Cryptocurrencies

[Keith]

CRYPTO22200 - Cryptoassets for individuals: Capital Gains Tax: pooling


Pooling under TCGA92/S104 allows for simpler Capital Gains Tax calculations. Pooling applies to shares and securities of companies and also ‘any other assets where they are of a nature to be dealt in without identifying the particular assets disposed of or acquired’.
Where the nature of the tokens means they are dealt in without identifying the particular tokens being disposed of or acquired then the tokens should be pooled as per TCGA92/S104(3)(ii) (CG11820). This is commonly referred to as a ‘section 104 pool’. If TCGA92/S104(3)(ii) applies then the beneficial owner of the tokens will have a single pooled asset for Capital Gains Tax purposes that will increase or decrease with each acquisition, part disposal or disposal.
Non-Fungible Tokens (NFTs) are separately identifiable and so are not pooled.
Each type of token will need its own pool. For example, if a person owns bitcoin, ether and litecoin they would have three pools and each one would have its own ‘pooled allowable cost’ associated with it. This pooled allowable cost changes as more tokens of that particular type are acquired and disposed of.
Individuals must still keep a record of the amount spent on each type of token, as well as the pooled allowable cost of each pool.
Same day rule

TCGA1992/S105

Where an individual makes acquisitions and disposals of a particular type of tokens on the same day then the same day rules ensure that the maximum number of CGT computations the individual will need to produce for that token type is one per calendar day.
When tokens of the same type are acquired and disposed of by the same individual on the same day and in the same capacity then:

• all the tokens acquired shall be treated as acquired in a single transaction
• all the tokens disposed of shall be treated as disposed of in a single transaction

The tokens acquired will, as far as possible, be matched with the tokens disposed of so that those tokens don’t go into the section 104 pool:

• if the quantity of tokens acquired exceeds the number disposed of then the excess tokens will then be considered for the 30 day rule (covered below) and if that doesn’t apply then they will go into the section 104 pool
• if the quantity of tokens disposed of exceeds the number acquired then the excess tokens will then be considered for the 30 day rule (covered below) and if that doesn’t apply then they will be treated as a disposal from the section 104 pool.

Acquiring tokens within 30 days of selling

TCGA1992/S106A

If an individual disposes of tokens and then acquires, in the same capacity, tokens of the same type within the next 30 days then:

• the same day rule (covered above) is applied first if applicable
• the tokens acquired to which the 30 day rule applies don’t go into the section 104 pool but instead are matched to the earlier disposal (or disposals) of tokens
• the tokens acquired to which the 30 day rule applies are matched to disposals on the basis of earliest disposal first
• if the quantity of tokens so acquired exceeds the number of tokens disposed of in the preceding 30 days then the excess tokens will go into the section 104 pool.

Further guidance on these rules is at CG51560.

[Poopadoop]

Sure, but I'll have to rub the weed on my ballsack first so the sniffer dogs don't out me.

Not sure what the gov't does here, but I'm guessing they do something like look at your transactions and say "hmm, Ong bought 100 bongcoins this year at 0.001c ea. and then later sold them at 0.002c, that's a profit of 0.1. Then they say "Ong bought 100 spliffcoins at 0.001c and at the end of the tax year they were trading for 0.002c, that's a profit of 0.1." Then they tot those up for all your coins you've bought and sold in the tax year to figure out how much your profit is.

Better start keeping records is my advice. But surely if the gov't can find out how much you made in a year then you can as well, no?

[OngBonga]

I definitely want bongcoins and spliffcoins, to go with my $cunt and $ass.

I mean, I'm not even sure if the govt can track my activity. Binance is Chinese, and Bitmart have offices in China, Hong Kong, Seoul, and New York. It would be a lot of effort to take a look at my affairs, especially if I'm paying CGT, when you consider there needs to be bilateral cooperation, plus I'm as small a fish to fry as it gets. Why bother for what must be at most £1k or so in tax evasion?

Better start keeping records is my advice.

I don't actually need to, the exchanges keep records which I have access to. However, I have 20 pages, with 30 transactions per page, in two days alone. This is an insane amount of work to calculate a small amount of tax. I mean, I'm nowhere near the tax threshold yet anyway, by the time I get there I'll have thousands of pages of transactions. I obviously can't be going through 50k+ transactions, and if I hire an accountant it will cost a fortune, which incidentally would be tax deductible and result in me paying less or even no tax. I might even be legally justified in deducting a reasonable sum for my time calculating my tax obligations, and it'll be a lot more than minimum wage. So it's a right fucking mess, frankly.

What keith just posted suggests my daily profits, or monthly profits, are relevant here. But again, I can only accurately calculate this by factoring in every single transaction, so it's not cutting out the work. And we're still ignoring one important factor... that each individual transaction is a zero profit transaction in isolation. I need a pair of transactions to show a profit (or loss).

I'm just going to pay CGT on my withdrawals. Or maybe income tax. I'll take advice on this when the time comes. I'm not going to process every transaction though, nor am I going to hire someone else to do it for me.

[Poopadoop]

And we're still ignoring one important factor... that each individual transaction is a zero profit transaction in isolation. I need a pair of transactions to show a profit (or loss).

I seriously doubt that's how they look at it. Otherwise people could just keep trading up and never pay any tax. What are you going to tell them when you started with £200 worth of bongcoins and then a year later trade your bongcoins for a house? "It was a zero profit transaction, m'lord," is not going to get you out of it I don't think.

I'm just going to pay CGT on my withdrawals. Or maybe income tax. I'll take advice on this when the time comes. I'm not going to process every transaction though, nor am I going to hire someone else to do it for me.

CG and income are different things. You're making CG by trading, not income.

I mean if you know how much you started with in fiat value, just compare that to what your coins are worth in fiat at the end of the tax year. If it's less than £12.3k more than you started with then don't sweat it. If it's more then pay some accountant £100 to sort it out. I doubt he will have to sit down and go through every single transaction though.

Like if you own a pub, the taxman says pay us x% of your profits. You figure out your profits and pay the x%. You don't have to go through every single drink and food order and bag of crisps you sold and add them all up. Same thing here I would think.

[OngBonga]

I seriously doubt that's how they look at it. Otherwise people could just keep trading up and never pay any tax. What are you going to tell them when you started with £200 worth of bongcoins and then a year later trade your bongcoins for a house? "It was a zero profit transaction, m'lord," is not going to get you out of it I don't think.

You're missing the point. I can't buy a house with bongcoins, I have to "dispose" of them by trading them for fiat, only then can I buy a house. There's where they should be taxing.

The point remains, if I trade 1 bongcoin for 10 spliffcoins, the value of 1 bongcoin at the instant of that transaction is 10 spliffcoins, it was my transaction that determined the value. That's zero profit, because I traded two assets of equal value.

CG and income are different things. You're making CG by trading, not income.

I hope you're right, because that reduces my tax burden. CGT is less. But I'm sorry but your word on this isn't enough, I'll need to take advice to make sure I'm paying the right kind of tax.

If it's more then pay some accountant £100 to sort it out

I think it'll be more than this, but essentially it's costing me nothing so long as it's less than the due tax, since accounting is tax deductible.

I doubt he will have to sit down and go through every single transaction though.

What keith posts implies differently.

Like if you own a pub, the taxman says pay us x% of your profits. You figure out your profits and pay the x%. You don't have to go through every single drink and food order and bag of crisps you sold and add them all up. Same thing here I would think.

I hope it's this simple. But when it comes to crypto, there's debate on what "profit" is. I'm arguing it's what gets turned from crypto into fiat. keith is arguing that it's the profit per transaction, which I believe is zero. This is why it's not very simple.

[CoccoBill]

You first have cash.
Then you sell it for [something, like a crypto] for price x.
Then after a while, you sell [something, like crypto] for price y.
If y>x, the excess is taxable as cgt, starting from your allowance limit.
Each transaction you make from cash to asset and back is counted.
Or well, that's how it works here, so I'm assuming it's the same there.

[OngBonga]

I am definitely pissing people off with my mega aggressive tactics. There's currently a huge buy order blocking any profit, but that doesn't stop people from desperately trying to get ahead of others lower down the queue. I'm kinda bored so it's fun to just annoy people. As soon as they give up, I remove my buy orders. It's psychology. I want them to know I'm an asshole. This one guy just spent a good ten minutes edging ahead of me. Now he's parked lower down the queue after thinking "fuck this". To me it's entertainment while I wait for this massive buy order to fuck off.

[OngBonga]

Then after a while, you sell [something, like crypto] for price y.

Actually I'm trading crypto for crypto. $USDT is not fiat, it is a cryptocurrency.

Only when I trade it for £GBP (or another fiat currency) am I actually selling my coin.

[OngBonga]

I think there's some people who are making a fortune doing what I'm doing. I see huge sell orders appear, then disappear, and I suspect it's a whale who wants me to fuck off so he can have the market to himself. It's worth him breaking even for a while to squeeze me out. I'm a real problem for these guys because I'm taking 2% a time, and blocking them in the process. They are greedy and want 10%+, but I'm aggressively challenging them. With me around, and others challenging me, the market quickly goes from 10% gains to 2%. I won't let people have it easy.

It's really quite fun.

Only made 1m today (around $30), it's been tough. Long periods where there's just no profit, and when I have been able to trade it's not much profit.

[OngBonga]

I do wonder if any of you guys have found this market, or if these posts are being read. Don't really give a fuck. I hope they know how much fun I'm having making $30 so they can't make $100s.

[Poopadoop]

You're missing the point. I can't buy a house with bongcoins, I have to "dispose" of them by trading them for fiat, only then can I buy a house. There's where they should be taxing.

The point remains, if I trade 1 bongcoin for 10 spliffcoins, the value of 1 bongcoin at the instant of that transaction is 10 spliffcoins, it was my transaction that determined the value. That's zero profit, because I traded two assets of equal value.

This (if it's true, and I doubt it is) only works as long as you always hold all your assets in coins. As soon as you buy something with them, or convert them into fiat to buy something, then you'll have to admit you've made money.

I hope you're right, because that reduces my tax burden. CGT is less. But I'm sorry but your word on this isn't enough, I'll need to take advice to make sure I'm paying the right kind of tax.

CG is what you gain from investments. Income is money you earn from a job, etc.. It's not all that complicated, google it.

What keith posts implies differently.

If you're audited they might do that. But to audit you they'd have to have a suspicion, like suddenly you're driving a bentley and living in Belgravia, while paying £30 in CGT. Otherwise I doubt they will.

I hope it's this simple. But when it comes to crypto, there's debate on what "profit" is. I'm arguing it's what gets turned from crypto into fiat. keith is arguing that it's the profit per transaction, which I believe is zero. This is why it's not very simple.

Could be that your profit isn't measured until you convert it back into fiat, but I doubt it, and it's kind of irrelevant in the long run. Either way you can't spend it without paying tax.

Like, say you buy some gold bars at a rock bottom price. A year later they're worth twice as much. Do you get taxed on the increase in value? I suspect you do, but even if you don't, at some point you will sell them again (convert into fiat), and you'll be taxed on the profit.

[Poopadoop]

I do wonder if any of you guys have found this market, or if these posts are being read. Don't really give a fuck. I hope they know how much fun I'm having making $30 so they can't make $100s.

An electrician came by my house the other day to do an inspection. He was really into it, explaining all about circuits and wattage and which lights were most energy efficient and so on. After about 30 sec my eyes glazed over and I tuned him out.

That's pretty much the same that happens when I see someone posting details about trading in crypto, sell orders, buy orders, whales, etc..

[Keith]

Ong ......this may sound like an asshole and i get you're having fun .......its like dicking around on 2nl where you know you have the other guys outclassed ........


But don't lose sight of the end goal.

You want to get off benefits doing something you enjoy and a house of your own . You arent going to get that by dick waving contests cutting the profits out of any trade ......if theres no upside and a lot of downside risk you are getting into some seriously wealth challenging water.

you made 30$ doing that , i'm now up $1500 on the value i posted this afternoon. you are now sat on a bad table ....move tables and churn some other coins instead


USDT is a stable currency worth $1 so you know the value of the trades that you are making. if you trade it into another crypto the selling price is the $ or £ value of the BTC or shitcoin at the time of the transaction and the transaction history will usually give you that fiat value. HMRC will website has a monthly conversion rate that you can use for converting $ values back to £ .

[OngBonga]

This (if it's true, and I doubt it is) only works as long as you always hold all your assets in coins. As soon as you buy something with them, or convert them into fiat to buy something, then you'll have to admit you've made money.

Indeed. But I'm not doing this, it stays as crypto until the day comes it goes into my bank. I'm not trying to avoid tax, I'm just obviously reluctant to be taxed twice for the same asset.

CG is what you gain from investments. Income is money you earn from a job, etc.. It's not all that complicated, google it.

I know. However, trading and investing are different things. If I'm spending my day trading, that's a job.

If you're audited they might do that. But to audit you they'd have to have a suspicion, like suddenly you're driving a bentley and living in Belgravia, while paying £30 in CGT. Otherwise I doubt they will.

Like I say, this isn't me trying to avoid tax. I'm just keen to keep it simple, and pay a fair amount. If I'm driving a Bentley, rest assured the taxman has 20% of my fiat profits at least.

Like, say you buy some gold bars at a rock bottom price. A year later they're worth twice as much. Do you get taxed on the increase in value? I suspect you do, but even if you don't, at some point you will sell them again (convert into fiat), and you'll be taxed on the profit.

The govt can't be taxing gold. By that, I mean, if the value doubles, the taxman can't expect to get a slice until that profit is realised, by liquidation. They're taxing the fiat.

If your house goes up in value, you don't owe the taxman anything. Not until you sell the house.

[Keith]

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/...e-since-launch


This is important shit that you should consider as well .

USDT only have 3% liquid cash reserves from their own figures and a lot of the assets backing up the $ value are crypto assets.

You may say ...so what ...... the problem is that there will come a bigcrash at the end of the bull market and people will then want to cash out their cryptoto USDT and will then probably want to cash it back out to their banks. Normally they get away with having such low liquid assets , but on a market crash/end of bull market and lots of people wanting to cash out their crypto back to fiat , the crypto assets propping up the reserves have now crashed in value and and tether may not be able to honour the $1 price which means that the fiat value of that USDT may crash to a % of 1$ and once it starts falling their will be a cascade effect /run on the bank with everyoine wanting to get their cash out while they can.


on kraken i'm selling back into USD and on binance it looks like i'll be selling into BUSD instead.

Binance is really clunky to use though i think with the benefit being lower fees .

[OngBonga]

Keith, I appreciate your point, however my goal right now is to basically build a roll. I'm playing 2nl crypto right now. That's where I am.

There's not really a downside to this, not unless I make trades that come at a loss. Or if the coin collapses entirely leaving me with a big fat bag of fuck all.

you made 30$ doing that , i'm now up $1500 on the value i posted this afternoon. you are now sat on a bad table ....move tables and churn some other coins instead

I'm up $600+ on the week. Today is just a slow day. This is as bad as it gets really. I can't lose, I can only make a small amount instead of a decent amount.

You're doing so much better because you're not playing 2nl like me, you're big cheese stakes.

USDT is a stable currency worth $1 so you know the value of the trades that you are making.

Sure, but $USDT is a cryptocurrency. It is not fiat. It's just pegged to fiat.

[OngBonga]

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/...e-since-launch


This is important shit that you should consider as well .

USDT only have 3% liquid cash reserves from their own figures and a lot of the assets backing up the $ value are crypto assets.

You may say ...so what ...... the problem is that there will come a bigcrash at the end of the bull market and people will then want to cash out their cryptoto USDT and will then probably want to cash it back out to their banks. Normally they get away with having such low liquid assets , but on a market crash/end of bull market and lots of people wanting to cash out their crypto back to fiat , the crypto assets propping up the reserves have now crashed in value and and tether may not be able to honour the $1 price which means that the fiat value of that USDT may crash to a % of 1$ and once it starts falling their will be a cascade effect /run on the bank with everyoine wanting to get their cash out while they can.


on kraken i'm selling back into USD and on binance it looks like i'll be selling into BUSD instead.

Binance is really clunky to use though i think with the benefit being lower fees .

This is interesting. I was under the impression that $USDT was backed dollar for dollar. I'll have to investigate this. It's a bit late for reading now, I'll look into this tomorrow.

[Poopadoop]

However, trading and investing are different things. If I'm spending my day trading, that's a job.

Only if you're doing it with someone else's money.

[OngBonga]

I'm seeing a new whale tactic. It's quite amusing. Some guy is spamming the buy order column with relentless $5 orders of different values. There's also a huge $4k order in there. This is someone responding to my aggression. It's hilarious.

[OngBonga]

Only if you're doing it with someone else's money.

I don't think this is the case. It's a grey area, as those legal cases Keith posted suggest. The courts might have to decide if what you're doing is trading, investing, or speculating. As an individual, I think I'd be speculating, but I'd want professional advice on this when the time comes.

[OngBonga]

This is definitely someone trying to piss me off. But I KNOW he doesn't want to spend $4k on safesun. Dickhead.

[OngBonga]

I really hope whoever that is has found this thread.

[Keith]

Capture.jpg

This is one thing i love about Kraken bought and sold the crypto less than 2 hours later for a nice 6% profit while i was asleep but equally applies through the day . You dont have to be constantly scanning the history to see if you bought /sold to set up the next trade. You can then edit the conditional trade once it becomes the main trade when the first trade has gone through to add the conditional buy/sell to it .

[Keith]

Here's the thing. If I "dispose" of a "token" by trading it for another coin, including $USDT, at the time of the transaction, the "gain or loss" is precisely zero. One bitcoin is worth, say $50k. All I'm doing is trading one item for something else of equal value. Zero profit.

Selling tokens for money is the "final transaction" i was talking of earlier, where you said tax isn't due on withdrawals. Based on what you just posted, yes tax is due on withdrawals, as that amounts to a "disposal".

Profit is coming from appreciation in value. In my case, it's a microappreciation measured in seconds or minutes. I'm buying, then selling at profit, then spending the profit on more coins, then selling, rinse and repeat. These are all transactions where, at the precise time of trade, I am exchanging one asset for something of exactly the same value. If that value changes a few seconds later, that's irrelevant. I'm exploiting that short term differential. But I'm not making "profit" on any one transaction. I'm always breaking even. The profit comes from appreciation, and that profit is only realised when I convert crypto into fiat.

this is the basis of the error you are making .

the profit on a trade is not the difference between what you sell an item for and what you buy the next item for .

the profit on the trade is the difference between what you paid to buy the asset and what you received when you sold the asset.

when you buy a new assets with the proceeds you are setting up a new trade with a new profit/loss when you sell that asset.

your profits are the sum of all the profits for all of the completed trades you have done.

the good news for you though is that the tax year runs april 6 to april 5. if you send in the tax form you have to send it in by sep 30 or if you do it online (usually by an accountant) it has to be in by Jan31st the following year. the online form will give you a printout of how much you have to pay which they have to receive by Jan 31st otherwise they will charge you daily interest on the tax owed.You'll then also be told if you have to make a down payment on the following years tax by july 31st.

[Keith]

Capture.JPG

ADA pumping this morning ....this is just the exodus wallet which is 93%+ ADA

[CoccoBill]

your profits are the sum of all the profits for all of the completed trades you have done.

Same here. You pay tax from all of your profitable transactions, not just for some end-of-the-year total. However, the losses at least here are deductible from your CG taxes, I'd assume that's the same there?

[Keith]

yep, well sum of all profits on disposals in the tax year less your free annual CGT allowance

[OngBonga]

I didn't get round to reading that tether thing but it doesn't really matter, I use tether but I don't sleep on funds in tether.

keith you might like my change in strategy. Assuming my current buy order fills (likely), I'm up to 28m. I'm now kind of one of the big stacks. There's still obviously 100m+ folk, but I've stepped up. I now know I can't go putting 10m orders in aggressively because shorts will obviously challenge me, and if profits are squeezed it's hurting me more than him. So I've started being more passive, instead I'll sell my coins just before a wall of resistance, and then load up in front of support. The current wall of resistance is pretty huge, so chances are good that I'll buy back in. If not I have 10m and the tether will go into $BNB probably.

It's much calmer. It was fun being a small stack and being an asshole, but I was merely building a stack. Now It's a different game.

[boost]

Ong, get in the discord

[OngBonga]

You guys are actually using it? Fine.

[Keith]

if anyone else wants access drop me a dm

[CoccoBill]

How y'all doing?

[boost]

it hurts

everything hurts

[CoccoBill]

Wallet went from +200% to +40% in less than a week, but I'm hodling like a pro.

[OngBonga]

I've bought 0.66 $BNB @$360. I tried to make money in safesun, I had a really nice opportunity but some guy ruined it for me. The price was around 1000 but there was such little support I could sell a relatively small amount of coins to crash the coin, which I did, to 200. I crashed the coin 80% with one trade. No fucking shit. But before I could buy coins at rock bottom price, someone put up a wall of support. What an asshole. I'm waiting on a buy order to fill, if that succeeds then I'm breaking even, with money banked into $BNB.

1.66 $BNB (currently worth around $680 but it's rock bottom price)
5m safesun ($70, should pump around 100% when it recovers but not worth risking my BNB for)
$35 USDT

That's where I'm at from an initial investment of $10, which bought me just over 500k safesun

[OngBonga]

I don't understand why when the price goes down to 200, someone puts a huge buy order in at around 800. Why would you try to buy coins at a much higher price than you can? Whoever that was definitely wasn't trying to make as much money as possible, they were trying to stop the price of the coin crashing further. Or trying to stop me making a fuck ton of money, but it costs him an order of magnitude more to stop me. idk, but it was interesting. I can't believe I was actually able to crash the price of a coin by 80% with a tiny trade worth $50-odd.

[Poopadoop]

It's probably Elon Musk. It's not about money to some people, it's about power.

[OngBonga]

Everything in crypto is Elon Musk.

[Poopadoop]

It would be funny if he was the puppet master of the whole crytpo thing and making billions off it, and you guys are just like those little fish that feed off the fin of the shark.

[OngBonga]

I'm in no doubt the guy is making a huge amount of money by playing off crypto. Why else would a supposedly smart guy like him jump on the "bitcoin is dirty energy" bandwagon? He knows it's still orders of magnitude cleaner than banking and gold mining. He knows the dollar is pegged to oil. It's a stupid argument. So I'm left assuming he's using his massive influence to influence the markets.

[MadMojoMonkey]

"Bitcoin is dirty energy" is an odd turn of phrase.
IDK what an expanded explanation of his meaning would reveal, but in a vacuum, that's just a weird sentence.

Assuming by "dirty" he means pollution, Bitcoin is only as dirty as the grid producing the energy.
It's not bitcoin that's dirty... it's the energy grid that's dirty.

[OngBonga]

Not the best language, but it refers to its carbon footprint. The problem is that mining bitcoin takes computer processing energy, and if that energy is non-renewable, it's dirty. Bitcoin mining is dominated by China, which uses mainly hydroelectricity during the rainy season and coal the rest of the year.

Of course, you're right, it's not bitcoin itself that is dirty, it's the grid. But the incentive is there to use fossil fuels to mine bitcoin, as it's the most efficient in terms of cost/reward ratio, and time.

But to reject bitcoin on the basis of being "dirty", it's stupid because fiat and gold is so much dirtier, in terms of energy demands... gold needs digging out of the ground, so does the metal we make coins from, notes are now plastic, money needs security and transporting, banks need heating, and staff which have to travel to and from work, their executives travel the world, fiat is absolutely fucking filthy compared to bitcoin.

[OngBonga]

The common comparison has become Argentina. That's how much energy bitcoin uses. The same as Argentina.

Of course, that little nugget rarely comes with any kind of context. Year on year? Is bitcoin getting better or worse? When articles mention Argentina, they don't go into detail about how much energy banks use compared to any given country. It's clear there's a media campaign to cause a loss in confidence in bitcoin. The price has crashed the last few days, if you knew this was coming you'd make a lot of money. More so if you knew when the markets will turn positive again.

There's a lot of deceit going on when it comes to these kind of things. People have agendas, and rarely is that agenda the greater benefit of the planet.

[Poopadoop]

Nice try, Elon.

[CoccoBill]

Which stablecoins you guys using? I figured out I can use a deemed acquisition cost for taxation purposes, so trading is actually on the table.

[Keith]

advantage of kraken is that you can buy and sell back into USD or GBP or € which avoids any funding issues with stable coins.i.e USDT only has 3% cash reserves with much of the backing being other cryptos which causes its own problem that when everyone wants to cash out at the end of the bull run the reserves will have crashed in fiat value at the point when everyone will be wanting to cash out back to fiat.

[oskar]

Nice try, Elon.

You could probably make decent money if you simply buy whenever this guy mentions crypto, and sell 24h later.

[OngBonga]

Which stablecoins you guys using? I figured out I can use a deemed acquisition cost for taxation purposes, so trading is actually on the table.

I use tether USDT but I don't keep funds there, and it's only a matter of convenience. My crypto money is pretty much always either in a coin, or locked in order. I'd only be holding tether if I knew the markets were going to crash, and even then I'd be holding until I bought the dip rather than cashing anything out. idk about the 3% reserves problem that keith mentioned, it's beyond my grasp when we consider the liquidity is tied to non-stable coins too, but so long as everyone doesn't try to cash out their tether at the same time it shouldn't even be a problem. I think most people just hold the bulk of their tether for the purpose of trading at a later date.

[Keith]

I use tether USDT but I don't keep funds there, and it's only a matter of convenience.

Which is fine most of the time

My crypto money is pretty much always either in a coin, or locked in order. I'd only be holding tether if I knew the markets were going to crash,

This is where the problem starts to come in , by the time you get to know that the market is going to crash you will be creating huge demand along with everyone else who is selling expecting the crash as well. It's also likely that you wont get time to sell high.....i.e like last weeks dip .....did you sell at the peak and /or buy at the bottom ?

and even then I'd be holding until I bought the dip rather than cashing anything out.

When will you buy though ? What happens if its the end of the bull market and prices keep going down ?

idk about the 3% reserves problem that keith mentioned, it's beyond my grasp when we consider the liquidity is tied to non-stable coins too, but so long as everyone doesn't try to cash out their tether at the same time it shouldn't even be a problem. I think most people just hold the bulk of their tether for the purpose of trading at a later date.

this is the huge problem with that line of thinking .....

At the end of the bull market people will buy the dip , prices will bounce and peak lower but then crash lower and rinse and repeat. People will then stop buying the dip which will prevent the rallies and prices will keep going lower .

That is the stage where people will want to withdraw what they have left in crypto which will become a feedback loop , so that cash is removed from tether, tether has to realise the fiat currency to cash them out by selling their crypto holdings that have now reduced in value which puts further pressure on prices until they get into full tilt territory where people are asking to withdraw to fiat and they have no quickly realisable assets to pay the withdrawals.

Withdrawal times will become extended , this will be reported in the news channels and there will then be the bank run on tether with everyone trying to cash in there tether at the same time , i.e like happened in greece when they got into trouble and the rest of the central banks in europe put harsh limits on national spending in exchange for a bail out loan .


Saying you'll only worry about it when there's a crash is the time when its too late to do anything about it. Once the liquidity problems show up the tether will no longer be backed 1:1 for usd so it will no longer be a stable coin and the price of it will crash along with the value of the crypto that is forming the basis of its realisable assets. This will also impact your ability to buy at the bottom of the market with tether usdt as the usdt will only be worth a fraction of 1$ instead of 1$

[OngBonga]

did you sell at the peak and /or buy at the bottom ?

No, I didn't sell at all. As far as I'm concerned, I lost and gained nothing from assets I held. The markets will get to where they were sooner or later, if it takes weeks or years. It's looking ok out there right now.

The only trading I was doing was with safesun, with profits going into BNB. If I knew the markets were going to crash, of course I'd want my assets in a stable coin, but I don't know that and I can't know that.

this is the huge problem with that line of thinking .....

Like I say, I don't hold tether. It's a tiny risk to me. If it does collapse, then I'll use a different market pair. I guess if I have high confidence another crash is coming, I should sell up and trade my tether for an alternative stable coin to avoid the problems you describe, but it's unlikely I'll have enough confidence in major market moves for me to take that risk in the first place.

Tether really is just a coin I use for trading.

[Keith]

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Bought Kusama as the market was dropping yesterday @£273 , thought i hit the bottom and then it dropped again. woke up to Kusama announcing that the parachain auctions had started . This involves people pledging KSM tokens that if the project you back , those KSM tokens are locked up for the duration of the parachain lease. this will remove coins from the circulating supply in the short term and people wanting to get involved will also have to buy KSM creating buying pressure . the coins i bought yesterday are currently being staked for 12% on kusama . if I participate in the parachain auction pledge I get tokens from those projects if tyhey are succesful.

the downside is that the KSM would be olocked in for 10+,months by which time we could be in the middle of a bear market and the KSM value could have crashed along with the tokens from the auctions.


Key point for anyone watching though is that similar auctions will occur later in the year for DOT as well so buying DOT now could get you similar price action and it can be staked while you wait . DOT is also ~50% of its recent highs as well

[OngBonga]

My safesun balance increased by nearly 2% as a result of the rewards. It's my first credit but it appears to be a monthly thing. 2% a month is insane for a passive income. It's a lot more than I expected. If it's a regular 2% a month, or anywhere near that figure, I expect this and any other "safe" coins with similar returns to become very appealing to investors.

If this coin goes 100x, and it mathematically can do so easily (fully diluted market cap currently a tiny £3.17m), with 2% a month I'll be looking at a passive income of $1k+ a month, assuming I don't sell my coins.

I didn't think these safe coins would generate such appealing returns. Safesun has recently been listed on another platform too, and volume has gone up massively, so that can only be a good thing.

It's not possible for me to scalp the coin anymore though, due to the new listing. I got to 50m coins though (currently $400 ish), with 1 BNB banked too. Not bad from ten bucks.

[Keith]

how to get some free crypto.


signup with coinbase (10$ of free BTC when you buy 100$ on the link on discord channel )

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click on earn rewards


watch the short videos and answer easy multi choice question from the video and get


$3 AMP
$3 the graph (GRT)
$10 stellar lumens (XLM)
$9 Compund (COMP)


verify ID and you can get $3 BOND


while the prices are down you get more free crypto since they are giving a $ value.


did this on friday night when bitcoin had dipped again and received £18.23 of crypto and now valued at £20.54

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[OngBonga]

Can't afford to load up $100, not this month and not next month. Got a holiday next month to pay for, and I've also promised to buy an amp and speakers off a friend. Maybe at the end of August!

[OngBonga]

I've suffered in this crash. My dent is now worth less than twice what I paid for it (peaked at 16x), my safesun is worth around a tenth of what it was, painful stuff. Obviously there's no point in selling now, that boat has long sailed. HODL and learn from it.

The markets will recover, whether it takes a month or a year. And they'll crash again, only next time I'll jump off before it's too late. Hopefully.

[Keith]

you don't need to buy anything now , just sign up at coinbase and do the mini quizs and get $25 of free crypto

[OngBonga]

Ok cool, will do it tomorrow now because bit pissed. Dunno if you heard but we BEAT THE FUCKING GERMANS.

[Keith]

prices dropped today so you will get more coins lol

[Keith]

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lol im rich off the free crypto ........18->25 mainly the comp doubling in a week

[daven]

so a guy i vaguely know just bought a tesla which he's driving around the streets of wellington after liquidating half of his bitcoin, all off the back of spending six months in a dark room trading crypto from a four figure starting stake. So here I am, reading through this thread... My impression of him is that he just got lucky on timing, hard to tell though

appropriate reading given that i've decided to become unemployed from 30 September? who knows.

Last time I quit a great job was 2009 to move to europe and play poker. Worked out fine, until near the end when things got tight. Bought a house along the way though, and that's tripled in value so i guess it all paid off.

This time I don't really have much of a plan. Take a break until it's time to work again, travel some perhaps. So, yeah, reading about crypto trading lol

[OngBonga]

I still haven't bought a house.

[oskar]

so a guy i vaguely know just bought a tesla which he's driving around the streets of wellington after liquidating half of his bitcoin, all off the back of spending six months in a dark room trading crypto from a four figure starting stake. So here I am, reading through this thread... My impression of him is that he just got lucky on timing, hard to tell though

appropriate reading given that i've decided to become unemployed from 30 September? who knows.

Last time I quit a great job was 2009 to move to europe and play poker. Worked out fine, until near the end when things got tight. Bought a house along the way though, and that's tripled in value so i guess it all paid off.

This time I don't really have much of a plan. Take a break until it's time to work again, travel some perhaps. So, yeah, reading about crypto trading lol

It's hard to tell what someone is doing right or wrong when all crypto goes up for 6 months straight. I want to hear from the people who didn't lose money in the past two months trading crypto. They might be on to something.
I find it really difficult to believe that there are legitimate strategies to be found in a market that's in a bubble the moment its value goes above zero. I understand that it's possible I'll eat my words in the not so distant future, but right now I really don't see the value beyond black market and tax evasion stuff, and that's going to get shut down hard the moment it gains any real traction.

[OngBonga]

I want to hear from the people who didn't lose money in the past two months trading crypto.

There are plenty of people making a lot of money right now. Bitcoin is fluctuating between certain values, and people are exploiting this. It keeps hitting 30k, because people are buying back at this price. How much to sell for is a different matter, but if you're selling at 33k and buying at 30k you're doing fine.

I'm not a trader, I'm a holder. I think I'm missing opportunities but I don't want to take risks when I'm pretty confident that there will be new all time highs in the future. I'm happy with a passive income.

but right now I really don't see the value beyond black market and tax evasion stuff, and that's going to get shut down hard the moment it gains any real traction.

It's protection from hyperinflation of fiat, too. If the dollar shits the bed, money will pour into crypto (and gold). And of course there will be real world use in the future. It's already a means of exchanging money across borders without any hassle. Of course you don't need 8000 coins to do this, but many coins will all have real world functions.

What use does gold have as a commodity? Crypto is basically digital gold, only a lot more volatile.

[Poopadoop]

I think the same reasons it's a hassle to transfer fiat internationally are going to apply to crypto if/when it becomes widely used:

1. To stop money laundering, and other shady dealings.

2. To levy a tax.

[OngBonga]

It's not as simple as that. The governments will go after the exchanges who keep records but you don't need an exchange to trade crypto. They're only scratching the surface, and only taxing those who don't have large tax liabilities and therefore have no serious incentive to avoid it.

It will be interesting to see how governments around the world try to combat crypto.

[Poopadoop]

Wasn't it China cracking down on crytpo that caused the last crash? They certainly seemed to coincide.

[OngBonga]

It's possible, though certainly not a given. I don't think anyone is able to say with certainty what caused the recent crash, other than to say supply outweighed demand. I suspect there was big business manipulation, which China happily played its role in, and frankly I kinda hope so because that means the price will rise again when the big players stop selling and start buying back at reduced prices. They don't appear to have done so yet, perhaps trading the ranges for the time being before going all in for the next bull market. idk, but when this much money is being lost by amateur traders, you can assume that sharks are playing a different game.

[oskar]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/19/mala...ning-rigs.html

Someone could have played Cyberpunk on that hardware.

[Keith]

nope, they all look like asics which can only do one thing



we're pumping again guys

[OngBonga]

I predicted safesun would "explode" after a +25% pump and it went another +50% an hour later. Volume has increased by an order of magnitude. Money is definitely trickling back into altcoins.

I'm glad I didn't bail on any of my coins, but next time I want to see the warning signs before it crashes. I'd like to look back at this as a time I learned.

I peaked at around $4k. Currently worth around $800. Let's see how long it takes to get back to where we were.

[OngBonga]

The prediction was based on there being a mere $700 resistance stopping an 80% pump, at a time when the markets were pumping. I was personally unwilling to put more money into the coin, I already have enough and frankly I was concerned the coin was going to be a victim of the crash and never recover. Seeing $1k volume over 24 hours was painful. But it's already back to $10k, so I'm a bit more confident that this money won't be written off.

[OngBonga]

It's fun competing against bots to buy crypto. Bots have weaknesses, the key is to figure out how to beat it. One bot I'm currently battling doesn't check if it's at the front of the queue. So, you first put an order in front of it. So then it removes its order, and as soon as it does that, you cancel your order and quickly put a new order in at the next price. If you're quicker than the bot (surprisingly I am) you get at the front of the queue and it doesn't cancel its order.

In the past I've made a dollar or two from a bot by driving its buy price up, selling to it, then driving its sell price down, and buying from it. There's risk here though because you're leaving orders up for a few seconds which are not good prices. Not worth it for a dollar or two, but fun to make a bot lose money.

[Keith]

Back in profit now ...woo hooo

interesting coin is Kava which is now up 50% over the dip buying price and i've got it staked at 20% APY

[OngBonga]

I've ditched my dent and naturally it's pumped pretty hard. I spread it out between ETH (also pumping hard), LINK (small profit) and LUNA (small profit). I might come back into dent if I can find a way to do it profitably. Certainly the ETH is keeping pace, and I can't see dent maintaining this.

Also ditched the safesun, though I'm in the process of partially buying back in at profit. That money got spread between more LINK, and some VET, which has also pumped hard.

[Keith]

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oh ....its nice to have these sorts of days back again , thats just the exodus wallet thats mainly ADA and also have some on kraken as well, which pumped yesterday on the news that the alonzo hardfork date is being announced on friday and likely to be before the ADA conference in september . This is when smart contracts go live on ADA and ada will compete with ETH for DEFI etc

exodus wallet is also underrepresenting those gains as i have it staked now and have another 38 ADA ion rewards to claim that arent included in those figures until its claimed.