Bigred's Video Game Thread

[Savy]

Life is gambling, just because you can say the word gambling and bring up negative connotations involved with that word doesn't mean it wouldn't be stupid to classify something like loot boxes as gambling because the legislation for those things was created without these things in mind.

If you don't like it don't buy the game & don't use microtransactions. Go even further & support developers who aren't using them.

[Jack Sawyer]

DLCs used to be accepted. Then they started to cut out content to offer it as DLC. Started shipping games out incomplete, full price, and then offer the rest as DLC.

Microtransactions were accepted, then they started hampering progression in full priced games down to a crawl unless you pay up to progress faster. NBA 2K franchise is notorious for this. The game would cost $60, and yet you could buyt $100 in virtual currency to buy shit like green shoes and bandannas.

Then came the now ubiquitous lootboxes. In which now you have to spend real money for a chance in getting what you really want. This, of course, accompanied by all sorts of psychological manipulation and slot machine tactics and creations of Skinner's environments. You spend the money, but you don't actually get what you want right away; you have to keep spending money for more tries at getting what you want. In the meantime, what other players have keeps getting shoved in your face more and more prominently. All the while making it more difficult to earn said credits to being able to afford the lootboxes, which if you don't have you will keep having your ass handed to you over and over again, forcing you to pay up to compete. All of this happening in a full price game THAT YOU HAVE ALREADY BOUGHT (LOL at playing for $0).

The rhetoric ithat these AAA publishers will offer you is that it isn't gambling. My stance is that it fucking IS gambling. And if it IS gambling, then how the fuck can it be allowed to be advertised to children? To be in the hands of and marketed to fucking kids?

This is the saddest and most pathetic of all of your arguments dude. I don't believe for a fucking second that you're really moved at all by any concern regarding children. I think it's just a convenient argument that you're co-opting to help keep your games cheap.

facepalm.gif

[Jack Sawyer]

Life is gambling, just because you can say the word gambling and bring up negative connotations involved with that word doesn't mean it wouldn't be stupid to classify something like loot boxes as gambling because the legislation for those things was created without these things in mind.

Time to update the legislation. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably not a giraffe; it's a fucking duck.

If you don't like it don't buy the game & don't use microtransactions. Go even further & support developers who aren't using them.

I do, and also at least 680,000 people agree with me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ListOfComments/wiki/downvoted

[Savy]

Time to update the legislation. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably not a giraffe; it's a fucking duck.




I do, and also at least 680,000 people agree with me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ListOfComments/wiki/downvoted

That is essentially wimpy losers having a whinge about a game they will pretty much all buy & then spend loads of money on in game purchases. So not what I said at all.

You also didn't get my point about changes in legislation, it would be weakening it to include stuff like this because it isn't gambling in the traditional degen image ruining families, lives etc that it was formed from.

[BananaStand]

You spend the money, but you don't actually get what you want right away; you have to keep spending money for more tries at getting what you want.

Where is all this outrage when they do the same thing with...
...baseball cards
...happy meal toys
...carnival games
...gumball machines
...cereal box prizes
...skee ball
...anything collectible
...virtually every iphone and android video game ever created

In the meantime, what other players have keeps getting shoved in your face more and more prominently

This reminds me of a Mitch Hedberg line that kinda goes like this...."I saw an ad for a casino and they showed a guy winning money. That's false advertising cause that's what happens the least! It's like if I advertised a hamburger by showing a guy choking!"

It's a funny gripe but if you're truly miffed because a business uses a positive spin to advertise its products....then I might recommend some anger management.

Furthermore, if you're just jealous of what other people have, then again...therapy might be the answer.

[Jack Sawyer]

Where is all this outrage when they do the same thing with...
...baseball cards
...happy meal toys
...carnival games
...gumball machines
...cereal box prizes
...skee ball
...anything collectible

On top of this, loot systems are designed to maximise use through carefully crafted audio and visual design. In interviews with my colleague Cecilia D'Anastasio earlier this year, the designers from games like Overwatch and Duelyst explain how their crates are designed to be a pleasurable experience.


"When you start opening a loot box, we want to build anticipation," an Overwatch developer said. "We do this in a lot of ways -- animations, camera work, spinning plates, and sounds. We even build a little anticipation with the glow that emits from a loot box's cracks before you open it."


Moment for moment, loot boxes are engineered to capture attention with a mixture of spectacle and psychological trickery not unlike what you might find at a slot machine.

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/10/lo...to-exploit-us/


Explain to me how this resembles opening a happy meal, a baseball card or a cracker jack. Also, please do tell me if they kempt chargning you every time you openend the same happy meal, baseball card pack or cracker jack box. Because that's what they do nowadays. Play NBA Live 2018 and you will know what I'm talking about.


If you can't understand or don't want to understand that THESE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS, I can only tell you to enjoy your pure bliss.

...virtually every iphone and android video game ever created

DO you recall PAYING MONEY UPFRONT for any of these? Did you pay to download Pokemon Go?


Now, AAA publishers want to charge you upfront AND charge you the micro's AND charge you for lootboxes AND hamper your progression as well.

This reminds me of a Mitch Hedberg line that kinda goes like this...."I saw an ad for a casino and they showed a guy winning money. That's false advertising cause that's what happens the least! It's like if I advertised a hamburger by showing a guy choking!"


It's a funny gripe but if you're truly miffed because a business uses a positive spin to advertise its products....then I might recommend some anger management.


Furthermore, if you're just jealous of what other people have, then again...therapy might be the answer.

LOL, you are truly fucking trollin' or you are really the densest human being in the world




Hahahahahaha




Dude, Activision patented this. A fucking patent. On exactly this that you are calling me "jealous" and "needing therapy" for being "truly miffed because a business uses a positive spin to advertise its products". They went to the USPTO with their "positive spin".


https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/...h-matchmaking/


Now, when you die in EA's Battlefront 2, you get shown exactly which cards were used to kill you with.


It would be the LOL if Activision sued EA for the right to be the scumbaggiest company


Now that's a positive spin

[BananaStand]

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/10/lo...to-exploit-us/

You're presenting this as if it's outrageous. It's not. Attractive product placement has been a thing for a LOOOOOOONG time.

Remember the ninja turtles movie, when they had pizza delivered to their sewer lair? The delivery guy had on a ridiculous red and blue uniform plastered with Domino's pizza logos. When the turtles opened the pizza box, the lid moved right into the camera with the "Domino's" logo filling up 3/4 of the frame.

All of that imagery and camera work was done on purpose, paid for by Domino's, with the intent of making you want to buy their pizza.

Advertising is not a crime. Just because your video games now have commercials in them is not a good enough reason to demand oppressive nanny-government intervention.

Explain to me how this resembles opening a happy meal, a baseball card or a cracker jack.

ummm, explain to me how it doesn't? Explain to me how it's different than a kid walking through the grocery store, seeing a cereal box that says "one of four badass fuckin ninja figures inside!", and then saying "mom...buy me that box!" And if the mom buys the box, it's possible that they will be in the store the following week and the kid will say "Buy me that box...I wanna get a red badass fuckin ninja this time". And if the kid is disappointed when he gets another blue ninja....guess what happens the next trip to the grocery store?

Also, please do tell me if they kempt chargning you every time you openend the same happy meal, baseball card pack or cracker jack box. Because that's what they do nowadays. Play NBA Live 2018 and you will know what I'm talking about.

It was my understanding that the loot-box problem is different. You buy the box, hope you get what you want, but if you don't, you buy another box. Do you remember when happy meals had beanie babies in them for a while? People would go, buy a happy meal, look inside, and if they didn't get the beanie baby they wanted, the got back in line and bought another happy meal.

If you can't understand or don't want to understand that THESE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS, I can only tell you to enjoy your pure bliss

.
They aren't really that different. Furthermore you should know that this has been happening in the video game industry for-fucking-ever. There was a time when people played video games, but didn't have the internet. So how the hell did people learn that Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, B, A, start would result in beginning the game with 30 lives instead of 3? If you wanted that enhanced experience, you needed to subscribe to Nintendo Fun Club News (which later became Nintendo Power Magazine).

Stuck at a difficult part in a game? You can call our Game-Master help line for some insane per-minute charge. No credit card needed, we'll bill your phone line. But you're on the honor system kids when it comes to getting mom and dad's permission [lol]

And it just kept going from there. Want a blue controller instead of the standard gray? Pay us another 29.99. Then they stopped including second controllers with consoles. Want to play with a friend....another $29.99. Before HDMI cables there were those Red/Blue/Green HD inputs. No console ever shipped with the correct wires for that though. You got standard A/V cables. Want HD gaming?....another $29.99!! Or even if you didn't, alot of TV's back then only had the simple RF input, which required a different adapter.....for $29.99.

Online subscription based games have been around since the 90's. Wanna play everquest...ok the game is $70 and it doesn't do shit...AT ALL...unless you sign up to pay another $13 bucks a month. Don't like that...well then you just pissed away seventy bucks for a plastic disc ass hole. Enjoy your coaster.

DO you recall PAYING MONEY UPFRONT for any of these? Did you pay to download Pokemon Go?

The point is regarding in-game purchases. The upfront money is kind of irrelevant. And some games do cost money upfront.

Now, AAA publishers want to charge you upfront AND charge you the micro's AND charge you for lootboxes AND hamper your progression as well.

Dude...it's THEIR product. They can structure and sell it however they want. The only exception is if their practices were really predatory and deceptive. And they aren't, at least not compared to anything else marketed to kids these days. So if you find that the game isn't worth the frustration....then don't fucking play it!!

Dude, Activision patented this. A fucking patent. On exactly this that you are calling me "jealous" and "needing therapy" for being "truly miffed because a business uses a positive spin to advertise its products". They went to the USPTO with their "positive spin".

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/...h-matchmaking/

You know google does the exact same thing when it shows you ads based on your browsing history. Advertising to a target market is not a crime.

Now, when you die in EA's Battlefront 2, you get shown exactly which cards were used to kill you with.

Great, if you like that feature, then voice your opinion with your wallet. Buy games with that feature, and don't buy games without it.

[oskar]

People are invested in their franchise, if it's Football Manager, Battlefield, CS or whatever. It's easy to say "don't buy it then" from an outsider perspective, but if you really like a franchise, you'll probably still buy the next iteration.
Here's why the BF outrage is justified: They sell you a full priced game with a mobile game F2P scheme. In addition to locking away half the content behind a season pass AND being a yearly franchise.
Actual day-1 game mechanics and characters are locked behind a painfully slow grind and you have the option to buy faster progress with real money. This is something I can begrudgingly accept with F2P games because they somehow have to make money, but a full priced release with a full priced season pass in a yearly frenchise? This is truly unprecedented. In Rainbow Six Siege they did a similar thing, but the way they did is was to release a $15 version of the game that had painfully slow unlock progress and you could buy progress accelerators or individual characters once you realized your mistake, or you could just buy the full priced game and unlock pretty much everything within a month. It's very personal how much of this BS you are willing to take, but Battlefront2 got all of it and to no surprise to anyone, people are not happy.
On the downside: They will backtrack and after a huge amount of negative press there will be a truckload of "oh well, ok then" press and I can't imagine this game doing poorly. No Man's Sky made millions and that game is universally hated. Marketing is everything.

[Savy]

People are invested in their franchise, if it's Football Manager, Battlefield, CS or whatever. It's easy to say "don't buy it then" from an outsider perspective, but if you really like a franchise, you'll probably still buy the next iteration.
Here's why the BF outrage is justified: They sell you a full priced game with a mobile game F2P scheme. In addition to locking away half the content behind a season pass AND being a yearly franchise.
Actual day-1 game mechanics and characters are locked behind a painfully slow grind and you have the option to buy faster progress with real money. This is something I can begrudgingly accept with F2P games because they somehow have to make money, but a full priced release with a full priced season pass in a yearly frenchise? This is truly unprecedented. In Rainbow Six Siege they did a similar thing, but the way they did is was to release a $15 version of the game that had painfully slow unlock progress and you could buy progress accelerators or individual characters once you realized your mistake, or you could just buy the full priced game and unlock pretty much everything within a month. It's very personal how much of this BS you are willing to take, but Battlefront2 got all of it and to no surprise to anyone, people are not happy.
On the downside: They will backtrack and after a huge amount of negative press there will be a truckload of "oh well, ok then" press and I can't imagine this game doing poorly. No Man's Sky made millions and that game is universally hated. Marketing is everything.

If people don't do that then it's their fault, not anyone elses. If a company takes the piss they lose customer loyalty & it's a bad long term decision, this probably won't be.

If making a decision makes you more money as a business why should you not be allowed to do that? F2P is still in very early stages so if developers are making poor decisions to exploit this then they will be damaged as a result.

[BananaStand]

People are invested in their franchise, if it's Football Manager, Battlefield, CS or whatever. It's easy to say "don't buy it then" from an outsider perspective, but if you really like a franchise, you'll probably still buy the next iteration.

No...you're not 'invested'. Just because you think Captain Picard is cool, doesn't mean you have to buy every Star Trek thingy that ever comes out. If it's something you will enjoy and it's affordable for you, then buy it and have a blast. If you're going to be miserable and frustrated over the number of transactions, or if you simply can't afford to have an enjoyable experience, then....DON'T BUY THE FUCKING GAME.

I was once the biggest fan of Final Fantasy that ever walked the earth. I friggen loved console RPG's in the 90's and early 00's. But online games were not my taste. And I wasn't high on the idea of paying for a monthly subscription. So Final Fantasy 11 didn't make my library.

I don't feel like a forfeited any "investment"

Here's why the BF outrage is justified: They sell you a full priced game with a mobile game F2P scheme. In addition to locking away half the content behind a season pass AND being a yearly franchise

.
So I was playing poker at a large casino on a busy saturday night. Some degenerate was at the table complaining that he really wanted to play blackjack, but every table in the house had a $25 minimum bet. "They really ought to have $15 tables so more people can play" he said. Every table in the house was packed. The house was doing fine. Why should they have to surrender at least $10/bet just so this ass-hole can join in? What do they owe him?

Same thing applies here. If BF is too expensive for you...DON'T PLAY IT. If it's not too expensive for you, and you're willing to pay, then you have just *justified* the price!!! So you forfeit any right to complain!

It's very personal how much of this BS you are willing to take, but Battlefront2 got all of it and to no surprise to anyone, people are not happy.

If people are unhappy with the game, then the game won't sell very well. And maybe the game-makers will learn their lesson. But if the game does sell well, then obviously people weren't unhappy enough to complain with their pocketbooks.

[Jack Sawyer]

No...you're not 'invested'. Just because you think Captain Picard is cool, doesn't mean you have to buy every Star Trek thingy that ever comes out. If it's something you will enjoy and it's affordable for you, then buy it and have a blast. If you're going to be miserable and frustrated over the number of transactions, or if you simply can't afford to have an enjoyable experience, then....DON'T BUY THE FUCKING GAME.

All EA games are going this route. Even NFS is now a lootbox infested grindfest. As long as no one complains, why should they change? Mobile pay structures in full price AAA games is where the AAA publishers want things to go.

So I was playing poker at a large casino on a busy saturday night. Some degenerate was at the table complaining that he really wanted to play blackjack, but every table in the house had a $25 minimum bet. "They really ought to have $15 tables so more people can play" he said. Every table in the house was packed. The house was doing fine. Why should they have to surrender at least $10/bet just so this ass-hole can join in? What do they owe him?

Same thing applies here. If BF is too expensive for you...DON'T PLAY IT. If it's not too expensive for you, and you're willing to pay, then you have just *justified* the price!!! So you forfeit any right to complain!

Strawmanning once again Banana.

If people are unhappy with the game, then the game won't sell very well. And maybe the game-makers will learn their lesson. But if the game does sell well, then obviously people weren't unhappy enough to complain with their pocketbooks.

It will always sell well Banana. It's star wars, for crying out loud. This is exactly what EA is banking on, which is why they loaded this game up with every despicable tactic they could think of.

If you would have actually read this post rather than strawmanning yourself ad nauseam you'd get a semblance of some sense as to what the actual problem is

https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...53#post2280853

[BananaStand]

If you would have actually read this post rather than strawmanning yourself ad nauseam you'd get a semblance of some sense as to what the actual problem is

https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...53#post2280853

I don't think you know what "strawman" means.

But anyway, the "actual problem" is your own internal struggle about market forces dictating changes in how your pet-product is delivered.

People said this same shit when the "greedy" record companies shut down Napster.

You basically want your investment in these games to be capped at whatever the off-the-shelf MSRP is. You like that, cause its been that way for a long time, and change intimidates you. You are clutching to this white-knight sense of fairness that no one cares about except you. Like...you feel that a persons ability to compete in these games should be driven by their time invested and gaming talent. Now someone with more money than you can buy a winning character and do everything you can do, in a tenth of the time.

I get why that might upset you, but suck it up cupcake.

Sometimes businesses make accommodations for higher-profile, higher-frequency, or higher-paying customers. Just because you have a reservation doesn't mean that some high-roller can't drop the Maitre D a c-note and steal your table.

That's life

[oskar]

I don't care about any of the games this is currently happening with, but I'm trying to imagine what I'd do if this was in my thing. If they released WC4 or SC3 and it had the same BS... I'd still probably buy the game. I'd have a really high tolerance for BS because I'm invested in those franchises.
I'll argue this like a dirty socialist: I don't think this is right even if it's making them more money than just releasing a complete game. A Battlefront game is money in the bank. It's impossible not to be profitable on the IP alone. Be a bit less of a greedy pig and just make a decent game! Other people can do it! Bethesda is doing it. Ninja Theory is doing it. Valve and Blizzard can occasionally do it. Why can't Gearbox and Activision do it?

[Jack Sawyer]

If people don't do that then it's their fault, not anyone elses. If a company takes the piss they lose customer loyalty & it's a bad long term decision, this probably won't be.


If making a decision makes you more money as a business why should you not be allowed to do that? F2P is still in very early stages so if developers are making poor decisions to exploit this then they will be damaged as a result.

You can make all the money in the world you want without having to be a scumbag. If you have to be a scumbag to make money then you can go rightly fuck yourself.


These companies prey on the fact that most people still have no idea that this shit is going on.

A Battlefront game is money in the bank. It's impossible not to be profitable on the IP alone. Be a bit less of a greedy pig and just make a decent game! Other people can do it! Bethesda is doing it. Ninja Theory is doing it. Valve and Blizzard can occasionally do it. Why can't Gearbox and Activision do it?

This. And ninja theory proves why the "OMG GAMES ARE SO EXPENSIVE TO MAKE NOWADAYS" rhetoric is bullshit

[oskar]

The really sad part about this is that we're talking about Battlefront when this is pretty much the best time for games in the history of games. This year we've had Hellblade, Wolfenstein: New Order, Resident Evil 7, Cuphead, Owlboy, Prey, Vanquish and Bayonetta got a remastered PC release... Fortnite, Battlegrounds, Starcraft2 is F2P have I mentioned this yet? XCom War of the Chosen, Darkest Dungeon, Duck Game.

There's no way I could possibly play even a quarter of the games that came out this year that I want to play.

[Luco]

The really sad part about this is that we're talking about Battlefront when this is pretty much the best time for games in the history of games. This year we've had Hellblade, Wolfenstein: New Order, Resident Evil 7, Cuphead, Owlboy, Prey, Vanquish and Bayonetta got a remastered PC release... Fortnite, Battlegrounds, Starcraft2 is F2P have I mentioned this yet? XCom War of the Chosen, Darkest Dungeon, Duck Game.

There's no way I could possibly play even a quarter of the games that came out this year that I want to play.

This year we've also had Horizon Zero Dawn, Zelda breath of the wild, Super Mario oddysey, Destiny 2, South Park The Fractured Butthole...

Truly an epic year for gaming

[Jack Sawyer]

The Belgians started to investigate after public outcry. The Dutch started to investigate. EA's response? Disable all in-game purchases. They got scared. But do not fall for this; it's not over

There's no way I could possibly play even a quarter of the games that came out this year that I want to play.

Indeed man.

[Luco]

Regarding Battlefront:

I don't care that new players don't have the same loadouts & options as more seasoned players. If a game is enjoyable you will play it and unlock things and you will eventually level the playing field. This is fine and it works as long as the starter weapons are 'good enough', the disadvantage relatively small, and the progression not too onerous.

I also don't mind loot boxes, as long as the items contained within them are purely cosmetic. Overwatch and Rocket League have this system - you can make your character / weapon / car look super cool, but no amount of money spent will give you any competitive advantage.

With Overwatch, items purchased through loot boxes cannot be traded. Yes, it's a money pit. But you don't have to spend anything if you don't want to and most players don't buy any, as you get regular loot box unlocks simply by playing the game. In this regard, they're completely harmless and an example of microtransactions done right.

With Rocket League, items can be traded. This introduces the concept of 'profit trading' and just like CSGO a large trading community has evolved from this. But in both cases, the base game is very cheap (under $20) and all items are purely cosmetic. Interestingly it also means that if you don't want to gamble you don't have to - you can simply buy what you want from a market seller. Personally I have opened loot boxes and I have bought specific items through the trading community, depending on whether I fancied a gamble or not. It helps a bunch that Psyonix are a great developer who listen to their fans and are constantly adding new content to Rocket League, so I'm happy to support them.

The only thing I wish was regulated is I would love to see the loot box odds disclosed, very clearly, at the purchase point.

I think where EA really dropped the ball was in making it exceptionally difficult to level the playing field through progression. Paying $80 for a star wars game and then having to play 80-100 hours to unlock Luke & vader is ridiculous in itself, then another 200 hours or more to get all the stat boosting options on top is too much. But then giving people the option to bypass all that grind for an additional fee? It's easy to see why people are outraged, it's basically pay to win in an $80, AAA game.

[Jack Sawyer]

This is the modus operandi

companies are pretty smart to integrate this stuff into their franchises that are already popular.

If the game flops they can just blame it on the game, or lack of interest in the game by the public

And if the game does well, which it's bound to do as it's a popular franchise: They can say that including microtransactions, lootboxes, gambling devices, etc... had no impact on game sales.Shadow of War is bound to do well, because it's a part of an enormous franchise. Doesn't mean that people don't like the lootboxes and real life currency in the game.

[BananaStand]

This is the modus operandi

And if the game does well, which it's bound to do as it's a popular franchise: They can say that including microtransactions, lootboxes, gambling devices, etc... had no impact on game sales.Shadow of War is bound to do well, because it's a part of an enormous franchise. Doesn't mean that people don't like the lootboxes and real life currency in the game

Final Fantasy X - 14 Million copies sold
Final Fantasy XI - 2 Million copies sold
Final Fantasy XII - 12 Million copies sold

One of those games charges a subscription fee. Can you guess which one?

[Luco]

[BananaStand]

You guys are probably all young enough that most of your saved game files are on hard-drives now. You probably don't remember memory cards. But if you do, you probably don't remember a time BEFORE memory cards.

Yeah, once upon a time, you could just save your game. That's it.

Then in the late 90's they changed things. Now you had a choice. If you bought a game you could choose to A) Play the beginning of it over and over and over and over and over again. or B) Spend another $15 on a memory card so you can save your progress.

[Luco]

You guys are probably all young enough that most of your saved game files are on hard-drives now. You probably don't remember memory cards. But if you do, you probably don't remember a time BEFORE memory cards.

Yeah, once upon a time, you could just save your game. That's it.

Actually my first console was an atari 2600 and saving your game was unheard of. Your game ended when you turned it off.

[BananaStand]

Actually my first console was an atari 2600 and saving your game was unheard of. Your game ended when you turned it off.

LOL, in 2017 if you paid $60 for a game that you could beat in under 90 minutes, there would be an uproar.

Maybe the government should pass laws mandating the number of quality gameplay hours per dollar a game publisher has to provide.

[Luco]

LOL, in 2017 if you paid $60 for a game that you could beat in under 90 minutes, there would be an uproar.

Maybe the government should pass laws mandating the number of quality gameplay hours per dollar a game publisher has to provide.

Ok now I'm confused.

Bananastand: You kids don't remember older consoles
Me: actually yes I do
Bananastand: Lol the government should regulate video game quality
Me: Ok now I'm confused.

[BananaStand]

Bananastand: Lol the government should regulate video game quality
Me: Ok now I'm confused.

Maybe I should have used hashtag-sarcasm on that last line. I definitely don't see any reason the gov't should be meddling in video games.

My only point was that the industry has been bilking gamers for a long time. It only seems to be a problem now because the whiners have a youtube channel they can use to promote their bitching and complaining.

My comment was somewhat hyperbolic, sorry for the confusion. My point is that once upon a time there was a lot of frustrating shit about video games that cost money. Alot of that went away as the market evolved. Sometimes it took a while for that stuff to go away. Sometimes it came back in various incarnations. And what's going on today seems absolutely no different.

We didn't need the government meddling then, so why the hell do we need it now?

[BananaStand]

Extra hardware, HD wires, magazine subscriptions, 900-numbers, memory cards......these were all revenue streams that gaming companies used to have, but don't anymore.

How do you propose they make up the difference?

Should games just cost $150/each now and everything in them be totally free? Is that really what you want?

What exactly would you like to have happen here anyway? Are you really calling for government intervention over what can and can't be in a video game? Cause that is a real slippery fucking slope dude. Eventually there could come a time when games aren't allowed to have guns, show violence, or contain realistic blood, cuz it's all being regulated by your parent-gov't for the 'public good'.

[Jack Sawyer]

You're presenting this as if it's outrageous. It's not. Attractive product placement has been a thing for a LOOOOOOONG time.

Remember the ninja turtles movie, when they had pizza delivered to their sewer lair? The delivery guy had on a ridiculous red and blue uniform plastered with Domino's pizza logos. When the turtles opened the pizza bog, the lid moved right into the camera with the "Domino's" logo filling up 3/4 of the frame.

All of that imagery and camera work was done on purpose, paid for by Domino's, with the intent of making you want to buy their pizza.

Advertising is not a crime. Just because your video games now have commercials in them is not a good enough reason to demand oppressive nanny-government intervention.

"Attractive product placement"? Did you read anything in the link?

ummm, explain to me how it doesn't?

Nah, you explain. You came up with the comparision.

Explain to me how it's different than a kid walking through the grocery store, seeing a cereal box that says "badass fuckin ninja figure inside!", and then saying "mom...buy me that box!"

Did the kid need that "badass fuckin ninja figure inside!" in order to get something accomplished? Was the kids progress hampered by lacking that specific item? Was the kid manipulated psychologically in order to get that particular item?

It was my understanding that the loot-box problem is different.

This fact is quite apparent.

You buy the box, hope you get what you want, but if you don't, you buy another box.

Yes, the psychological manilation needed to get you to spend more. The unboxing experience of these lootboxes is also quite pico bello.

Do you remember when happy meals had beanie babies in them for a while? People would go, buy a happy meal, look inside, and if they didn't get the beanie baby they wanted, the got back in line and bought another happy meal.

No, and I assume no one needed those beanie babies in order to accomplish something else much easier than if they didn't have that specific beanie baby.

They aren't really that different. Furthermore you should know that this has been happening in the video game industry for-fucking-ever. There was a time when people played video games, but didn't have the internet. So how the hell did people learn that Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, B, A, start would result in beginning the game with 30 lives instead of 3? If you wanted that enhanced experience, you needed to subscribe to Nintendo Fun Club News (which later became Nintendo Power Magazine).

A friend told me that cheat code. Different.

Stuck at a difficult part in a game? You can call our Game-Master help line for some insane per-minute charge. No credit card needed, we'll bill your phone line. But you're on the honor system kids when it comes to getting mom and dad's permission [lol]

In my experience, this never happened to me. Different.

And it just kept going from there. Want a blue controller instead of the standard gray? Pay us another 29.99. Then they stopped including second controllers with consoles. Want to play with a friend....another $29.99.

You can sell that controller to someone else. Or chew on it. Different.

Before HDMI cables there were those Red/Blue/Green HD inputs. No console ever shipped with the correct wires for that though. You got standard A/V cables. Want HD gaming?....another $29.99!!

You could buy these in any store at varying prices. Different.

Or even if you didn't, alot of TV's back then only had the simple RF input, which required a different adapter.....for $29.99.

Again, you could buy these in any store at varying prices. You could even borrow one if you were a broke ass. Different.

Online subscription based games have been around since the 90's. Wanna play everquest...ok the game is $70 and it doesn't do shit...AT ALL...unless you sign up to pay another $13 bucks a month. Don't like that...well then you just pissed away seventy bucks for a plastic disc ass hole. Enjoy your coaster.

Sure, as long as you advertise being an online subscription service in advance no one has a problem with it.

The point is regarding in-game purchases. The upfront money is kind of irrelevant. And some games do cost money upfront.

You missed the point completely but I'm not surprised. You were to busy arguing against your own strawmen.

Dude...it's THEIR product. They can structure and sell it however they want. The only exception is if their practices were really predatory and deceptive. And they aren't, at least not compared to anything else marketed to kids these days. So if you find that the game isn't worth the frustration....then don't fucking play it!!

I wonder what you call really predatory and deceptive. I assume it would have to involve this dude:

You know google does the exact same thing when it shows you ads based on your browsing history. Advertising to a target market is not a crime.

I was unaware that you paid google $60 to make use of its search features

Great, if you like that feature, then voice your opinion with your wallet. Buy games with that feature, and don't buy games without it.

The thing is they never advertise these features. I mean, it's kind of obvious why, but I assume I have to mention this anyway. You only get to know this, particularly if you are the casual gamer they prey on, AFTER you already bought the game "because I like Star Wars". Oh, and let's not go into preorders, that one is for a different day.

Final Fantasy X - 14 Million copies sold
Final Fantasy XI - 2 Million copies sold
Final Fantasy XII - 12 Million copies sold

I have no idea. You tell me.

Did it advertise itself as being a SAAS (Subscription Service) upfront or did the players know this AFTER PREORDERING/BUYING THE FUCKING GAME?

You guys are probably all young enough that most of your saved game files are on hard-drives now. You probably don't remember memory cards. But if you do, you probably don't remember a time BEFORE memory cards.

Yeah, once upon a time, you could just save your game. That's it.

Then in the late 90's they changed things. Now you had a choice. If you bought a game you could choose to A) Play the beginning of it over and over and over and over and over again. or B) Spend another $15 on a memory card so you can save your progress.

LOL, comparing buying tangible things to microtransactions. The only way this would compare was if buying the memory card implied you paying for a black box, which could contain the memory card, but also some broccolli and cheese, a few tic tacs and a literall polished stone. And then out of every 1000 black boxes, only 50 would contain a memory card. Also, of different sizes because why the hell not. The other 950, 600 would contain raw broccoli and cheese, 250 would contain tic tacs, and 100 would contain polished stones.

Oh, and BTW, River City ransom saves were codes. You had to input a code to get your character back.

Extra hardware, HD wires, magazine subscriptions, 900-numbers, memory cards......these were all revenue streams that gaming companies used to have, but don't anymore.

LOL, those that made the games really did benefit from selling those magazines back in the day.

You are making less and less sense, but let's continue.

How do you propose they make up the difference?

Should games just cost $150/each now and everything in them be totally free? Is that really what you want?

Cuphead recently launched at $30. No microtransactions, no PVP, no lootboxes, no DLC yet, it's not even a known IP of, shall we say, Star Wars calibre? It's just a solid good game. It sold 1 million copies at full price in 2 weeks.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/cuphead/cuphead-sales-numbers

I don't think you know what "strawman" means.?

No, you misrepresent the position/change the argument and then argue against it. Classic strawmanning

What exactly would you like to have happen here anyway? Are you really calling for government intervention over what can and can't be in a video game? Cause that is a real slippery fucking slope dude. Eventually there could come a time when games aren't allowed to have guns, show violence, or contain realistic blood, cuz it's all being regulated by your parent-gov't for the 'public good'.

I don't want slot machines in games aimed at 13 year olds. I also do not want PAY TO WIN mechanics in full priced supposedly AAA titles. I think I mentioned these quite a few times in this thread, but I maybe I'm mistaken.

You basically want your investment in these games to be capped at whatever the off-the-shelf MSRP is.

No, I don't. I bought every single DLC there was to buy for Mass Effect 2 & 3 for instance. Didn't buy the one DLC 1 had though.

You like that, cause its been that way for a long time, and change intimidates you. You are clutching to this white-knight sense of fairness that no one cares about except you. Like...you feel that a persons ability to compete in these games should be driven by their time invested and gaming talent. Now someone with more money than you can buy a winning character and do everything you can do, in a tenth of the time.

I get why that might upset you, but suck it up cupcake.

No you don't, because you keep misrepresenting my position and then arguing against it. And you also keep throwing false equivalencies in there for good measure.

but suck it up cupcake.

No, honeybun. This practice has to stop.

Sometimes businesses make accommodations for higher-profile, higher-frequency, or higher-paying customers. Just because you have a reservation doesn't mean that some high-roller can't drop the Maitre D a c-note and steal your table.

That's life

Then you advertise as such. Call it: Star Wars Casino Battlefront 2 for Rich People. Sell the game at $1000. Or whatever you want. Heck, sell the Super Titanium Deluxe Edition for $1000000. And make it 18+ as well.

But don't tell me it's NOT pay to win when it is demonstrably PAY TO WIN just as in those mobile games I don't play because they are PAY TO WIN. Also, don't tell me it's NOT GAMBLING when it definitely IS GAMBLING.

LOL, in 2017 if you paid $60 for a game that you could beat in under 90 minutes, there would be an uproar.

Maybe the government should pass laws mandating the number of quality gameplay hours per dollar a game publisher has to provide.

Not really, as long as you advertise as being such. Why the deception?

Senua’s Sacrifice is 11 hours at most (more likely between 6 and 8) to play through, and people love that game. And only $40. You see, there is this concept called replayability. Do you remember Crono Trigger? If you wanted to, you could beat it in 30 minutes flat too. Or you could take 30 hours with it. It was all up to you.

My only point was that the industry has been bilking gamers for a long time. It only seems to be a problem now because the whiners have a youtube channel they can use to promote their bitching and complaining.

My comment was somewhat hyperbolic, sorry for the confusion. My point is that once upon a time there was a lot of frustrating shit about video games that cost money. Alot of that went away as the market evolved. Sometimes it took a while for that stuff to go away. Sometimes it came back in various incarnations. And what's going on today seems absolutely no different

It's a very weak point you have, as what is going on now is not exactly like what came before. Right now we are trying to ensure that this stuff goes away because the while was already taken, but I'm afraid pandora's box is already open thanks mainly to CS-GO, Overwatch and GTA V. Which leads us to

We didn't need the government meddling then, so why the hell do we need it now?

Mainly because of the gambling non-gambling element in products marketed squarely at 13 year olds. And of course the whales (read: vulnerables)

[BananaStand]

"Attractive product placement"? Did you read anything in the link?

Yeah, and I needed a full minute to re-calibrate my eyeballs after rolling them so fucking hard. Basically it says "Video games are fun, and loot boxes are part of the game, so we made those fun too". Would you rather the screen flash a warning saying "Strap in fuck-tard, we're charging you money and you aren't gonna like it"

Nah, you explain. You came up with the comparision.

I did. Extensively

Did the kid need that "badass fuckin ninja figure inside!" in order to get something accomplished?

This statement provides some insight into your flawed thinking. Playing video games is not an "accomplishment". You're playing with a toy.

Was the kids progress hampered by lacking that specific item?

Your use of the term "progress" suggests that you take your video games a little too seriously. They're not real Jack. Ok?

Also the word "hampered" implies that there is some verifiable minimum standard of progression speed in video games. There isn't. I've been playing Clash of Clans for 5 fuckin years and I'm still on town-hall level 9. I've spent more than a year just upgrading walls. It's a grind. But if someone spends money to buy gems and get to level 10 before me...so be it. I wouldn't say that my progress has been "hampered" by not spending money. I progressed through the game at a pace and investment total that best suited my needs. If the game didn't offer me that choice, then I would have simply played a different game.

Was the kid manipulated psychologically in order to get that particular item?

Ummm....yeah. I mean, the words "badass ninja figure inside" didn't appear in tiny print under the ingredients list. It's on the front of the box, with vivid coloring, enhanced sizing, attractive posing, and high-impact words usually followed by exclamation points. It's a well known fact grocery stores will put the products they intend to move the most on the shelves closest to eye level. A store can change its top selling products just by changing which shelf those products are on. Prices ending in 99 cents are a psychological manipulation. So are 2 for 1 sales, or anything followed by the phrase "limited time offer".

All human beings really need is food, water, and shelter. A wanting for anything else is really the result of a psychological manipulation. Why did you expect video games to be immune to that?

Yes, the psychological manilation needed to get you to spend more. The unboxing experience of these lootboxes is also quite pico bello.

So they're good salesmen. Bravo to them. Why is it a crime?

No, and I assume no one needed those beanie babies in order to accomplish something else much easier than if they didn't have that specific beanie baby.

Well beanie babies don't actually 'do' anything. They exist to be collected. So in order to accomplish the goal of a complete collection, you did in fact need at least one of every specific beanie baby.

Completing the collection without that specific beanie babie was not just harder...it was impossible!

A friend told me that cheat code. Different.

Well maybe you pirated it by word-of-mouth, but if you follow the chain backward, Konami got paid somehow.

In my experience, this never happened to me. Different.

It's not different. Just because you never patronized those phone lines doesn't mean they didn't make money. People frustrated with the pace or difficulty of the game could spend money to advance more easily.

You can sell that controller to someone else. Or chew on it. Different.

What if you don't sell it to someone else? What if you just keep it forever and use it entirely for your own enjoyment. Does that mean you didn't get your money's worth?

You could buy these in any store at varying prices. Different.

Or you could buy them on amazon for a tenth of the price at stores. Does that mean the stores are evil? Or is it just smart on their part when they sell you a new console and say "you'll need a cable. You can buy one on amazon for 10 bucks, or buy ours for 30. Ours is right here, Amazon will take at least two days. If you wanna play that game you just bought tonight....then you need to put up an extra twen-spot right fuckin now bro!"

Again, you could buy these in any store at varying prices. You could even borrow one if you were a broke ass. Different.

See above. Just because ALL the stores are doing it doesn't mean it's not gouging. Also, a broke ass friend could come over to your house and play your guy on star wars. So it's not different

Sure, as long as you advertise being an online subscription service in advance no one has a problem with it.

Are you saying that video game packaging doesn't explicitly state "subscription required". I just googled some ps4 game box art and it seems that many of them do in fact contain that labeling. If all you're calling for is some consistency in labeling, then I guess I can get behind that. Most mobile games i see say "contains in game purchases". That seems like fair warning enough. If you want something more explicit than that, I'd say you're being a bit of a crybaby.

I was unaware that you paid google $60 to make use of its search features

So your'e saying that you'd be ok with the in-game bilking if your upfront cost was lower? I thought this was all about the kids or something?

The thing is they never advertise these features. I mean, it's kind of obvious why, but I assume I have to mention this anyway. You only get to know this, particularly if you are the casual gamer they prey on, AFTER you already bought the game "because I like Star Wars". Oh, and let's not go into preorders, that one is for a different day.

This is bullshit. It's widely publicized that consoles are sold pretty close to cost, or even at a loss, with the idea that it creates a revenue stream of future purchases in the form of games and accessories. The whole video game industry is built on assuming a long line of repeat purchases from a single customer. I simply don't believe that the video game industry would embrace this if it really pisses off new gamers and sours them on repeat business. Obviously, it's not as big of a problem as you seem to think it is.

LOL, comparing buying tangible things to microtransactions.

LOL at the idea that only 'tangible things' have value.

The only way this would compare was if buying the memory card implied you paying for a black box, which could contain the memory card, but also some broccolli and cheese, a few tic tacs and a literall polished stone. And then out of every 1000 black boxes, only 50 would contain a memory card. Also, of different sizes because why the hell not. The other 950, 600 would contain raw broccoli and cheese, 250 would contain tic tacs, and 100 would contain polished stones.

What does it cost to open the black box? If it's equal to the average of 50 memory cards, 600 broc & cheese, 250 tic tacs, and 100 polished stones. Then it seems pretty fair to me.

Oh, and BTW, River City ransom saves were codes. You had to input a code to get your character back

.
Yeah, and I'll bet there were codes you could put in that would give you a pretty good character, even if you hadn't 'earned' that character through game play. You could enter "JUSTIN BAILEY" on Metroid and start with a loaded Samus. No one knew that unless they read or heard about it from Nintendo Fun Club news, which only existed to bilk a few extra dollars from enthusiastic, impatient, or frustrated gamers.

LOL, those that made the games really did benefit from selling those magazines back in the day.

Dude....we didn't have the internet. Video games were not mainstream enough to be advertised in prime time. If you wanted to know what was up, you needed to read the magazines. The only reason I knew Final Fantasy existed is because of Nintendo Power. It made me want to buy the game. I did end up buying the game. So....yeah, game makers benefited ALOT from that shit.

Cuphead recently launched at $30. No microtransactions, no PVP, no lootboxes, no DLC yet, it's not even a known IP of, shall we say, Star Wars calibre? It's just a solid good game. It sold 1 million copies at full price in 2 weeks.

So?? Also, you know Star Wars caliber IP costs money right?

I don't want slot machines in games aimed at 13 year olds.

Ok, they're aren't. Don't worry.

I also do not want PAY TO WIN mechanics in full priced supposedly AAA titles.

You wouldn't care if you could afford it. And if you can't afford it, then maybe you're spending too much time playing video games.

I think I mentioned these quite a few times in this thread, but I maybe I'm mistaken.

You've said what you don't like. You haven't offered a potential solution. You just want to keep throwing a tantrum until someone bigger and stronger comes along and makes the bad people stop being bad.

No, I don't. I bought every single DLC there was to buy for Mass Effect 2 & 3 for instance. Didn't buy the one DLC 1 had though

Whaaaaaaaaaaat???? You mean you made a purchase decision based on your own needs, preferences, and budget all under your own free will??? How the fuck did you do that with all these greedy corporations controlling your mind!!!???

No, honeybun. This practice has to stop.

Why? Who is getting hurt? You and Oskar keep saying how much money the game will make.....so obviously they have an audience that isn't too offended by what they're doing.

Then you advertise as such. Call it: Star Wars Casino Battlefront 2 for Rich People. Sell the game at $1000. Or whatever you want. Heck, sell the Super Titanium Deluxe Edition for $1000000. And make it 18+ as well.

Honestly, this feels more and more about you not wanting to pay, and less and less about keeping kids away from slot machines.

But don't tell me it's NOT pay to win when it is demonstrably PAY TO WIN just as in those mobile games I don't play because they are PAY TO WIN.

no...it's 'pay to win fast'. Different.

Also, don't tell me it's NOT GAMBLING when it definitely IS GAMBLING.

It's not gambling cuz baseball cards.

Not really, as long as you advertise as being such. Why the deception?

Dude....if you advertised a game as being "1 hour long" and still charged $60 bucks...it wouldn't sell. People would consider it a ripoff. Yet, back in the day, ALL the games were like that. Obviously the definition of "ripoff" has evolved over the years, and now I'm saying you're taking it too far.

Do you remember Crono Trigger? If you wanted to, you could beat it in 30 minutes flat too. Or you could take 30 hours with it. It was all up to you.

Ok....so 'it's all up to you'. Great, we agree. Play fast, play slow, it's all up to you. Some people might choose to play 'the long way', but are also willing to pay extra for a boost. How does that diminish YOUR experience?

Mainly because of the gambling non-gambling element in products marketed squarely at 13 year olds

Stop with this....13 year olds don't have credit cards!!! An adult has to intervene in order for the 13 year old to spend any money. Yes, he can buy gift cards and use them online but he's limited by A) how much cash he has, and B) How often he can get to a store that sells gift cards. He can't go into debt. He can't blow off the mortgage payment to buy more lootboxes. And if he really is in a situation where he's spending "too much" on this stuff, then the overwhelming contributing factor is a lack of parental oversight. While that's sad, it's certainly not the job of the video game industry to sacrifice potential profits just to pick up the slack for a few bad parents.

And of course the whales (read: vulnerables)

Grown people making their own decisions is not a problem for anyone except those specific grown-ups. I simply don't believe that game makers are trying to "lure in" new gamers just to snatch $60 from them and not really care if they get pissed off after the fact over add-on transactions. That would completely undermine structure of profitability that drives the industry in the first place. The whole idea is to encourage repeat business. I flat out don't believe that there is some kind of agenda to simply screw over the unsuspecting noob with a disappointing product, bank whatever you can now, and fuck the future.

If an adult is disappointed with a toy he bought....I'm not shedding any tears for him.

[Jack Sawyer]

OK... this is not really my kind of thing, but I have to admit that I clicked on it, and lolled.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoB0HfGXNf0


Stupid video embed not working.

Embed is working. It's the front end though; some javascript is broken right now making the some of the post features not work. I assume some update broke a CDN link or something along those lines

You have to use the phpbb tags to do any quoting, stylizing or embeds around here these days

If you need a refresher course on these, here is a link

https://www.phpbb.com/community/help/bbcode

[oskar]

rofl I was just going to comment that the amount of points Banana is wrong at is insurmountable and I couldn't possibly start to argue against one of them because he'll just come up with 10 more before I'm done. Hat's off to Jack for going for it.

I'll just take this one

No...you're not 'invested'. Just because you think Captain Picard is cool, doesn't mean you have to buy every Star Trek thingy that ever comes out. If it's something you will enjoy and it's affordable for you, then buy it and have a blast. If you're going to be miserable and frustrated over the number of transactions, or if you simply can't afford to have an enjoyable experience, then....DON'T BUY THE FUCKING GAME.

Don't be this obnoxious when you're so fucking wrong. I'm not invested because of an IP, I'm invested in the game mechanics. I can't speak for other people but there is absolutely nothing out there that plays like Blizzards RTS. I can't just go play another RTS because there are none. This is like saying if they make football pay2win you can just go play basketball because it has balls and you wear shoes to play it. It's not the same!

[oskar]

* Because you're definitely going to misread this again: I'm taking a franchise I'm invested in as an example because I couldn't explain what makes the Battlefront franchise compelling because you couldn't pay me enough to play that shit.

[Jack Sawyer]

no...it's 'pay to win fast'. Different.

LOL, Banana the troll strikes again

[BananaStand]

Just went to pinch a loaf and was scrolling through my phone while I sat there. Saw an article about how EA has listened to the outrage and is changing how they deliver this new star wars game.

Apparently pre-orders are shitty.

Holy shit...the free market worked!!

[Jack Sawyer]

Just went to pinch a loaf and was scrolling through my phone while I sat there. Saw an article about how EA has listened to the outrage and is changing how they deliver this new star wars game.

Apparently pre-orders are shitty.

Holy shit...the free market worked!!

https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...78#post2280878


I see that you literally do not read posts nor reason

[BananaStand]

https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...78#post2280878


I see that you literally do not read posts nor reason

Got no speakers on this PC man.

And it kinda sounds like it is over...

[Jack Sawyer]

Got no speakers on this PC man.

And it kinda sounds like it is over...

Oh no no no. It's far from over.

Today is launch day. So it's bombs away.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/plays...battlefront-ii
http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-...battlefront-ii
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/st...battlefront-ii

https://www.slantmagazine.com/games/...battlefront-ii

It's just begun.

The problem is, as was discussed a million times already, Star Wars being such a huge IP it will sell no matter what. But there is enough of a shitstorm now for consideration, leading to them turning off money conversion entirely TEMPORARILY.

[Jack Sawyer]

Dude....we didn't have the internet. Video games were not mainstream enough to be advertised in prime time. If you wanted to know what was up, you needed to read the magazines. The only reason I knew Final Fantasy existed is because of Nintendo Power. It made me want to buy the game. I did end up buying the game. So....yeah, game makers benefited ALOT from that shit.

You do understand, I assume, that Nintendo is just one publisher which also happened to be the dominant console maker back in the day right? What about all of the other devs? Did they have magazines too?

What does it cost to open the black box? If it's equal to the average of 50 memory cards, 600 broc & cheese, 250 tic tacs, and 100 polished stones. Then it seems pretty fair to me.

Whatever it's cost, you'd be GAMBLING for your memory card. The Nile is also a river in Egypt.

Whaaaaaaaaaaat???? You mean you made a purchase decision based on your own needs, preferences, and budget all under your own free will??? How the fuck did you do that with all these greedy corporations controlling your mind!!!???

LOL. I'll bite.

It wasn't thrown into my face. My progression was not hampered because I lacked it. It was not cut out from the game prior top release just to be readded as paid content later. They were upfront about it back then. It did not cost more than the game itself.

This statement provides some insight into your flawed thinking. Playing video games is not an "accomplishment". You're playing with a toy.

Exactly, but one which wants to manipulate you into dumping all your money into it, for no reason other than to keep playing with the toy. Don't throw in money, the toy becomes tough; throw in money, the toy becomes easy. The amounts of money are not children's candy prices either.

Why? Who is getting hurt? You and Oskar keep saying how much money the game will make.....so obviously they have an audience that isn't too offended by what they're doing.

An audience that doesn't KNOW what they are doing, banana. There is massive a difference.

Ever heard of the frog in the boiling pot metaphor?

Your use of the term "progress" suggests that you take your video games a little too seriously. They're not real Jack. Ok?

The money you lose at them is very real. Thank you for slowly arriving at some sense.

It's not gambling cuz baseball cards.

Another false equivalency. Great.

Honestly, this feels more and more about you not wanting to pay, and less and less about keeping kids away from slot machines.

Say it upfront and if I want I'll pay. Why the dishonesty? Why the bullshit? Why the insistence that gambling isn't gambling? Why the SAAS while insisting I pay for entry as well?

Well beanie babies don't actually 'do' anything. They exist to be collected. So in order to accomplish the goal of a complete collection, you did in fact need at least one of every specific beanie baby.

You can collect them? Which means they have actual, intrinsic value right?

[quote="Banana"]Well maybe you pirated it by word-of-mouth, but if you follow the chain backward, Konami got paid somehow./quote]



I learned of it organically, so no, Nintendo didn't get paid on that one thing, as, you know, they owned Nintendo Power and not Konami.

Also the word "hampered" implies that there is some verifiable minimum standard of progression speed in video games. There isn't. I've been playing Clash of Clans for 5 fuckin years and I'm still on town-hall level 9. I've spent more than a year just upgrading walls. It's a grind. But if someone spends money to buy gems and get to level 10 before me...so be it. I wouldn't say that my progress has been "hampred" by not spending money. I progressed through the game at a pace and investment total that best suited my needs. If the game didn't offer me that choice, then I would have simply played a different game.

You play mobile games. I don't, because I despise the "free" mobile game accepted monetization practices. I would not want for full price console games to become like "free" mobile games, because, again, I PAID TO FUCKING PLAY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Throw in there the fact that I do not wants kids gambling (for memory cards, keeping in line with the analogy earlier which you found so fair), and then you get the entire argument for the millionth time.

[quote="Banana"]Ok....so 'it's all up to you'. Great, we agree. Play fast, play slow, it's all up to you. Some people might choose to play 'the long way', but are also willing to pay extra for a boost. How does that diminish YOUR experience?
/quote]

Ever heard of multiplayer? PVP? That damned activision patent I just showed you? Why, oh enlightened banana, do you think the focus is so much on multiplayer battles nowadays? Combat prioritization, fuck story. Why do you think this is?

Also the word "hampered" implies that there is some verifiable minimum standard of progression speed in video games. There isn't. I've been playing Clash of Clans for 5 fuckin years and I'm still on town-hall level 9. I've spent more than a year just upgrading walls. It's a grind. But if someone spends money to buy gems and get to level 10 before me...so be it. I wouldn't say that my progress has been "hampred" by not spending money. I progressed through the game at a pace and investment total that best suited my needs. If the game didn't offer me that choice, then I would have simply played a different game.

There isn't. They just make any progress impossible. Here, a spreadsheet for you as an example.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dhQ/edit#gid=0

[quote="Banana"]Why? Who is getting hurt? You and Oskar keep saying how much money the game will make.....so obviously they have an audience that isn't too offended by what they're doing./quote]

Kids, gambling. People with gambling tendencies being exposed to gambling while others swearing up and down it isn't gambling. People who want to just play single player games with certain monopolized ips. People who buy the games expecting to play the game hitting grindwalls and paywalls. General game design is getting hurt too. I can keep going.

[quote="Banana"]Stop with this....13 year olds don't have credit cards!!! An adult has to intervene in order for the 13 year old to spend any money. Yes, he can buy gift cards and use them online but he's limited by A) how much cash he has, and B) How often he can get to a store that sells gift cards. He can't go into debt. He can't blow off the mortgage payment to buy more lootboxes. And if he really is in a situation where he's spending "too much" on this stuff, then the overwhelming contributing factor is a lack of parental oversight. While that's sad, it's certainly not the job of the video game industry to sacrifice potential profits just to pick up the slack for a few bad parents./quote]

I will stop when they stop targeting these games at kids. Need for Speed: Payback has lootboxes and progression hampering in it, for christ sakes. 2017 will go down in history as The Year of the Lootbox.


I'm done bro. Keep trolling.

[BananaStand]

Did they have magazines too?

Electronic Gaming Monthly was a thing back then. So, yes.

Whatever it's cost, you'd be GAMBLING for your memory card. The Nile is also a river in Egypt.

No you wouldn't. You'd be spending an average amount per transaction, and receiving an item from a population of items that have an average value equal to what you spent. Again...baseball cardzzzz!!!

The google definition of gambling is to "take risky action in the hope of a desired result". There is nothing "risky" about buying something. Just because it might not be what you want, doesn't mean it's gambling. There's no risk. You can't LOSE.

It wasn't thrown into my face.

Aggressive advertising offends you? Crybaby

My progression was not hampered because I lacked it.

Was your progress enhanced because you had it? That's probably the way to describe it. "hampered" just isn't apt in this situation. That's just a word you're using cause you're a crybaby.

It was not cut out from the game prior top release just to be readded as paid content later

If it's cut out before release, then it's cut out before you buy it. Nothing was *taken* from you. Only a crybaby would feel that he's owed something he was never entitled to in the first place.

They were upfront about it back then

Do they need to be now? Clearly you're already quite well informed, so I'm not really sure what all this crybaby stuff is about.

It did not cost more than the game itself.

But they still sold it to kids right? Funny....that one doesn't make your list of gripe-comparisons to the 'good old days'.

Exactly, but one which wants to manipulate you into dumping all your money into it, for no reason other than to keep playing with the toy. Don't throw in money, the toy becomes tough; throw in money, the toy becomes easy. The amounts of money are not children's candy prices either

Tough or easy are questions of personal preference. Cheap or expensive are relative terms as well. So it sounds like a person should be able to determine a level of investment and level of difficulty that best suits them. You seem to be saying that everyone should want it cheap and easy, and that the game-makers should be required to provide it the way you personally enjoy. Crybaby stuff dude.

An audience that doesn't KNOW what they are doing, banana. There is massive a difference.

Do you know anyone in this audience? Is this REALLY a widespread problem? Anecdotes don't count. If this was really something that was happening, then the gaming industry would be losing customers left and right. An industry scaring off its own clientele is stupid, but still not illegal, or even immoral. It's just hopelessly stupid, which is why I simply don't believe that a double-digit billion dollar industry is actually doing this.

Ever heard of the frog in the boiling pot metaphor?

Well no one is being cooked to death, so it's a little bit of an extreme comparison. If someone gets into gaming and accepts that the culture includes loot boxes, so what? Why does someone need to be enlightened on "the good old days" in order to decide whether not they can enjoy the current gaming culture. And as I've pointed out extensively, "the good old days" weren't as good as you think they were.

The money you lose at them is very real. Thank you for slowly arriving at some sense

.
I'm sorry....I need some help here. How do you "lose money" at these things. You get something every time you pay for something right? Do you ever pay money just to have the screen flash "you lose, here's nothing, better luck next time"

Another false equivalency. Great.

you're only claiming that it's a false equivalency because the cards are tangible and have some value in perpetuity. I completely deny that logic because it is OBVIOUS that something can have value, and be consumed. Food is an excellent example. I ate lunch today. It's fucking worthless to you. I can't touch it anymore. I can't sell it to anyone. But I got everything I needed and expected from it. So it was worth the money I paid for it.

Baseball cards don't "do" anything. Video games actively provide entertainment. Just because the value of the card stays with the card, and the value of a video game is specific to the player, doesn't mean that one is gambling and one isn't. It's just a different way to consume value.

Say it upfront and if I want I'll pay. Why the dishonesty? Why the bullshit?

It's my understanding that the game isn't even out yet. And yet, you already know this. So I'm not sure why you're complaining about people not saying things "upfront". Exactly how were you deceived into a purchase decision if you're so well informed prior to release?

Why the insistence that gambling isn't gambling?

Cuz it aint. There's no 'risk'.

Why the SAAS while insisting I pay for entry as well?

This is just you bitching about high prices. Crybaby.

You can collect them? Which means they have actual, intrinsic value right?

Dude, stop this. Value can exist many different ways. Collectibles and Consumables are different. Sorry if that offends you, but you really need to get over it.

You play mobile games. I don't, because I despise the "free" mobile game accepted monetization practices

.
LOL, ok then. How about you just make that a policy for ALL games, not just mobile. From now on, your rule will be "I don't play games I don't like". Then just go with that. Why try to force YOUR preferences onto the entire industry? Obviously, not everyone "despises" it the way you do.

I would not want for full price console games to become like "free" mobile games, because, again, I PAID TO FUCKING PLAY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Obviously you didn't pay enough!! The people who make the game decide what you need to pay to have a certain experience. If you want that experience, you pay. You don't get to set your own price. You don't get to pay less and then demand maximum value! If people are willing to pay for the maximum experience, then there is a market there and there is no compelling reason to interfere with commerce. If some poor people get left out....so what. Video games are not a right!

Throw in there the fact that I do not wants kids gambling

Right....throw that in, cuz without it your argument is just a bunch of selfish belly-aching.

Ever heard of multiplayer? PVP? That damned activision patent I just showed you? Why, oh enlightened banana, do you think the focus is so much on multiplayer battles nowadays? Combat prioritization, fuck story. Why do you think this is?

So this really is just about jealousy. You can't compete against the folks willing to spend more, so you whine about it. C'mon dude.

There isn't. They just make any progress impossible. Here, a spreadsheet for you as an example
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dhQ/edit#gid=0

What is this? More belly-aching about how long and hard it is to get what you want??

Kids, gambling.

OMG give this up dude. Kids dont' have credit cards. And this really isn't any different than them buying pokemon cards.

People with gambling tendencies being exposed to gambling while others swearing up and down it isn't gambling.

Stop it. It's not the video game industry's problem to protect people from themselves. Haven't we had this conversation before? Violent video games didn't cause Columbine, and lootboxes aren't going to exacerbate gambling problems.

People who want to just play single player games with certain monopolized ips.

The box says right on it if it's a single player game or not.

People who buy the games expecting to play the game hitting grindwalls and paywalls.

Not a new thing dude.

I will stop when they stop targeting these games at kids.

Star Wars is a 40 year old franchise, you know that right?

[Jack Sawyer]

LOL, troll.

I'm done feeding the troll, as I wrote above

[BananaStand]

Definitely not trolling. Everything I posted was sincere.

And now correct me if I'm wrong, but your position can be summed up like this....

"The practice is wrong because it exposes children to gambling"

Do I have that right? You don't want gambling marketed to kids, right?

Yet you have no problem with a game whose object is to murder your opponent, being marketed to kids. Shoot your opponent dead with a gun kids, but don't touch slot machines.

Aren't you a little embarrassed at the irony of that?

[Jack Sawyer]

Definitely not trolling. Everything I posted was sincere.

Of course. Yet first line you claim somehow EGM == Nintendo Power.

Nintendo Power was first party. EGM was just a fucking magazine that covered gaming. How the fuck did they have anything to do with Konami is beyond me.

And then you go on strawmanning and throwing more false equivalencies around, and yet claim to be serious.

You cannot be this dense. Of course you are trolling

And now correct me if I'm wrong, but your position can be summed up like this....

"The practice is wrong because it exposes children to gambling"

Do I have that right? You don't want gambling marketed to kids, right?

Yet you have no problem with a game whose object is to murder your opponent, being marketed to kids. Shoot your opponent dead with a gun kids, but don't touch slot machines.

Aren't you a little embarrassed at the irony of that?

This small thing, in the actual case of battlefront.

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis...Battlefront+2+

And also this small thing, in regards to NFS Payback

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis...Need+For+Speed

And this one, with more blood and killing

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis...d+Theft+Auto+V

Do you spot a difference?




Fun fact: none of these games tell prospective buyers upfront about having micropayments nor lootboxes. Like opening a cracker jack box.


I will leave it up to you to guess which has which.



P.S.

Kids, gambling


Now I'm truly done.

[BananaStand]

TEEN
Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.

So it is right there on the box then.....

Where's the deception?

The ESRB says gambling is ok to show to 13 year olds. Maybe your beef is with them and not EA?

[Jack Sawyer]

LOL

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/...ope-nope-nope/

So it is right there on the box then.....

Where's the deception?

The ESRB says gambling is ok to show to 13 year olds. Maybe your beef is with them and not EA?

Finally you are starting to make sense. That is the current pricess.

I thought you said it wasn't gambling?

[Jack Sawyer]

*Process


Editing is more work now that the front end is broken

[Jack Sawyer]

A higher level non-troll discussion about where we are now and where we are going.

[BananaStand]

I was at gamestop over the weekend. Gave strong consideration to buying a PS4.

Then I thought...what games would I get?

I like Grand Theft Auto. They have #5. But wait...I already have #5 for PS3 at home. They have Call of Duty, I like Call of Duty. Though....I have played like...nine other call of duties in the last five years, and they were all pretty much the fucking same. Destiny 2 seems popular. Wait a minute...don't I have Destiny 1 at home, and barely played it? Yeah, I do.

There's a God of War game....hmmm looks like more of the same button mashing from the last 4 games....which I already have.

Dragon Age, DarkSiders, Final Fantasy, Killzone, Metal Gear, Gran Tourismo, Resident Evil, Ratchet & Clank, open world Batman games, and Lego [name any mildly popular franchise]....

I've played ALL of these games many many many times already.

IS THERE ANYTHING NEW??

[Luco]

I was at gamestop over the weekend. Gave strong consideration to buying a PS4.

Then I thought...what games would I get?

I like Grand Theft Auto. They have #5. But wait...I already have #5 for PS3 at home. They have Call of Duty, I like Call of Duty. Though....I have played like...nine other call of duties in the last five years, and they were all pretty much the fucking same. Destiny 2 seems popular. Wait a minute...don't I have Destiny 1 at home, and barely played it? Yeah, I do.

There's a God of War game....hmmm looks like more of the same button mashing from the last 4 games....which I already have.

Dragon Age, DarkSiders, Final Fantasy, Killzone, Metal Gear, Gran Tourismo, Resident Evil, Ratchet & Clank, open world Batman games, and Lego [name any mildly popular franchise]....

I've played ALL of these games many many many times already.

IS THERE ANYTHING NEW??

Horizon Zero Dawn, Bloodborne, The Last Guardian are all new IPs and exclusive to PS4. Uncharted 4 is also very very good but you'll probably hate it because it has a 4 in the title

[BananaStand]

Horizon Zero Dawn, Bloodborne, The Last Guardian are all new IPs and exclusive to PS4.

Are they good?

Uncharted 4 is also very very good but you'll probably hate it because it has a 4 in the title

I have at least 1 and 2. Maybe 3. Is 4 worth investing in a new console?

Also, I'm being sincere when I say I really don't know how many of these games I already have. This is kind of the problem. I have nearly 100 PS3 games that I either haven't played, or don't really remember playing. So I'm wondering if buying a PS4 and the new call of duty game will be significantly more enjoyable than than just re-playing the 5 call of duties that I already have.

[Luco]

Are they good?

Horizon - would have been an easy GOTY 2017 if it didn't come out 3 days before zelda
Bloodborne - won several GOTY awards in 2015
Last guardian - picked up a few GOTY nominations, not as good as the other two but still fun

I have at least 1 and 2. Maybe 3. Is 4 worth investing in a new console?

Also, I'm being sincere when I say I really don't know how many of these games I already have. This is kind of the problem. I have nearly 100 PS3 games that I either haven't played, or don't really remember playing. So I'm wondering if buying a PS4 and the new call of duty game will be significantly more enjoyable than than just re-playing the 5 call of duties that I already have.

I still think uncharted 2 is the best of them all, but I very much enjoyed 3&4 and 4 is better than 3 imo

For opinions on call of duty you'd have to ask my eldest, he's the big COD fan in our house

[Savy]

Also, I'm being sincere when I say I really don't know how many of these games I already have. This is kind of the problem. I have nearly 100 PS3 games that I either haven't played, or don't really remember playing. So I'm wondering if buying a PS4 and the new call of duty game will be significantly more enjoyable than than just re-playing the 5 call of duties that I already have.

Maybe you just aren't that into gaming anymore? Buying the latest shit may give you the excitement back for a little bit but it's not the problem.

[BananaStand]

Maybe you just aren't that into gaming anymore? Buying the latest shit may give you the excitement back for a little bit but it's not the problem.

That's what I was thinking. Though there are some games that just 'addict' me and I'll play non-stop for a couple weeks, then I'll stop playing for months. Like a binge-addiction. I just don't wanna binge on the same old shit anymore. And a lot of the latest games are really just more polished versions of the same old shit.

[Savy]

Buy a PC?

[BananaStand]

Buy a PC?

I went down that road a little bit in the early 00's. Too much worrying if each game is compatible with my graphics card. Too much installing and downloading of patches. Drivers....blech. I just wanna put the disc in and play. If it's even a little bit of work to make the game operate....then fuck it, I'm out

Plus, isn't it just another medium for the same old shitty games?

Which installment of Quake are they on now?

[Poopadoop]

I get most of my games on Steam now. No discs, no going to the store and works reasonably well. About 1/8 games has a problem running on it, but not clear how much of that is my pc and how much is steam, and in any case there's usually a fix.

[oskar]

Disregarding the fact that it's a pretty shitty time for buying a PC - DDR3&4 being twice the price they've been 6 months ago and graphics cards also getting more expensive because of crypto currency, it's really hard to justify a console once you've invested in a decent PC. I have everything hooked up to my PC. My stereo, the TV, all my instruments - midi keyboard, guitar, bass are always hooked up to my soundcard and run through amp sims and virtual instruments. I have a couple of xbox controllers on the couch table that I can use to control pretty much everything with through Controller Companion ($4 on steam)
You really don't need to worry about compatibility. Every game runs with every graphics card as long as it's from the past 8 years. I have a 970 and I run all the games that matter at 200fps/medium graphics. You can get away with a gtx 770 you're still comfortably above the specs of "next gen" consoles.
There are maybe 3 games a year that are console exclusive that I miss out on, but they're not worth the price of a console that's just going to sit there doing nothing most of the time.

If I were to build a gaming pc for a console price point right now it would be: 4460+mainboard+ram ~$150, gtx970 ~$150, seasonic 450w ~30, 250gig ssd: $80, plus a case from a dumpster - all used ldo. If you shop around you can probably get this for closer to $300 and it's going to annihilate a ps4.

[Luco]

Disregarding the fact that it's a pretty shitty time for buying a PC - DDR3&4 being twice the price they've been 6 months ago and graphics cards also getting more expensive because of crypto currency, it's really hard to justify a console once you've invested in a decent PC. I have everything hooked up to my PC. My stereo, the TV, all my instruments - midi keyboard, guitar, bass are always hooked up to my soundcard and run through amp sims and virtual instruments. I have a couple of xbox controllers on the couch table that I can use to control pretty much everything with through Controller Companion ($4 on steam)
You really don't need to worry about compatibility. Every game runs with every graphics card as long as it's from the past 8 years. I have a 970 and I run all the games that matter at 200fps/medium graphics. You can get away with a gtx 770 you're still comfortably above the specs of "next gen" consoles.
There are maybe 3 games a year that are console exclusive that I miss out on, but they're not worth the price of a console that's just going to sit there doing nothing most of the time.

If I were to build a gaming pc for a console price point right now it would be: 4460+mainboard+ram ~$150, gtx970 ~$150, seasonic 450w ~30, 250gig ssd: $80, plus a case from a dumpster - all used ldo. If you shop around you can probably get this for closer to $300 and it's going to annihilate a ps4.

Yeah it's rough going if you need a GPU or ram right now.

PC is my main gaming rig but I also have a PS4, xbone and a switch and all of them do get used (I have two teenage boys in the house as well) so I'm very fortunate not to miss out on any exclusives

[BananaStand]

My stereo, the TV, all my instruments - midi keyboard, guitar, bass are always hooked up to my soundcard and run through amp sims and virtual instruments. I have a couple of xbox controllers on the couch table that I can use to control pretty much everything with through Controller Companion

Not many women coming through your place, huh?

[MadMojoMonkey]

"My stereo, the TV, all my instruments - midi keyboard, guitar, bass are always hooked up to my soundcard and run through amp sims and virtual instruments."

oskar confirmed cool

[oskar]

Was that not abundantly obvious already...

[MadMojoMonkey]

@ Oscar "Was that not abundantly obvious already... "

I had my suspicions, but now I'm certain, is all.

[oskar]

Not many women coming through your place, huh?

[something, something] your mom

[Savy]

[something, something] your mom[/FONT][/COLOR]

Your mom cums whilst at my place.

[BananaStand]

So I dug through my PS3 collection over the weekend looking for something to play. I had purchased, but not yet played, Borderlands. I recall it being popular and well reviewed, so I started playing.

I hate this fucking game.

Not gonna get into a review here, let's just say I'm never playing it again. So I went and searched for reviews to try and find out why it was so popular. All the reviews said the same thing. "Not for everyone. This is a 'loot collecting' game that's only fun if you play online"

What the fuck is a "loot collecting game"?

I know what all those words mean, but I can't see how a literal interpretation of that phrase could be anything resembling fun. I guess I'm old fashioned, but video games should be about saving the world. Who the hell gets excited about opening a box and finding a BX9C Repeater Pistol to replace your QR-72 Revolver? Sure, stat boosts are cool for about five seconds. But all they do is help you slog through a whole bunch of boring shit a little bit faster.

Is that what video games are about these days? Are they intentionally shitty? Do they do that so they can reward your play by making the game end sooner?

I'm right on the verge of buying a PS4. I have my eye on a few titles but I would like to know what I'm getting into.

I prefer single player games where I save the world. I realize I can't resist playing online games forever, so I'm willing to dabble. But I'm not paying extra for money for shit after I've already bought the game. And I don't wanna get my ass handed to me all the time either.

Here are some games I'm considering. Will I hate any of these?

Overwatch
Final Fantasy 15
The Last of Us
BloodBorne
Witcher 3
Destiny 2
Horizon: Zero Dawn
Metal Gear
And I'll probably try and catch up on any God of War, resident Evil, and Uncharted games that I've missed

What else should be on that list?

[Luco]

Here are some games I'm considering. Will I hate any of these?

Overwatch
Final Fantasy 15
The Last of Us
BloodBorne
Witcher 3
Destiny 2
Horizon: Zero Dawn
Metal Gear
And I'll probably try and catch up on any God of War, resident Evil, and Uncharted games that I've missed

What else should be on that list?

If you never got the last of us on PS3 then definitely pick it up for PS4!

Overwatch is a fantastic game but it's a long way away from 'single player save the world'

Bloodborne, witcher 3, horizon and uncharted 4 will all appeal to you for sure. Can't comment on the latest uncharted (lost legacy) as I haven't picked it up yet

[BananaStand]

What exactly is Overwatch all about? It looks fun as fuck.

[BananaStand]

I'm playing Darksiders 2 as part of my effort to milk every last drop of value from my PS3. I was one of the suckers that bought it around launch time and paid $600 for a 60GB machine.

Anyway, I'm slogging through this dungeon and I go into a room, kill all the demons or whatever are in there, and I'm rewarded with a treasure chest containing a new piece of armor. My current armor boosts defense by +21. This new armor has boost of +24. Equipped.

I move to the next room and see a treasure chest on the other side. The path is obstructed. So I scale a wall, hop across two platforms, swing from a beam, and boom, I drop down Ninja style in front of the chest. Open it up....New armor!! +26.

Now can someone please tell me what is fun about a "loot collecting game"?????????

I mean, that first armor upgrade was totally pointless. I didn't encounter an enemy at all before I found something better. A better upgrade was literally in the very next room. There was absolutely nothing nearby that had any capability to attack me.

Apparently I'm just supposed to think it's fun to have an extra piece of armor listed in some tiny-print inventory screen.

Hooray!

It used to be that you had to fight your balls off through an entire area, and win an epic boss fight before you got anything at all. Then you got the mega-buster sword of ages or whatever and it felt like a real reward. It was insanely satisfying to take it into battle and unleash this awesome new power.

Now we're just collecting junk and calling it fun?

Are all games like this now?

[oskar]

Are all games like this now?

Both of those games are 5+ year old you donkey.
Borderlands was heavily advertised as a loot-n-shoot game. The big draw of Borderlands 2 was: more loot. This is a common theme for you. You pick a very specific thing and then you complain about the core nature of that thing. If you don't like loot I can't think of a less fitting game than Borderlands for you to pick.

[BananaStand]

Both of those games are 5+ year old you donkey.

So?

Games I played before those were good. These games, aren't. If you're telling me that games were bad for a while, begginning 5+ years ago, then fine. When did they stop being bad, and what time period of gaming should I avoid?

Borderlands was heavily advertised as a loot-n-shoot game.

I made the purchase long after the release. So I missed the ad. All I knew at the time was that it was a well reviewed shooting game. Call of Duty, Resistance, and Killzone are all well reviewed shooting games, and I like those. So....Borderlands.

Where did "loot and shoot" come from??? Obviously, I know what that means now. But when did it become a thing??

The big draw of Borderlands 2 was: more loot

And people bought it??? No one thought they would rather have more action, more interesting quests, or simply more fun??

This is a common theme for you. You pick a very specific thing and then you complain about the core nature of that thing.

So?

If you don't like loot I can't think of a less fitting game than Borderlands for you to pick.

Well luckily it wasn't a major investment. I'm sure I paid less than $10 for this.

My point isn't really about whether or not I like loot. I'm just not understanding why it's become a main driver of gameplay. I mean, I don't like relish, but I understand why some people do. I understand why relish companies are in business. I understand that there is a demand for that product.

But I'm curious as to why anyone is interested in a loot collecting game.

I have no idea why it's fun to pick up an item, and then try to navigate cumbersome menus to find out if it's actually better than your current item. I have no idea why it's fun to equip that item, use it for five seconds, and then find another item so you can go back to the menu and re-live that whole painful cycle over again.

And most importantly.....how common is this dynamic in games today?

[oskar]

Overwatch is really fun. I don't know if I could recommend it on console. The community is a bit more salty than is fitting for a game this casual, but it's not the worst community ever either.

[BananaStand]

BTW all the news showing up on my radar seems to suggest that EA is getting kicked in the balls as a consequence of the shit Jack has been complaining about.

Free markets > Gov't regulation

[oskar]

Yeah they might have gone too far in a few places. I didn't think the backlash would be that massive either. Usually there's a bit of crying, then there's some damage control and the company is better off for the free press, but this time it might really have backfired and that's great!

[Savy]

This apple is shit it tastes nothing like a banana.

Loot is there for character progression and reward. When you start a game you're meant to get constant upgrades as it wants to get you hooked and people like being given things. Then when you're more invested in the game the rewards can be more spaced out.

I think a lot of games are a bit too custom happy these days & a bit too open ended and it puts me off playing them.

[MadMojoMonkey]

At a certain point of loot overflow, I usually end up asking myself if I'm ignoring the RP part of the RPG and simply trying to hoard all the things. I have yet to come across a situation where I didn't enjoy the game a lot more when I decided to put some RP into the gaming.

[BananaStand]

I think a lot of games are a bit too custom happy these days & a bit too open ended and it puts me off playing them.

^This

I can't tell you how many times I've booted a game and had this happen:
Me: So, what do I do?
Game: It's a deeply customizable open world
Me: Cool, but what do I do?
Game: You can do anything you want.
Me: I want to win
Game: Does not compute