Make your case: transgender, transracial

[wufwugy]

The transgender concept has been proven; genitals and brain structure aren't formed at the same time, female brains and male brains are pretty different structurally and with how they develop, etc. There's nothing to debate with regard to it existing. There is debate as to the degree that people who identify as transgender have this type of condition, meaning that there are certainly people who do not have "mismatched" (for lack of a better word) brain makeup and genitals who still decide to identify as transgender anyway.

Let's say you were born a male (you got the sex parts and the chromosomes) yet you have elements of a female brain. Even if you want to identify as a female, you're still not exactly a female.

The same is true of race. You can be born Irish, but maybe you were raised in a black household in Mississippi and you "think like a black Mississippian."

In our society, it seems it is okay for the former to choose what to be called while it is not okay for the latter. I can't square this circle.

[spoonitnow]

Let's say you were born a male (you got the sex parts and the chromosomes) yet you have elements of a female brain. Even if you want to identify as a female, you're still not exactly a female.

The same is true of race. You can be born Irish, but maybe you were raised in a black household in Mississippi and you "think like a black Mississippian."

In our society, it seems it is okay for the former to choose what to be called while it is not okay for the latter. I can't square this circle.

Let me break this down in as simple and easy to understand terms as I can for anyone who wants to know the facts of the situation and why it's a difficult scenario to work with.

1. Your first paragraph here describes someone who is transexual. Put briefly if slightly imprecisely, it's when the brain and the genitals are not of the same sex. The brains of men and women have several very distinct differences. All of this has been proven to the point that any debate at this point speaks to ignorance of the research.

2. Transgender means someone identifies as the opposite gender from the one their genitals would suggest they have. This necessarily means that all transexuals are transgendered, but not all of those who are transgendered are necessarily transexual.

3. It's difficult, but possible, to prove someone is transexual through analysis of their brain. This would also prove they are transgendered, as explained above. However, if someone is transgendered but was proven not to be transexual, there is currently no way to prove it.

4. The underlined in (3) illustrates why it's important in this discussion to distinguish between transexuals and non-transexual, transgendered individuals.

5. Race has been proven to have a genetic basis, though it's not very PC to note that this is the case because a majority of what we think of as race is cultural.

6. There is no scenario where someone's body and mind have different races in a situation that's analogous to transexuals.

7. Transracial refers to someone who identifies as a race other than their biological race.

8. There is no way to prove someone is "really" transracial in the same way that there's no way to prove someone is "really" transgendered if they are not transexual.

So here's your answer: Some people can be proven to be transgendered, but no one can be proven to be transracial.

/thread

[wufwugy]

Let me break this down in as simple and easy to understand terms as I can for anyone who wants to know the facts of the situation and why it's a difficult scenario to work with.

1. Your first paragraph here describes someone who is transexual. Put briefly if slightly imprecisely, it's when the brain and the genitals are not of the same sex. The brains of men and women have several very distinct differences. All of this has been proven to the point that any debate at this point speaks to ignorance of the research.

2. Transgender means someone identifies as the opposite gender from the one their genitals would suggest they have. This necessarily means that all transexuals are transgendered, but not all of those who are transgendered are necessarily transexual.

3. It's difficult, but possible, to prove someone is transexual through analysis of their brain. This would also prove they are transgendered, as explained above. However, if someone is transgendered but was proven not to be transexual, there is currently no way to prove it.

4. The underlined in (3) illustrates why it's important in this discussion to distinguish between transexuals and non-transexual, transgendered individuals.

5. Race has been proven to have a genetic basis, though it's not very PC to note that this is the case because a majority of what we think of as race is cultural.

6. There is no scenario where someone's body and mind have different races in a situation that's analogous to transexuals.

7. Transracial refers to someone who identifies as a race other than their biological race.

8. There is no way to prove someone is "really" transracial in the same way that there's no way to prove someone is "really" transgendered if they are not transexual.

So here's your answer: Some people can be proven to be transgendered, but no one can be proven to be transracial.

/thread

Good write up. This more or less satisfies what I was looking for. I can't make that great of an argument for why transracial should be treated the same as transgender, but some people think it should. Your argument is solid for why it shouldn't.

[spoonitnow]

1. Your first paragraph here describes someone who is transexual. Put briefly if slightly imprecisely, it's when the brain and the genitals are not of the same sex. The brains of men and women have several very distinct differences. All of this has been proven to the point that any debate at this point speaks to ignorance of the research.

2. Transgender means someone identifies as the opposite gender from the one their genitals would suggest they have. This necessarily means that all transexuals are transgendered, but not all of those who are transgendered are necessarily transexual.

3. It's difficult, but possible, to prove someone is transexual through analysis of their brain. This would also prove they are transgendered, as explained above. However, if someone is transgendered but was proven not to be transexual, there is currently no way to prove it.

4. The underlined in (3) illustrates why it's important in this discussion to distinguish between transexuals and non-transexual, transgendered individuals.

I want to use this section of my explanation above to pivot to the issue of bathroom usage.

Suppose that we allow transgendered people to use the bathroom that corresponds to the gender they identify with. This would effectively allow anyone to use either bathroom because it's impossible to prove that someone is not transgendered. If we don't allow it, then we have situations where someone who appears to be a man but who has a vagina, so this person has to use the women's bathroom, which results in pissing off women because they think there's a man in their bathroom. If we do allow it, then we have situations where men who look like men will use the women's bathroom, which results in the same problem.

As a result, there is no enforceable solution to this if we maintain the gendered bathrooms.

[Savy]

I want to use this section of my explanation above to pivot to the issue of bathroom usage.

Suppose that we allow transgendered people to use the bathroom that corresponds to the gender they identify with. This would effectively allow anyone to use either bathroom because it's impossible to prove that someone is not transgendered. If we don't allow it, then we have situations where someone who appears to be a man but who has a vagina, so this person has to use the women's bathroom, which results in pissing off women because they think there's a man in their bathroom. If we do allow it, then we have situations where men who look like men will use the women's bathroom, which results in the same problem.

As a result, there is no enforceable solution to this if we maintain the gendered bathrooms.

It's funny that some countries mostly have unisex toilets and there is no issue at all.

[spoonitnow]

It's funny that some countries mostly have unisex toilets and there is no issue at all.

That's what I'm in favor of, and it's also the only solution I see to this issue.

[Savy]

That's what I'm in favor of, and it's also the only solution I see to this issue.

Seems the logical thing really.

I also came across a stat (may be bullshit but makes sense) on twitter that the vast majority of attacks that happen in toilets are in women's toilets where it's women attacking men who have transitioned/are transitioning. The opposite doesn't really happen. It's just a somewhat irrational fear some people have that this will lead to men going into bathrooms to perv on women which isn't really valid & would be even less valid if toilets were mixed in the first place.

I think a more interesting, harder to answer, and relevant issue is how this effects prisons.