mosque at ground zero.

[Renton]

So recognizing an immutable truth is a parameter for an irrational fear now?

[spoonitnow]

towelhead

[Renton]

Yes i know that all religions are wack,

Once again though, to compare the barbarism of islam to christianity IN CIRCA 2010 is (it pains me to say) pretty unfair to christianity.

[spoonitnow]

camel jockey

[drmcboy]

YouTube - Eddie Murphy-Kill the White People.wmv

[Renton]

Pretty extreme difference between electrocuting a serial killer who failed 12 years worth of appeals and stoning a chick for adultery after almost no appeals process.

[NobleTruths]

...and stoning a chick for adultery after almost no appeals process.

uh....you mean, those women had some kind of appeals process???

[BennyLaRue]

uh....you mean, those women had some kind of appeals process???

"Please don't stone me" is technically an appeal? Crying is what we call a non-verbal appeal?

[Luco]

I hate all forms of religion. At least the muslims know how to treat bitches right

[Ltrain]

Listen to Wuf, this is all about money and power; religion is just the sugar to help the medicine not taste so bad. Don't pay attention to the wizard and look behind the curtain.

[kevster]

Is there some kind of special award we can give to BensonTheRoad for services to glibness?

"Commune King of Keeping It Real" perhaps.

[BennyLaRue]

Is there some kind of special award we can give to BensonTheRoad for services to glibness?

"Commune King of Keeping It Real" perhaps.

Yeah, I'm into the whole brevity thing, man. I'm crucial in the commune to balance out wufwugy.

[wufwugy]

I've been much more succinct lately

Your mom has as well

[BennyLaRue]

I've been much more succinct lately

Your mom has as well

She calls you brief as opposed to succinct.

[BankItDrew]

You're the fucking man, wuf. Don't change who you are.

[wufwugy]

Ya, I'm pretty crammed for time as I have several appointments with FTR mothers

[BooG690]

YouTube - Keith Olbermann Special Comment: There Is No 'Ground Zero Mosque' - 08/16/10

[Monsieur_chat]

YouTube - Keith Olbermann Special Comment: There Is No 'Ground Zero Mosque' - 08/16/10

Fucking brilliant. Shame most of the imbeciles protesting will never flick the channel from Fox News and see this.

I also feel sorry for Obama for the flack he received for backing the plans, *in accordance with US law*. It amazes me, your (admirable) constitution separates church and state and espouses freedom of religious practice and yet people somehow expect politicians, including the man in charge, to negate this law because of their own shortsighted prejudices.

Then again I doubt Obama's surprised. Two and a half years ago America elected it's most intelligent, thoughtful and promising president in a long time having endured eight years of horror under GWB, and now there's serious talk of him losing the next election. Astonishing.

[JKDS]

YouTube - Keith Olbermann Special Comment: There Is No 'Ground Zero Mosque' - 08/16/10

I think i jizzed my pants multiple times while watching this.

[kiwiMark]

Bitches always be tryin' to take my atheist manifesto away from me.

[bikes]

.PLAY FREE BIRD

[a500lbgorilla]

All I saw was a towel-head in white-man's clothing chanting allah ackbar for 10 minutes.

[a500lbgorilla]

All you need to know about Olbermann's piece.

YouTube - Glenn Beck on Keith Olbermann's Special Comment about Ground Zero Mosque

[BankItDrew]

All you need to know about Olbermann's piece.

YouTube - Glenn Beck on Keith Olbermann's Special Comment about Ground Zero Mosque

I wish he said why Keith was wrong. All Glenn did was mockery.

[Monsieur_chat]

All you need to know about Olbermann's piece.

YouTube - Glenn Beck on Keith Olbermann's Special Comment about Ground Zero Mosque

"All I need to know"?

Sorry, all I learned from that clip is that Glenn Beck doesn't like Keith Olbermann very much. Oh and that he's a massive fucking tool.

[BankItDrew]

All you need to know about Olbermann's piece.

YouTube - Glenn Beck on Keith Olbermann's Special Comment about Ground Zero Mosque

most misleading headline for a video ever

[a500lbgorilla]

That's how patriots think, Haji.

[BankItDrew]

[boost]

50 cent sells tons of albums... doesn't mean he makes good music. But then, here we are trying to present a logical rebuttal to Glenn Beck...

[mcatdog]

Why did people like Keith Olbermann's comment? That Nazi introduction was needlessly melodramatic and completely unconvincing. I was all set to make a comment about how embarrassing it must be to lose an argument to Glenn Beck...then I watched the Glenn Beck video. Wow, that's the last time I ever listen to that creep talk.

[BooG690]

Meh...we're a few steps away from stuffing Muslims into camps, kinda like we did to the Japanese back in 1942.

[Hawk]

I felt the same way about the Olbermann bit. Even though I agree with him, his act makes him less convincing. I don't watch him, so I don't know if that's how he normally is, but he comes off as nothing more than a liberal Beck.

Then Beck made me lol and Olbermann didn't look so bad. I'll never understand how anyone can take this guy seriously.

[kiwiMark]

+1 on the olbermann haters. It's like the flyers around town the international socialists put up- even if what you have to say is valid when you make it sound so extreme and so much like propaganda I'm just gonna ignore it.

[boost]

Did you guys listen to what Olbermann said?

The commonly accepted rule that the first to make comparison to nazi's in a debate loses by default does not apply here. He used a quote that was sourced from the holocaust. The quote is about how when someone else has their rights trampled on, it may not seem to affect you, but in given time it will. He even went out of his way to point out that he was not calling anyone a nazi, nor was he comparing the possible denial of a building permit to the suffering of the Jews in the holocaust.

Was it a bit over the top and dramatic? Ya, I guess.. but this is editorial video journalism.. what did you expect?

[Hawk]

Yeah, and like I said, I don't disagree with him. It's not even just the nazi thing, it's the over the top and dramatic thing that bothers me. He's right. He doesn't need to stoop to that level to make his point.

It just makes his points less convincing imo. It's the same thing that makes me dislike Beck without even taking in consideration the dumbass things he actually says.

[Warpe]

Yeah, and like I said, I don't disagree with him. It's not even just the nazi thing, it's the over the top and dramatic thing that bothers me. He's right. He doesn't need to stoop to that level to make his point.

It just makes his points less convincing imo. It's the same thing that makes me dislike Beck without even taking in consideration the dumbass things he actually says.

What you guys are all missing is that the exact same analogy has been used ad nauseum by all the Tea Party nutjobs for months and months now to stir fears about Obama's "socialist agenda". Olberman used it on purpose in a correct context to directly take a stab at them.

[JKDS]

But this is america...DAMN IT

[wufwugy]

Reasonable people are often too quick to reject strong analogies. The Nazi stuff is spot on. The Third Reich wishes they had as sophisticated a propaganda machine as Rupert Murdoch, and the only difference between Limbaugh and Radio Rwanda is circumstance

Godwin's Law has nothing to do with the merits of an argument, but is a humorous observation that the longer a debate goes, the more likely it becomes that somebody mentions Nazis. People have confused themselves into thinking that Nazi comparisons are somehow bad. I'll do it all day, and I'll be 100% right. Republicans are fascist scumbag hatemongering bigoted corporate-lapdog propagandists responsible for the proxy suffering of hundreds of millions. Not ONE of those descriptions is untrue.

Hitler needed an entire nation on the verge of total collapse in order to propagandize the populace. FOX and the GOP have been getting the job done during times of great prosperity. Hitler would look upon Roger Ailes, Lee Atwater, and Limbaugh with awe

Olbermann's analogy is spot on. This is how this stuff happens. In fact, Olbermann's analogy is way too soft. These fuckheads are deliberately rejecting The First Amendment. This is the Holy Grail of the US Constitution. Fuck them and the horse they rode in on, and if Jefferson was alive today he'd make a much stronger analogy, one where he compares FOX/GOP to the Redcoats, which was enough for them to find the enemy and thrust a bayonet into their chests

This shit is serious. It's not like the Nazis weren't voted into power by people no different than the teabaggers. We've confused ourselves into letting the stigma of the concentration camps keep us from calling an apple an apple

[spoonitnow]

Cliff Notes:

[ ] Mosque
[ ] Ground Zero
[x] Continued usage of the Bill of Rights as toilet paper

[bikes]

PLAY FREE BIRD

[spoonitnow]

[wufwugy]

And that's why Republican propaganda is so successful. Deny rights (freedom of religion), get called out on it, incorrectly claim own rights are being denied (freedom of speech), throw tantrum until agenda achieved

[oskar]

It's a shame that this one center for cultural retardation has sparked this debate. Because there's a lot of good arguments to be made on either side, but this way it's going to be way too emotional. Those who oppose will be pinmarked as being fear mongering nazis, because a good chunk of them are.

My real issue with islam is islam as a political movement. It's not just all about worship - if it were, there would be no debate.

[wufwugy]

there are zero good arguments to be made on the wrong side

FYP. This isn't some kind of debate. Every single detail is a pure propaganda move based entirely on lies and political maneuvering.

[mbiz]

yeah after thinking more, this mosque is great in that it encourages americas to consider how far gone from they are from the ideals of their constitution and fucked up they are in cherry picking shit from it and ignoring the rest to suit whatever bigotry of the day is in vogue. a mosque welcome near ground zero would actually be a victory vs the silyl tarrists on the other side of the world

edit: i dont mean to sound america bashing, australia is pretty much as bad at the moment, we just dont have a constitution to compare the current state of society to. im sick of all this ultra conservative fearful politicking in both countries. even the good ones (obama) are to self defensive to really stick their neck out and risk their job by standing up for what they believe in

[mcatdog]

I find this subject depressing. A few months ago when European governments were banning minarets and burqas I thought, we have our share of problems, but at least this is something that wouldn't happen here. Most likely, it still won't because we have the First Amendment, but I can't say I'm as confident anymore.

[oskar]

Fighting religious oppression with political subjugation is not super smart, I give you that. As a religious group let them do whatever. Word has it that some women actually wear the burka out of freewill. idk that all of them are so lucky. The idea behind a burka ban is to empower the women who cannot make that choice. Realistically they are more likely to be locked up in their homes for as long as they stay in that country... so again, not the best move, but I digress.

The minaret ban thing afaik is just that. There are architectural restrictions in certain parts of the city, just so it doesn't become a total clusterfuck. As far as I'm aware they are still allowed to build mosques like wherever and are free to place their minarets a couple of miles down the road. Same goes for churches. They aren't building them with bell towers in the inner city anymore because they aren't allowed to ring them anyway. Where was the international press when that passed? Fuck the catholic church, amirite.

The moment a decision based on sharia law is passed in a court in this country is when I will openly stand against those medival fuckheads who are behind that (not generalizing all muslims, just the fuckheads). That was a year ago - basic wife beating. Husband acquitted because it was his right based on the set of laws that his wife agreed to live by when she was force married to him.

[Renton]

Yeah I was about to say, a burqa ban is about a little more than just simple bigotry.

[kevster]

Some comment from this side of the pond - Charlie Brooker | 'Ground Zero mosque'? The reality is less provocative | Comment is free | The Guardian

[spoonitnow]

Some comment from this side of the pond - Charlie Brooker | 'Ground Zero mosque'? The reality is less provocative | Comment is free | The Guardian

That was hilarious.

[Monsieur_chat]

That was hilarious.

That's because Charlie Brooker is the daddeh.

[kevster]

That's because Charlie Brooker is the daddeh.

Yep. Charlie Brooker FTW.

[Renton]

Great post, that's pretty much exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't really articulate.

The obvious counter-argument to that is to say that "well this is America, damnit, and we subject ourselves to higher standards than that of Islam dominated countries." I think thats the argument 90% of the people in this thread are making. And a big part of me agrees with that argument.

This issue kind of reminds me of the airport security racial profiling debate. To me it's silly to ban profiling. An airport screener should definitely give more attention to someone wearing full towel regalia (ITS NOT RACIST TO SAY THAT PHRASE, ITS JUST FUNNY), as empirical data on terrorism has shown that they are primarily people of middle eastern descent. Yeah it sucks that an entire group of people in this country has to wait a couple more minutes at airports than the rest of us, but that's just life. Deal with it. It's better than downgrading the performance of airport security just to be a bit more tolerant. Of course, the argument is moot anyway because having copious amounts of security at an airport is pretty pointless. If people really care enough to cause an incident, they'll get the job done.

[BooG690]

So Deuce Blue is suggesting we run America similar to how Mecca is run? Or what was the point of even bringing that up? "Oh look, no other religions are allowed there..." so we shouldn't allow them here, amirite!?!?!

[Renton]

He's not suggesting that at all. He's merely pointing out the irony in the fact that the most intolerant, oppressive, and prohibitive major religion in the world is demanding acceptance.

[BooG690]

K. It's ironic.

Sadly, it doesn't do much for the argument.

[CoccoBill]

Sounds like he's suggesting we should treat them eye for an eye. Maybe also train some holy soldiers at bible camp to go blow themselves up downtown Tehran or Dubai or whichever terrorist muslim country.

[Renton]

Well according to a completely laissez faire point of view, there simply is no counter argument, so what else can one say really except that they think Islam is tehgay and that they shouldn't have a suicide bomber factory installed near WTC?

[BooG690]

And again, let me remind you all that IT'S NOT ON OR IN GROUND ZERO. You may say it's in proximity, but then we have to define "in proximity." Maybe Muslims shouldn't be allowed to be on Manhattan island at all, right?

[Renton]

It's obviously a judgement call what constitutes "near ground zero." I think it sucks too how this issue was cleverly framed by the right wing manipulators that a muslim community center with a prayer room several blocks from ground zero was spun into a "ground zero mosque."

I do though find it kind of funny that people's arguments are simply marginalizing the concept of a ground zero mosque, instead of doing what they should be doing and going the libertarian angle.

It seems to me like strongest argument is just to say "hey this is america, let people do what they want so long as it isn't against the law." Once you cave in and start talking about the fact that its not REALLY even a mosque and its not REALLY even that close, aren't you kind of arguing at their inferior level?

[a500lbgorilla]

It's obviously a judgement call what constitutes "near ground zero." I think it sucks too how this issue was cleverly framed by the right wing manipulators that a muslim community center with a prayer room several blocks from ground zero was spun into a "ground zero mosque."

Nutballs - This is holy, hallowed ground!
Realistically inclined - What?
Nutballs - NO MOSQUE! NO MOSQUE! NO MOSQUE!
Realistically inclined - Hmm... Maybe I'll get some reading done tonight.

It seems to me like strongest argument is just to say "hey this is america, let people do what they want so long as it isn't against the law." Once you cave in and start talking about the fact that its not REALLY even a mosque and its not REALLY even that close, aren't you kind of arguing at their inferior level?

It's akin to saying evolution is fact to creationists. I'd love for everyone to ignore this lousy issue and move on to something with substance. What's your opinion on this: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es-182098.html

[boost]

Once you cave in and start talking about the fact that its not REALLY even a mosque and its not REALLY even that close, aren't you kind of arguing at their inferior level?

well, no. It's a common and accepted debate tactic to state your higher level debunking of their silly claims, but then step down and say "even if XYZ were as you say, still this that and the other." So I think when the proximity is argued it is just assumed that the listener/reader understands that it is prefixed by "this is america, damnit... buuuuuuut even if..."

[a500lbgorilla]

A man that said shortly after the 9/11 attacks:"I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened,”

Ron Paul?

edit

Now all this being said I have no hatred of Muslim people or the religion of Islam.

But you do have something towards the Muslim people and the religion of Islam. It shines through in your last two posts.

[Deuce Blue]

Ron Paul?

edit



But you do have something towards the Muslim people and the religion of Islam. It shines through in your last two posts.

Yea, I may not think highly of the Muslim religion. Stoning of little girls and such get under my skin. But if they aren't strapping on vest they can do what they wish. Sharia law is a violation of everything I think America stands for. Whatever... Just because I don't agree with the tenants of a religion doesn't make me a hater of the people that chose to practice it.

[BennyLaRue]

Would it be ok to build a Christian church in proximity to the Oklahoma City bombing site?

McVeigh and Nichols were Christians, of course. If not by practice, then culturally.

[Deuce Blue]

Would it be ok to build a Christian church in proximity to the Oklahoma City bombing site?

McVeigh and Nichols were Christians, of course. If not by practice, then culturally.

They didn't do it for a religious purpose. Apples and Oranges.

[BennyLaRue]

They didn't do it for a religious purpose. Apples and Oranges.

The 9/11 guys weren't representatives of Islam. They didn't do it for a religious purpose, just as the Oklahoma City guys didn't do it for a political purpose (want me to get into how they were representing Conservatives/Republicans?). Both groups did what they did for incredibly selfish and personal, INDIVIDUAL reasons, regardless of how they themselves viewed their actions. Throw whatever veil you want on it but you cannot take the intent of individuals and generalize a population they happened to belong to and make them all own it.

[BennyLaRue]

I also think it's funny that there are Muslim services held in the new chapel at the Pentagon and nobody is saying boo. That's not close proximity, that's IN the fucking place. Should they be booted? Threatened?

None of it means anything. Focus on important stuff.

[bigred]

None of it means anything. Focus on important stuff like jersey shore and lindsey lohan

fyp

[BennyLaRue]

None of it means anything. Focus on important stuff like fucking your wife, one-liners, expanding your mind and connecting with nature.

FMP

[bigred]

I don't want to fuck your wife, that sounds rude

[BennyLaRue]

Then UG's wife. She's hot. That's important.

[bigred]

Benny, high five on our derail!

[BennyLaRue]

Benny, high five on our derail!

We should work together more often. We shouldn't fight. We can be like the [insert stereotypically black and white dudes overcoming differences together reference] of FTR.

[Deanglow]

building this mosque is like building a straight bar next to bigred