Renton comments

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Finally! *creams himself*

Do you have a link to your old one? I'd love to read through it because I'm hoping to follow in your footsteps. I did a search but couldn't find anything. Thanks and I'm looking forward to reading about your progress.

Renton, you are obviously the poster boy for smartly (keeping within the BR) FLYING up in stakes. Making $9k (or more by now) in about 2 1/2 months... phenomenal man, I hope to learn a lot from your continued adventure.

I'm a huge donk, so that's probably the reason for the confusion... but I was rather curious about the 22-hand you posted.. I realize that the board is scary... but a couple of things...

1. This guy has $81 to start the hand.. how did he get there? You didn't mention any reads on this guy that I could see...

2. So are you assuming he's sitting on 98s, or 87s? A8?... I understand the concern of him having that card, but I'm finding it difficult (other than the suited connector hands) to put him on an 8 here.

3. He pushes ~$45 into a pot of ~$85, so you are getting almost 3:1 on your call, right?

4. You mentioned he wouldn't push a flush into a double-paired board, but like you said you're set is nearly invisible... it looks like you are playing a big pair or over cards to most people... (with the c-bet and check behind on the turn, probably just over cards)

I'm guessin he had AQs, or AJs... but I play retard limits so I'd like to hear more about this....

Thanks!

Originally Posted by ponyboy

Do you have a link to your old one? I'd love to read through it because I'm hoping to follow in your footsteps. I did a search but couldn't find anything. Thanks and I'm looking forward to reading about your progress.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ghlight=renton
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ghlight=renton
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ghlight=renton
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ghlight=renton

that should catch you up

Originally Posted by kingnat

Renton, you are obviously the poster boy for smartly (keeping within the BR) FLYING up in stakes. Making $9k (or more by now) in about 2 1/2 months... phenomenal man, I hope to learn a lot from your continued adventure.

I'm a huge donk, so that's probably the reason for the confusion... but I was rather curious about the 22-hand you posted.. I realize that the board is scary... but a couple of things...

1. This guy has $81 to start the hand.. how did he get there? You didn't mention any reads on this guy that I could see...

2. So are you assuming he's sitting on 98s, or 87s? A8?... I understand the concern of him having that card, but I'm finding it difficult (other than the suited connector hands) to put him on an 8 here.

3. He pushes ~$45 into a pot of ~$85, so you are getting almost 3:1 on your call, right?

4. You mentioned he wouldn't push a flush into a double-paired board, but like you said you're set is nearly invisible... it looks like you are playing a big pair or over cards to most people... (with the c-bet and check behind on the turn, probably just over cards)

I'm guessin he had AQs, or AJs... but I play retard limits so I'd like to hear more about this....

Thanks!

he had just sat with like 90 or 100 dollars and he was a loose passive player. Whenever passive players get that uppity postflop they have top boat a lot. He probably puts me on an overpair, and if he beats an overpair he beats 22.

Calling that bet on the end would be like calling someones all in with 22 preflop and hoping you have his A2 dominated. Nope.

Again, stupid questions, but I'm just trying to learn...

Originally Posted by Renton

Whenever passive players get that uppity postflop they have top boat a lot.

Calling the flop, checking the turn, and pushing the river, counts as uppity? He seems pretty passive until after you show weakness on the turn.

Originally Posted by Renton

He probably puts me on an overpair, and if he beats an overpair he beats 22.

This just isn't true... I think he has the flush which bows down to your bottom boat, but yet still beats your over pair.

Thanks for the insight...

Dudes, I just updated my sweet blog.

Originally Posted by Renton

Dudes, I just updated my sweet blog.

Howzabout putting a linky in your sig. kthx.

Running bad sux Renton. Hang in there. You will prob lose much less than most ppl during this bad run. I don't think anybody worries too much bout you ... it'll turn around.

Oh and I'm no expert but I wouldn't worry too much bout the "flattening" of your br graph. You said it yourself a long time ago about 30-40k sequences of hands not being representative of larger-scale progressions.

If your solid forum input and most of your hh posted are at all representative of your overall play, you are def not a break-even player . Plus, seems like you are on a 6-max downswing which is typically more brutal than full ring (u know obv...).

Try not to get down. Go chop some wood or something. Putting a bad-beat on an inanimate object can only be a good thing.

Wow I didn't know you ran bad

Very insightful man, thanks for the posts, couple of quick questions...

***** Hand History for Game 4573101906 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, June 22, 21:23:40 ET 2006
Table Table 96045 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: Beoupe ( $534.29 )
Seat 5: themaniac11 ( $288.60 )
Seat 7: Beelzeboz0 ( $224.40 )
Seat 4: Pavel55 ( $295.56 )
Seat 10: FishEKat ( $284.05 )
Seat 9: FoosLoose1 ( $321.35 )
Seat 6: dogg16 ( $102.20 )
Seat 2: Autarchy ( $96.70 )
Seat 1: wrong_button ( $223.25 )
Seat 8: James_casley ( $36 )
Pavel55 posts small blind [$1].
themaniac11 posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Beelzeboz0 [ 2d 2s ]

dogg16 calls [$2].
Beelzeboz0 calls [$2].
James_casley calls [$2].
FishEKat folds.
wrong_button folds.
Autarchy folds.
Beoupe folds.
Pavel55 raises [$14].
themaniac11 folds.
dogg16 folds.
Beelzeboz0 calls [$13].
James_casley folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 9s, 9c ]

Pavel55 bets [$35].
Beelzeboz0 calls [$35].

** Dealing Turn ** [ 4c ]

Pavel55 checks.
Beelzeboz0 bets [$70].
Pavel55 calls [$70].

** Dealing River ** [ 8d ]

Pavel55 checks.
Beelzeboz0 is all-In.
Pavel55 folds.
Beelzeboz0 does not show cards.
Beelzeboz0 wins $347.40

This seems like an interesting line here. Is this simply putting the villain on overs or a draw (smelling weakness), or representing the flush... or what? I'd appreciate a little more info on this if you could offer some.

***** Hand History for Game 4572836696 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, June 22, 20:46:47 ET 2006
Table Table 95721 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: Spildo711 ( $471.06 )
Seat 7: Tran50 ( $86.35 )
Seat 10: King4484 ( $198 )
Seat 3: Beelzeboz0 ( $200 )
Seat 1: skylar28 ( $370.05 )
Seat 8: joe113111 ( $59.45 )
Seat 9: gmoney1156 ( $253.05 )
Seat 5: bburtts43 ( $240.50 )
Seat 4: bighapapapa ( $198.05 )
Seat 2: dreamcrushed ( $196 )
bburtts43 posts small blind [$1].
Spildo711 posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Beelzeboz0 [ 3d Ad ]

Tran50 folds.
joe113111 folds.
gmoney1156 folds.
King4484 folds.
skylar28 folds.
dreamcrushed raises [$4].
Beelzeboz0 calls [$4].
bighapapapa folds.
bburtts43 calls [$3].
Spildo711 calls [$2].

** Dealing Flop ** [ 9d, 5h, Td ]

bburtts43 checks.
Spildo711 checks.
dreamcrushed bets [$10].
Beelzeboz0 calls [$10].
bburtts43 folds.
Spildo711 folds.

** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]

dreamcrushed bets [$30].
Beelzeboz0 raises [$95].
dreamcrushed folds.
Beelzeboz0 does not show cards.
Beelzeboz0 wins $158

So this is quite different from the last hand in that you have 11 good outs. Just checking the line for my own interest... PF: very obvious call with Axs here.. to a weak raise w/ position. Flop: pick up our flush draw and call a $10 into $26 pot... Is the call here due to action behind you? (vs. a raise representing strength on our draw?)

On a substantial check-raise here from the blinds, are you done with the hand? What type of pot odds/implied odds are we looking for if the action gets hot on the flop?

Turn: What are you putting the opponent on here? (probably caught some pair or has small pkt pair?)... what hand are you representing? (any two pair or TP might have villain beat, eh?) Is this the time to get aggressive w/ the draw now that it's HU? (I always like to be aggressive w/ my nut draws... and this seems delayed, is due to the action behind or something else that I'm not seeing?)

Great stuff man, tks!

Hand 1

Villain is pretty tight, and known to make weak laydowns from time to time. I have like 2k hands logged with him.

I call the flop because I figure the chance is reasonable that my hand is good. When he checks/calls the turn I am almost certain that he has an overpair. The river is the perfect bluff card. Even idiots won't call with AA there. He was getting pretty compelling pot odds though, so it wasn't the least dangerous of bluffs.

Hand 2

I am not sure what villain had here. He was a 20/10 and seemed somewhat solid. If this read was accurate then the 4 dollar raise preflop was a pot sweetner bet for a drawing hand like JTs.

JT would fit the action after that. He bet small into a multiway pot for information. I just call. The board is drawy so he immediately puts me on a draw and bets more on the turn because he figures he's ahead and is protecting his hand. I stick in a raise because I have 12, probably 15 outs so I was about 30% to win. I figure fold equity + implied odds make this a good raise.

If he calls this raise and i hit, I win a stack. If he calls this raise and I miss, I fold the turn and preserve the majority of my stack, or maybe bluff all in if he checks one more time (but probably not).

As far as the delay goes I really liked how I did this. The "standard" play with a draw and a weak flop bet is to raise it and take a free card on the turn if necessary. Raise or checkraise flop, lead the turn. I think that if you invert it it looks more like a made hand than a draw. The line I took in this hand is how the majority of players play sets. So if you invert how you play sets and draws, with the way the average player plays sets and draws, you'll maximise EV on your bluffs and on your value raises.

I just wanted everyone to know that I own, and also to thank all of the FTR members that contributed to my rise to power.


thats all

Originally Posted by Renton

I just wanted everyone to know that I own, and also to thank all of the FTR members that contributed to my rise to power.


thats all

Very nice hands. I need to learn a lot from your post flop play (especially turn/river). AK and KQ have been killing me lately, great job getting AI with worse hands in those situations.

PS, college kids are starting to go back to school. As long as the senate doesnt screw it up, I think we will all have a good few months.

hey renton what limits / sites you been playing on mostly?? by the HH forum it seems you are all over the place.

are you still pretty much playing by your preflop/post I&II or have you learned a few extra tricks?

Originally Posted by TerryToma

hey renton what limits / sites you been playing on mostly?? by the HH forum it seems you are all over the place.

are you still pretty much playing by your preflop/post I&II or have you learned a few extra tricks?

I am playing primarily 400nl full ring on party (9-12 tables). I play 25nl full ring sometimes on my roommates acct, to help him learn the game. I occasionally blow off steam playing ultra lag on 100nl 6 max and below. On soft party friday nights I will play 600nl full ring sometimes.

Today I dove into 400nl 6 max and I think I might play 10 or 20k hands of that for a change of pace.

Good luck man, hope it all works out for you.

Good luck renton.

I think its a good idea for you to build your BR to 10k before trying out NL200 again. Thats actually the same plan I'm playing after. I want to have loads of buyins for NL200 and I want to plug more leaks while I'm still playing NL100. I've had trouble with NL200 every danm time I've tried to move up (3 times now), mostly due to bad beats and me tilting after those beats. Also, NL100 is ridiculously easy to beat

Originally Posted by Robert

I've had trouble with NL200 every danm time I've tried to move up (3 times now)

We should start a club. I think I've finally managed to make 200nl stick but I long for the days of crushing 100nl.

Originally Posted by Warpe

Originally Posted by Robert

I've had trouble with NL200 every danm time I've tried to move up (3 times now)

We should start a club. I think I've finally managed to make 200nl stick but I long for the days of crushing 100nl.

Me failing in succesfully moving up several times has resulted in a confidence issue in regards to beating NL200. I know that the level of play is still soft, but I dont have the confidence right now to beat it, so I'll wait to I have a ton of buyins (at least 10k) so I can comfortably loose a couple of buyins without tilting.

Psychologically, as the stakes go up it takes a while before losing 100+bb to a suckout isn't a big deal anymore, but now I just think of gabe losing $18K in one hand and laughing about it to put my bad beats in perspective.

bad beats destroy me so much because i know how small my edge is in these games, and how that one bad beat destroys like four hours worth of equity for me (even assuming I DON'T tilt).

by the way, those two lists i made in my blog entry aren't all encompassing.

You guys have seen me post and advise on hands. Now, I only generally posted hands that I feel like I played real bad, so they aren't an accurate account of how i play all the time.

That being said, I'd appreciate if you guys would come up with more entries into the list of things I'm doing wrong, and in the list of things I should start doing now that Ive realised that I have a problem.

Originally Posted by Renton

bad beats destroy me so much because i know how small my edge is in these games, and how that one bad beat destroys like four hours worth of equity for me (even assuming I DON'T tilt).

Or not so bad ones...

I'm seriously considering implementing a ratholing strategy - hit 200bb and leave the table.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $1/$2
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $335.30
CO: $42.45
Button: $222.95
Hero: $553.55
BB: $105.20

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with J T
UTG raises to $7, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Flop: K 8 2 ($16, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $13, Hero raises to $39, UTG raises all-in $328.3, Hero calls.

Turn: 3 ($672.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $672.6)


River: 3 ($672.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $672.6)


Results:
Final pot: $672.6
Hero showed Js Ts
UTG showed Kd As

renton, how many tables do you play? Often when I'm playing bad its due to me playing way to many tables and not having enough time and focus to make the correct decision. I often drop a table or two when I'm experiencing this. I 6-table 6-max FWIW

He plays about 20+ ( give or take, LOL) and normally kills.


It's strictly a confidence thing Renton, You'll work it out. Get to where you have the confidence and start another meteoric rise. You expected a downfall, but I don't think you expected the emotional tag that came along with it.

i usually play 8. It's obviously possible that I am deluded, but I honestly think that number of tables doesn't really affect me. I actually think theres a sweet spot # of tables where I play the best, which is coincidentally around 8.

If i play 10+, i do start to fuck up. By fuck up, I mean I play passively on the flop because when I miss and the flop is questionable to continuation bet, i'll lean more toward checking, because i don't have time to deal with it. Subtle stuff like that.

If I play less than 4 or 6, i start overthinking things and making thin high variance plays more.

That was a really good, honest post. Poker is hard. Good luck, hope it goes well and that you figure things out. Keep us updated.

I think the most important thing is to be honest with yourself and be able to improve your game when you run (and play) bad. A lot of players aren't honest with themselves when they run bad, they blame it all on variance and often they dont see that bad play and tilt is their main problem, not variance. They just grind and grind saying that they'll overcome the negative variance soon, and before they realize that it's not just variance, but also bad play and tilt they are close to busto.

good post. poker has changed since "the bill" passed.

i also agree that the lead/3bet sets on flop doesnt work anymore.

I'm at about 9ptBB/100 over my last 50k hands of 200NL(mostly playing 400NL). Maybe you should look beyond Fulltilt, Stars and Ultimatebet for soft games..there are still very soft games out there.

BTW nr of tables does matter unless you omly rely on HUD for reads. I think you would be wise to cut down to 4-6 tables and really think about what you are doing in every situation.

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

I'm at about 9ptBB/100 over my last 50k hands of 200NL(mostly playing 400NL). Maybe you should look beyond Fulltilt, Stars and Ultimatebet for soft games..there are still very soft games out there.

BTW nr of tables does matter unless you omly rely on HUD for reads. I think you would be wise to cut down to 4-6 tables and really think about what you are doing in every situation.

semi-hijack

where else do you play bill? tribeca and prima?

Originally Posted by Cocco_Bill

BTW nr of tables does matter unless you omly rely on HUD for reads. I think you would be wise to cut down to 4-6 tables and really think about what you are doing in every situation.

Flaws in my game are fundamental. I basically am too aggressive.

8 tabling, I have really no trouble gaining reads on players, honestly the only thing i use the hud for is VPIP. I take notes very religiously, and I make read based plays all the time.

Originally Posted by Renton

Flaws in my game are fundamental. I basically am too aggressive.

I'm really glad you're finally recognizing this. I've learned a lot about being aggressive from you but sometimes you scare me.

ive played 5k hands of 100nl in the last two days. Im running 3.5ptbb/100 and my vpip/pfr is 18.5/14.5.

I seem to be doing fairly well. I still am making a lot of mistakes though. Today a solid player pushed for 2x the pot on the river when I had Ah6h on a Th 3h 9h Tc Qh board, and I made a retarded call.

Originally Posted by Renton

ive played 5k hands of 100nl in the last two days. Im running 3.5ptbb/100 and my vpip/pfr is 18.5/14.5.

I seem to be doing fairly well. I still am making a lot of mistakes though. Today a solid player pushed for 2x the pot on the river when I had Ah6h on a Th 3h 9h Tc Qh board, and I made a retarded call.

lol u DONK

seriously u r pretty hard on yourself

Originally Posted by Genitruc

seriously u r pretty hard on yourself

IMO, that's the single most necessary personality trait to have in order to succeed at this game.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by Genitruc

seriously u r pretty hard on yourself

IMO, that's the single most necessary personality trait to have in order to succeed at this game.

agreed

but taking it to an excessive point can make you perma-down on yourself

every now and then, regardless of the activity you're pursuing, it's important to pat yourself on the back and say "shit. I've worked fkin hard at this and I ain't all that bad..."

obv the end of a huge break-even/downswing/existential crisis period is not ripe for "patting onself on the back"

but calling the river with basically the 2nd nuts in a 6 handed game isn't reason to beat the crap out of yourself imo.

You make a fair point but for a guy like Renton who has spent much of the past few months complaining about running bad on IRC, it's good to see him finally taking responsibility for his play. It takes a lot of talent to move up from .10-.25 to 1-2 and 2-4 NL as fast as he did but as far as I can tell from his posts (and I could be wrong) he stagnated there because he didn't think his mistakes enough. He'd be beating 5-10 NL by now if he had had a better attitude all along IMO.

That being said, it took a lot of guts to post what he did on his blog, and to put his ego aside and come up with an honest plan to fix his leaks and improve is very admirable. I think that before long, he's going to be back at 2-4 and beating it consistently. Being able to look at himself in the mirror like that is something that will make him successful for sure in the real world too.

PS: The call in this hand is quite bad in my opinion. It's almost standard for a "solid," uncreative player to shove there with a full house hoping to get paid off by the ace of hearts.

u r right bout the hand mcat didn't see board was 4-heart

I didn't realize Renton had been avoiding self-examination, but I'm not all that "close" to him like some other ppl on the forum. I guess I was just reacting to all the "I blow chunks at poker" stuff that I saw all of a sudden.

I've seen talented ppl get to this "I suck hard" point in their development quite a few times in various disciplines. Sometimes, they use it to progress and mature and sometimes they beat the shit out of themselves until they no longer feel like pursuing the discipline.

Renton seems like a genuine guy and a solid contributor to the Forum, I'm just hoping he beats himself up without kicking the crap out of himself to the point where he no longer wants to play poker...

but I'm prob just being needlessly paternalistic and shouldn't be worried about Renton, of all people.

im just going to beat 100nl for a couple of months, make a few g's and generally chill out.

Cool thing about 100nl is I can make all the fuckups that I make all the time, and still win because the opposition is making the same fuckups and then some.

Obviously, the goal of this is to get better though.

Good, that's a level I can understand. So I'll be able to watch youplay without saying WTF!!!. Good luck, you won't need it at $100NL, but good luck with the working it out.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by Genitruc

seriously u r pretty hard on yourself

IMO, that's the single most necessary personality trait to have in order to succeed at this game.

when im hard on myself i stress out and dont have fun, and whenever im stressing out i dont perform the best. yea its good to be hard on yourself after you tilt off have your BR or something, but just on everyday run-of-the-mill hands its not that productive

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by Genitruc

seriously u r pretty hard on yourself

IMO, that's the single most necessary personality trait to have in order to succeed at this game.

when im hard on myself i stress out and dont have fun, and whenever im stressing out i dont perform the best. yea its good to be hard on yourself after you tilt off have your BR or something, but just on everyday run-of-the-mill hands its not that productive

YEP

Originally Posted by gabe

when im hard on myself i stress out and dont have fun, and whenever im stressing out i dont perform the best. yea its good to be hard on yourself after you tilt off have your BR or something, but just on everyday run-of-the-mill hands its not that productive

I try to enjoy myself while I'm playing, but I'm talking about after I'm done. Every time I finish a long session I spend 20-30 minutes in PT looking over the big pots that I played (both won and lost) and seeing whether I could have done anything different. I'm very hard on myself during this time because I think the best way to get better is to learn from your mistakes.

Interesting that you found the FT deepstacked 6-max 109er to be relatively easy b/c Rizen recommended that tourney when he did the FTR chat session...

have you found any reason for your struggles at full-ring? Is it maybe because your edge is smaller (because the other players are getting better), thus increased variance?

It's hard to say you just had a 100k heater in Jan...

Congrats on your MTT cash. Just avoid the maddening donkament downswing and you're golden!