Operation: Ben learns poker and builds a roll

Thanks guys. Its 8 buyin downswing now, but yeah only 5 in that session and less than 3 down overall. Gotta make sure I work the basics hard, table selection, playing when good, make money from the fish. I wonder if maybe I'm tending to focus too much on the regs atm. Sometimes I'll realise I've been at a table for a fair while and not played with the target yet.

I also wonder if I overthink the ranges they put me on. Because I have a lot of mined hands I'm identifying the regs and got their stats/etc, but I'm still new to 200nl, to a lot of these guys I'm unknown.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Damn, took a big hit tonight. Nothing went right. Not all of it good play by me, but deck hated me for sure. After that big speech, I think I'll be back to 100nl for a bit after all.

-$1k day .

Man, sounds like someone in need of some run good...



Oh look, there it is!!

Losing session was actually up until I was closing down tables and got KK<AA in last hand on one table, so really have been running hot. Flipping well.

$400 p/hr, I'll take that .

NH

lol nice work if you can call it work

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Man, sounds like someone in need of some run good...

$400 p/hr, I'll take that .

mod-rates nice to see dude.

On a personal note, weighed in this morning and I'm now the lightest I've been since first year of Uni (first year cooking for myself when I kinda...didn't so just wasted away). Almost 14kg lighter than my heaviest Christmas before last, down about 8-9kg this year (lbs multiply by 2.2). Strangely enough because I've been getting sick on and off for the last few months I've actually done it without consistent exercise leaving me in a position where I look the best I have for ages, but I'm actually fairly unfit atm. Hopefully can do something about that going forward. Always figured it would be easier to get fit when I wasn't carrying the extra weight, so time to find out.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Thanks guys. Its 8 buyin downswing now, but yeah only 5 in that session and less than 3 down overall. Gotta make sure I work the basics hard, table selection, playing when good, make money from the fish.

All recovered. Whew. Some definate run good including flipping well (although I'm now only slightly up on EV for the month, was well down for a while there). Big pots I'm generally either getting my money in good or flipping though, which is my aim. Heres a fun hand, opponent is a TAG on the looser side, but I've been pushing him around a bunch later. 3 betting a few times, then a 4bet pot where he called a small cbet then folded to 1/2 pot on turn. He's obviously ready to flip it.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($202)
Hero (UTG) ($309.50)
Button ($577.06)
MP ($110.26)
SB ($406.95)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, 3
Hero bets $6, 3 folds, BB calls $4

Flop: ($13) 4, 2, 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB raises $22, Hero raises $295.50 (All-In), BB calls $174 (All-In)

Turn: ($405) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($405) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $405

Results:
BB had K, 10 (flush, King high).
Hero had A, 3 (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: Hero won $510


I'm about 85% on that flop v's his hand .

It's more fun when you miss and you flip over A high and they muck

I don't get why you're jamming that flop

also, gratz on the weight loss, good stuff yo

NFD + gutshot? If I'm not going to stick that in, what am I?

ofc we're getting it in, making it $60/call is better

Ahh, hmmm, dunno. Guess I'd prefer to make sure we get it in rather than get flatted and miss turn. Cant really remember what went through my mind at the time.

shoving is pretty poor imo. raising smaller is way better to get him to shove more. your shove means he should only call u with sets. his call is horrible, he should even fold an Axdd draw vs that shove.

The fact he's steaming doesnt make it ok? I dunno, I like to keep max pressure on when someones ready to burst.

Meh, feels so swingy. I think I've become a little to desensitized to the money on the tables and making some mistakes in an effort to be more aggressive. 200 hands this morning and ran bad (lost every single ai) to finish 2.5 buyins down, which was exactly my aiEV difference. AA < QQ ai pre in a $550 pot to top things off for a shitty session. Makes me up less than a buyin for the whole weekend. Feeling kinda shitty. Just when things start running my way they turn to crap again.

Start my new role at work today. Going to be much busier and have to travel a bunch, so my play time is going to be greatly reduced. Will need to load the PSP up and watch a bunch of vids while travelling and stuff. Still not certain what my schedule will be, just know it wont leave anywhere near as much time.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Ahh, hmmm, dunno. Guess I'd prefer to make sure we get it in rather than get flatted and miss turn. Cant really remember what went through my mind at the time.

This + the 85 hand you posted make me think it's really easy to put you on a strong draw.

You'd be wrong, but what are you going to do? If I play my 12+ out draws fast, then all you can do is go with me and hope that you're flipping, which makes me good money the times I'm not drawing and I break even long term over the rest.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($200)
UTG ($199.85)
Button ($28.25)
SB ($410.50)
MP ($214.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 4
3 folds, SB bets $5, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($12) 2, 3, A (2 players)
SB bets $8.55, Hero raises $24, SB calls $15.45

Turn: ($60) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $47, SB raises $138, Hero raises $123 (All-In), SB calls $32

River: ($400) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $400

Results:
SB had Q, A (one pair, Aces).
Hero had 5, 4 (straight, six high).
Outcome: Hero won $397.50


Oops, I was 'obviously' drawing there too.

[edit for more fun]

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($200)
CO ($206)
SB ($73)
MP ($245.85)
BB ($110.19)
UTG ($191)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, K
UTG bets $6, 2 folds, Hero calls $6, SB calls $5, 1 fold

Flop: ($20) 10, 5, 5 (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $16, Hero raises $45, SB raises $67 (All-In), UTG raises $169 (All-In), Hero calls $140

Turn: ($457) 9 (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($457) 8 (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $457

Results:
Hero had 5, K (three of a kind, fives).
SB didn't show 57s
UTG didn't show KK
Outcome: Hero won $453.50




No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($260.07)
SB ($200)
UTG ($368.10)
MP ($281.63)
BB ($66.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7, 9
UTG bets $6, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, 1 fold, BB calls $4

Flop: ($19) 7, K, 9 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $13.53, Hero raises $40, 1 fold, UTG raises $348.57 (All-In), Hero calls $214.07 (All-In)

Turn: ($527.14) Q (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($527.14) 2 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $527.14

Results:
Hero had 7, 9 (two pair, nines and sevens).
UTG had 10, 8 (high card, King).
Outcome: Hero won $525.14


No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($248.59)
UTG ($351.13)
MP ($102.89)
BB ($346.90)
SB ($276.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10, 10
UTG bets $6, MP calls $6, Hero calls $6, 2 folds

Flop: ($21) K, 10, 6 (3 players)
UTG checks, MP bets $12, Hero raises $40, 1 fold, MP calls $28

Turn: ($101) 7 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $99, 1 fold

Total pot: $101

Results:
Hero had 10, 10 (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $198

sorry if you took it the wrong way, I made the comment with the full knowledge that I was probably wrong (that you probably had good balance with these types of plays). I just like thinking about the subtle differences between how I play certain hands and trying to eliminate these differences when it's advantageous to me so I thought you'd enjoy it too.

You're absolutely correct that it's difficult to play against.

Note that in none of those hands are you overbetting or shoving. And all but the TT hand you are calling all-in.

Originally Posted by Parasurama

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Ahh, hmmm, dunno. Guess I'd prefer to make sure we get it in rather than get flatted and miss turn. Cant really remember what went through my mind at the time.

This + the 85 hand you posted make me think it's really easy to put you on a strong draw.

Just to expand a bit more on the above. Most people dont think "big draw" they just think "draw", so when they see me raise on a wet board they think "draw, lol my TP hand is 65-70% against that" and they cant wait to put all their money in to charge me. Even after showdown most people just think "oh yeah, he was on a draw".

Thats not to say combo draws and 2P+ hands are the only hands I raise flops with, but they make up the bulk. Doesnt take much many more hands in there to make it look like a significantly wider range, and I just pick spots where I think I have extra FE for those exceptions.

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

shoving is pretty poor imo. raising smaller is way better to get him to shove more. your shove means he should only call u with sets. his call is horrible, he should even fold an Axdd draw vs that shove.

Been thinking about this (not just your response but all of them). Against a made hand we're around 45-55%, usually above 50% but only just. I've always considered this a spot where we dont mind getting all in, but we don't necessarily want to get all in. If he flipped say TT I'm obviously not sad, but I'm not fistpump 'Gotcha!' either. Do we really prefer enticing a push from hands we flip against, or are you suggesting a smaller bet lets him shove some crap we're ahead of, not just flipping with?

Like others have said, I'd 3bet A3dd smallish on that flop instead of jamming. I'd rather jam if we b/jam OOP than IP. He's not likely to flat a draw OOP and will probably just jam himself, esp. if you have a bluffing range there for 3bet folding.

K5cc hand - whattt.. fold or 3bet pre, or luckbox this flop. But let's get real, foldddd.

TTc hand - why are you betting pot? If anything this is a horrible card for you, if nothing else for the range of hands that might continue now. If you're betting so big, you're pretty much polarizing his range to only hands that beat you continuing. You also have a decent club, so betting smaller (65ish) isn't the end of the world.

Depending on how UTG plays post-flop and what his range is for raising here, I like a suited up-down (kc5c) for a call.

In the A3 hand, are you seriously playing a set exactly like this?

Originally Posted by griffey24

TTc hand - why are you betting pot? If anything this is a horrible card for you, if nothing else for the range of hands that might continue now. If you're betting so big, you're pretty much polarizing his range to only hands that beat you continuing. You also have a decent club, so betting smaller (65ish) isn't the end of the world.

Stack size, he only had about $55 left.

aaaah...

[ ] hand reading ability

btw, I really cant remember why I called K5s. If I was on my game then I'd guess he wasnt positionally aware and checked/folded a lot of missed flops. If I was off my game then I was probably tilted.

The point with those hands, was I played those big made hands identically to how I played the big draws I've been posting lately. In fact its really the opposite, I (try to) play my big draws the same way I play my big hands for balance. What I'm picking up though, is that against especially strong ranges that balance matters less than the fact that I'd be getting my draws in against strong ranges. So its like an exception to the rule where I really would be polarised towards nut hands in some situations. Also I just plain get it wrong some times, like if I had a set in the 85s hand in the SH forum I'd have donked for sure I think. Also with the A3s hand above, yeah if I had a set I'd probably raise to 60 or so. I shove for the extra FE but I obviously need to consider whether thats worth it, or whether I should keep my lines identical.

One thing I'm finding at 200nl is that its really the first level where I'm finding villains both capable of thinking clearly, and being prepared to act on their conclusions of my ranges. This means I need to be more considered and thoughtful of my own ranges and lines than I'm used to.

Just finished the month for me. A lot of work to get done today and in town tomorrow so this mornings session was the last for the month. Booked just over 1/2 buyin which tipped me back over $1k for the month. Wasn't even thinking about that, but its nice. Including bonus/promotions I cleared over $2k for the month. Should be super excited but just flat. Even though I beat 200nl for the month (barely) it feels hollow. Maybe my expectations were too high. It was fairly swingy so emotionally I went through some real highs and lows, so meh, maybe compared to my high points it doesn't feel as good. Going to go away and think about some things, will write up a monthly review later today or another day.

where the hell u getting the extra 1k? I want some, 27% RB on FT does suck

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

where the hell u getting the extra 1k? I want some, 27% RB on FT does suck

party, i've sent you a link you may find interesting, just some number analysis i did on some data from jyms and bjs

also

Originally Posted by BJSaust

Oh, I also was in a winning hand in Party's Genius promotion, $5k split 6 ways for $833 shipping my way Smile.

Yeah, nothing reproducible sorry. Genius hand plus I'm still clearing my $500 welcome bonus, think I cleared about $250-$300 of that this month, but after its gone (only $50 left) then I'm stuck with reload bonuses until I can afford to buy their bonuses and the one I want to buy will probably take me 5-6 months to save for. Your 27% on FT is probably better than I'll do on Party.

Ok, really havn't managed to come up with any great insights, but I'm away for the weekend so want to try to do a review of my month and 200nl especially before I go.

Graph first, 200nl starts around the 5k hands mark, so a bit over 7k hands of 200nl.



As mentioned, add in $833 genius promotion and I'm fairly sure $300 worth of welcome bonus cleared and I made over $1k in poker and over $2k total profit. Intellectually I know I should be happy about that, but I'm just not that excited. I ran at 4bb/100 (2ptbb/100) over my 7.7k hands of 200nl. Just making profit at my first shot should make me happy, but I really hoped to do better. Maybe my expectations were a bit high after crushing 50nl and 100nl for the last few months. As graph shows I ran a bit swingy. 8 buyin downswing from around 6.8 - 10k hands, then almost 10 buyins up from there to 12k then dropped almost 6 buyins like a rock before small recovery.

I dont feel like there was much spew or monkey tilt in there. Not much felt like my C game, but I think there was way too much B game. Didnt seem like I was playing terrible, but it did feel like anything other than my best resulted in losing too much. Like I really need to be at my best to beat the game. Spent the last day or two trying to point the finger at exactly whats wrong with my game, but tbh havnt had any success. My best guess is that its a few small things that add up together.

I really need to work on my aggression. My best session was one I recorded (never published) where I ran 23/18 with almost 10% 3bet and I just felt like I played great, but on average at 200nl I ran 19/14 with 4.3% 3bet and kept avoiding pulling the trigger in spots. More raising IP, more 3betting, more cbetting and barrelling. Just more aggression over all. Not monkey laggy, but my 'B' game seems to be based around finding excuses not to be aggressive, and my 'A' game seems to be when I avoid making excuses and just play that way. Problem is I find it really hard to turn it around if that's how I'm playing.

I have a few balance (and non-balance) things I need to work on. I still tend to have 'standard' spots which I stick to even if specific circumstances should dictate alternate plays. I'm getting to them.

Overall it just feels like my game is close, but not quite there yet, however until I get it there I wont beat it. Really hoping my 2hr sweat with Renton (hopefully next week, didnt manage to catch up this week) will help me sort some stuff out watching him play in similar games.

I guess for now I just hope I do well enough to stick around at 200nl until it does all come together.

good job bj, keep it up

Played only my 2nd session for the month tonight. Felt I played well but lost an AK < AQ for a stack about 1/2 hr in to put me down and feeling shitty, stuck with it though and kept my head. Won a flip to make me feel better then hit some hands. Ended up winning almost 2 buyins and less than 1/2 a buyin down on EV so all in all not too bad.

Had my 2hr sweat/coaching session with Renton (from the SH forum digest offer) yesterday. Really interesting. I knew what I wanted to focus on (primarily preflop ranges and flop play as well as considering what I'd do in spots and taking note of differences), which I think helped focus me in. I got what I wanted out of it I think. Going to be changing some of my ranges around, tried it both sessions so far this month and just felt much more comfortable. Some interesting spots where my passive play would have made me small pots where his aggression paid off. Mainly stuff where he considers what his range looks like and how that could be affecting his opponents play. Really interesting stuff I need to work on more. Was an enjoyable session, he described a lot of his plays he thought were interesting rather than just wait for me to ask questions, and when I did ask questions he gave good thorough answers. We also just chatted about stuff poker related and non-poker. He's someone I've never really talked to before so that was cool getting to know him a bit and hearing about where he's at etc.

Still a bit too passive preflop, caught myself a few times losing med pots postflop where I get into bad spots I wouldnt have if I'd just 3bet preflop when I probably should have. My VPIP is looking better but my PFR is a bit low still. 3bet is actually decent but I think thats sample size, I know I missed at least 6 good spots in my last session.

Kinda tired, cant really think well enough to give good info. Month starting well with 2.5 buyins from first 900 hands. Feeling good about my game after taking around 4 days off to get away and then last day or so really think about things.


Oh yeah, one concept I wanted to put out there for comment. A common suggestion for improving your 6-max game is to play HU. I've done a little on and off, but not much. I'm feeling pretty comfortable with my 6max game atm, but I wonder if I should start playing some HU as kinda training. If I do, what are peoples thoughts on just going all to HU for a period of time/hands, or just play it occassionally on and off?

If you want to do a volume prop bet for HU let me know. I'd like to get some in myself.

How about easing yourself into headsup by starting tables . You can always bail on the table as it starts to fill and start a new one , of if you get some fish snap them up before the other regs pile in.

go to a low stakes site anyway, just play some. dont just switch 100% since RB is murder at low HU games.

just one tbl 50nl on FTP maybe

Ben, just caught up on last two pages of thread after being away from pokerz for most of July. Nice job at 200nl - keep it up. GL with new job stuff and balancing it with life and pokerz. And I hope you are successful adding fitness to your weight loss.

Wow, it's like a whole new BJ since you made mod!

Apparantly I like to spew money and fishy villains like to hit the fricken nuts when I have close to. Meh, I dont even wanna go into it. One bad bluff (I thought it was good but people I showed it to disagreed) for a stack, 2.5 buyins lost with trips and a straight to mega fish on paired boards, losing flips, losing 85%+ hands all in, losing a heap of 70%+ hands that werent all in but they hit on river.

Its not that I played particularly well, but there werent a heap of bad plays in there, I just didnt hit good hands, if I did either they hit better or they folded.

Still torn on some of those hands.
1 bad that I knew was bad at the time cost me between 120 and 160.
1 bad that I thought was good at the time cost me 200
1 flip bad for 200

Total costs of all those hands account for about $900 but if I'd folded when I should have I'd have saved over $500 of my nearly $1k loss.

Then theres just a whole bunch of $20-$50 type hands. Bluffs that got raised, draws that didnt hit, folding when obvious draws came in. On the other hand I didnt seem to get paid with my good hands at all. The old 'bluffs got called but value bets didnt' trick.

Still not sure how much of the 2nd $500 was run bad and how much was play bad. Nothing like a big loss to ruin confidence.


Bit mixed up on what I want to do for the rest of the month. I really wont have much time to play this month. I'm done clearing my welcome bonus. Not sure its worth trying to reach Palladium this quarter. Tossing up between sticking at the 200nl and trying to sort myself out, or spending the rest of the month without playing any 200nl 6-max. Tempted to dedicate what time I have to playing HU for lower buyins, and learning omaha or something. Even dropping back to 25 or 50nl and playing a laggier style or something. I dunno, thoughts appreciated.

Originally Posted by dev

If you want to do a volume prop bet for HU let me know. I'd like to get some in myself.

Nah. Volume prop bets seem like a bad idea for me. Playing only when I'm right to play is more +EV than forcing hands in. Plus I really dont know how much time I'll have to dedicate myself.

Originally Posted by Robb

Ben, just caught up on last two pages of thread after being away from pokerz for most of July. Nice job at 200nl - keep it up. GL with new job stuff and balancing it with life and pokerz. And I hope you are successful adding fitness to your weight loss.

Wow, it's like a whole new BJ since you made mod!

Thanks Robb. Think I'm now break even at 200nl, so it could be worse. Feels like I'm so close but just not there yet. Things are pretty good in life atm. Really plowing through work atm. Had forgotten just how much I could get through when I really put effort into it. Fitness meh so far. Keep trying to commit to it, but keep failing. Getting better and better at b'ball though. Last nights game was probably my best in ages, so maybe some of the fitness is starting to kick in, combined with less weight helping me move better I guess.

Played...wow nearly a 3hr session today (so much for work ).

Dropped pretty quickly to 1.5 buyins down, ran even for a bit then dropped a few more down to -700 down, came back at the end to finish nearly even. Felt like I ran so bad, but definately some bad calls in there. Like villains hitting 10% chances on rivers but I'd still call even though that was likely they're holding. Maybe a bit of FPS in there. I dunno, read some stuff in recent hands in SH forum about lines being super strong in some places and therefore not optimal so I play them slower, but seemed like every time I did either villains caught up or a card hit to kill my action.

One improvement was my biggest loss was $125, although in another sense that means I lost over $700 at one point there without being stacked. Think it was mainly runbad. Calling stations catching up, people who fold a lot always hitting v's me, stuff like that.

Meh, I dunno, I'm finding it really hard to objectively decide how much is me playing bad and how much is just running bad. I tried to record this session but forgot I was doing it and left the recorder going for 3.5 hrs so just cancelled it. Maybe another one later.

Halfway through a vid from Giggy where he's advocating learning LAG style when you start poker. 2 main reasons, 1 you'll make a lot of mistakes but you learn from your mistakes, and 2 its easier for a LAG to tighten up as an adjustment than it is for a TAG to loosen up (hit home with me). I'm tempted to drop back to 50nl and try to work on that for a while then work my way back up.

After today I've gotten through 2.5k hands this week so far. I really only expected to play maybe 5-8k hands total this month, so maybe I'll do better than I thought volume wise. Then again, I cant imagine slacking off and playing too many more 3hr sessions going forward.

I've done the same recently, dropping back to 50 to work on playing laggier postflop mainly. My preflop game has always been like 22/18 or 20/16 so that seems fine, but just looking for spots postflop and trying some stuff seems cheaper/easier to do at 50 and experimenting a bit with different lines I wouldnt want to do at 200 or even 100.

I think it has had some benefits, but I also think the stuff that works at 50 might not work at 200 which is basically where we want to play.

Anyway, I think what's important is don't play the same limit every time because you feel it's what you should play. When you've hit a rough patch just play some 100 which you know you can beat. Think you want to try some things play some 50 or 100. Feeling great and some good tables available play some 200 or perhaps even 400 if the roll allows it.

Since I´m back I stopped experimenting with all that laggishness and opening it up and stuff. I have never felt so comfortable the last 100k hands, running 22/19ish, not 4b bluffing, not doing weird balancing stuff and not playing anything weird or talking myself into hero calls "cuz he´s repping so thin" or "cuz Im so exploitable and he knows it". 50nl players make enough mistakes anyway, most 100nl players do as well. The "competent" 100nl and 200nl people perceive any other reg to be a bit like the cool guys in the videos and most poor 28/25 people are exploited best by being super solid when they perceive us to be something else.

Id open up one day when I feel like theres good money left at the tables by not doing so and when I know Im ready for it. Not because someone said it´s cool to do so, Im rather exploiting those who mis-apply videotheory. Until then I enjoy the beauty of super solid ABC taggishness and feel good about exploiting bad LAGs and particularly being super solid when Im percieved to be something else. Dont forget that Giggy mentions, how he´s mainly trying to give the impression of being LAGish, while hes essentially a big pot nit.

I think a big mistake people make when trying to LAG it up is by opening all sorts of hands all over the place to get their vpip/pfr up to like 29/25 or something like that.

I think you're better off opening a TONNNN on button/CO and still keeping UTG and UTG+1 pretty tight though.

I'm the poster child for playing "bad lag" like XTR and Grif said, trying to be one of the cool kids (hey ISF and Nutsinho do it!!) and opening hands I shouldn't in positions I shouldn't. And barely breaking even for 25k hands. I'm kinda where XTR is: I'll play super solid TAGG and profit.

Yeah, definately Giggy is talking about taking lots of stabs in small pots and being a nit in disguise in the big ones. Question is how well that translates. I just know that v's other TAG regs I play pretty straightfoward and have trouble opening up or exploiting them. Its not that I dont make moves, but I dunno, it feels like I have a few tools rather than a whole toolshed. I definately get uncomfortable trying to increase my ranges and being stabby.

being one of 5 Taggs at a table fighting over 60BB stacks of the lone fish is a lot tougher than learning to Lagg it up a bit and steal a ton while they wait to get the fishy's money. Being a laggier player (according to Giggy and Samo) allows you to change gears more comfortably by switching to Tagg as they adjust to your steals and 3bets than it is for a Tagg to switch gears and start playing big pots lightly.

Originally Posted by jyms

being one of 5 Taggs at a table fighting over 60BB stacks of the lone fish is a lot tougher than learning to Lagg it up a bit and steal a ton while they wait to get the fishy's money. Being a laggier player (according to Giggy and Samo) allows you to change gears more comfortably by switching to Tagg as they adjust to your steals and 3bets than it is for a Tagg to switch gears and start playing big pots lightly.

I see where all this is coming from. My point is just, and I could be mistaken, that nowadays a decent % of the other 4 TAGs at our table are already trying those LAG strats and most of them do this in a very poor way. Furthermore I see a lot of people even at 50nl 4b bluffing, 5b shoveling A3s, check-jamming bare overs in 3bet pots or pulling supposedly sophisticated multiple street bluffs vs not-so-weak-ranges. I take that as evidence, that staying in line lets us exploit our perceived ranges very well.

I ran at like 2ptbb/100 at 50NL 6m
then I learned HU and how to rape nits and I started running at 5ptbb/100 at 50NL 6m and continued at that pace at 100NL 6m

50NL/100NL regs have massive leaks in their games
one guy would play the same tight range vs. 3bs no matter how high my 3b got and then he would c/f flops that he missed, so I 3b him ATC and cbet every flop (yes I would 3b him 100% of the time)
another guy would just hero call me all fucking day so I started going for three streets of value with TPNK

these are adjustments that are on the "laggy" side I guess, but they're good adjustments against the people I am playing with
and I would suspect that playing this way really reveals the weakness of your opponents' because they don't know how to deal with someone who is pushing them around, they either play too nit or start calling too much

Originally Posted by XTR1000

Originally Posted by jyms

being one of 5 Taggs at a table fighting over 60BB stacks of the lone fish is a lot tougher than learning to Lagg it up a bit and steal a ton while they wait to get the fishy's money. Being a laggier player (according to Giggy and Samo) allows you to change gears more comfortably by switching to Tagg as they adjust to your steals and 3bets than it is for a Tagg to switch gears and start playing big pots lightly.

I see where all this is coming from. My point is just, and I could be mistaken, that nowadays a decent % of the other 4 TAGs at our table are already trying those LAG strats and most of them do this in a very poor way. Furthermore I see a lot of people even at 50nl 4b bluffing, 5b shoveling A3s, check-jamming bare overs in 3bet pots or pulling supposedly sophisticated multiple street bluffs vs not-so-weak-ranges. I take that as evidence, that staying in line lets us exploit our perceived ranges very well.

Maybe I'm running bad, I cant remember the last time I caught a reg bluffing beyond a cbet.

I can see where jyms/giggy/iopq are coming from, but I'm at a point in my game where I've got a huge postflop edge against LAGGs and TAGGs whenever I can stay aggressive and attack wide/weak ranges or nittiness. I'm better with a 6m VPiP ~ 20 and more 3b/4b than playing a 28/21 style. And I don't think it's mega exploitable (iopq may disagree?). I also agree with XTR that most 100nl regs suck postflop regardless of preflop stats. If I play too loose pre, I lose my postflop edge.

Wouldn't mind improving my game so that last sentence wasn't true. :P

Robb: your style is not exploitable, but to be exploiting the other regs you have to have an exploitive style. So in fact when I'm running 28/21 I'm trying to exploit regs that don't defend their blinds enough, regs that cbet once and fold to raises too much, etc.
btw my 3b is 7.5%

Most 100nl regs are bad postflop, but I dont find that as much at 200nl, I'd say thats the biggest difference.

This could border on a whine thread, so I want to avoid that.

Been doing some HEM filters. I'm losing about the amount I'm down in pots where vpip=true, saw flop = true and won or lost BBs less than 30. So basically losing in small - med pots. Of those I'm way down in hands where I call (or check call or whatever) and up nicely in hands where I bet or raise. Seems to indicate that a lot of it comes back to my flop aggression factor again. I've worked my vpip/pfr and 3bet numbers up to nice figures, but Aggr Factor is still low, even though I've been trying to work on it.

I think some of it is actually related to PF. I've been calling too much pf which I think leads to a higher percent of calling postflop rather than betting with initiative.

Theres probably more investigation I should do, go deeper. Like remove the BB filter and see how I'm going in just all pots where I call flop, stuff like that. Seems like a fair path of investigation though.

Double check that your not counting blinds. They are a killer. I usually only look at the four non blind positions and look at blinds separately.

No blinds, I set vpip = true in the filter so I need to choose to put money in.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Been doing some HEM filters. I'm losing about the amount I'm down in pots where vpip=true, saw flop = true and won or lost BBs less than 30. So basically losing in small - med pots. Of those I'm way down in hands where I call (or check call or whatever) and up nicely in hands where I bet or raise. Seems to indicate that a lot of it comes back to my flop aggression factor again.

Id be careful with blaming your aggro factor alone. Your ranges for "check, call" are obv way weaker than those for "bet, raise", same goes for range subsets with initiative and those without. Can be difficult to compare apples and pears here. Instead, Id look closely, if I can strengthen my ranges for passive lines a bit.

Protecting c/f´ing ranges by playing c/c some more and c/r thinner for value come first to mind.

Originally Posted by XTR1000

Id look closely, if I can strengthen my ranges for passive lines a bit.

On the surface this seems to make sense, but I really think I have a problem with making excuses to play passively instead of aggressively, and this seems like it would add to it.

Originally Posted by XTR1000

c/r thinner for value

The c/r line is so strong, you can expand the range a good bit and still get tons of folds. I opened it up by including a few TPTK and then some underpairs/air. This helps me keep my check/something lines balanced when I'm PFR and oop. I used to auto-lead any reasonable flop.

I officially overused c/ring flops
regs start playing back at me and peeling flops and crap
so now I'm just going to do it when it's like mandatory (like perfect board to bluff)

Did a vid of me playing 200nl. Dont want to make it public, but if people want to watch it and give me any feedback I'd send it to some regs I trust.

Had a coaching session with Renton today. Went really well. Was up a few buyins at one point but ended up dropping a couple in the last 10-15 mins, one due to a miscommunication. It was interesting, because a couple of times he'd advise me about a spot I played wrong, then I'd apply that to what I thought was the same spot and he could correct me and show me why it wasnt correct in the new case (often as a result of different positions).

Lost almost 2 buyins for the day total though. Thats now 9 buyins for the month, my last 6 sessions in a row, and 13 buyins from my peak last month. I'm now actually only up $800 total on Party so far this year.

Chances are I'll be moving down to 100nl again. I havnt actually reached my BRM planned move down point, but as you'd imagine confidence is taking a beating. I'm actually manage to lose at the impressive rate of $100 p/h so far this month. Maybe only for a few buyins, but we'll see how it goes.

Just move down when you feel like it and convince yourself that when you move down you'll own everyone. It will give you confidence faster.

Stayed at 200nl for one more session, lost another $500 (man, so many people had worse 1P that hit 2P on me). Anyway, no more whining.

Roll is down to $5k pretty much on the dot which was/is my move down point. So 100nl it is. I really feel like I should have beaten 200nl, but my confidence is just shot. Feels like I'm expecting to lose (or get all folds). So 100nl, casually from now on. Not going to try to force hands, even if it means I dont clear my reload bonus. Only play when I feel good and feel like playing. Only 3 tables at a time (been more like 4-5 lately). Really focus on only playing good poker. I think I got up to almost $8.5k which had me real close to my $10k goal. I think a combination of focusing on winning rather than playing well, and emotional impact of feeling like I was basically there and having it snatched away conspired against me, to put me into a bad spot mentally.

Not sure when I'll take my next shot. Will definately be at $6k or above, but could be as much as $8k or more. I'll do it when I feel good about doing it, rather than on some specific amount.

Probably be playing less for a while. Not surprisingly I'm finding myself more interested in other things atm, but will stick with it. Came real close to just quitting. $5k would have given me my immediate and most desired purchases out of poker, but theres no way I could ever start up again, so it would be an all or nothing decision. Not quite prepared to do that yet, would prefer to just break for a month or two if I really couldnt continue.

I have not read this thread, and I want to start reading it from the beginning.

From everything I have read you are an awesome player, but maybe the competition is so hard at 200 NL that there is difficult to gain a significant edge, especially when playing long sessions.

I am starting to think that it is difficult to make serious money at online poker. I have read posts concerning the "Golden Age of Poker", where you could 3-bet all hands in position and bet 1/2 pot every flop and be a big winner. It does not seem as easy anymore.

Luckily I do not rely on money from poker at all, but I can imagine the incredible stress it must be doing this for a living.

You mentioned you were close to quitting, but that you could not stand the thought of starting over- I have excactly the same thoughts. To sum them up:

1. Poker takes quite some time, especially if you want to make some money doing it and count for variance.

2. That time, at least for me, is better spent irl honing my social skills and working/studying to become who I want to be.

3. At the stakes where I want to play, most players are professional and they have significantly more experience than me. I do not want to be another Guy Laliberte.

I plan to withdraw all but 100 USD. Then I can play the occasional SNG and some micro cash- purely for the fun of it.

Maybe we just experienced the downswing blues though...

U really have to stop thinking in terms of $$$ and more in BIs. A -500 sesh is nothing in terms of buyins...but is a fair amt of $$$. Also stop fretting over the size of your bankroll...your bankroll is just a tool to make more money and as long as u still have one, you can still make plenty of cash im sure.

Wise words Antman.

I lost a 500 dollar pot today with JJJQQ, against QQQQx- and my pulse meter did not show any rise in pulse whatsoever.

A happy note- I started pwning again. And even if my villains hit every draw and did not make too many mistakes, I was winning. I got my confidence back and started representing on boards that hit my range.

These 200NL regs are so aggressive and often loose too- I started tightening up my range, but made some advanced moves.

For example, a big money winner for me was calling people who 3-bet light, floating the flop, and repping the turn/river.

These guys are good, but imo many of them has lost their patience in their game. They are used to outplaying most players, and thus play too many hands and bluff way too much both pre and post flop.

Good luck BJ, I know you will start pwning these 200NL noobs soon!

The advice may be wise, the execution however isnt easy. I KNOW I need to think in terms of buyins, but when I look at HEM I see -$500, or if I look at my balance on Party I see its $3.5k lower than it was a month ago.

Bankroll is two things. 1 is for BRM. Reaching $5k means I need to move down. Getting close to $5k meant I was close to moving down. On the other hand, I think part of my problem was seeing $8.3k and thinking "man, I'm less than 10 buyins from $10k!!". I mentally banked those ten buyins because I was going fairly well. So emotionally, not only am I back down to $5k, but I'm back down to $5k after being so close to $10k.

I know thats not helpful, and is probably counterproductive, but when I'm lying in bed at night thats how my head works.

Sorry about the recent stuff, Ben. Hang in there buddy. The lying in bed stuff literally gets to me so much. I have just invested in a nice bedding arrangement (god I'm gay) specifically because of poker. Probably doesn't help to have a baby screaming at you nightly I bet.

Lol, our baby sleeps. Only excuse for me not getting at least 8hrs a night is my brain working too hard .

No real update, just a note to say I played today. Started Sept with a winning 100nl session, so hopefully things will start to roll on. Played a mix of HU and 6-max. Didnt play great, but able to read things pretty well, made most of the folds I should have (even the ones where I was obviously ahead on turn and river f'd me).

Not sure how much playing I'll get done in Sept. Got some other things I'm focusing on also now, and works still busy. Hope to get back to at least a few sessions a week though.

step one to not obsessing about money would be to stop making money goals which tbh I'm surprised to see you doing because I though you knew better. I can't think of one helpful thing a money goal does for you. I don't want to offend anyone but whenever I see an op banner with money on it I already know that person probably does not have the right mind set. There is a reason this forum is littered with failed $XXXX or bust/by xx/ for my car payment threads and it isn't that the posters are bad at blogging.

Look at the title - ben learns poker and builds a roll. Nice! On what page did it become Ben makes 10k or cries trying? You're not going to miss the benchmarks when they happen and they will still feel just as great (even though it's an arbitrary point you picked on a journey). So setting the goal gives you a chance to feel like you failed, play bad once you almost get there and just barely get passed it (can't slip below 10k!!)... and nothing else.

Also I don't know how much "I'm down XYZ vs EV" you've done in these 20 pages but if you can't stop that, I would quit blogging altogether. Another reason a lot of these things fail (and why I almost never read them) is these blogs are a great place to whine without getting stuff moved to the tilt forum and get people to feel bad for you. That encourages you to keep seeing people putting money in behind against you as a bad thing. We all battle against that after some beats but I really think having a bunch of people smile and nod while you revel in your 'downswing' is very bad for your mindset. You're certainly going to feel it when you aren't running good but the sooner you learn to deal with and process that crap out by yourself the better off you are. If you're too tilted from running bad to play that's fine (or at least a different post) but again I don't see the value in posting about it.

I try not to discuss EV too much, if I do its just in a session (i.e., would have broken even but losing 3 flips in a row left me 3 buyins below EV). Longterm I really cant complain about EV. If I could remove it from HEM I would, but once its there its hard to ignore altogether.

As for money goals, I dont display sigs so I dont see my own banner. I update it approximately once a month. Aside from that, my money goals are really withdrawal goals. $10k isnt significant in itself, but its the point where I've decided I can withdraw $2.5k without affecting my roll signficantly (even though it would be 25% of my roll, it would still leave me fairly comfortably rolled at 200nl afterwards).

I get your points though, and appreciate the advice. I definitely think concentrating on the money has been bad and that I played better when I just played to play well. Maybe just checking results once a week or something might work better, although it would be hard to review hands without seeing my session results.

The doctor makes some great points and I myself have bounced between preaching these and doing these. I for one had a real issue when I started assigning the value of the cash to my game when playing $200NL, I made a few withdrawals and suddenly losing buyins just before a planned withdrawal became "There goes the new chair" " There goes the new DVD" "Could have bought xxxxxx with that" after sessions.

I'm not saying don't look at results, you know +- a BI anyway playing 4 tables I'm sure. The point is the money can't be the goal, playing hands/optimal tables/tourneys or w/e is the goal. you'll think plenty about the money anyway. Again, ask yourself what you're getting out of setting a money goal. I guarantee you'll remember to try and win money regardless.

setting a hand goal and meeting it is something you can do every week and pat yourself on the back. Even better, this goal feels much MORE rewarding when you have a terrible month and meet it anyway.

If you don't want a volume goal, how about something you can do every session? It sounds like you think you play too tight, so every session over X hands try and make one bluff or thin VB you would not have made 3 months ago. Then expand to 2, etc.

Also I say this to everyone whenever they ask anything but learn some new games, maybe take one sess a week and play something else. It will make your poker brain a lot better and may make HE seem less dull and grindy.

Yeah, I dont like volume goals because my standard of play really slips if I try to force hands when I'm not in the right headspace to play.

I like the idea of coming up with other goals though. If nothing else it could distract me. I guess its all well and good to say 'dont set money goals', but once you've started thinking about the money its hard to stop. Even if I just want to play well for a session, I still find it hard not to care if I won or lost, especially as I got close to the $10k. Again, less about the $10k as a figure, but that was (is) going to be the start of actually making withdrawals and earning something from this poker thing. On the other hand, if I make a goal before each session, like you say make one bluff where I'd normally chicken out (the fear of looking stupid as Griffey puts it), then hopefully focusing on that instead will help to detract from the money. At the moment it kind of feels like theres nothing really much else to focus on.

Thanks.

Be process oriented instead of results oriented. The goal is to play your A game as much as possible.