JEHOVAH'S WITNESS??

[arkana]

I dont believe in royal flushes because they are statistically very very unlikely.

Compared to the probabilities i was talking about royal flushes are dead certainties. Some people believe that we have just luckboxed our way into this world, I cant accept it. THE WORLD IS RIGGED I TELL YOU!!!

[Miffed22001]

I dont believe in royal flushes because they are statistically very very unlikely.

Compared to the probabilities i was talking about royal flushes are dead certainties. Some people believe that we have just luckboxed our way into this world, I cant accept it. THE WORLD IS RIGGED I TELL YOU!!!

i believe in the doomswitch, therefore i should believe in god too.

damn

[arkana]

And this is where the believer and the non-believer must agree to disagree. You think this cannot be random (i assume, and i respect this if you or anyone else does) whereas i can accept that this is possibly random.
Ofc, in my own personal experience, im not totally unwilling to believe that this isnt just random... but that is my personal experience, not most people who are unbelievers/aethiests etc.

If you told me you got dealt a million royal flushes in a row, I cant prove to you that its not possible either. I understand your position though, the only way someone can believe is by having faith and that is by definition trusting in something that can't be proved or explained.

[Miffed22001]

And this is where the believer and the non-believer must agree to disagree. You think this cannot be random (i assume, and i respect this if you or anyone else does) whereas i can accept that this is possibly random.
Ofc, in my own personal experience, im not totally unwilling to believe that this isnt just random... but that is my personal experience, not most people who are unbelievers/aethiests etc.

If you told me you got dealt a million royal flushes in a row, I cant prove to you that its not possible either. I understand your position though, the only way someone can believe is by having faith and that is by definition trusting in something that can't be proved or explained.

and as noted, i believe in a person being able to control their own destiny in which case i dont need faith in something else as i have it in myself so to speak.
But in the same instance, i recognise others need/want this faith in something, which is fine by me.

[arkana]

Also anyone who doesnt believe in God obviously hasnt run very bad.

[Warpe]

Atheists don't draw to 2 outers.

[Miffed22001]

Atheists don't draw to 2 outers.

makes u a believer then eh fishy? :P

[Warpe]

Atheists don't draw to 2 outers.

makes u a believer then eh fishy? :P

Just in Lee Jones

[Miffed22001]

Atheists don't draw to 2 outers.

makes u a believer then eh fishy? :P

Just in Lee Jones

brbphotoshopingleejones

[bigred]

Is someone else gonna call someone else a Nazi soon? That always happens in these religion threads.

[Lukie]

Is someone else gonna call someone else a Nazi soon? That always happens in these religion threads.

You lose.

[Lukie]

this whole thread, no, the entire debate in itself, makes me laugh.

On a completely unrelated side note. I had a really bad cut on my finger the other day. Now logic and fact tells me that I cut myself while chopping up some carrots for my mom to put in her soup, but my spirituality tells me that we should ignore all facts and evidence, and the real reason that cut is there is because a mysterious, invisible ghost did it and it was 'meant to be'.

[Miffed22001]

BOW DOWN TO YOUR GOD!





yes i suck at photowatevaitis
I know.[/b]

[Warpe]

um...all I see is a little box with a red x in it

[Miffed22001]

um...all I see is a little box with a red x in it

dont blaspheme the almighty god damn you!

[chardrian]

If Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door, take off all your clothes and answer the door naked. Works for me. That is all.

I did that with the Mormons and now they come by twice a week.

[Warpe]

If Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door, take off all your clothes and answer the door naked. Works for me. That is all.

I did that with the Mormons and now they come by twice a week.

See? Told ya.

[midas06]

lol it took miffed 20 minutes to make that

[bigred]

I love Warpe

[Lukie]

I love FTR.

[martindcx1e]

this whole thread, no, the entire debate in itself, makes me laugh.

On a completely unrelated side note. I had a really bad cut on my finger the other day. Now logic and fact tells me that I cut myself while chopping up some carrots for my mom to put in her soup, but my spirituality tells me that we should ignore all facts and evidence, and the real reason that cut is there is because a mysterious, invisible ghost did it and it was 'meant to be'.

wtf?

[Renton]

this whole thread, no, the entire debate in itself, makes me laugh.

On a completely unrelated side note. I had a really bad cut on my finger the other day. Now logic and fact tells me that I cut myself while chopping up some carrots for my mom to put in her soup, but my spirituality tells me that we should ignore all facts and evidence, and the real reason that cut is there is because a mysterious, invisible ghost did it and it was 'meant to be'.

rofl from the photos you have posted of yourself you seem like your stereotypical good christian kid.

Guess I was wrong. Guess we'll see each other in Hell, Lukie.

[Lukie]

holla

[dsmrolla06]

This is the new currency expected to be available by 2008

[Greedo017]

does that currency allow for the celebration of kwanzaa?

[martindcx1e]

it also teaches you that whatever you do, as long as you say you're sorry, its all good. and that is a horrible lesson.

take the story of David for instance. He sees this hot woman, and wants to bang her, but she's married. so, he sends her husband off to war and makes sure that he is in the front lines, then has his generals pull back leaving him exposed where he dies. then David gets with her. afterwards he says "oops, was that wrong, im sorry, I wrote a song about it and how very wrong i was." "its all good baby. as long as you are sorry."

Christianity teaches that a christian should not be able to commit sin without feeling convicted/guilty about it. After a sin is committed they should be able to recognize it, admit their wrong-doing, and then continue on with the lifelong struggle to be as Christ-like as possible. It really isn't as easy as, "Do whatever you want and then just say sorry." If someone professes to be a Christian and has that mentality then I would seriously doubt their salvation.

[bigred]

In Bigred we trust

Has a nice ring to it.

[Greedo017]

Christianity teaches that a christian should not be able to commit sin without feeling convicted/guilty about it. After a sin is committed they should be able to recognize it, admit their wrong-doing, and then continue on with the lifelong struggle to be as Christ-like as possible. It really isn't as easy as, "Do whatever you want and then just say sorry." If someone professes to be a Christian and has that mentality then I would seriously doubt their salvation.

hear ye all masturbators, condom users, those lustful for bigred, and anyone who was ever born and therefore has original sin - you're going to hell. kthx.

[martindcx1e]

hear ye all masturbators, condom users, those lustful for bigred, and anyone who was ever born and therefore has original sin - you're going to hell. kthx.

ummmm no?

[bigred]

Since when is desiring me a sin?

I am a gift from God, lust away.

[martindcx1e]

Since when is desiring me a sin?

I am a gift from God, lust away.

lol

[alias2211]

Is someone else gonna call someone else a Nazi soon? That always happens in normal political discourse these days..

FYP.

[Miffed22001]

Is someone else gonna call someone else a Nazi soon? That always happens in normal political discourse these days..

FYP.

no, it doesnt happen often enough imo. :P

NAZI'S!!!!!!

[Warpe]

Nazi Jehovah's Witnesses have their own magazine. It's called "The Guard Tower".

[Lukie]

let's talk about the japanese in the same war, they were kind of brutal too.

[pgil]

It cant be proven either way so there is no sense arguing about it, however religous people who dont question their beliefs and atheists who can't entertain the possibility of a god are closed minded. Humans have twisted and used religion to gain power and in doing so have given religion a very bad image and thats why I can understand why a lot of people are saying you must be stupid if you believe. Often when i see what religious people do\believe I feel the same. However if you can sift through all the layers of bullshit humans have added over the years I think you can find some truth.

I think it is a bit of a cop-out to just wash your hands of it and say that it can't be proven either way. It may be true that you cannot prove or disprove of a generic conception of god, but you can prove that a certain conception of god is so flawed that it cannot possibly be true.

I myself am a devout atheist, but I didn't just default to that position. I went about and systematically investigated the big three monotheistic religions (since they are the ones best known to me). I looked for internal consistency and both internal and external validity. Thanks to the large amount of writing on these religions it is fairly easy to do, it just takes some time. My work led me to the conclusion that none of these conceptions of god contain internal consistency, ie. there are contradictions within the conception of god. also, none contained any internal or external validity. there was no evidence of the type of god described in these religions. and the type of god described could not exist and preside over a world such as it is today.

This does not mean that there isnt a different conception of god that does meet the rigorous criteria I set out for myself. however, i would not want to believe in a god that was responsible for the current state of the world. Also, since everything can (or will eventually) be satisfactorily explained via science, a belief in god just isnt parsimonious. there is no reason to posit the existence of a god because it doesnt add any sort of explanatory power.

Just wanted to point out that just because I am dogmatic in my disbelief of god, doesnt mean that i am closed minded about the subject. i have just come to a resolute conclusion.

by the way, evolution works by selecting small changes that lead to better survival and then building upon them, so your paint can analogy doesnt hold. its kind of like the watch and the watchmaker. the watch exists, so there must have been someone that designed it. with watches this is true, but with living organisms it is not.

and do you know what is even more fantastical of an idea than that mankind evolved from single celled organisms? the idea that evolution applies to the whole of nature, except for us.

i have rambled long enough now.

[Tomazores]

Personally, my life improved dramatically when I recognized that life is not mere happenstance and that there is indeed a Creator/Father. If you really want to examine the facts, one must look into the Hebrew Torah, not the translations of men. Also, don't let religions confuse. They are about making money and controlling people, mostly. It is supposed to be simple. Every child knows what "written in stone" means. If one's father says something is written in stone, we know those are the rules of the house, plain and simple. Unfortunately most religions look over this simple fact, and teach all kinds of foolish doctrines which confuse.

As to the earth being created 6000 years ago, a look into the Hebrew will show that that is NOT what is being described. Just cause preachermen say that is what it means, doesn't make it correct. But, for those who have an open mind, and need scientific fact to help, you might want to check this link concerning the age of the universe:

http://www.aish.com/societywork/scie...e_universe.asp

And when your done with that, you might want to ask yourself how such a small minority of the peoples on the globe (ie, the Jews) could have such a tremendous impact in all fields of knowledge. Do you realise just how many nobel laureates are Jews? Poker players know about odds. Less than one percent of the peoples on the globe are Jews, how could they have had such an impact on mankind considering these odds:

http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

The facts belie the critics, atlhough of course there is "variance" that has to be taken into account

[Greedo017]

Yea, and it seems like way too many people jew me at the poker tables too

[Greedo017]

i can't help but find it funny how people find that one religion that makes them complete. this MUST be the true religion, see, we are all pompous and horde jew gold, god's people amirite?

you're just like everyone else who found every other religion and was "saved" by it. you found the hebrew or whatever, someone else found the bible and decided well religion is all wrong but the bible is 100% true, the quran, that hindu book, etc. there are enough religious books that are all 100% true to start a big fire. you are not special. you are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. you are the same decaying organic matter as everything else.

[Warpe]

Fight Club quotes FTW.

[pgil]

wow, that first link was pretty bad. even using the 'logic' presented on that page it still doesnt answer all of the questions. leaving off the '6 days' before man from genesis, the time since adam is still far shorter than the time since modern man actually appeared on the earth. not even close.

i really enjoyed this statement " Now, in 1959, astronomy was popular, but cosmology -- the deep physics of understanding the universe -- was just developing."
I guess the ancient greeks didnt count. they didnt have cosmology. nor did the romans or anybody else really. people just didnt think about those types of things until the early 1940's.

and just because your dad says something is 'written in stone' doesnt make him right. i dont know him, but i do know many fathers who are complete and utter morons. besides, those who speak in absolutes like that and try to head off discussion or disagreement by making pronouncements of that nature are usually dim-witted and just plain wrong.

[EricE]

I doubt I can add much to this conversation but here goes.

The bible shouldnt be interpreted literally, it was inspired by God but written by people - if God really wanted to be technical and document how everything was created im sure no one would be able to understand it. Think of it as a timeless story that conveys ideas and not facts.

The devout believe the bible is “god breathed”. Meaning that it was written by people but NOT with the people’s words. God decreed every word that went on the page. It is EXACTLY what he wanted to say. That is where you get the bible code from. How else would a “code” be possible if mere men wrote it.

Personally I find too many contradictions in the bible to believe that but maybe I am just not smart enough or have studied it long enough to understand that they are not contradictions. Anything is possible.


I also wanted to explain that the reason a religious person doesn’t believe in both evolution and creation is that the bible specifically says this is the way the world (and man) was created. If it was “god breathed” then it happened exactly that way, no other way. Anyone who believes in both creation and evolution doesn’t believe the bible is literal.

I know all this because I have been around religion all my life. I was brought up Christian and married one (probably a big mistake but we have made an ok life for ourselves).


On the subject of “all your sins are forgiven”.
Like Rondavu, I tend to believe there are lots of good lessons in the bible. Being “forgiven” is one of them, I think. How many of you know people who torture themselves for things they have done. Things that are in the past and can’t be changed. I am not talking about big things like murder and such but the little every day things that build up. If you don’t let these things go you can’t be a very happy person. Joy in life only comes with you are willing to forgive yourself for things and get past it. I think that the bibles “forgiveness” is aimed at allowing a joyfull life….not an altogether unworthy goal.

[pgil]

but the problem is in the bible the forgiveness does cover the big things. its not just not giving to the nice old lady collecting for charity that gets forgiven. its virtually everything. that is a bad message. i dont care how much of a spiritual awakening someone has had, certain things cannot and should not be forgiven. the belief in absolution allows people to do things that they would otherwise have a much harder time doing, either because they believe that they can be forgiven, or that they feel they have a worthy cause (ie. saving someone's soul). and the ends can never justify the means.

[Lukie]

Some things are just testaments to mankind's stupidity. I'll let others ellaborate.

[Greedo017]

excellent point lukie, for example many types of shaving fall into this category. ill let you continue

[EricE]

but the problem is in the bible the forgiveness does cover the big things. its not just not giving to the nice old lady collecting for charity that gets forgiven. its virtually everything.

To be technical, it is isn’t “virtually everything”. It IS everything that is forgiven.

But I think the amount of sane well balanced people far outnumber the insane unbalanced people. Allowing the sane to forgive themselves and get joy out of life is a noble cause, I think. The insane/unbalanced will always come up with a justification for doing what they did/do. They don’t really need a reason like “god will forgive me” to allow them to do it. Be it voices in their head or whatever, they will do what they do anyway. That is hardly a reason to say that allowing forgiveness is a bad thing.

[martindcx1e]

on the topic of people finding the one true religion, yes, it can seem absurd for so many different people to think that they follow the one true religion and that all others are hellbound infidels, BUT i think we can at least rule out some religions on this principle.....their origins. i say if a religion's origins lie with somebody (a human being) having a revelation and physically starting the religion, then it should be discredited. how powerful can that religion's god(s) be if there's no hope for all of the people who came and went before the human was given their revelation? "oops sorry you should have been born later. you go to hell now bye bye nh gg, etc." so if a religion was started by an inevitably imperfect human being and actually has a tangible starting point it is ridiculous to me.

[pgil]

what religion doesnt have a starting point????
there are no timeless religions, they all start somewhere.

but on your point i guess i kind of have to agree with you then.

there are unforgivable sins by the way. suicide being one of them (the only one, i am not sure??)

[EricE]

what religion doesnt have a starting point????
there are no timeless religions, they all start somewhere.

but on your point i guess i kind of have to agree with you then.

there are unforgivable sins by the way. suicide being one of them (the only one, i am not sure??)

I believe that is catholic only. I don't think it is in the bible.

The only one I know if is from my pastor (I don't read the bible so I don't know jack about it, just what I hear. I did read it once but that was long ago). Anyway, my pastor says the one unforgivable sin is rejecting the call to jesus for the third time. Like he makes a special plee to your heart and you reject him 3 times. After that, it is said, you are lost forever.

I guess I am lost forever. hehe.

[Miffed22001]

im happy that if god exists, he knows i dont believe and why. And if im gona burn for that, then God doesnt have much respect does he?

[samsonite2100]

Some people call it the Bible--I call it "Too Many Cooks."

[LeFou]

The only one I know if is from my pastor (I don't read the bible so I don't know jack about it, just what I hear. I did read it once but that was long ago). Anyway, my pastor says the one unforgivable sin is rejecting the call to jesus for the third time. Like he makes a special plee to your heart and you reject him 3 times. After that, it is said, you are lost forever.

WTF kind of church is this? I've never heard this before in my life.

God to the Crown Jewel of His Creation: "Strike Three!!! HAHAHA!! wtfpwnt!"

[mrhappy333]

on the topic of people finding the one true religion, yes, it can seem absurd for so many different people to think that they follow the one true religion and that all others are hellbound infidels, BUT i think we can at least rule out some religions on this principle.....their origins. i say if a religion's origins lie with somebody (a human being) having a revelation and physically starting the religion, then it should be discredited. how powerful can that religion's god(s) be if there's no hope for all of the people who came and went before the human was given their revelation? "oops sorry you should have been born later. you go to hell now bye bye nh gg, etc." so if a religion was started by an inevitably imperfect human being and actually has a tangible starting point it is ridiculous to me.

I have to agree to most of this, but also that every religion has a starting point. But to say a man starts a religion in 1879, and now that is the only true religion, I don't know how anyone could believe that.
Yeah,, what about all the people that came and went before 1879? I don't have any problem with the people in that religion, only when they say, it's the "TRUTH" and they are the only ones that are going to be saved. Thats when my blood starts to boil.
(STEAM coming from the top of my head)............................................. ..breathe mrhappy breathe...............

[thnwkd]

what do scientologist believe?

[Warpe]

what do scientologist believe?

http://www.scientomogy.com/southpark_scientology.php

[martindcx1e]

well one thing i think is unique about christianity (which should NOT include catholicism, which was created for money and power IMO and does have a starting point) is that there isn't a starting point. you can't point to any human or group who started it. it has just always been. now i know there are other religions that state how the world began and that their god has always been but you can actually find a point in history when that religion was not around. and christianity didn't start with jesus christ on earth. according to the bible and what christiantiy teaches, people who lived before jesus came to earth were still generally saved in the same manner that christianity teaches today, only they were looking forward to the savior whereas today people look back to the savior. the other unique thing about christianity is that christians do not have to "work" their way to heaven by doing enough good works or by attending church services, etc. i have yet to find another religion that does not say that certain works or rituals must be done in order to make it to the positive side of the after-life. btw i am not a poster boy for christianity or some raging hate-mongering southerner. i just think these are important things to consider when comparing different religions. those who are atheists will still have their same problems with christianity and religion in general, but i think these are important things to point out.

[Lukie]

A quick point I'd like to make.

Out of all the world's religions (and there are many), at most, only one can possibly be correct (if this is wrong, someone please correct me). I'd like for somebody to tell me their religion, and why it has to be right. And all the others wrong. Also, please provide some kind of logic, facts, evidence, proof, what have you. Story books don't count.

Thanks,

Lukie

[samsonite2100]

Out of all the world's religions (and there are many), at most, only one can possibly be correct (if this is wrong, someone please correct me). I'd like for somebody to tell me their religion, and why it has to be right. And all the others wrong. Also, please provide some kind of logic, facts, evidence, proof, what have you. Story books don't count.

Mormonism is correct. The angel Moroni came to Joseph Smith in visions and told him to dig up his backyard. He found the magical gold tablets bearing the word of God, read them, and then transcribed what he read to his secretary by burying his face in his hat and staring at his magical "peep stone." This all seems logical enough to me. Satisfied, Lukie?

[martindcx1e]

well lukie i was trying to show why christianity is different from any other religion i've come across. i think it is very unique. it may not seem so "different" sometimes because of how popular it is, but i think if you take what it teaches and compare its basic doctrine to other religions it stands out as being one-of-a-kind. of course every religion is one-of-a-kind but you know what i mean.

[martindcx1e]

Out of all the world's religions (and there are many), at most, only one can possibly be correct (if this is wrong, someone please correct me).

...Story books don't count.

and yes this MUST be true if any religion is to be true. also, you have to go to each religion's "story book" for the doctrine, beliefs, views, etc. so it's kind of hard to avoid using the bible, koran, book of mormon, or whatever else.

[pgil]

i think you are confusing christianity with judaism. christianity started with jesus. judaism did have a beginning though as a religion. and there are many rituals in the judeo-christian tradition that must be followed to get to heaven. specifically those regarding attonement for sin.

i think a truly unique religion is buddhism (the original buddhism, not any of the new age offshoots). it is unique because true buddhism claims that there is no god. no other religions that i know of make this claim.

[martindcx1e]

i think you are confusing christianity with judaism. christianity started with jesus. judaism did have a beginning though as a religion. and there are many rituals in the judeo-christian tradition that must be followed to get to heaven. specifically those regarding attonement for sin.

i think a truly unique religion is buddhism (the original buddhism, not any of the new age offshoots). it is unique because true buddhism claims that there is no god. no other religions that i know of make this claim.

christianity existed before jesus. maybe the term "christianity" didn't. the bible doesn't start with the birth of jesus. it starts with the beginning of everything. the christians from the old testament are not in hell right now because jesus hadn't come yet. once jesus was born the jews rejected him and to this day do not consider him to be the son of god like christians do. i think with jesus came a sort of "split" and from that came modern judaism and christianity. also, christianity teaches that to be saved one must only admit their sin, believe that jesus the son of god died and rose again for their sin, and accept god's gift of salvation - it is not ritualistic.

so true buddhism is atheism?

[Renton]

also, christianity teaches that to be saved one must only admit their sin, believe that jesus the son of god died and rose again for their sin, and accept god's gift of salvation - it is not ritualistic.

Um, Christianity is very ritualistic, and the irony lies in the fact that there are completetly different rituals for different sects.

Communion
Baptism
Confession to a priest
Burial of the dead in hermetically sealed nonbiodegradable boxes
Speaking in mysterious tongues
Abstinence
Self flagellation (obscure sects)
Arbitrarily dubbing seemingly harmless words and images as blasphemous

and etc. etc.

[martindcx1e]

also, christianity teaches that to be saved one must only admit their sin, believe that jesus the son of god died and rose again for their sin, and accept god's gift of salvation - it is not ritualistic.

Um, Christianity is very ritualistic, and the irony lies in the fact that there are completetly different rituals for different sects.

Communion
Baptism
Confession to a priest
Burial of the dead in hermetically sealed nonbiodegradable boxes
Speaking in mysterious tongues
Abstinence
Self flagellation (obscure sects)
Arbitrarily dubbing seemingly harmless words and images as blasphemous

and etc. etc.

well one thing i think is unique about christianity (which should NOT include catholicism...

those are things generally associated with catholicism and are not taught in the christian bible (the one that most people think of when you say "bible"). these are things taught in catholocism and in their "Apocrypha " which is a collection of "extra" books in the bible that teach things contradictory to the rest of the book. some of those things do appear in the bible like baptism or communion, and they are encouraged but are by no means necessary for salvation. and, btw, confessing your sins to a priest is one of the most blasphemous things about catholicism. it's too bad that christianity gets lumped together with it because it sure confuses people.

[boost]

on the topic of people finding the one true religion, yes, it can seem absurd for so many different people to think that they follow the one true religion and that all others are hellbound infidels, BUT i think we can at least rule out some religions on this principle.....their origins. i say if a religion's origins lie with somebody (a human being) having a revelation and physically starting the religion, then it should be discredited. how powerful can that religion's god(s) be if there's no hope for all of the people who came and went before the human was given their revelation? "oops sorry you should have been born later. you go to hell now bye bye nh gg, etc." so if a religion was started by an inevitably imperfect human being and actually has a tangible starting point it is ridiculous to me.

Im not buddhist but my mom is, you should read up on it. It was obviously started by a man, buddha, yet it does not damn the soles of any who came before him, and not even any after him. Reincarnation is part of the religion, and therefore you will get another chance. It is also very compatible with science. There are more (historically) politically aligned forms of buddhism, yet this fact should show any person that has a brain that it has probably been tampered with.

Im not well read on my moms religion at all, and I am not part of it because I am just the type of person that like science and likes facts. I big part of her religion from what I have seen seems to deal with how to manage yourself emotionally and mentally. I feel like I can sit and process my thoughts on my own, I dont need to 'meditate.'

The point Im trying to make is that there are lots of religions even some that are pretty damn main stream that arent in line with the 'big three.'

[vqc]

on the topic of people finding the one true religion, yes, it can seem absurd for so many different people to think that they follow the one true religion and that all others are hellbound infidels, BUT i think we can at least rule out some religions on this principle.....their origins. i say if a religion's origins lie with somebody (a human being) having a revelation and physically starting the religion, then it should be discredited. how powerful can that religion's god(s) be if there's no hope for all of the people who came and went before the human was given their revelation? "oops sorry you should have been born later. you go to hell now bye bye nh gg, etc." so if a religion was started by an inevitably imperfect human being and actually has a tangible starting point it is ridiculous to me.

Im not buddhist but my mom is, you should read up on it. It was obviously started by a man, buddha, yet it does not damn the soles of any who came before him, and not even any after him. Reincarnation is part of the religion, and therefore you will get another chance. It is also very compatible with science. There are more (historically) politically aligned forms of buddhism, yet this fact should show any person that has a brain that it has probably been tampered with.

Im not well read on my moms religion at all, and I am not part of it because I am just the type of person that like science and likes facts. I big part of her religion from what I have seen seems to deal with how to manage yourself emotionally and mentally. I feel like I can sit and process my thoughts on my own, I dont need to 'meditate.'

The point Im trying to make is that there are lots of religions even some that are pretty damn main stream that arent in line with the 'big three.'

but rather their toes

[boost]

i think you are confusing christianity with judaism. christianity started with jesus. judaism did have a beginning though as a religion. and there are many rituals in the judeo-christian tradition that must be followed to get to heaven. specifically those regarding attonement for sin.

i think a truly unique religion is buddhism (the original buddhism, not any of the new age offshoots). it is unique because true buddhism claims that there is no god. no other religions that i know of make this claim.

thats funny, because the buddhism my mom follows might be considered 'new age'. It has broaken away from the main clergy. The reason for this is that they had lost thier way, they were cooperating with the japanese gov't in WWII, this was not the buddhist way, this was against the teachings of the religion, it was pure hypocracy. Also there began to form a heirarchy of monks who started to claim that the everyday man(or woman) was not able to attain nirvanna (boy did they have it wrong; compilations at bestbuy sell for 11.99!) This was clearly jsut a power move, the yattempted to raise them selfs up above the average man. They tried to paint themselves as demi-gods in a sense.

So I guess you can call the buddism my mom follows an offshoot, or newage, or whatever, but the truth is that it is the closest to true buddhism. Oh I should also point out that the buddhism that cooperated with the japanese in WWII, and say that only monks who dedicate thier lives to the practice can reach nirvanna, they believe in buddha as a god, they pray too him. The buddhism my mom follows, it is the teachings of buddha, he was a great man, but he was not a god, just a man who had reached enlightenment.

[boost]

oh and martin, I want to quickly (I hope its quickly..) prove that christianity did have a start. Christianity did not exist in any sense as one religion B.C. There was judaism. They believed that their savior would come ect ect. That religion still exists today and follows the same/similar traditions that it did B.C. So, no they are not christians, and they werent before jesus. They were jews. Also the fact is that christianity is a completely different religion, sure it borrows some from judaism, hell its based on it. But if you want to really look at the facts, christianity is a medly of various religions that existed around that time. Lots of attributes were taken from different religions. People would travels and spread the gospel of jesus christ. They told the stories, and people would perpetuate them. Yet a christian official was not left in charge of protecting the teachings. In the early days this was almost 100% word of mouth. When the person spreading the word moved on, people would often meld thier beliefs with teh ones the passerthrough taught. There was no official 'bible' for hundreds of years after jesus died. In some places jews had excepted jesus as thier savior and had then became christians, and soemtimes they lived thier lives in much the same fashion as before, still carrying on with most of thier practices. Then there were polytheistic religions that melded with christianity, and many scholors believe this is the reason for such christian figures as the virgin mary, and hte reason fro the holy trinity. So anyways, I just dont see how you cant agree that christianity started with jesus christ.


oh and just to throw a wrench in your gears, do you realize how many self professed masiahs there were? I bet youll tell me that they didnt turn water into wine, or whatever. How about moses? Dont you believe in him too? He too performed some miracles, unless Im mistaken he split the red sea. Is he too the masiah?
Let me give you an example, jesus rose from his grave we all know this right? Well the problem is that people saw this and modern psycology has taught us that eyewitnesses are far less reliable then we had first believed. And just because there are multiple eye witnesses does not further prove a thing. It can actually help to cast a shadow of doubt.
This is how things can easy get skewed with multiple witnesses.
person A: Hey, look at that weird thing in the sky!!!
person B: It looks kinda like a ... ghost?
person C: OH MY GOD, ITS JESUS RISING FROM THE DEAD!!!
person D:HE IS THE MASIAH!!!
person A: OH MY GOD YOURE RIGHT! WE ARE ALL SAVED!
person B: !!!!!!!!!

Now everyone goes and tells everyone, and person E-J who didnt see anything but were in teh area and heard about it first hand now profess that they too saw it. person K-Q were right there and saw nothing, and say so but they are drown out by al lthe hype and excited me and zealots. person R-U were right there and saw nothing, but because of peer pressure/ not wanting to seem less 'touched' then the others claim to have seen it all, and even exagerate on what they 'witnessed.' person V-Z hear about the event 3rd 4th and 5th handed and perpetuate it, elaborating and embelishing the whole way, often claiming they saw it themselves. Now all of a sudden in a world full of ignorant uneducated masses(how things have changed! [/sarcasm]) it has become a fact that some easily explained event is not just some common act of nature, but the resurrection of jesus christ!!! So as you can see, a lot of 'miracles' can easily be explained. And it could very well be taht jesus was just another guy saying hes the masiah, yet this jesus guy got lucky and things worked out so that he was believed in the end by hundreds of millions (billions?)

sorry, that was anything but quick.

[pgil]

by new age buddhism i was referring to the sects that treat buddha as a god. it seems so wrong since one of his main teachings was that there is no god.

quick question for martin. by christianity are you simply referring to the messianic tradition in judaism, or are you actually referring to christianity? i am very confused by your arguments.
to claim that before jesus, jewish people were christians is very confusing. if you actually mean that they believed that a messiah (or christ) would come, then that is one thing, but to call it christianity (which is the umbrella term that covers the many sects that believe that jesus was the jewish messiah) is very misleading and confusing.

[martindcx1e]

oh and martin, I want to quickly (I hope its quickly..) prove that christianity did have a start. Christianity did not exist in any sense as one religion B.C. There was judaism. They believed that their savior would come ect ect. That religion still exists today and follows the same/similar traditions that it did B.C. So, no they are not christians, and they werent before jesus. They were jews. Also the fact is that christianity is a completely different religion, sure it borrows some from judaism, hell its based on it. But if you want to really look at the facts, christianity is a medly of various religions that existed around that time. Lots of attributes were taken from different religions. People would travels and spread the gospel of jesus christ. They told the stories, and people would perpetuate them. Yet a christian official was not left in charge of protecting the teachings. In the early days this was almost 100% word of mouth. When the person spreading the word moved on, people would often meld thier beliefs with teh ones the passerthrough taught. There was no official 'bible' for hundreds of years after jesus died. In some places jews had excepted jesus as thier savior and had then became christians, and soemtimes they lived thier lives in much the same fashion as before, still carrying on with most of thier practices. Then there were polytheistic religions that melded with christianity, and many scholors believe this is the reason for such christian figures as the virgin mary, and hte reason fro the holy trinity. So anyways, I just dont see how you cant agree that christianity started with jesus christ.

the terms "christianity" and "christians" started in jesus' time. before jesus you had the jews who were looking forward to the savior. when jesus came there were those who accepted him and those who rejected him. those who accepted him believed that the prophecies that one reads about in the old testament had come true. they embraced him and followed his teachings. those that rejected him continued on and are still looking forward to the savior. like i said with jesus came a sort of split where the jews who accepted him started being labeled christians eventually.

and i don't think christianity being melded with several different pagan religions is considered to be "fact."

oh and just to throw a wrench in your gears, do you realize how many self professed masiahs there were? I bet youll tell me that they didnt turn water into wine, or whatever. How about moses? Dont you believe in him too? He too performed some miracles, unless Im mistaken he split the red sea. Is he too the masiah?
Let me give you an example, jesus rose from his grave we all know this right? Well the problem is that people saw this and modern psycology has taught us that eyewitnesses are far less reliable then we had first believed. And just because there are multiple eye witnesses does not further prove a thing. It can actually help to cast a shadow of doubt.
This is how things can easy get skewed with multiple witnesses.
person A: Hey, look at that weird thing in the sky!!!
person B: It looks kinda like a ... ghost?
person C: OH MY GOD, ITS JESUS RISING FROM THE DEAD!!!
person D:HE IS THE MASIAH!!!
person A: OH MY GOD YOURE RIGHT! WE ARE ALL SAVED!
person B: !!!!!!!!!

Now everyone goes and tells everyone, and person E-J who didnt see anything but were in teh area and heard about it first hand now profess that they too saw it. person K-Q were right there and saw nothing, and say so but they are drown out by al lthe hype and excited me and zealots. person R-U were right there and saw nothing, but because of peer pressure/ not wanting to seem less 'touched' then the others claim to have seen it all, and even exagerate on what they 'witnessed.' person V-Z hear about the event 3rd 4th and 5th handed and perpetuate it, elaborating and embelishing the whole way, often claiming they saw it themselves. Now all of a sudden in a world full of ignorant uneducated masses(how things have changed! [/sarcasm]) it has become a fact that some easily explained event is not just some common act of nature, but the resurrection of jesus christ!!! So as you can see, a lot of 'miracles' can easily be explained. And it could very well be taht jesus was just another guy saying hes the masiah, yet this jesus guy got lucky and things worked out so that he was believed in the end by hundreds of millions (billions?)

sorry, that was anything but quick.

well for one thing moses did not claim to be the messiah. so are you saying that every single miracle performed ever didn't really happen and that they were all skewed by multiple eyewitnesses? i don't think your example equates to "a lot of 'miracles' can easily be explained."

i still don't think buddhism is all that unique because it was started by an inherently imperfect human being.

[EricE]

But Christianity (as we know it today) is very melded by pagan religions. Take the day they worship, Sunday. The bible says, keep the Sabbath holy…and the Sabbath was Saturday, the 7th day, the day god rested from making the universe. Why don’t they worship on Saturday? Because, in medieval times when King so and so (one of the king James) decided that he wanted to unite his world under one religion he picked christianity to be that faith. At the time a Very popular religion was the pagan religion of worshiping the sun or sun goddess. They worshiped on Sunday. To make Christianity more palatable to the sun worshipers he setup Sunday as the day of worship for his new umbrella religion. Viola, Sunday became the day of worship even though the bible says to worship on Saturday.

[Fnord]

The bible is a good book, because it teaches you a lot of good ideas about being an outstanding human being. I think it's wrong for an athiest or agnostic to dismiss the bible.

Jesus was a great man. It's a shame so many have since twisted his words to justify just about anything ranging from strange to cruel to flat-out evil.

I liked the 90 or so pages about him. It's a shame they ommited the Gospel of Thomas from the Christian canonical Bible.

The rest of the Bible is sick and twisted.

[LeFou]

I rather like Ecclesiastes

[EricE]

hehe, the old testiment is sick and twisted. yikes.

[boost]

martin, honestly some of the things you are saying are completely misguided and narrow minded. And they also are pretty offensive. So jesus was a perfect person? Yet buddha wasnt? What do you base this on? Who wrote the rules of the perfect person? I could say jesus is not and never was perfect because he never reached nirvana, yet buddha has. Obviously through this logic we have disproven christianity as the one true faith.

And as far as my example equating to anything: Its just an example, just think about it. Instead of just believing whats in some book, or what some dogmatic fool tells you.