on flush draws, and bluff big on the river if they miss. I was wrong.


And nice job on the bankroll building. You are kicking some ass real hard. Add in some bonuses and youre gonna be done before you know it.

For a couple reasons, I just moved my bankroll to Ultimate Bet. The transition took a couple days, so I hadn't played at all for a couple but I got back on the saddle today. The players at UB are no better than at PP from what I can tell so far, though it was just one day, and I'm up over $800.00 now, which is well ahead of my goal.

There's alot of hands that I didn't get into pokertracker because I wasn't really thinking about the fact that playing on UB would be different in that regard than PP, so I didn't start saving them until I was almost done for the day.

There's a few PL hands that I hadn't included on my previous posts because I only had the NL25 thing checked on PT that are included in this. I was trying to figure out the gap between what I had won and what PT said I had won, and those 26 hands in which I won $40 were the difference. Anyway, here are the stats.


PT Stats (2,555 Hands)

VPIP - 23.35%
PFR - 7.87%
Agg:
F - 4.74
T - 1.94
R - 1.82

W$SD - 60.6%
BB/100 - 24.89

Thanks to a MTT win, I passed the $1000 mark, so I'm moving up to 50NL. I can only play ring for about an hour and a half at a time, so I usually do a couple sessions/day, so during one of my breaks I decided to play a $5 freezeout, and I ended up winning about $400. I guess this is kind of against the spirit of the operation, but poker winnings are poker winnings, so up I go.

As far as ring - the bad players at UB seem to be weak whereas the bad players at party seem to be wild, so camping isn't nearly as effective. I played 5 different tables today and yesterday and had 30% vpip and 15% pfr on each of them, and my win rate is around 20bb/100, so that is encouraging to me, as historically I've had trouble playing this style. It's a microscopic sample size, but still encouraging.

Crappy start at $50.00 NL. Down about $100 since I moved up. Took some crazy beats, but really my luck ran so well for my whole stint at $25 I can't complain. There are slightly less completely clueless player at the $50 tables, but there's still some out there. Difference so far is that they're sucking out, when I was playing $25 my favorites were holding up even more than they should have.

My computer is on the fritz, so I'm playing on my wife's, which doesn't have pt. When I get mine back up and running, going to try and get all my ub hands and I'll have stats.

You might also want to consider 30 buyins for 200NL and above...Im on a mission similar to yours and I think that not only will your edge decrease the more you move up (obviously) but that playing until you have 30 buyins for the next level should give a lot more practice and a chance to crush the current level. Plus, 30 buyins could help your confidence level when moving up to stakes that are twice as much as you're used to. I dont think it would be too terrible or take too long to build up an extra 10 buyins at each level.

Anyways, good luck and keep up the good work.

I've been having a torrid time at 50NL on party recently, lost about $180 over a couple of days having never lost more than a buyin or two before. I was up about 250 for a while but now i'm only about 40 up after 6500 hands which basically sucks. I'm not even thinking about moving up to 100NL until i sort out what i'm doing wrong but i'm not certain what that is. I've lost about 150 with AK so i need to work on that but apart from that i'm not sure.

I had a horrible time at 50NL at first too. The 6max tables were so tight it was hard to adjust. Now that Im up to the 100NL tables its back to fishiness and i can build monster stacks at times...but when I hit tables with 2 shorstacks and 2 calling stations I manage to lose a good $2-300 before quitting for the night. In fact, Im going to make a post about this in the SH forum.

Originally Posted by Legendash

I've been having a torrid time at 50NL on party recently, lost about $180 over a couple of days having never lost more than a buyin or two before. I was up about 250 for a while but now i'm only about 40 up after 6500 hands which basically sucks. I'm not even thinking about moving up to 100NL until i sort out what i'm doing wrong but i'm not certain what that is. I've lost about 150 with AK so i need to work on that but apart from that i'm not sure.

I went through the same thing except my numbers were like 5x yours...

I won 1200$ very fast and lost almost all of it.

That setback probably kept me from moving to 100NL for a long time which is a shame as I am clearly beating it so far....

As an addition to this operation, I am going to try to analyze as many hands as possible in the hh section.

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

You might also want to consider 30 buyins for 200NL and above

I may consider it when I get up there. I think the amount of time is kind of self-policing though. The worse I'm doing, the longer it will take to make the next level and therefore the more experience I'll get.

I bounced back a little at the $50 tables. In the black on the day, about $75. Nothing too spectacular, but it feels good to have a positive day.

Tomorrow is the one month mark and I'm way ahead of schedule, but despite that I'm starting to think this might not be do-able in the time frame I set, mostly because of the limit on my playing time. I guess it's better to set goals too high than too low though, right?

Well, this operation failed. I'm too impatient. When I got to 2k, I started playing the $200 tables and when I got to 3k-ish I started playing the $400 tables. I'm now up to around $5200. I don't know what to say, I know I'm going about it wrong, and I know there's a decent chance I will hit a downswing and blow the whole thing, but I couldn't plod away when I believe I am good enough beat the higher limits. I'm not going to pretend like I'm going to change my ways, either. If I get to 10k I'll probably try the $1000 tables. I've never had any ambition to play anything higher than $1000, so I guess pretty soon here I'll either be another cautionary tale about bankroll management or one of the few who managed to beat the odds. Wish me luck, or wish me doom for trying to beat the system.

good luck on the way up, hopefully everything works out.

I hope you get lucky, and people have done it with less. But imho if you don't have the discipline to practise simple bankroll management you probably wont succeed in poker, even if you do make it to 1000nl.

Originally Posted by Bmxicle

I hope you get lucky, and people have done it with less. But imho if you don't have the discipline to practise simple bankroll management you probably wont succeed in poker, even if you do make it to 1000nl.

Yup. Playing on a short bankroll will break even the best poker players at one point or another. Its a 'when' not an 'if.'

I truly hope you succeed but this is a very bad habit that needs to be cut now. If you enjoy playing poker at those stakes, you need to build your bankroll up first or else your stay will be a short one.

Best of luck.

Update on this - I got up to about 7k on the 400NL tables at UB, and moved up to the $1000 tables, which I'm probably not good enough to beat right now, so, I lost a lot of money, I was sitting at around $4500, tilting, and I realized that I'm just not a good gambler. I think I'm a pretty decent poker player, but I just got caught up in the whirlwind, moving up stakes too fast, basically getting way ahead of myself. So I withdrew $4,000, leaving me with $500 to play around with, which I promptly lost. I'm going to take a break for a while, maybe permanently. I turned 400 dollars into 4000 dollars, and if I never play poker again I'll be happy with that result.

I might just stick to playing live once a week with a bunch of non-poker players, or I might be back in a couple months. Either way, I wanted to thank all of you here at FTR for helping me become a better poker player, and I wish all of you good luck with whatever your poker goals may be.

Good luck on life's journeys. People kinda new this was going to happen. You were up 4k to the good. A good sized cash out. I wish you luck in all of life.

LuckyPoker

Well it sucks that you're leaving fishmagician, but good job on cashing that 4k out. A lot of people would be fishing for that 7k high mark and eventually lose the rest.

It sounds like you have some real poker talent, and it would be a shame to see you quit the game for good or screw your bankroll again. I can imagine you making a killing on a proper bankroll. Either way, enjoy the cash and I hope we see you back again.

:/

Hope you return with a new fresh approach soon!