Operation: George 'n' Weezy

Operation Fish Fry was a resounding success. Now I'm moving on up like George 'n' Weezy.

Goals:
1. Earn 600 BB at 1/2 limit holdem
2. 4.0 BB/100 win rate - yes I do think it's very possible. Even likely.

Not setting goals for VP$IP, agg factor, etc. My preflop game is good enough now to not worry too much about it anymore.

Setting a high BB goal, because after this it is 2/4. I want to be well banked when I get there.

EDIT: Will periodically update progress on this chart. The BB on the left is incorrect, that is actually dollars.

Originally Posted by lhoney2

2. 4.0 BB/100 win rate - yes I do think it's very possible. Even likely.

If your long term win-rate is even close to that you should be playing at least 2/4.

10K hands of .50/1.00 I have a win rate of 4.84 BB/100. Even at 10K, a couple of big pots can make it fluctuate quite a bit, so I'm not taking a lot of stock in it.

Fnord - if everything goes well, I'll be at 2/4 sometimes in December or January. I've only been playing holdem since July, so cut me some slack!

http://cardsspeak.servebeer.com/archives/2004_11.html

Originally Posted by hdouble

I was thinking about my climb up the ladder in limits, and remembered some advice I received before I started playing poker. A fellow card counter said in an email, "My only advice is some I wish I had when I was starting out. Move up in limits as fast as you can."

Dangerous advice, of course, but if you have a conservative interpretation of "as fast as you can", then I think this is excellent advice. As long as you're playing within your bankroll and have a mind for the game, it doesn't take too long to get comfortable in the game at the next higher limit. One of my favorite passages in Jesse May's "Shut up and Deal" addresses the difference between the bigger games and the smaller games:

"The entire table can't help but hear him say, "I'd just like to know one thing - what is the biggest difference between playing 100-200 and 10-20?" I look at him and say, "The limit - this is a different limit," and he gives me an uncomprehending look and then smiles because he thinks I'm joking and says again, "No, really, I mean what's the major difference in play in these games?" And I say, "The chips are different - these chips are worth more money." And I say it completely deadpan and now he thinks I'm taking the piss out of him and he wipes the smile off his face. I see Johnny trying hard not to laugh. "You see if we were playing 10-20 we would be using red chips, but we're not." Everybody thinks I'm trying to make a fool out this guy, but I'm just saying the only completely honest thing that I can. But it's not what this guy wants to hear. I want to shake him. I want to shout, "Look at me! Listen to me! There is no difference in play!!" But I don't say that, I just repeat in a small voice, "This is a higher limit. The game is exactly the same as 10-20 but we use different chips."

I've been right before, right?

If you have the budget, move to 2/4 full or 1/2 6 max. Your game is good enough for either one.

Fnord - you should join us in IRC sometime.

mike4066 fnord says you should be playing 2/4 lonnie
lhoney2 yeh, about 10 times now
lhoney2 he won't let up
lhoney2 these 1/2 players are HORRIBLE
lhoney2 i'm diggin it
mike4066 exactly why we need to move up
BigRed` u guys playing limit?
lhoney2 he just wants me to move to 2/4 because he still plays some 2/4
lhoney2 he wants to school me some more at HIS game
BigRed` what's the rule of thumb for deciding where you play at limit
BigRed` like what money table
lhoney2 skill + bankroll
gutshot 14:18 < lhoney2> these 1/2 players are HORRIBLE
gutshot 14:18 < lhoney2> i'm diggin it
gutshot 14:19 < mike4066> exactly why we need to move up
gutshot thats a total contradiction of everything holy about poker
lhoney2 haha
gutshot slaps mike
BigRed` that's not what i meant lhoney
lhoney2 ok, what do you mean?
BigRed` like, xBB to play at this table in your bankroll
mike4066 haha
BigRed` bankroll specifically
lhoney2 oh, 300 BB
BigRed` not skill
lhoney2 is what I hear
BigRed` ok
mike4066 300bb's is the number preached by everyone.
BigRed` so 1/2 would mean you need $600?
lhoney2 I think you could get by with 150 though
gutshot correct
mike4066 gutshot they are just as bad at 2/4
BigRed` sng's are 5x buyin?
mike4066 the 2/4 players are terrible too.
mike4066 SnGs are 10x
lhoney2 the 300 BB rule is kinda sketchy though, because that is assuming, that is all the money you could ever devote to the game
mike4066 but I say 20x
gutshot mike4066: hehe. thats what i hear. i had to give you a little razzing
mike4066 well 1/2 would be moving up for me..
mike4066 i'm still in .5/1
lhoney2 yeh, hurry up mike
BigRed` i'm not that much of a fan of limit
lhoney2 limit rulez
mike4066 neither am i
mike4066 but the money is nice
lhoney2 NL droolz

Horrible session last... This was one of my first times going on tilt. Early on in the session had trips cracked twice. I began playing a few too many hands, and overplaying them. I wasn't necessarily playing horrible, but I was putting myself in bad position. I'll fire up PokerTracker and post the hands that were the biggest net losers when I get home. Maybe some of you can offer some insight into what I specifically did wrong last night, if anything.

Net loss for yesterday (-48 BB)

Never had a day losing this much money. I was just talking IRC chat the other day about how I hadn't had any major downswings since playing poker.

Will be interesting to see how I withstand this beat. I have decided to drop down to .50/1.00 for awhile if I lose 25 more BB. Hopefully I will find an upswing and the fallback position will not be necessary. Right now I need to go home and see if I can figure out if it was bad cards, bad play or a combination of both.

I'll post hands later.

Originally Posted by Lonnie

Net loss for yesterday (-48 BB)

-48BB is a good start. It's not -100BB, but the whole 1 day aspect gives it a nice sting. Everytime I've gone through one of these I've come back stronger. Drop down if you must, but you really should be playing at tables with a couple other thinking players...

Everytime I've gone through one of these I've come back stronger.

You didn't elaborate on why you came back stronger, Fnord, but I would assume it is because you put in the time and effort to find out why you lost. That's what I need to do if this gets any worse. Or is it just that the cards turned around for you? I doubt the latter.

Losing creates self doubt. The luck factor in poker makes it very difficult to ascertain whether you are playing badly or the cards are just running cold.

If you were really playing well, but start tinkering with your game, this could have a snowball effect, trashing your game even further. I don't want to go down that path.

I determined I can sustain another -25 BB in this swing without much damage to my poker psyche, so I will play on without major tweaks. Could be that I just needed a night of rest and some reflection on my game as a whole. How many "What a difference a day makes." posts have we seen here.

I'll try not to self destruct on this little swing.

Fnord - why should he play "at tables with a couple other thinking players"?

I started at .5/1 and it's like taking candy from babies., currently 2500 hands, >12 BB/100.

1/2 was just the same for a whle, them I hit the same kinda losing streak - I think this is a totally typical losing streak, and it dropped me down to 2.15 BB/100.

Is the point that you won't learn anything against weaker players? I guess it depends on yoru goals, and whether or not you want to "go pro" or not.

Originally Posted by Lonnie

You didn't elaborate on why you came back stronger, Fnord, but I would assume it is because you put in the time and effort to find out why you lost. That's what I need to do if this gets any worse. Or is it just that the cards turned around for you? I doubt the latter.

It prompts you to spend time looking into the little leaks and helps you put it all in perspective. When you're on a run, you're on top of the world. A little downturn is humbling.

Also, it helps you build up resistance to the little beats or smaller swings. Allowing you to continue playing without too much effect.

Originally Posted by zenbitz

I started at .5/1 and it's like taking candy from babies., currently 2500 hands, >12 BB/100.

Your sample size is wicked small. I once dropped 50BB within an hour two tabling .5/1...

Originally Posted by zenbitz

1/2 was just the same for a whle, them I hit the same kinda losing streak - I think this is a totally typical losing streak, and it dropped me down to 2.15 BB/100.

There is a reason that 3BB/100 is a very high long term win rate.

Originally Posted by zenbitz

Is the point that you won't learn anything against weaker players?

Something like that. Maybe you'll never have the roll for 15/30, but I think every online limit player should strive to at least move up to 2/4 or 3/6 and learn to soundly beat the game. From there B&M, home games, etc. is a cakewalk.

Originally Posted by Lonnie

Losing creates self doubt. The luck factor in poker makes it very difficult to ascertain whether you are playing badly or the cards are just running cold.

One more point...

This is what Poker Tracker is great for. It can point out or eliminate a lot of areas as possible leaks. Although there are a lot of queries I wish it had...

Profit/Loss when facing a turn raise
Folded best hand post-flop
Missed river bets
# of sets vs expectation for a given pocket pair
...

Great places to start looking:
Cold calls
Suited connectors
Small suited Aces
Other specific hand play
Overall PFR + VP$IP compared to opposition and other good players with a similar approach.
Count sets vs expectation on losing pocket pairs
"Steal" situation performance
EV in the blinds. Most good players total around -0.25BB or less.

Originally Posted by Fnord

This is what Poker Tracker is great for. It can point out or eliminate a lot of areas as possible leaks. Although there are a lot of queries I wish it had...

Profit/Loss when facing a turn raise
Folded best hand post-flop
Missed river bets
# of sets vs expectation for a given pocket pair
...

Come on' fnord, your a porgramer, its an access DB you can whip up something to figure this out can't you?

Thanks, Fnord - and I do know it's ridiculously small sample.

That is why I am working on my own poker tracker, it's kind of crude, but I can at least add any query I think of.

By "missed river bets" do you mean bets/raises you should have made with best hand but you called/checked instead?

Taking a day or two break from 1/2 while I get my game and my wits back together. Somewhere along the line I tightened my preflop starting hand selection up and kept my PFR% the same. Think I am being slightly over aggressive pre-flop. May have a few other quirks too. Will spend a few thousand hands at .50/1.00 until I figure it out.

Had a small slump in the middle of Fish Fry and worked the kinks out at .25/.50...

Playing 1/2 again. Looked at PokerTracker some more, and couldn't find any major holes.. I think I am just running into higher caliber players here and will have to cut my teeth.

I'm also getting a run of bad luck with good starting cards. All of the hands below are historically big winners for me except for 33 (slight loser) and QJo (slight winner). If these hands alone were winning at their normal rate I would probably be in the green overall.

These are 1/2 hands from PT sorted by biggest net losers (starting cards)



Edit: I will be posting hands later when Bisonbison determines we can have the converter back.

Originally Posted by Lonnie

Playing 1/2 again. Looked at PokerTracker some more, and couldn't find any major holes.. I think I am just running into higher caliber players here and will have to cut my teeth.

LMAO. Nope, just running bad. Many members of this board under-estimate the impact luck has on this game in the short term.

Cmon, Fnord, I'll bet you could put together a converter for FTR in a matter of hours. Surprised you didnt do it already.

Originally Posted by Fnord

LMAO. Nope, just running bad. Many members of this board under-estimate the impact luck has on this game in the short term.

I've been telling him this for 2 damn days and he WON'T listen to me.

You won 2/6 with KK, 1/5 with TT, and 0/5 with QQ. These hands alone account for -33 BB, and they'll be long run winners if you're any good.

Also, losing with trips doesn't happen that often, and you've lost two in 1K hands. I'd have a hard time not losing at least 5BB when I lose with trips.

Just keep plugging along.

BTW, I whole heartedly agree with Fnord about the difference between the limits. Playing $2/$4 at Empire over the weekend while a Neteller transfer cleared, I saw some of the biggest fish I'd ever seen at any level. I'm talking 80% VP$IP and 1% PFR. And there were at least two at every table. There were also a couple of 50% VP$IP and 5% PFR "see the flop gamblers" at every table.

Sure, there will be a few more good players at 2/4 than .5/1, but that's what PT is for. Set up auto rate, fire up auto import, and open a game time window. Then pick on the fish, and stay out of the way of the TA-N and TA-A players.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Sure, there will be a few more good players at 2/4 than .5/1, but that's what PT is for. Set up auto rate, fire up auto import, and open a game time window. Then pick on the fish, and stay out of the way of the TA-N and TA-A players.

This is why I think 1/2 is a silly limit. So many 2/4 players are really bad. Once you learn what the #*&% you're doing at the .5/1 table, 2/4 is the next step if you can afford the roll you need to play.

You know what the $*&% you're doing. Move out of the little league and up to AA ball.

CARDSON
Been fighting back the past few days, chipping away at the hole I put myself in. Finally winning at the 1/2 level again.

Two back to back hands put me in the black:

Hand 1



***** Hand History for Game 1189994270 *****
$1/$2 Hold'em - Wednesday, November 17, 17:39:44 EDT 2004
Table Lion's den (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: Selindek6 ( $59.5 )
Seat 3: tmugs ( $141.5 )
Seat 5: amicis1 ( $51.5 )
Seat 6: Doverboy ( $51.37 )
Seat 7: tt1312 ( $74.73 )
Seat 8: VisitorX ( $42.5 )
Seat 9: bigfrankk52 ( $78.25 )
Seat 10: Tnicolosi ( $25.38 )
Seat 4: lhoney2 ( $99.5 )
Seat 1: mabalser ( $39 )
Doverboy posts small blind [$0.5].
tt1312 posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lhoney2 [ Td Qd ]
VisitorX folds.
bigfrankk52 folds.
Tnicolosi folds.
mabalser calls [$1].
Selindek6 folds.
tmugs folds.
lhoney2 calls [$1].
amicis1 folds.
Doverboy calls [$0.5].
tt1312 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4c, Jd, Ad ]
Doverboy bets [$1].
tt1312 calls [$1].
mabalser folds.
lhoney2 raises [$2].
Doverboy folds.
tt1312 calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ]
tt1312 checks.
lhoney2 bets [$2].
tt1312 calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ Kd ]
tt1312 checks.
lhoney2 bets [$2].
tt1312 calls [$2].
lhoney2 shows [ Td, Qd ] Royal Flush.
tt1312 shows [ 3d, Ac ] a flush, ace high.
lhoney2 wins $16.25 from the main pot with Royal Flush.



The very next hand, at the same table,lightning strikes again...

Hand 2

***** Hand History for Game 1189997428 *****
$1/$2 Hold'em - Wednesday, November 17, 17:40:40 EDT 2004
Table Lion's den (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: Selindek6 ( $59.5 )
Seat 3: tmugs ( $141.5 )
Seat 5: amicis1 ( $51.5 )
Seat 6: Doverboy ( $49.37 )
Seat 7: tt1312 ( $67.73 )
Seat 8: VisitorX ( $42.5 )
Seat 9: bigfrankk52 ( $78.25 )
Seat 10: Tnicolosi ( $25.38 )
Seat 4: lhoney2 ( $108.75 )
Seat 1: mabalser ( $38 )
tt1312 posts small blind [$0.5].
VisitorX posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to lhoney2 [ 9d 9h ]
bigfrankk52 folds.
Tnicolosi folds.
mabalser calls [$1].
Selindek6 folds.
tmugs calls [$1].
tt1312: I was real close to beating u
lhoney2 calls [$1].
amicis1 raises [$2].
Doverboy folds.
tt1312 folds.
VisitorX folds.
mabalser calls [$1].
tmugs calls [$1].
lhoney2 calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, Jh, 3d ]
mabalser checks.
tmugs bets [$1].
lhoney2 raises [$2].
amicis1 calls [$2].
mabalser folds.
tmugs calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8c ]
tmugs bets [$2].
Doverboy: u better stick to beating yourself
lhoney2 raises [$4].
amicis1 folds.
tmugs calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
tmugs bets [$2].
tmugs: sorry dover, somebody else is going to get this. i gotta go eat.
lhoney2 raises [$4].
tmugs calls [$2].
lhoney2 shows [ 9d, 9h ] four of a kind, nines.
tmugs doesn't show [ Th, Jc ] two pairs, jacks and nines.
lhoney2 wins $30.5 from the main pot with four of a kind, nines.


I love poker.

I raise both hands pre-flop

Well, if you played poker for 2-3 hrs a day for the rest of your life, you wont have another rush like that for 12 billion days. Quit now...


-'rilla


NOTE: No actual math was harmed or even called upon in the formation of this post. I did doodle a small matrix but it really didn't help me much.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Well, if you played poker for 2-3 hrs a day for the rest of your life, you wont have another rush like that for 12 billion days. Quit now...

Best hand is the best hand, whatever the ranking...

100+BB in 1k hands is my idea of a rush...

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Well, if you played poker for 2-3 hrs a day for the rest of your life, you wont have another rush like that for 12 billion days. Quit now...

Best hand is the best hand, whatever the ranking...

100+BB in 1k hands is my idea of a rush...

Oh yah... cuz thats exhiliarting!

You need a hobby with more BANG for its buck.

-'rilla

I raise both hands pre-flop

Really? So you like to raise Fnord? How about a shorter list: playable hands that you don't raise. This isn't 6-max, and these chasers aren't fazed by a raise. One of the looser 1/2 tables I've seen. Actually employed some table selection for this one, then fell back into my Pacific .25 game mode. Finding you can't just have one speed for all games...

Well, if you played poker for 2-3 hrs a day for the rest of your life, you wont have another rush like that for 12 billion days.

I just wanted one Royal Flush during my poker career. Now that I got it, I'm good.

100+BB in 1k hands is my idea of a rush..

Had a slightly better rush than this during Operation: Fish Fry, and it WAS better. The thing that made these two hands particularly sweet was that I managed to get back in the black at 1/2 after a long struggle (~2000hands). The four of a kind was the hand that pushed me into the positive. I was -60 BB two days ago.

Originally Posted by Lonnie

Really? So you like to raise Fnord? How about a shorter list: playable hands that you don't raise. This isn't 6-max, and these chasers aren't fazed by a raise. One of the looser 1/2 tables I've seen. Actually employed some table selection for this one, then fell back into my Pacific .25 game mode. Finding you can't just have one speed for all games...

I like the chance to get a loose limper heads up and/or make the blinds pay to play. I'm only a 10% or so PFR these days at a full table

I also like it when the flop is A rag rag; bet, fold...
or blank, blank, blank; bet, call. blank; bet, fold...

Originally Posted by Lonnie

I raise both hands pre-flop

Really? So you like to raise Fnord? How about a shorter list: playable hands that you don't raise. This isn't 6-max, and these chasers aren't fazed by a raise. One of the looser 1/2 tables I've seen. Actually employed some table selection for this one, then fell back into my Pacific .25 game mode. Finding you can't just have one speed for all games...

Raising has so many advantages, especially against players that play too many hands and take them too far. Realize that QTs is a much stronger hand than what many of your opponents are playing, and it plays well multiway.

Taking a brief hiatus from George n Weezy. My limit game has grown stale and is really not good enough at this point for 1/2. Going to dabble with micro NL ring for a week or so and read some books.

Limit: 1/2
3,826 hands
-84 BB's
-2.19 BB/100
16.39 % VP$IP
6.53% PFR
1.27 Total agg (including PFR)

Originally Posted by Lonnie

Taking a brief hiatus from George n Weezy. My limit game has grown stale and is really not good enough at this point for 1/2. Going to dabble with micro NL ring for a week or so and read some books.

Did you hit your head really hard and are suffering from temporary brain damage? Short of that, you're fine. Variance happens.

Did you hit your head really hard and are suffering from temporary brain damage? Short of that, you're fine. Variance happens.

I think I may have. It actually feels like I forgot how to play poker. I guess this kind of thing happens. I need to learn how to not let good or bad swings affect the way I play my hands. On good swings it seems like I start playing too many hands too aggressively. On bad swings it seems like I tighten up too much. Gotta quit letting results dictate my play.

Just another bump in the learning curve.

BTW - Natural - please unsticky this thread.

Unsticky, quiter J/K I've had the same thoughs about mine.

Lonnie, your focusing too much on short term results.

You remember all those pretty graphs we made? Well those were made from 20,000 + hands! not 1,000. Pick any 1,000 hands from within that range and I'm sure you'll see swings there too. Pick the worst 1000 hands and I'm sure you'll be like HOLY SHIT!

I actually hit a -130BB slide at one point and never realized it because I wasn't looking at short term results. (well that and it was spread on 2 poker sites ) But the point is to think long term.

Mike and Lonnie,

You both are quitters!!!!! thats why i never posted my operation up because this way if I don't meet it no one will know :P

I'll have one of mine up soon, but i'm rather disappointed that both of you are leaving limit.

Never said I was leaving now did I ?

But after 4 months straight! I need a break from poker all together

I'm not leaving limit Jeff. I just took a few days off to have fun. I'm back playing quarters and .50/1.00 now. I am going to mix in 2/4 instead of 1/2..

I, however, am leaving limit.

Sucks to be anyone but me!

-'rilla

You never were in limit you post whore!!!

You never were in limit you post whore!!!

The whole lot of you are post whores.

{Sticky removed per new sticky policy}

Ooooooh Looooooonnieeeee.

Where is you, mang?

-'rilla