OccupyWallStreet

[bigred]

There isn't much, if any, evidence of that. All the evidence is on the side of the cops busting them up and the media whining about hippies

People illegally walking in the streets sounds like antagonizing the police, no?

[a500lbgorilla]

People illegally walking in the streets sounds like antagonizing the police, no?

Have you been to NYC?

[wufwugy]

hundreds of people rarely protest peacefully. theres always those few people who fuck it up for everyone.

That is true, but I have yet to see any evidence that this warrants the attention this has gotten

Yeah, not sure I've heard of any of the protesters actually antagonizing officers. They ARE, however, breaking laws. I'm not sure it calls for the reaction by police. Whatever, adds fuel to the fire imp and garners media attention.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're breaking some unconstitutional laws. I mean technically if a cop forces you to block traffic, he can arrest you. That's the kind of thing that's happening

The videos of the one cop with the mace the other day should have made all of this clear. Conclusive evidence of protesters doing NOTHING then a chief cop walking up, macing them (and other cops) then walking away. More than once. This is not crowd control, it's actually assault, and the guy should be put on trial. But he won't be because the banks "donate" money to his precinct

[a500lbgorilla]

manufacture recessions, manufacture wars, manufacture conflicts of all kinds, pit the people against each other, turn society into survivormode, then watch as citizens do your dirty work in order to feed their families while you sip 1000$ wine from your private jet

Anyways, this is levels of lol. There is no cabal of any power which could plan and execute what you're attributing to the non-99%. Only a lot of individual actors could accidentally lead to what hindsight could describe as what you're getting at. <--- totally legit sentence.

[wufwugy]

People illegally walking in the streets sounds like antagonizing the police, no?

They're being corralled. The cops have been designating protest routes and stations, and today they entrapped them into an enclosure that couldn't hold capacity, then lo n behold traffic is magically being blocked, then lo n behold arrest all these new criminals

[wufwugy]

Anyways, this is levels of lol. There is no cabal of any power which could plan and execute what you're attributing to the non-99%. Only a lot of individual actors could accidentally lead to what hindsight could describe as what you're getting at. <--- totally legit sentence.

It's not a cabal, it's basics of centralizing power. We do know that what I said is reality

[a500lbgorilla]

It's not a cabal, it's basics of centralizing power. We do know that what I said is reality

lol nope. My cabal = your centralized power.

[a500lbgorilla]

Which is to say, even if you wanted to call it the basics (ha) of centralizing power, that would require some thing to centralize power around. And there's no cabal of any authority which could plan and execute what you're attributing to them. Only a lot of people acting essentially independently which hindsight allows for you to describe as you have above.

[wufwugy]

lol nope. My cabal = your centralized power.

Central banking does manufacture recessions, among many other forms of thievery. War and oil contractors do manufacture wars, and politicians and corporate media do manufacture conflict. It's not entirely nefarious, often a chicken or egg problem, and a whole lot of it is in no way cabalistic. But it is what happens

National finance, war, energy, and a whole lot of other stuff is privatized

[wufwugy]

Which is to say, even if you wanted to call it the basics (ha) of centralizing power, that would require some thing to centralize power around. And there's no cabal of any authority which could plan and execute what you're attributing to them. Only a lot of people acting essentially independently which hindsight allows for you to describe as you have above.

Yeah thats basically right. The Federal Reserve and Iraq War are excellent examples of what I mentioned

[a500lbgorilla]

Central banking does manufacture recessions, among many other forms of thievery. War and oil contractors do manufacture wars, and politicians and corporate media do manufacture conflict. It's not entirely nefarious, often a chicken or egg problem, and a whole lot of it is in no way cabalistic. But it is what happens

National finance, war, energy, and a whole lot of other stuff is privatized

I like how scientists say they broke the speed of light and they point out we have two separate clocks timing the event, timing events with two separate clocks, on a nanosecond scale is lol difficult. Our shit's probably effed. Please tell us how.

Banks do manufacture recessions? You think this recession was manufactured? You think Lehmann Bro's manufactured themselves out of existence? No, it was the Fed, then?

I'd believe Bush and Chenney and Rumsfeld manufactured war, but I'm pretty sure contractors just tried to make the best of what the gov was doing. And beyond that, Bush et al would have been making 'the best' of what was going on.

The framework of individual actors moving largely independently is more robust than all these actors moving towards some nefarious end.

[a500lbgorilla]

Yeah thats basically right. The Federal Reserve and Iraq War are excellent examples of what I mentioned

This confuses me because I think I'm saying that you're wrong.

[wufwugy]

This confuses me because I think I'm saying that you're wrong.

It's because it is mostly a process of independent actions that sometimes converge because that's simply what happens

[a500lbgorilla]

So what I'm saying is that there's no one enemy. Which sucks for the occupy wallstreet peeps. You can only say, "from our position, shit really sucks." But there's no way of saying that this or that will fix what is a clusterfuck of a problem. All this occupy wallst stuff can do is empower some politicians who we all hope have a much deeper understanding than you or I of the problem to enact a really capable solution.

[a500lbgorilla]

It's because it is mostly a process of independent actions that sometimes converge because that's simply what happens

lol simply

[wufwugy]

So what I'm saying is that there's no one enemy. Which sucks for the occupy wallstreet peeps. You can only say, "from our position, shit really sucks." But there's no way of saying that this or that will fix what is a clusterfuck of a problem. All this occupy wallst stuff can do is empower some politicians who we all hope have a much deeper understanding than you or I of the problem to enact a really capable solution.

The problems are well known IMO. Mainly private ownership of the financial system and legalized bribery of the political system. The USD isn't even a public currency. It's privately controlled, and taxpayers subsidize uncountable funds to its controllers

[bikes]

if i read one more "i am the 99%" i am going to punt a damn baby.

[wufwugy]

pretty sure that baby would be a 99%er

[Penneywize]

I like how wuf is making it sound like all these protesters are everyday people and not guys who just love to protest like it's a fucking hobby of theirs.

[a500lbgorilla]

LOL

people like that don't exist in America.

[wufwugy]

I like how wuf is making it sound like all these protesters are everyday people and not guys who just love to protest like it's a fucking hobby of theirs.

There's a variety. The amount of hippies in there is actually a bit less than our picture of what got Vietnam protests going. Simply due to how things work, hippies are the most likely to protest, then young people who can't get work, then older people who've gotten laid off, that sort of thing. Some video has shown some of the protesters express concern that the hippies are even there since it paints a picture most people don't identify with.

Regardless, it's all as it should be. I'm not just saying that. The people who get hit the hardest are the ones who come out first, it's always like that. And those who have gotten hit the hardest are students, so they're the first there

[wufwugy]

[BooG690]

New York Observer: Exclusive "Occupy Wall Street" Unaired Fox Footage - YouTube

[Galapogos]

New York Observer: Exclusive "Occupy Wall Street" Unaired Fox Footage - YouTube

Good shit, for some reason I really didn't expect that guy to be so well spoken.

[Sasquach991]

Really?

Proposed List Of Demands For Occupy Wall St Movement! | OccupyWallSt.org Forum

[bikes]

I tried not to cackle while reading that but I couldn't make it through demand #1

[BooG690]

Note the keyword here: proposed.

I agree that a lot of that list is a bunch of hippy shit that just makes OccupyWallSt look like a socialist movement. Hopefully it gets fixed.

[wufwugy]

What's wrong with demanding stuff that should have been standard a long time ago?

[wufwugy]

Demand one: Restoration of the living wage. This demand can only be met by ending "Freetrade" by re-imposing trade tariffs on all imported goods entering the American market to level the playing field for domestic family farming and domestic manufacturing as most nations that are dumping cheap products onto the American market have radical wage and environmental regulation advantages. Another policy that must be instituted is raise the minimum wage to twenty dollars an hr.

Not touching this one as it's very complicated. I probably agree with the sentiments, but differ on how to enact the policy

demand two: Institute a universal single payer healthcare system. To do this all private insurers must be banned from the healthcare market as their only effect on the health of patients is to take money away from doctors, nurses and hospitals preventing them from doing their jobs and hand that money to wall st. investors.

Great. Not only do the people our economic contrust designates as the winners have this, but it's a moral good, eliminates a ton of waste, and energizes the economy

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Fantastic. Should have happened back when FDR wanted it. Establishment wealthy always loathes this kind of thing, also normal people don't even like the idea since they because they mistakenly believe it's a hand-out. However, this kind of thing is enormously powerful for an economy, as well as another moral imperative

Demand four: Free college education.

Absolutely necessary. Especially now with manufacturing paradigm shift where low-skill jobs don't pay more than high-education jobs anymore. The bottom line is that a society's economic health is largely dependent upon the populace getting the education they need. Again, another moral imperative as well

Demand five: Begin a fast track process to bring the fossil fuel economy to an end while at the same bringing the alternative energy economy up to energy demand.

This is basically right, but I don't care because global climate catastrophe will not be stopped

Demand six: One trillion dollars in infrastructure (Water, Sewer, Rail, Roads and Bridges and Electrical Grid) spending now.

More of the same fantastic, royalty-class already have it, moral imperative, enormous boom to economy, etc

Demand seven: One trillion dollars in ecological restoration planting forests, reestablishing wetlands and the natural flow of river systems and decommissioning of all of America's nuclear power plants.

I guess. Won't do anything to avert catastrophe like people think

Demand eight: Racial and gender equal rights amendment.

Yes

Demand nine: Open borders migration. anyone can travel anywhere to work and live.

Sadly, this is way above pay grade. It should happen, but it won't

Demand ten: Bring American elections up to international standards of a paper ballot precinct counted and recounted in front of an independent and party observers system.

We only complain about money in politics because rigged electronic machines haven't taken over the election process yet. After that happens....

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

Excellent sentiment, but impractical. It will never happen because the primary reason rich people even exist is because of debt.

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Not sure what they're getting at

Demand thirteen: Allow all workers to sign a ballot at any time during a union organizing campaign or at any time that represents their yeah or nay to having a union represent them in collective bargaining or to form a union.

Yay

[bigred]

I'd love to hear how this is going to be paid for...


Wuf, why is a living wage regardless of employment a good thing?

Also, don't see anything in those demands about our foreign policy which has hands down been one of the biggest burdens on our economy.

[bigred]

Also, what's the deal with erasing debt and credit agencies? Sounds like a get out of jail free for people who spent above their means.

[wufwugy]

I'd love to hear how this is going to be paid for...

Virtually all of it pays for itself. Just not exactly immediately. But like if you want the economy to be doing better 20 years from now, infrastructure and education investments are the main ways to do it. Even if it's a lot of money now, not doing it loses a greater sum down the road. Change would need to be gradual, but we could certainly pay for it with good policy. Even up front with great policy. Keep in mind there's more wealth now than ever before. It's just that people don't wanna share

Wuf, why is a living wage regardless of employment a good thing?

Well, first, it's just a moral imperative. But for economic reasons, it's just a fantastic investment. Poor people are an economic burden on a society.

Also, don't see anything in those demands about our foreign policy which has hands down been one of the biggest burdens on our economy.

I think maybe they're trying to keep it more focused, and adding foreign policy would open the doors for everything.

[bigred]

I tried not to cackle while reading that but I couldn't make it through demand #1

I feel like this demand list legitimized people laughing at these protests.

Quick poll, what would be more useful?

A) Protesting and draining savings funds, taking donations, and causing a general ruckus that will draw public sentiment but will accomplish...?

B) Don't like the people representing you? Get involved in politics and work from the bottom up. Start a real political movement.


I realize B is long and may not amount to anything but does anyone really see any sort of radical change coming from a few angry hippies camping and singing kumbaya while the rest of us go to work?

[bigred]

Disclaimer: The infrastructure and environment demands are fantastic.

[bigred]

Also, I think free education would be a great thing. The poor are double penalized for higher education by a) not being able to afford it and b) not being able to compete with other college applicants due to a myriad of constraints due to poverty.

I think your argument for a living wage is along the same lines. Maximizing human capital by digging them out of their poverty holes. I just can't shake the feeling of giving "low lifes" and other "moochers" a free ride. I'd love to see some economic predictions of how a living wage would effect the country at a macro and micro level.

I think a lot of it comes down to whether you believe people inherently want to work hard, are good people, etc and the pessimist in me cringes at the thought of a living wage.

[wufwugy]

Also, what's the deal with erasing debt and credit agencies? Sounds like a get out of jail free for people who spent above their means.

It's actually the opposite. Our view of debt is very wrong. We see it as people spending beyond their means, but that's actually not really what happens, and the real problems of debt are much deeper economic constructs. It's very tough to nutshell, but the bottom line is that perpetual systemic debt is imposed on the masses

The real "issues" here are that the thieving creditors don't want chickens to come home and roost. People don't spend beyond their means, they spend what they believe their means to be. The brainwashing is that credit cards and mortgages were as good as money and that people were investing smartly. Then that paradigm gets changed under people's feet, then lo n behold people are "spending beyond their means".

[wufwugy]

I feel like this demand list legitimized people laughing at these protests.

Quick poll, what would be more useful?

A) Protesting and draining savings funds, taking donations, and causing a general ruckus that will draw public sentiment but will accomplish...?

B) Don't like the people representing you? Get involved in politics and work from the bottom up. Start a real political movement.


I realize B is long and may not amount to anything but does anyone really see any sort of radical change coming from a few angry hippies camping and singing kumbaya while the rest of us go to work?

Those aren't mutually exclusive, and they're both what's being done.

[bigred]

It's actually the opposite. Our view of debt is very wrong. We see it as people spending beyond their means, but that's actually not really what happens, and the real problems of debt are much deeper economic constructs. It's very tough to nutshell, but the bottom line is that perpetual systemic debt is imposed on the masses

I can't believe I'm saying this (world asplodes) but can you elaborate?

[wufwugy]

Also, I think free education would be a great thing. The poor are double penalized for higher education by a) not being able to afford it and b) not being able to compete with other college applicants due to a myriad of constraints due to poverty.

I think your argument for a living wage is along the same lines. Maximizing human capital by digging them out of their poverty holes. I just can't shake the feeling of giving "low lifes" and other "moochers" a free ride. I'd love to see some economic predictions of how a living wage would effect the country at a macro and micro level.

I think a lot of it comes down to whether you believe people inherently want to work hard, are good people, etc and the pessimist in me cringes at the thought of a living wage.

Well, first off, it can be constructed in such a way that everybody gets it, no matter how rich or poor. It would also not be a whole lot. There's a big difference between making sure somebody has shelter, food, and access to education and work-capacity vs subsidizing mansions and joy rides

Also, I think we should clean up our own destructive shit before we oppress the poor even more. The amount of corporate welfare, tax giveaways, and financial tricks that the tax payers have subsidized for the uber rich are astronomically greater than anything we've done for the poor. People don't realize that they're trading helping the poor for giving the rich free blowjobs

Anyways, the evidence suggests that financial incentives for people succeeding are nothing like personal and social incentives. The whole paying for people to be lazy drags on society is just an enormous myth. In fact, there's evidence that suggests that financial incentives actually produce worse results than no financial incentive. We do stuff because we're social and proud animals, but we've been brainwashed into thinking we really do stuff because we want that dollah dollah bill yo. More like if you don't slave for the dollar, you're sleeping under the bridge, so we all do it, then there's a misfiring of understanding why we do it

[Micro2Macro]

I tried not to cackle while reading that but I couldn't make it through demand #1

lol +1

in all fairness though when negotiating something its best to start with a deal that represents what U want and then shift towards what the other party wants till each is satisfied with a middle ground.

idk if the middle of this is even close to realistic tho

[wufwugy]

I can't believe I'm saying this (world asplodes) but can you elaborate?

I'm not the best to elaborate since I think I'd have to be a Joseph Stiglitz level savvy to understand it all, but I'll make two points

1. Currency is debt. Maybe it doesn't have to be, but ours is. The privately owned Federal Reserve prints it, inflates it, lends it at interest, and does so on the back of the Treasury and taxpayers. The financial system is partially a fraudulent scheme of fabricating money and lending it. We are all in debt to central bankers. A theory is that JFK was assassinated because he tried to stop the Fed thievery with Executive Order 11110. I don't know how true all the nefarious central banking stuff is throughout the world's history, but it certainly seems like something big is there

2. There has been a boom in credit over the last couple decades without any real backing. The reason this happened was because people were getting poorer, but yet they still had to play the game of cyclical consumption. It's a double whammy for the banks/megacorps because they got to pay people less while increasing those peoples' indebtedness. This is systemic usury on an entire economy of people

[wufwugy]

lol +1

in all fairness though when negotiating something its best to start with a deal that represents what U want and then shift towards what the other party wants till each is satisfied with a middle ground.

idk if the middle of this is even close to realistic tho

It may not be feasible, by why does everybody get their panties in a wad over trying to make things more equal. All this stuff is stuff that a special few have by the private jet-loads. I, for one, do not support anybody's desire to live like a Sultan because it's on the backs of the masses

[Micro2Macro]

Not touching this one as it's very complicated. I probably agree with the sentiments, but differ on how to enact the policy

I don't think increasing min wage to some astronomical amount will be much good espec if they are asking for free post secondary education...its seems kind of counter intuitive to raise min wage like this. free education should be a higher priority

Great. Not only do the people our economic contrust designates as the winners have this, but it's a moral good, eliminates a ton of waste, and energizes the economy

+1

Fantastic. Should have happened back when FDR wanted it. Establishment wealthy always loathes this kind of thing, also normal people don't even like the idea since they because they mistakenly believe it's a hand-out. However, this kind of thing is enormously powerful for an economy, as well as another moral imperative

no comment


Absolutely necessary. Especially now with manufacturing paradigm shift where low-skill jobs don't pay more than high-education jobs anymore. The bottom line is that a society's economic health is largely dependent upon the populace getting the education they need. Again, another moral imperative as well

agree with one condition - I think that there should be some sort of education tax taken out of peoples incomes if they make like 250k+ a year (or some other figure). nothing huge but 1-2k or 0.05% or something. this would be on top of whatever income tax already is.


This is basically right, but I don't care because global climate catastrophe will not be stopped

I am not qualified for an opinion on this but I read in an Edward Glaser book about cities that suburbs are a huge fucking problem in regards to the environment. (due to cars and large houses filled with tons of large appliances and electronics that just rip through energy). to sum things up, its not just the power sources that fuck shit up, IT THE 99% WHO USE IT


More of the same fantastic, royalty-class already have it, moral imperative, enormous boom to economy, etc

meh. if they can't come up with the money for this, perhaps getting the fuck out of the middle east would help.


I guess. Won't do anything to avert catastrophe like people think

I think this demand is absurd. nuclear power isn't as bad as people think. the media just created a huge shit storm because of that plant in japan getting hit by a wave or something and now 99% of americans think nuclear power will end the world.


Yes

+1 of course. this is a very realistic demand and there isn't really any reason why it can't be met

Sadly, this is way above pay grade. It should happen, but it won't

lol, there are def more important things unless I am missing something.


We only complain about money in politics because rigged electronic machines haven't taken over the election process yet. After that happens....

meh



Excellent sentiment, but impractical. It will never happen because the primary reason rich people even exist is because of debt.

this one is funny


Not sure what they're getting at

a lot of the protesters probably don't have a job and have their credit cards and shit maxed out from buying shit they don't need so they want to erase this so they are on level ground with people who are more financially responsible when it comes to borrowing. pretty ignorant of them to demand something like this but I guess it's not as unrealistic as asking for 1 trillion dollars to be spent on planting trees



Yay

.

[wufwugy]

Agreed with like 95% of that

Couple things

If we're gonna avoid incredible environmental catastrophe, planting a SHITLOAD of trees might be the only way to do it. All that carbon being returned to the atmosphere has to go somewhere. Sadly I wouldn't be surprised if there's not enough land on the planet to sequester enough of the GHG's that are awakening from the Earth's depths

I generally disagree with people hating on nuclear power. It's not like stuff like coal isn't enormously more destructive historically, but also nuclear power is fantastic if it's not corrupted. Problem is that it's normally corrupted. But again it doesn't matter in the long run since 100% of recoverable and economical fossil fuels will be burnt no matter what

[BooG690]

What's wrong with demanding stuff that should have been standard a long time ago?

Demanding a bunch of stuff like a living wage regardless of employment and a do-over on debt just gives people a reason to laugh at this movement. Hell, I'm starting to laugh at it due to this list and the massive amount of hipsters/hippies at this protest with nothing better to do that don't understand what this movement is really about.

I agree with Bigred in that the idea of a living wage regardless of employment and a debt do-over are both negatives. People sitting on their asses doing nothing with said minimum wage would irk people pretty hard, including myself. I understand that having one, in the macro sense, would most likely be good for the economy. However, having it on the proposed list simply turns off some would-be supporters of this cause. Having it instated would benefit a whole lot of people that are simply living off hand-outs.

It's actually the opposite. Our view of debt is very wrong. We see it as people spending beyond their means, but that's actually not really what happens, and the real problems of debt are much deeper economic constructs. It's very tough to nutshell, but the bottom line is that perpetual systemic debt is imposed on the masses

The real "issues" here are that the thieving creditors don't want chickens to come home and roost. People don't spend beyond their means, they spend what they believe their means to be. The brainwashing is that credit cards and mortgages were as good as money and that people were investing smartly. Then that paradigm gets changed under people's feet, then lo n behold people are "spending beyond their means".

I totally disagree. Idiots use credit cards incorrectly. Hell, I think you're a sucker if you use a credit card period. The people that got themselves in debt never educated themselves on how to properly use one. It's their own goddamn fault. Obviously the issuing bank is looking to deceive them into using as much credit as possible and then owning their ass. That's simply their business. I agreed with Obama's push against banks and their practices to make it harder for them to own people but a get-out-of-jail free card is ridiculous.

Wuf, I understand you want things in this country to change. I do also. However, how is it that you agree with every single point on this list? You do know you CAN disagree with something here, correct? I don't know, it's just hard for me to believe you actually agree with everything put forth here.

I love you anyway though. I still support this cause...I just wish they hadn't put out this list for the media to bash and isolate would-be supporters.

[BooG690]

Demand twelve: Outlaw all credit reporting agencies.

Not sure what they're getting at

Credit agencies are accused of being rigged towards certain demographics. Who needs credit agencies when, no matter what, debts will be erased, amirite!?!?!?

[wufwugy]

Demanding a bunch of stuff like a living wage regardless of employment and a do-over on debt just gives people a reason to laugh at this movement. Hell, I'm starting to laugh at it due to this list and the massive amount of hipsters/hippies at this protest with nothing better to do that don't understand what this movement is really about.

But why are those funny? They're substantially better policy than the current paradigm. Our construct mandates massive debt and unemployment. There are better ways to fix this, but the proposed ways are still better than keeping the exact same horribly destructive model we have.

FWIW, I prefer employment/education mandates instead of living wages. That fixes the entire "sitting on ass" problem (which really wouldn't be much of a problem, but I already made some points on that). Bottom line is that there is ENORMOUS capacity in the society, but it's mostly wasted. The main reason this exists is because surplus of laborers is hugely beneficial for large business owner's bottom lines.

In the perfect world, I disagree with living wage, as mandatory employment would work incredibly way better. However, a living wage is immensely better than the current paradigm of oppression, devastated capacity, and thievery. Make a law that the government must hire anybody who wants a job, and the economy would go bonkers awesome. But again, uber rich establishments would become less uber rich due to competition and a tight labor market and some times of a wee bit higher taxes, so it won't happen

I totally disagree. Idiots use credit cards incorrectly. Hell, I think you're a sucker if you use a credit card period. The people that got themselves in debt never educated themselves on how to properly use one. It's their own goddamn fault. Obviously the issuing bank is looking to deceive them into using as much credit as possible and then owning their ass. That's simply their business. I agreed with Obama's push against banks and their practices to make it harder for them to own people but a get-out-of-jail free card is ridiculous.

You partially just made my case. Regardless, blaming people for doing what sociology predicts they do is a mistake. This is a case of consumers being mislead. The masses can't be expected to be financial analysts and understand things so well that they can see through the lies that credit isn't real money (and that money itself isn't even "real money".) Like what happens if the USD crashes and then the people with real resources and commodities blame everybody else for "living beyond their means" because everybody knoooows that money wasn't real? It's not much different; we're taught that money has the value that we're taught it has, and we've been taught that credit lines and mortgages had a certain value as well, but then that value got pulled out from under us. Not to mention this was orchestrated. Some people saw through the bullshit, but the correct analysis is that the masses should not be expected to see through the bullshit

I don't want to blame a lumberjack for not knowing how to electrically wire a house, but I would blame a lumberjack if he deliberately manipulated his profession to take advantage of other people. That's what the bankers have done. They manipulated shit to help them and hurt us, then convinced us it was our fault. It's blaming the worker bees for not being queen bees

Wuf, I understand you want things in this country to change. I do also. However, how is it that you agree with every single point on this list? You do know you CAN disagree with something here, correct? I don't know, it's just hard for me to believe you actually agree with everything put forth here.

It's just because the stuff is better than the current paradigm. It really is. If I made a list, there would be striking differences, but that doesn't mean that the OWS list which proposes policy that steals from people less isn't good

I love you anyway though. I still support this cause...I just wish they hadn't put out this list for the media to bash and isolate would-be supporters.

I kind of agree, but am not sure. Haters gonna hate, that kinda thing. Corporate media will bash them no matter what, and frankly I don't see any conservatives jumping their ship. I think we do need to find a way to bring conservatives and liberals (Tea Party sympathizers and OWS sympathizers) together, since the bottom line is something we all agree on i.e. removing the wealthy's influence on politics

[wufwugy]

Also, would just like to add that forgiving all debt would hurt the top 1% the most and benefit the poorest the most. Perpetual debt on the non-rich is a very real thing. And to make somebody think I'm invoking Godwin's Law, WW2 happened because of Germany's debt, and that's most of the story. Debt is an enormously destructive perpetuating cycle. Some aspects of debt are arguably beneficial, but most of it is nothing other than a reverse Robin Hood

[bigred]

Jared Bernstein: Occupy Wall St.: This Is Not a Head Scratcher

[bigred]

We Are the 99 Percent

[DropTheBanana]

We Are the 99 Percent

Makes me feel terrible for some of the things I complain about.

[wufwugy]

Jared Bernstein: Occupy Wall St.: This Is Not a Head Scratcher

Fucking A

It's like accusing somebody at the grocery store of not knowing what they want because they're getting a variety of things

[!Luck]

Thought to comment, decided to masturbate instead.


$20hr LOL, free education for all.

WTF is moral imperative? I have never trolled, but this is fucking ridiculous.

[boost]

Thought to comment, decided to masturbate instead.


$20hr LOL, free education for all.

WTF is moral imperative? I have never trolled, but this is fucking ridiculous.

$20hr seems very arbitrary, but I think the idea is for everyone to have a livable wage. What is laughable and "fucking ridiculous" about a livable wage and free education?

[wufwugy]

Thought to comment, decided to masturbate instead.


$20hr LOL, free education for all.

WTF is moral imperative? I have never trolled, but this is fucking ridiculous.

Naw, you're right. Only the people who the inherently unfair system favor should have good income and education. Humanity is pure survival of the fittest. If you have it better than other people it's because you are a better person and you deserve it.

[bikes]

Naw, you're right. Only the people who the inherently unfair system favor should have good income and education. Humanity is pure survival of the fittest. If you have it better than other people it's because you are a better person and you deserve it.

social darwinism says you should be drawn and quartered

[eugmac]

$20/hr minimum wage strikes me as borderline ridiculous, but I don't see how people can scoff at the idea that education should be free for all.

[bigred]

5 Facts You Should Know About the Wealthiest One Percent of Americans | Economy | AlterNet

[rong]

5 Facts You Should Know About the Wealthiest One Percent of Americans | Economy | AlterNet

Intersting. I'd like to see simiklar data on the UK. I imagine it would present a similar picture.

[ensign_lee]

Holy F O.o at the demands.

I was actually pretty supportive of Occupy Wall Street before they published that...wtf. Completely unrealistic.

Their very first demand is to demand a protectionist state? Clearly these people have no understanding of economics and how that hurts *everyone*.

I'm not even going to focus on the other demands because that by itself is so stupid as to nullify any support from anyone with even the most elementary education of economics. Oi.

[BooG690]

Let's remember this is just a proposed list of demands that probably shouldn't have been published on a webpage when they just started to get the media attention they wanted.

I'm hoping the final list of demands is more focused and...smarter.

[boost]

Holy F O.o at the demands.

I was actually pretty supportive of Occupy Wall Street before they published that...wtf. Completely unrealistic.

Their very first demand is to demand a protectionist state? Clearly these people have no understanding of economics and how that hurts *everyone*.

I'm not even going to focus on the other demands because that by itself is so stupid as to nullify any support from anyone with even the most elementary education of economics. Oi.

You do realize that this list is simply a post on a public forum, right? You do realize that this is a grassroots movement with no organized central structure, right?

[wufwugy]

Thinking on the demands with a fresh mind, I definitely see now how a lot of it is silly. Not so much the wanting them part, but making them demands. This could be a simple case of liberals doing what we've been trying to get Obama to do all these years i.e. start in a strong position then negotiate from there, but perhaps not

So I think I'm gonna agree with you guys. While I agree with the "pie in the sky" sentiments of the demands, I'm not sure 1/3rd/half of them should be on there

[bigred]

Short post agreeing with us...wat

[BooG690]

Wufwugy's account recently got hacked by the government ldfo

[rong]

Did Wuf just acknowledge being wrong?

[wufwugy]

Reforming your position to new information and better logic is the only way to be right

[a500lbgorilla]

Reforming your position to new information and better logic is the only way to be right

Too true. Though, if you follow this sentiment to its logical end you'd recognize right in this context has little meaning.

[!Luck]

$20hr seems very arbitrary, but I think the idea is for everyone to have a livable wage. What is laughable and "fucking ridiculous" about a livable wage and free education?

Livable wage? WTF is that? How do you define this?

All of this just reeks of central planning. Plus, all these protest happening in America, one of the easiest countries to thrive is pretty funny.


Free education means, free college education. basically implies everyone can go to college. Is this even remotely realistic?

[a500lbgorilla]

Livable wage? WTF is that? How do you define this?

All of this just reeks of central planning. Plus, all these protest happening in America, one of the easiest countries to thrive is pretty funny.


Free education means, free college education. basically implies everyone can go to college. Is this even remotely realistic?

Too many people go to college now. If you're saddling up for a science degree, then it should be free because that is valueable to society as a whole... but there are a lot of degrees with nebulous value. Valuable people with degrees in philosophy or literature are probably just as valuable without.

[wufwugy]

Livable wage? WTF is that? How do you define this?

Easy. It's how much money an economy requires of its citizens in order to be healthy participants of the economy.

All of this just reeks of central planning.

You mean like highways? Central planning is an important aspect of any society. What we want, more or less, is a mixed economy. Which we have, but it's also way too heavy on some aspects

Plus, all these protest happening in America, one of the easiest countries to thrive is pretty funny.

See, that's called propaganda. Americans believe this because it's what we're told. However, according to statistics, among modern nations, USA is one of the most difficult ones in which to achieve

Free education means, free college education. basically implies everyone can go to college. Is this even remotely realistic?

Much healthier societies already do this. Which is an important reason why they're healthier

[!Luck]

Naw, you're right. Only the people who the inherently unfair system favor should have good income and education. Humanity is pure survival of the fittest. If you have it better than other people it's because you are a better person and you deserve it.

Nothing like going straight to ad hominem attacks.

It is delusional to think that life is fair. It isn't. There is the birth lottery, genetic lottery, the not get randomly hit by bus lottery, ect. It is a whole lot of shit in this world.

With all of the above we are lucky to have something. Deserve is a fucked up word. What does that mean? Does anyone deserves anything? The poor crack whore doesn't deserves to be a crack whore. The rich capitalist dosen't desrve to be rich. No one deserves shit.

The word deserve is only used to say poor person x doesn't have enough or rich person has too much. Who are you? Who is anyone to decide what one deserve?

Also, America is freaking nice. The things that are possible here is pretty amazing. This really is the land of opportunities, at least when I compare it to my family in Russia.

Attempting to even dissect their demands will make my head explode.

[!Luck]

Easy. It's how much money an economy requires of its citizens in order to be healthy participants of the economy.

How do you calculate this? How do you define "healthy participant of the economy"

You mean like highways? Central planning is an important aspect of any society. What we want, more or less, is a mixed economy. Which we have, but it's also way too heavy on some aspects

It reeks of the bad type of central planning, where most things, instead of "some" things are planned. Of all the things we discussed, I suspect you and I will be closest here. Cause I give FDR thumbs up for the highway system. I am not so naive to believe in unrestricted capitalism.

See, that's called propaganda. Americans believe this because it's what we're told. However, according to statistics, among modern nations, USA is one of the most difficult ones in which to achieve

I compare us vs. Russia, vs most of the old soviet block. Maybe, that's my reference point. Cause I am an immigrant after all. Maybe this is what colors all of my views.

Much healthier societies already do this. Which is an important reason why they're healthier

Examples. Also how do you define "healthier"?

[wufwugy]

Nothing like going straight to ad hominem attacks.

It is delusional to think that life is fair. It isn't. There is the birth lottery, genetic lottery, the not get randomly hit by bus lottery, ect. It is a whole lot of shit in this world.

With all of the above we are lucky to have something. Deserve is a fucked up word. What does that mean? Does anyone deserves anything? The poor crack whore doesn't deserves to be a crack whore. The rich capitalist dosen't desrve to be rich. No one deserves shit.

The word deserve is only used to say poor person x doesn't have enough or rich person has too much. Who are you? Who is anyone to decide what one deserve?

You made a case for egalitarianism.

Also, America is freaking nice. The things that are possible here is pretty amazing. This really is the land of opportunities, at least when I compare it to my family in Russia.

Compared to Russia, that is probably correct

How do you calculate this? How do you define "healthy participant of the economy"

It's calculated by living standards and living expenses. There are certain necessary standards to even have opportunity in the first place, and those standards have certain prices. I define healthy participant as somebody who moves both his life and the society forward. Economics is a cyclical thing, and it either moves forwards or backwards

Examples. Also how do you define "healthier"?

Healthier is defined by many aspects of living standards and some other stuff. Things like life expectancy, income equality, happiness indexes, and literacy rates are used to show correlations of healthier societies

Examples will be lots of European countries. Not all, but many like Norway and Germany and stuff. I don't keep up on any of the specifics of any of them, but US loses to lots of those countries in efficacy of virtually everything like health care, employment, education, happiness, etc. But even stuff like China and other "third world" developing countries have a lot of much more advanced infrastructure than US

[baudib]

We got a great picture of a cop spraying some guy at the protest, you'll see it tomorrow.