I need FTR's Help

[zarry]

Alright, FTR'ers ever since stumbling on this site over a year ago it has become a second home to me. I am 18 in college up at SUNY Albany and for a job this summer I want to play poker. The money I am currently making monthly will suffice for a summer job and infact be way much more then I could possibly recieve doing another Full Time job working construction(my old job) or anything I could get for that matter. My parents dont approve of me playing but when im in college they cant do shit to me so I currently play as a part time job/build br but now comes the summer...

So heres the deal, my parents say I cannot live in the house without a job this summer. They do not consider poker a job, but are giving me a chance to explain it and myself and the situation to them over spring break and try and convince them. The fact is I am doubtfull this will work because my dad is very hard headed so well see. Basically I am asking you for your help, he has given me the points which he sees the problem with doing this for a job this summer. I plan to counter argue every point and have already started doing some research ect...

Here are my parents reasons

-Its Illegal - Does someone know of documentation that can prove this wrong because the fact is I know its not illegal for an 18 year old to play online poker if it is located off shore.


-Sedintary - I am a larger kid then avg wide sholders and have always been bulky, My parents have always been on top of me and I complain but again am thankful because It has keepen me dramatically skinnier then I could imagine without them nagging. So anyway I cant argue this much because the fact is I will be sitting in a chair, but I am offering to get a gym membership for the summer and go at least once a day 6 days a week just to shut them up.

-Gain Social Skills - This makes me laugh, I have many friends I hang out with every day at school, I have many friends at home that I hang out with every night over vacations and most likely a majority of the nights this summer, my father says that he still is learning social skills now at his office and that not working with other people I will not develop proper social skills. I think thats a joke but anything I could use to argue this point?

-Guarenteed Revenue - This is easy and vcq has already helped me, thanks buddy , My father is a comp sci major, so I am going to explain the concept of EV, and pot odds, and use pokerstove to create hands and show him even if im underdog to win if I play according to pot odds and make +EV moves over the long run it is a profitable game. The fact about guarenteed revenue is a little valid in the sense that there is variance and I can take a huge swing, that is why my goal is a 3k Br this summer which will be suffecient for the 25 2 table turbos on stars. It is give or take 120 buyins, and of course if I take a huge hit I will drop to the 15's. I think with this kind of BR for the buyins I am playing and the money I need to live this summer even if I lose half my stack 1.5k-2k for the summer is very suffecient if I cashed my BR so I could live.


-SCHOOL GRADES... - This point just pisses me off. I told him my goal is to play professionally when I have the experience and BR and means to support myself. He wants me to finish college before I attempt this but said he would support me. The fact is this summer I am not in school so school grades are not relevant in this arguement.


Alright FTR'ers to anyone who helps I would be very gratefull. The fact is if I cannot convince my parents I will be living either with a buddy or my cousin this summer and playing poker, but I rather not burn that bridge with my father especially in something this simple.

PLEASE and Thanks

[flomo]

Your parents missed the tax issue. Did you claim your earnings on your taxes or their taxes? If you are borrowing federal money for school, you might not want messing with the tax man.

School is more important than poker.
Personally i think you should do both school and poker. also be less sedintary

You shouldn't listen to me, I joined the circus.

[Lukie]

just molotov his car and be done with it

[drmcboy]

get the job. finish school. If you have a good enough roll to play poker full time at that point, hooray. If it turns out you suck, or hate poker, you'll be glad.

If you lose half your stack and then cash out the other half, your roll is gone, that sucks.

[geoffm33]

Go the gym for yourself, not so much for them. You don't need to do it 6-days a week either. just make a point to go 3 times during the week and one day on the weekend. That's how I do it (or atleast that's my plan, doing it's a different story!!). So do as I say, not as I do

As for guaranteed income, long term is a good example of how poker can be cash-flow positive, but summertime != long term.

Can you compromise and do both? Part time and poker?

[gabe]

why not just get a part time job? i was in your same situation last summer and thats what i did.

[Lukie]

-Its Illegal - Does someone know of documentation that can prove this wrong because the fact is I know its not illegal for an 18 year old to play online poker if it is located off shore.

Might wanna recheck this or find a way around it somehow. It's my understanding that the wire act (might not even be that one, the law that prohibits you from placing wagers over the phone) THEORETICALLY outlaws all forms of online gambling in the U.S., although nobody has ever been prosecuted. However, I do believe all local gambling laws apply anyway. So for example if you were 18 and living in Las Vegas, you would be breaking Nevada state law by playing online poker. Nobody really gives a shit about either of these though, and I could be wrong about both. Probably not though.

Guarenteed Revenue....

unfortunately poker is a game where you don't know what everyone else's hold cards are....

SCHOOL GRADES

sad to say this but I think these are more important then your poker career at this stage.

We've talked about this on AIM a lot and I still think that your best bet is to try to manage both.. going to school and actually putting forth some effort while you learn the game, get better, and build your bankroll. Keeping all options open at this extremely early stage of your serious poker playing days is probably a good thing.

[biondino]

I hope you can explain +EV etc. to your dad successfully - I've found it almost impossible to explain it to mine! However, I am a grown thirtysomething and he can disapprove all he likes.

As for the other factors:

Are you a loner? do you have trouble socialising, meeting girls/boys (delete as applicable), etc.? I suspect that if this is the case, forcing yourself into social situation isn't going to help a great deal, and if you're well-adjusted etc. etc, it doesn't even matter.

As for the exercise, make it explicit that you are more than happy to do a deal on this, as you have already stated - promise to go to the gym, or even better, join a football/soccer/whatever team and get exercise and social stiumlation in one healthy package. He will, I hope, understand that you are willing to make allowances for his way of thinking.

It's not illegal, not at the moment. IF the powers that be, god forbid, launch a test case against a US-based poker player, and win, then you might have to concede. Until this happens, you should be fine.

School - this is where I disagree with you the most. You should ABSOLUTELY get a proper, full education to which you give all the necessary time. The likelihood of poker working out as a career for you, or for anyone, is very small. It isn't just sensible to have a backup plan, it's essential. Your dad has been very good saying he'll support you, but I suspect he will appreciate you giving in on this area most of all.

Think of it this way - say you're in school for 4 more years. During this time you keep the poker up (though not to the detriment of your studies or social skills) and you become a better player, making a decent amount of pocket money in the meantime. Once you finish, if you STILL want to be a pro (and there's no guarantee you will - in my 12 months on FTR I've seen several previously addicted and excellent poker players quit, cut down or go back to hobbyist status), then you will have a vital few years more experience which will stand you in very good stead.

You sound very lucky to have parents who are willing to listen. Work with them on this; try to understand their points of view, and bear in mind that, whatever you feel about it now, they are more experienced in the ins and outs of regular, every day life than you are, and they have your best interests at heart. Don't rush into anything - it IS possible to be sociable, fit, successful at school and a good, winning poker player who has enough time to play. You're young, you should have the energy and the drive to fit all this in your life and more.

[Warpe]

As a father of university age kids, I'm gonna chime in and vote for the summer job. Play poker in your off hours - and working construction is a great way to get into shape. Beats the hell out of working out, and you're getting paid for it. Not what you wanted to hear, I know.

If you're really set on it, then find a compromise - part-time job/poker. Poker full-time? If you were my kid, you'd better be showing me some solid Pokertracker stats that show a long term solid win rate, and a big enough bankroll to ride the swings, and even then I'd be a tough sell.

[biondino]

Just a thought about the summer job - why not try and get a job for a couple of days a week to both give your dad what he wants, give you a bit of a financial buffer, and to take the pressure off your poker career for a bit? That way you'll always be hungry to play and it won't feel so much of a grind; and it gives you a backup in case one of those inevitable downswings comes at a time when you'd least like it to.

The worst thing in the world would be to have to tell your dad that you've spent the summer sitting in a darkened room for 8 hours a day LOSING money.

[biondino]

Sorry for all the crossposts, but I guess repeating the same thing in slightly different words can only add weight to our argument.

Now, who's going to come on the thread and say "screw dad, 8-table $2000NL and get some wicked shit to smoke dude"?

[chardrian]

If you really want to show that poker is going to be profitable, you need to show hard data that you have been making a consistent profit.

In the end though - just get a part time job. The really juicy hours of poker playing is late at night anyways when you get the drunk fish at your tables.

[eeeee]

Your parents are geniuses. They love you and are suprisingly correct in many areas. They are also willing to let you make your case - very cool.

-Its Illegal - It actually might be in your state -- some states are 21 and up. Online gaming is questionable legally, but the laws aren't enforced because of conflicting treaties and such. You parents may not be RIGHT, but they are definitely not WRONG. Also, many online poker rooms and casinos set the age at 21 instead of 18 -- do you know which are which?

Oh, BTW, what are you gonna put on your resume when you want to start working out of college for more than $10/hr?

-Sedintary - Damn, I'm fat. But I have a wife. What about you, Chunky?

-Gain Social Skills - Teen-agers think social skills involve hanging out with their firends and not fearing hitting on chicks. Social skills also involve superiors and inferiors (teachers, bosses, supervision, coworker). The smooth handling of other people, whether you like them or not, is where social skills come into play.

-Guarenteed Revenue - You can be a break even poker player and make $1500 a month while holding a full time job, just by hunting bonuses. But if you have to remove a set amount monthly, before your bankroll is substantial, this is very stressfull. Ask AOK about removing BR monthly -- it's tough to HAVE to win -- makes you play different. Your expenses won't be that high as a student. But I'd say you should roll up $5K, at least, before summer, and then show your folks.

-SCHOOL GRADES... - If your sick about gaming, this is a real issue. If your not sick, you can at least see that your parents would be concerned about you making good decisions about your time?


I know you can do it.
I wouldn't put that much effort into convincing them now. Show them a roll, then you all will know you can do it, and the finer points will be less of an issue. Don't show them a roll? Go get a job.

It's not just about the way you play poker. It's about the way you make decisions and spend money. If you make a roll and then spend it on shiny junk and fast food and entertainment, then I'm with your parents. If you quietly accumulate money, take care of real-life business, think of others, contribute to your home and relationships, then I'm with you.

[a500lbgorilla]

The answer is easy. Get a part time job, takes stress off of you from a variance and parental standpoint.

[zarry]

Thanks for all the replies guys and I have looked over what many have you said and here is what I can say...

Legality - I play on PS which is 18 and I live in NY... oo and I do many other illegal things that have far more worse consequences then poker online...

Sedintary- I dont see it being much of an issue since I will be willing to compromise on them with this...

My goal for BR by summer was 3k, since my expenses living at home are very little which is basically eating and hanging out/gas, I dont have to pay rent. I dont plan to spend more then 1.5k this summer if even that. I figured with 3k BR even if worst case scenerio playing the 25 2 table turbos on stars i lost 60 straight buyins I still would have 1.5k worst comes to worst to slowly cash out as I need ect... I also will have 400$ as extra backup saved goin into the summer.

I can completely understand social skills aspect but you have to understand, I have worked since I was 14. I have worked as a painter, and then when I was 17 I started construction, I have experience with bosses and co-workers ect... I am not a loner I have many friends and actually prefer being in the center of a crowd the majority of the time. I still go to school so I gain social skills with teachers in that respect as well as the buisness I am running here at school. ( which my parents dont know about and cant know about)

I can completely understand grades just another thing that every parent wants for their kids. The fact is I WANT to do good I really do just to get my parents off my back, but even how much they nag me and how much shit i take from them I still dont have the motivation to actually do all the work required for a 3.0+ I just do the required minimum to not get taken out of school by my parents. I know this is very immature but honestly I cant find the motivation to do it. I just cant.

Poker Numbers- I will also show him my numbers to prove I have been doing very well...

And everyone please understand me I have complete and utter respect for my parents, they have raised me better then anyone of my friends I know, they have instilled the right values and morals in me. Its just that it has always been his way or the highway and on this matter I am going to put my foot down and if he does not accept this I will be not living with my family this summer, this really a relationship I want to send to the rocks like this but I am 18 and if I dont stand up occasionally for myself I will be taking his orders my whole life basically. I am a very mature 18 year old, I have run 2 buisnesses online, I run a buisness at school, I have worked since I was 14 and have learned to take care of myself from a young age because I am the oldest of 6 children.

[drmcboy]

asking for advice, then completely ignoring it, does not add up to a mature anything. Also you call yourself immature two paragraphs up.

Acting like bending here will make you take his orders your whole life is silly. once you move out you can do whatever you want. His house, his rules. Also it sounds to me like they are paying for school - why SHOULDN'T they have a say? You should be grateful for their help. I'm sure they would let you make the rules if you started footing the bill.

It sounds to me like you're lazy and looking for an excuse not to work. That's fine, but don't come here looking for justification.

[metaxy6]

It doesn't really sound like "my way or the highway" when they've been gracious enough to allow you a chance to make your case and negotiate a compromise.
That sounds pretty f*in cool, all things considered.

2 other things:
Parents always have to balance being hardasses who alienate their kids vs. being pushovers who are either used or ignored. Allow them to feel like they're striking the best balance they can.

Maybe it would help to make an extra effort to show them that you understand their anxieties - which probably go beyond your weight, current sociability, bankroll, and even your grades. They likely have more to do with the long-term of playing poker for a living.

[Phantaroth]

compromise

Get a job for like 20 hours a week and play poker the rest

[zarry]

Actually I pay for half of the schooling and I also pay living expenses in school out of my pocket so I am paying for a majority of school. I find it very ignorant to say that I am lazy and dont want to work, because I have worked for 4 years of my life, and If you consider playing poker for 6+ hours a day not work then you probably have never done it.

I did not say I was immature I said an act was very immature. Also I am moved out and do pay for more then half of school and all living expenses so where do you draw the line... I only live with my family 2 months give or take of a year soo i consider that moved out. Sorry to be solely attacking your post but I actually found it offensive and it sounded very condecending.

As for the consensu most people say get a job part time and play poker the other part... I never really though about it so I guess its another option I could take.

[Lukie]

just molotov his car and be done with it

[Irisheyes]

just molotov his car and be done with it

Ok Lukie, I'll give you a lol if it makes you happy.

lol.

[Lukie]

just molotov his car and be done with it

Ok Lukie, I'll give you a lol if it makes you happy.

lol.

yes!!!!!

[dev]

My perspective on this might sound a bit odd, so I'm gonna give a little background.
I am 23, and I'll have a bachelors in 3 months. I've been out of my parent's house since I was 19, and I've worked a full time job about 2 months, part time job about 6 months in that time. I run a business fixing computers, building websites and writing software for growing small businesses. I have done some other things, but that basically was it until last summer.

Last summer is when I really started playing poker. I played a little bit online and a couple home games, but that summer I started finding bar tournaments and some pretty fat home games. I made my way through very easy games and slacked off on my other work. By late November my other businesses were barely 10% of my income.

School has been like background noise in my life. Now, what I should have had to fall back on isn't quite as good. I'm a talented programmer, but based on my GPA, I wont have as easy a time in the field as I should have.
I've always been a very stable person emotionally, until I started playing poker for a living. When you feel you're ready, you move up. I moved up, and did great for a month or so. Then I lost a significant portion of my roll over 3 days. That's not easy to deal with. My social life isn't even close to what it used to be, most of the people I hang out with are poker players, and when we hang out... we're playing poker or pool or gin or whatever.

Part of the reason I've chosen this way is that I was working at 14 myself. It's not right, the way people work in our culture. People do things they don't care about in order to get a paycheck that isn't worth their time and energy. I play poker because I love it, not having to work is a bonus.

Trying to make sense of it...
Poker as a professions requires a LOT more than 3k. Don't even attempt it with just 3k. I know your bills aren't much right now, but if it's a job, make it a job. Send yourself a paycheck every week/2 weeks/month/whatever. You said you make more playing poker than you would in construction. If that's true your roll has got to be more than 3k... did you spend a lot of it? I'm not the most experienced person here, but experience has spoken, and it says that 3k isn't enough to handle any kind of major swing. Even if it's enough of a roll, YOU don't want to experience that. If you're doing it for a living, it IS going to happen.

If your heart's set on it, do it, but be realistic about it. Pay yourself a set amount every week. Send yourself a check and show it to your parents. Pay yourself what you'd make at a job or a little more.

I think the arguements with your parents are answered as well as they can be, most of us just want to see you make the right decision for your life (and don't make poker look bad! ). I fucked up, but I'm good anyway, so who knows?

[zarry]

and if I havent said this I appricate all your imput and support from everyone. I completly agree with you about the way our society works, the fact is after working bullshit jobs for 5 years of my life I have learned that it isnt worth the money when I can do something I have a passion for and make more money. About the BR comment lets say even if I played the 15' 2 table turbos that is 200 buyins, a 200 buyin swing in SnG's is very plasauble but I havent seen more then 50... I personally have experienced a 27 swing at the 15 level. To make more then construction is even possible If i stay at the 15's wich is another possible idea now... I run about 25% roi in those pretty easily because thats included in this month along with the 27 buyin swing..., and I can easily play 400 a month... which is 1500 a month if everything goes according, I am only making 8 an hour working construction. which working EVERY DAY OF EVERY WEEK that month is only 1320... So even at the 15's i pull more then construction assuming I dont hit a horrid swing... So i think 3k could be enough considering my expenses are extremely low... I dont plan to spend more then 1.5k the whole summer.

As for the social aspect I currently play poker as a part time job and still find time for my friends. I find time for my friends at home when im working construction, the fact is there will always be time for my true friends because that means more to me then a paycheck.

I basically think I am going to explain to them everything and depending on their anwser act according, if they say ok then ill be damned... lol If they say no, then ill bring up the idea of a part time job and part time poker... Or worst case scenario just tell them flat out I wont be here this summer Im stayin with a friend. I really would rather not get to this so at worst I hope the accept the part time job offer :/

Ill keep everyone updatedand I would like to say thank you again for everyones concern and help.

[flomo]

Good Luck zarry!

[shysti]

just molotov his car and be done with it

Ok Lukie, I'll give you a lol if it makes you happy.

lol.

yes!!!!!

rofl you guys kick so much ass on here, that I've stopped my other message forums and am now hanging out here all day (even at work b/c I got it like that )

[Bmxicle]

just win 20k a month while in college and they can't really argue with you.

[midas06]

dued........ jus ttell your dad to stfu and le tyou play pokah yano...... making moneyh is fun!!!!!111111111

[ake]

Harry, you're a mean drunk

[midas06]

suap johan

[euphoricism]

Look, learn from my mistakes. I quit my summer job to play poker.

It caused a LOT of grief. My parents just dont get it.

You have to PROVE you can do this. You need ACCURATE DETAILED records. Don't just tell them 'you think you can'. You've GOT to prove it, or your life WILL SUCK.

They'll ask you EVERY 10 minutes, "How much did you lose?", "Are you broke yet?", "How much ya down today?"

If you want to do this, start making your case, but more importantly START KEEPING RECORDS and be HONEST about it.

If you can't get a 3.0 in college... you're doing it wrong...

[gabe]

If you can't get a 3.0 in college... you're doing it wrong...

wronggggg

[ItDepends]

If you can't get a 3.0 in college... you're doing it wrong...

Not everyone is an LAS major in a state school.

[midas06]

worst bump ever?

[ItDepends]

worst bump ever?

y

[flomo]

update us here zarry

[a500lbgorilla]

3.0 is tough shit, it takes a lot of work to do well in college brosif.

[Lukie]

If you get a 3.0 in college... you're doing it wrong...

fyp

[Lukie]

3.0 is tough shit, it takes a lot of work to do well in college brosif.

I hope this is another 'rilla sarcastic comment.

[a500lbgorilla]

uh, no. I work pretty damn hard to only have a 3.5

[mrhappy333]

Your parents are geniuses. They love you and are suprisingly correct in many areas. They are also willing to let you make your case - very cool.

-Its Illegal - It actually might be in your state -- some states are 21 and up. Online gaming is questionable legally, but the laws aren't enforced because of conflicting treaties and such. You parents may not be RIGHT, but they are definitely not WRONG. Also, many online poker rooms and casinos set the age at 21 instead of 18 -- do you know which are which?

Oh, BTW, what are you gonna put on your resume when you want to start working out of college for more than $10/hr?

-Sedintary - Damn, I'm fat. But I have a wife. What about you, Chunky?

-Gain Social Skills - Teen-agers think social skills involve hanging out with their firends and not fearing hitting on chicks. Social skills also involve superiors and inferiors (teachers, bosses, supervision, coworker). The smooth handling of other people, whether you like them or not, is where social skills come into play.

-Guarenteed Revenue - You can be a break even poker player and make $1500 a month while holding a full time job, just by hunting bonuses. But if you have to remove a set amount monthly, before your bankroll is substantial, this is very stressfull. Ask AOK about removing BR monthly -- it's tough to HAVE to win -- makes you play different. Your expenses won't be that high as a student. But I'd say you should roll up $5K, at least, before summer, and then show your folks.

-SCHOOL GRADES... - If your sick about gaming, this is a real issue. If your not sick, you can at least see that your parents would be concerned about you making good decisions about your time?


I know you can do it.
I wouldn't put that much effort into convincing them now. Show them a roll, then you all will know you can do it, and the finer points will be less of an issue. Don't show them a roll? Go get a job.

It's not just about the way you play poker. It's about the way you make decisions and spend money. If you make a roll and then spend it on shiny junk and fast food and entertainment, then I'm with your parents. If you quietly accumulate money, take care of real-life business, think of others, contribute to your home and relationships, then I'm with you.

Wow, I was just going to say something very much the same here.

Your parents are only looking out for you. You should also be happy they are still together, and both still alive!!

My vote would be to get PT job, finish school, get great job making BANK. Then play poker PT and if your really that good, only when your done with school, then play FT. Poker will be here for your whole life, It's tuff going back to school, when your 25 or 35. Everyone is 18 and your the old fart...

[thenonsequitur]

worst bump ever?

It would be, except that I noticed that zarry never updated, so:

update us here zarry

Curious how what happened and how it's coming along.

[zarry]

Parents won here... I work 9-5 in a print shop for a town, I do graphic design for their flyers and I run the machines. I do graphic design for a website or two so poker has really took a back burner atm as has my contribution to the forum... Trip actually got me to take a look at this so I thought I'd update.

They were ready to kick me out of the house and I dont have enough money to support myself at the time so, they win.

Right now I wake up, hit the gym, work, come home, shower, and im I am out until they are asleep and reapeat. So I dont see much of them and dont plan on seeing much of them but what can I do I still need their help so Im restricted by that.

Thanks for your interest, hope everyones having a good summer.

[jyms]

I was going to say, their way or the highway, but they already did. If you thought poker was a good enough job you could move out and do what you want with it. Their roof, their rules. Good luck and be happy your parents care.

[Muxy]

Parents won here... I work 9-5 in a print shop for a town, I do graphic design for their flyers and I run the machines. I do graphic design for a website or two so poker has really took a back burner atm as has my contribution to the forum... Trip actually got me to take a look at this so I thought I'd update.

They were ready to kick me out of the house and I dont have enough money to support myself at the time so, they win.

Right now I wake up, hit the gym, work, come home, shower, and im I am out until they are asleep and reapeat. So I dont see much of them and dont plan on seeing much of them but what can I do I still need their help so Im restricted by that.

Thanks for your interest, hope everyones having a good summer.

My mom has currently disowned me for having poker as my only incoem as she thinks it is wrong and yada yada yada... long story short she is a whacked up bitch and that is why she lives 900 miles from me.

Same goes as my grand parents, my dad is cool with it and so is his GF.... so fuck the world.

[alias2211]

get a job as security guard so you can play poker while on the clock. duh.

[Reidak]

KILL YOURSELF. QUICK.