Anti-Capitalist Sentiment (with some morality)

[Renton]

I guess I'm slowly learning that my problem isn't capitalism, it's people.

Problems of human frailty are exacerbated by concentrating power. In capitalism, a selfish asshole does selfish things with his own property. In politics, the same selfish asshole does the same selfish things with everyone's property.

Renton talks about toothbrushes for 30c like that's a good thing. It's not. 30c toothbrushes mean someone isn't getting paid as much as they should, and it means that people consume more than they need to. I'm going on holiday, where's my toothbrush? Fuck it, I'll just buy a new one. Who cares if some Indian kid gets 5p an hour in a sweat shop.

How do you know that? Maybe its someone getting paid $20/hour throwing a lever to a massive toothbrush assembly machine that creates thousands of toothbrushes per hour. Even if it is due to cheap labor like you say, it's almost certainly the case that those laborers are better off than if Colgate corporation didn't exist. Poor countries are responding to globalization very positively, with decreased infant mortality, increased life expectancy, and booming population growth. People from subsistence farming communities who were previously living a miserable existence in food and health insecurity are now much more gainfully employed, better-fed, and more healthy. Do they enjoy their jobs? Relative to their previous job, which was living in a gutter, probably so. Would they like a better job? Of course. That's the case for about 99% of the world. All capitalism does is to give people the tools to incrementally improve their own lives.

[a500lbgorilla]

Problems of human frailty are exacerbated by concentrating power. In capitalism, a selfish asshole does selfish things with his own property. In politics, the same selfish asshole does the same selfish things with everyone's property.

So how will the free market prevent politics from returning?

edit As a neophyte philosopher of Economics, it also seems to me that capitalism has a lot of mechanisms for the concentration of wealth. And when you concentrate wealth, you concentrate power and when you concentrate power, you approach something like politics.

[Renton]

So how will the free market prevent politics from returning?

All we need is a politics that is friendly toward capitalism. All problems of racism and corruption aside, the U.S. from 1800-1900 and to a lesser extent 1900-1960 embodied this. Compared with most of the developed world, the U.S. is still one of the most capitalism-friendly countries, and that's probably the only thing about the U.S. I have any pride for when I talk with people abroad.

edit As a neophyte philosopher of Economics, it also seems to me that capitalism has a lot of mechanisms for the concentration of wealth. And when you concentrate wealth, you concentrate power and when you concentrate power, you approach something like politics.

Again, I don't think this particularly matters as long as the will of the people is pro-capitalist. Corporate interests are able to lobby politicians because the politicians have the power to sling billions of dollars around. They have that power because the U.S. populace believes that having a 6 trillion dollar state budget is alright by them. If people knew how much damage this massive misallocation of resources was causing, they would vote to limit state power and lobbying wouldn't nearly be as profitable.

[a500lbgorilla]

Again, I don't think this particularly matters as long as the will of the people is pro-capitalist. Corporate interests are able to lobby politicians because the politicians have the power to sling billions of dollars around. They have that power because the U.S. populace believes that having a 6 trillion dollar state budget is alright by them.

Yeah, people are stupid.

If people knew how much damage this massive misallocation of resources was causing, they would vote to limit state power and lobbying wouldn't nearly be as profitable.

But people are stupid, though.

PS and you and I are absolutely included in 'people' here.

[wufwugy]

So how will the free market prevent politics from returning?

By providing. Take the internet for example. It provides, people don't want the government involved to nearly the extent that we did for previous communication revolutions like radio and TV.

The more market oriented things are, the more people like markets. The more self-reliant people are, the more they dislike government dependence. Just look at how the people who run their own businesses have some serious hatred for government (like those in trades), while those who have very little responsibility love government (like students).

edit As a neophyte philosopher of Economics, it also seems to me that capitalism has a lot of mechanisms for the concentration of wealth. And when you concentrate wealth, you concentrate power and when you concentrate power, you approach something like politics.

Like what?

[a500lbgorilla]

By providing. Take the internet for example. It provides, people don't want the government involved to nearly the extent that we did for previous communication revolutions like radio and TV.

The more market oriented things are, the more people like markets. The more self-reliant people are, the more they dislike government dependence. Just look at how the people who run their own businesses have some serious hatred for government (like those in trades), while those who have very little responsibility love government (like students).



Like what?

Pretty surprised you can't answer the second question. Capitalism has a mechanism for wealth-accrual. The most successful become the wealthiest. Wealth means the ability to command more work and resources which gives you an edge for controlling more wealth. Wealth can breed more wealth. At some point, some where, some one will wield so much wealth, they could tip over from using wealth to participate in the market place to using wealth to control the lives of people most dependent upon him. He may also use his wealth to guard his ability to generate wealth which could approach something like war.

Your first point is meaningless. People who have their money taken don't like having their money taken - so what?

edit and its doubly meaningless because of your internet point, where people are self-reliant through piracy and human nature is clearly sitll alive and well as seen by all the tribalism and hatred that spreads like wildfire throiughout it.

[wufwugy]

Pretty surprised you can't answer the second question. Capitalism has a mechanism for wealth-accrual. The most successful become the wealthiest. Wealth means the ability to command more work and resources which gives you an edge for controlling more wealth. Wealth can breed more wealth. At some point, some where, some one will wield so much wealth, they could tip over from using wealth to participate in the market place to using wealth to control the lives of people most dependent upon him. He may also use his wealth to guard his ability to generate wealth which could approach something like war.

I asked you because I can't have a dialogue with myself.

It is not known that your thesis is accurate. One known reason why is that disadvantage of incumbency is a very real phenomenon in a free market. I've discussed this in the past with regards to Walmart and Amazon or Microsoft and Google, but it exists a million different ways. The TLDR is that incumbents have a disincentive to innovate outside of their business models. This naturally provides competitive space for disruptive innovations from others. This is why back when Amazon began rapidly subverting the Walmart business model, Walmart was powerless to stop it. Walmart's bread and butter is brick and mortar retail, and if it was to compete as directly with Amazon in online retail as it could, it would undermine its own bread and butter.

So, this is but one example of how the positive feedback loop you envision with regards to wealth accrual is struck by negative feedback.

Or we could just look at the wealth data itself. I forget the exact numbers but it's something like only 3% of the wealthiest family from a hundred years ago are still wealthy. The turnover and subversion of wealth in markets is high. Even the "unstoppable" juggernaut called Microsoft from less than a decade ago became a frantic underdog within just a couple years time. Out of nowhere, its vast market share plummeted from the uprising of unpredicted competitors.

Why governments will always exist:

In Anarchy, violence enjoys primacy. Anyone with an edge in violence will reap benefits in every other corner of life. The marketplace can not defeat Anarchy's legacy (States) nor can it defeat the incentive to be the most violent.

What happens when the incentive to not initiate force is greater than the incentive to do so? Meaning, what happens when the initiation of violence is less productive -- and thus less capable of generating wealth -- than the utility of security from the initiation of violence?

Why States won't implement a sustained free market:

States must maintain internal stability to maintain its ability to wage war. The State has an incentive to reallocate its resources to maintain internal stability. A free market will mean reduced services to the least privileged of society which will lead to increased social unrest. A free market will also present members of the same tribe with stark examples of the haves-vrs-the-have-nots which will breed contempt and more social unrest. The State, therefore, has an incentive to be seen as providing a safety net and social securities. (Look at histories best examples of free markets - the US, Sinagpore, Hong Kong, a free market is societies sprint, not its marathon.)

Two things:

(1) A free market increases services. I'm not sure why you're saying otherwise. Also the perception of haves and have nots is built by the government policies that create such divergence and low social mobility in the first place.

(2) I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but if you're saying that free market societies tend towards state authoritarianism because of the perceptions people get from results of how economies naturally function, I disagree. The US welfare state is, well, an accident. A technical thing happened and nobody knew the consequences it would cause with things like reliance on the government down the road. That technical thing is money monopoly i.e. the Federal Reserve.

The Federal Reserve then created the Great Depression (Yes, created. The Fed itself admitted back in the 00's that it did this). But because nobody (the public and most economists too) at the time did not realize that the cause of their disastrous economy was a money monopoly misbehaving, everybody blamed capitalists. This ushered in support for welfare and government authority over all things. As usual, markets are the solution.

[a500lbgorilla]

What happens when the incentive to not initiate force is greater than the incentive to do so? Meaning, what happens when the initiation of violence is less productive -- and thus less capable of generating wealth -- than the utility of security from the initiation of violence?

Nothing happens because it's impossible. I remember some dude said that Europe would never go to war because they were all making too much money - smash cut - WW1 - WW2.

Two things:

(1) A free market increases services. I'm not sure why you're saying otherwise. Also the perception of haves and have nots is built by the government policies that create such divergence and low social mobility in the first place.

(2) I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but if you're saying that free market societies tend towards state authoritarianism because of the perceptions people get from results of how economies naturally function, I disagree. The US welfare state is, well, an accident. A technical thing happened and nobody knew the consequences it would cause with things like reliance on the government down the road. That technical thing is money monopoly i.e. the Federal Reserve.

No, you're just so deep in one single avenue of human philosophical study that you can't see the wood for the trees - is my point.

[a500lbgorilla]

The US welfare state is, well, an accident.

An accident that happens every time. See US, Hong Kong, Singapore.