*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

[Poopadoop]

Also worth mentioning that white people making excuses for other white people's racist behaviour is pretty cringe.

[Poopadoop]

People are far too easily offended. That for me is a bigger social problem than people being dicks.

The problem is that there are still people out there who think that behaviour is acceptable.

[OngBonga]

I mean if Lady Oldface says "well you're clearly not British, where are you really from?" in a sneering tone then yes that's fucked up, but I don't believe this is what is happening at royal wine parties. Everyone there is trying to make a good impression so they get invited to future events. It's a very elite club that nobody wants to be kicked out of.

No malicious intent whatsoever. People need to take a step back and ask if it's really worth making a scene over. If someone is being a dick, then fair enough, but that isn't clear here and it's hard to believe it was intentional.

[OngBonga]

Presumably that's paraphrased. I've seen no transcript of the conversation, only Ngozi Fulani's claims on Twitter. And Fulani is claiming that actual offending comment was "where do your people come from" which was asked "repeatedly", presumably twice in slightly different ways. This lady seems to me to be clumsily making small talk and attempting to take an interest in Fulani's culture, noting that she's not dressed in typical British attire and is apparently inviting interest in her culture.

I mean this doesn't seem malicious to me at all, certainly not worthy of the reaction it's getting. This is completely bizarre and absurd.

[OngBonga]

First, she reached out and moved the black woman's hair so she could see her nametag.

Haven't seen that footage but ok, dick move.

In what universe do you go do that to someone you don't even know? Only in some colonial world of yore, not today's world.

This leap in logic is not helpful. If she's this kind of person, do you think she's treating me with any more respect? That you assume colonial racism because she's working for the royals, that's no better than applying stereotypes to others.

Then, she hectored her for a good five minutes about "where she was from, where are her people from etc.."

How do you know this? Is there footage of this because I need to see it. Having a five minute conversation with someone who is not enjoying the conversation is tedious and obvious. Especially if the entire five minutes is the same question rephrased. This is not believable.

She wasn't satisifed with the answer "I'm from Britain," and the implication of continuing is to ask is that she's an outsider.

I'm giving the old lady the benefit of the doubt in assuming that Fulani attire is what inspired this line of questioning, not the perceived idea she's an "outsider". If I wear a red and white striped top, a beret and carry a baguette under my arm people might think I'm from France, and might be confused when I tell them I'm from Solihull.

That's the kind of question this woman has probably been asked all her life - and it must get old.

If she's been wearing Barbadian attire all her life while living in Britain, then it would not surprise me if she was regularly asked where she's from.

The point is, it's not appropriate to keep after her after she already answered the question.

I might be willing to agree with you here, but I really need to see the footage that you clearly have seen, that shows a five minute and one-way conversation.

[Poopadoop]

This leap in logic is not helpful. If she's this kind of person, do you think she's treating me with any more respect? That you assume colonial racism because she's working for the royals, that's no better than applying stereotypes to others.

It's not a leap to think an old white woman who's in with the royals think she's better than a black person, even if only unconsciusly, and feels entitled to touch her hair.

I'm giving the old lady the benefit of the doubt in assuming that Fulani attire is what inspired this line of questioning, not the perceived idea she's an "outsider". If I wear a red and white striped top, a beret and carry a baguette under my arm people might think I'm from France, and might be confused when I tell them I'm from Solihull.

I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt too. I don't think she set out to be an ass, I think she's just ignorant and has some unconscious racism. I doubt if you were wearing a beret she'd pester you for five minutes about what part of France you came from after you told her you're British. But who knows, maybe she's really that stupid.

If she's been wearing Barbadian attire all her life while living in Britain, then it would not surprise me if she was regularly asked where she's from.

Makes sense if the old woman thinks Barbados is in Africa. She asked her "where in Africa are you from?"

I might be willing to agree with you here, but I really need to see the footage that you clearly have seen, that shows a five minute and one-way conversation.

All of what I reported is what the black woman herself said. If any of it is wrong, the old lady hasn't said anything to deny it. You'd think she'd be keen to correct the record if the black woman was hallucinating or otherwise making things up.

[OngBonga]

It's not just news. It's international news.

Old white woman asks black woman at UK party where she's from.

News in USA.

Bizarre as fuck.

[OngBonga]

It's only white people sticking up for her afaik.

This is an assumption that presumably is not backed up by any actual data.

I just scanned through the top replies with the word "Fulani", and it didn't take long to find a black woman criticising her. I'll stop at one. Carry on looking if you want to find more black people who think Fulani is an opportunistic race baiter doing more damage than good to the black cause.

https://twitter.com/KemiOwonibi/stat...60332225601536

It turns out Ngozi Fulani (real name Marlrne Headley) is an impõster answering appropriating Nigerian name, tribal name, culture, and identity. Dressed to Buckingham Palace like someone just exiting a shrine, she accused an elderly lady who took interest in her heritage of rãcism

It's not a leap to think an old white woman who's in with the royals think she's better than a black person, even if only unconsciusly, and feels entitled to touch her hair.

Such people probably exist. What's wrong with this is instantly assuming that's the motivation of anyone accused of speaking clumsily or inappropriately. You're applying a stereotype. "Well you're a Royal hanger-on so that means you're probably a racist colonist."

I don't think she set out to be an ass, I think she's just ignorant and has some unconscious racism.

Ignorant perhaps. But if we agree she's not trying to be an ass, why are we hearing about it? Why is it major news? Someone non-maliciously accidentally offended a woman at a wine party for rich and influential cunts, and that's something we need to know about and discuss on social media?

Makes sense if the old woman thinks Barbados is in Africa. She asked her "where in Africa are you from?"

Literally the first I've heard of the word "Africa" being mentioned.

All of what I reported is what the black woman herself said.

And you just blindly believe everything she is saying while condemning the old lady as a racist colonist?

I find it hard to believe such a conversation can happen for five minutes, like you claim. That's a long time to be asking the same question over and over while getting a negative response. It simply didn't happen for five minutes.

You'd think she'd be keen to correct the record...

She's an old lady and probably afraid of the backlash. Maybe she'll get to have her say in due course but I'd imagine this fuss is taking quite a toll on her. Of course people don't give a shit about that because she's a horrible racist white lady who dared to ask a British woman wearing not-British attire where she's from.

Fucking chancer, this woman is. Race baiting chancer. She's loving all this attention while the old lady hides in her house, forced into retirement, scared to answer her phone. That's how I see it, and why I'm defending the white lady somewhat. If she was being malicious and completely oblivious to a five minute awkward conversation then I'll stop defending her. I'm not defending a racist. I'm defending an old lady asking a clumsy, non-malicious question that is asked at parties everywhere.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Closest I could find to an actual video is 44 seconds long, and you can't hear the actual conversation between the 2 women.

Upon further inspection, this does seem to be a bit of a wind-up on Fulani's part.

Apparently she's the head of an African and Carribbean culture something something IDGAF. And introduced herself originally as such.
So it's not just that she's dressed in foreign attire, it's that she introduced herself with a title that kinda maybe would indicate she's from somewhere else.

Oldladyface def. shouldn't have asked "Where are you really from?" if that's the actual quote (I didn't hear her say it).
But it's not like she persecuted the woman.

[Poopadoop]

Closest I could find to an actual video is 44 seconds long, and you can't hear the actual conversation between the 2 women.

That's Fulani talking to Camilla, the Queen Consort or whatever her title is. Not the old lady whatserface, a different old lady.

Upon further inspection, this does seem to be a bit of a wind-up on Fulani's part.

She tweeted her side of the conversation, that's it. Then some people wanted to interview her, so she went.

Apparently she's the head of an African and Carribbean culture something something IDGAF. And introduced herself originally as such.

She founded a domestic abuse charity that caters to African and Caribbean women. She introduced herself as being from it.

I mean, fair enough, we haven't heard the other side of the story. But, the royal family apologised to Falani, as did Lady SH, and she resigned. So there's that.

[MadMojoMonkey]

That's Fulani talking to Camilla, the Queen Consort or whatever her title is. Not the old lady whatserface, a different old lady.

Oops. My bad.

She tweeted her side of the conversation, that's it. Then some people wanted to interview her, so she went.

LadySH: Where are you from?
Fulani: I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.

No scandal. Just 2 people cooperating in a conversation. LadySH could have been more PC with the questions, but Fulani was being standoff-ish with the answers, regardless.

She founded a domestic abuse charity that caters to African and Caribbean women. She introduced herself as being from it.

I mean, fair enough, we haven't heard the other side of the story. But, the royal family apologised to Falani, as did Lady SH, and she resigned. So there's that.

So there's what?
A rich family covering up any questions that might lead to uncovering that there was an actual story there? That the line of questioning was indicative of a greater sentiment? That LadySH was in the wrong?
What?

There's no indication of any conclusion above others. Just a hush-up.
Oh that lady that brought attention to us? We fired her. Please stop paying attention to us.

[Poopadoop]

LadySH: Where are you from?
Fulani: I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.

Why does she have to explain her heritage and descent? She's obviously African lol.

Lady TinEar should have taken her first answer as an indication she didn't want to go into her descent. It's irrelevant.

I mean fine, let's assume Lady TE is just a curious person with an interest in ethnography. If she's also sensitive to others feelings though, it might occur to her that her line of questioning is annoying the other person and she should let it go, not keep badgering her, then patronising her when she finally gets the answer she wants.

LadySH could have been more PC with the questions, but Fulani was being standoff-ish with the answers, regardless.

Because shes' been asked it a bunch of times by racists and her guard is up.

So there's what?
A rich family covering up any questions that might lead to uncovering that there was an actual story there? That the line of questioning was indicative of a greater sentiment? That LadySH was in the wrong?
What?

There's no indication of any conclusion above others. Just a hush-up.
Oh that lady that brought attention to us? We fired her. Please stop paying attention to us.

"Please stop pointing out the racist behaviour of our staff" lol.

[OngBonga]

Where does that transcript originate from btw? Is this fact checked?

[OngBonga]

I'm glad you've taken a reasonable position mojo. Assuming "where are you really from" is an accurate quote, that's really clumsy but not worthy of all the attention it's getting. If it's "where are your people from", that's less clumsy but still not very modern. That seems more like what a royal hanger-on would say, too. The "your people" could be a colonial relic in the language of royal types. That's what I think poop means when he says "unconscious racism" - the cultural terminology used in certain circles. I don't think anyone unconsciously thinks they are superior to others... that's a conscious thought.

The problem with this story being so huge is that people will now actually be afraid of asking people they meet where they're from, which is dreadful. 99% of the time when that question is asked, it is a sincere question being asked by someone interested in the person they are having a conversation with. Some people are proud of their culture and want to talk about it. Some people are glad when they're asked where they're from so they can enjoy some small talk about their home.

How do you navigate this minefield in 2022?

[OngBonga]

Why does she have to explain her heritage and descent? She's obviously African lol.

I mean, assuming where someone is from is an order of magnitude more offensive than asking someone where they're from.

Because shes' been asked it a bunch of times by racists and her guard is up.

lol every person who asks where she's from is a racist.

Fuck me poop you're so desperate for racism to exist that when someone says "wacism" you're licking the dirt off their boots.

[Poopadoop]

I mean, assuming where someone is from is an order of magnitude more offensive than asking someone where they're from.

Huh? Do you struggle to see this woman is of African descent?

lol every person who asks where she's from is a racist.

Reductio ad bananum.

Enough people who ask that question are doing it to make a point about race that it becomes a sore spot.

Fuck me poop you're so desperate for racism to exist that when someone says "wacism" you're licking the dirt off their boots.

It's more like you're so desperate for it not to exist that you'll look for any excuse to justify what is at best, highly insensitive, and at worst, racist.

[OngBonga]

you'll look for any excuse to justify what is at best, highly insensitive

I have to assume you're taking as fact that presentation of the conversation.

From my pov, where that convo is not necessarily factually accurate, "at best" this woman asked a normal question that is asked at parties everywhere and Fulani has taken offence. At best neither party have malicious intent and this is a huge misunderstanding taken way out of context. That's the "at best". I don't think that's likely though. I think Fulani is milking this. You think the old lady is an areshole. Neither of us are looking at this from an "at best" pov.

[OngBonga]

I mean "at best" Fulani has snapped and unloaded years of pent up aggression against an old lady who asked her the wrong question at the wrong time. The straw that broke the camel's back. I could understand that from Fulani's pov.

But if that were me in Fulani's shoes, I'd quickly recognise I'd overreacted and would seek to play down the incident and would want to have a private clear-the-air talk with the old lady. I'd know it's not fair to hold one person to account for the cumulative actions of many people over many years. I'd know it's even less fair on an elderly lady. That would keep me awake at night, assuming that I'm not a nasty piece of work happy to ruin other peoples' lives to boost my own profile.

[Poopadoop]

I mean "at best" Fulani has snapped and unloaded years of pent up aggression against an old lady who asked her the wrong question at the wrong time. The straw that broke the camel's back. I could understand that from Fulani's pov.

She's not being aggressive about it at all, she's just expressed disappointment that this kind of thing can happen at a royal event.

But if that were me in Fulani's shoes,

You'll never understand what it's like to be in her shoes mate. I think that's part of the reason so many white people think she's being unreasonable or an attention whore or was asking for it by wearing African clothes and letting her hair cover her name badge or whatever other ridiculous excuses people are coming up with.

I'd quickly recognise I'd overreacted

She posted the convo on twitter with a tone of disappointment. Not sure how that's an overreaction.

https://twitter.com/Sistah_Space/sta...54380115767296

and would seek to play down the incident

I mean ok she didn't have to make it public, fair enough. But if it was offensive enough to her that she did, that should count for something. It's not like this Fulani woman has a history of whipping out the race card (afaik) every time someone looks at her sideways.

and would want to have a private clear-the-air talk with the old lady.

Indeed, I would think Lady TE would be keen to straighten things out with her, if she really felt she'd been misunderstood. Haven't heard that that's happened though. Maybe it has.

I'd know it's not fair to hold one person to account for the cumulative actions of many people over many years.

Where is she doing that?

I'd know it's even less fair on an elderly lady.

Won't someone think of the old people...I mean we can all feel sympathy for her, and obviously the palace is to blame for having someone working there who didn't know how to behave.

That would keep me awake at night, assuming that I'm not a nasty piece of work happy to ruin other peoples' lives to boost my own profile.

lol, like she planned the whole thing.

Fulani: "Imma gonna make up some shit an old lady working at the palace said to me, and get me some TV time. Yeehaw!"

[OngBonga]

Huh? Do you struggle to see this woman is of African descent?

I privately assume she is of African descent but I don't know if she is African, Afro-Caribbean, I don't know what culture her attire belongs to, and if I were interested in her while making small talk these are question I might ask.

Of course I'm socially aware enough to know if the conversation is riveting or awkward, so these questions I'd ask once. If that convo you posted is accurate then that to me is obviously awkward and should also be obvious to an experienced royal hanger-on who presumably has attended many of these events and met many people of all cultures during her time. But if it's Fulani's account of the conversation then huge pinch of salt required.

[OngBonga]

She's not being aggressive about it at all, she's just expressed disappointment that this kind of thing can happen at a royal event.

Not being aggressive? Well she didn't slap her, but she's moaning on twitter and going on talk shows to say she has been abused. That's aggressive in my book.

You'll never understand what it's like to be in her shoes mate.

No I won't, because I'm not a professional victim exploiting my skin colour for sympathy and profile. I'm a normal person who tries to give people the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming everyone is out to insult me. And if someone does insult me I'll tell them to fuck off and find someone else to talk to, rather than continue the conversation for five minutes and then complain. So no how silly of me to think I can put myself in Fulani's shoes.

Being asked where you're from is not a form of abuse. She is not a victim, at least not here, not unless there's actual evidence that this old lady was being malicious or at the very least completely oblivious to the offence she was obviously causing. So you saying "you can't know how she feels" is yet more unconscious racism directed at me for being white. Like white people are incapable of empathy when it comes to being annoyed by other peoples' lack of social awareness. Utter nonsense.

She posted the convo on twitter with a tone of disappointment. Not sure how that's an overreaction.

She's talking about it on talk shows for fuck's sake. It's not like her one single tweet went viral and she's trying to calm things down.

It's not like this Fulani woman has a history of whipping out the race card (afaik) every time someone looks at her sideways.

And nobody is suggesting Lady Oldface has a history of racism. So something is amiss, right?

Where is she doing that?

She is arguing she has experienced abuse. That's a very strong word to throw at someone who asked where you're from.

If we assume that Fulani regularly gets asked this question and this is the final straw, then she's unloading years of frustration on one old lady. That's not fair.

Won't someone think of the old people...

Yeah think about old people who can die of stress. Imagine highlighting this for mockery.

lol, like she planned the whole thing.

At the very least this seems highly opportunistic. I don't believe she planned it, but I do think she carped those diems.

[Poopadoop]

I'm not a professional victim exploiting my skin colour for sympathy and profile.

Unless something affects you directly, it's not a problem. Got it.

I'm a normal person who tries to give people the benefit of the doubt rather than assuming everyone is out to insult me.

She gave her the benefit of the doubt, until about the third or fourth time she pressed the issue. Seemed pretty patient and even-tempered to me.

And if someone does insult me I'll tell them to fuck off and find someone else to talk to, rather than continue the conversation for five minutes and then complain.

You can't have it both ways. Either you give someone the benefit of the doubt and assume they're not insulting you, or you decide they are insulting you and tell them off. You can't even decide which yourself, yet you're mad at this woman for not living up to your standards of behaviour.

Being asked where you're from is not a form of abuse.

Depends on the undertone of the conversation. A lot of POC say that when someone asks them that, it feels like they're doing it to put them in their place.

Also, we were taught in sensitivity training not to ask students that at all. Seems our uni is ahead of the Palace on that one.

So you saying "you can't know how she feels" is yet more unconscious racism directed at me for being white.

Dunno, sounds an awful lot like your playing the victim card based on your race here to me. I thought that was something you never did.

Like white people are incapable of empathy when it comes to being annoyed by other peoples' lack of social awareness. Utter nonsense.

Who said it was only white people? It's not even every white person. But it's some of them.

She's talking about it on talk shows for fuck's sake. It's not like her one single tweet went viral and she's trying to calm things down.

She said she wanted to raise awareness of the problem that racism is still present at the highest levels in the UK.

Yeah think about old people who can die of stress. Imagine highlighting this for mockery.

Lol.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Also, we were taught in sensitivity training not to ask students that at all. Seems our uni is ahead of the Palace on that one.

cringe

Sounds like the whole, "I don't see race," nonsense that I used to say myself, without realizing that denying a person their culture, history, and current social situation is still racist. Pretending racism doesn't exist still marginalizes their identity.

I mean, sure... if you are an accidental racist (this is far more common than intentional racism, mind), and you're not aware of it, then prob. you're very likely to accidentally offend someone - in this case, a student. From the administration's POV, that's the cheapest and easiest way of not dealing with this problem. Blame the accident as intent and end any learning or conversation about it. Definitely end any discussion before someone asks what's a better way to respect the student, in which case, you risk being accused over an accident in the same way.


It'd be better if we learn from each other. It'd be better if we see each other and understand the nuances that we didn't see before. It'd be better if everyone took a deep breath and apologized for any mistaken offense and admitted they need to learn how to be more empathetic in those situations. It'd be better if we could stop treating all racism as intent, and realize that people make mistakes, sometimes hurtful mistakes, and that doesn't mean they meant any harm at all.

It's far too easy for the media in the US to absolutely shield white people from black culture. It's far too easy for white people to have only a bastardized media bias providing them information about black lives. I really don't think it's fair to excuse people from accidental racism, but I also don't think it's on nearly the same level as intentional racism. If you've been lied to your whole life, and you believe even some of those lies, then that's a problem... but it's not an intent to devalue another person, it's being brainwashed into not seeing the other person's reality.

[Poopadoop]

It'd be better if we learn from each other. It'd be better if we see each other and understand the nuances that we didn't see before. It'd be better if everyone took a deep breath and apologized for any mistaken offense and admitted they need to learn how to be more empathetic in those situations. It'd be better if we could stop treating all racism as intent, and realize that people make mistakes, sometimes hurtful mistakes, and that doesn't mean they meant any harm at all.

This is more or less what I'm getting at. I don't think Lady TE was going out of her way to be racist to Fulani - she just didn't know any better because when she grew up it was acceptable for whites to feel superior. She may even feel superior because of her class, not race. That said, there's nothing wrong with a POC saying "this is not ok, people need to do better."

All the hysteria around this is the media making a bigger deal of something than it really is.

News update: Fulani has said she never wanted Lady TE to be sacked, and Lady TE has asked to meet with Fulani and smooth things out. I'm guessing she's learned a lesson. It's too bad the palace didn't teach it to before the event in question, that would have avoided this whole kerfuffle.

The royals have been accused of racism before, and caught saying some racist things, most notably by Harry and Megan. So it's not like this just came out of nowhere.

[OngBonga]

She gave her the benefit of the doubt, until about the third or fourth time she pressed the issue.

So you're doubling down on Fulani's tweet being accurate? Ok, but that is not evidence a court would accept. What reason do you have to give Fulani the benefit of the doubt? What reason do you have to not give the old lady the benefit of the doubt?

You can't have it both ways. Either you give someone the benefit of the doubt and assume they're not insulting you, or you decide they are insulting you and tell them off. You can't even decide which yourself, yet you're mad at this woman for not living up to your standards of behaviour.

I'm not sure how you get here.

My point is that if I felt insulted by a guest at a party, I'd find someone else to talk to and forget about the other person. This wouldn't be something I'd go running to the press about. Not unless I was seeking to boost my profile, anyway. A bit of race baiting will do that, as we can see by discussing a faux pas like it's international news.

Depends on the undertone of the conversation. A lot of POC say that when someone asks them that, it feels like they're doing it to put them in their place.

That's not the fault of the person making normal enquiries. If I ask you what your name is and you take offence, is that my fault? Should I have checked if asking your name will offend you before enquiring? What if asking you if it will offend you will offend you? Small talk is complicated.

Also, we were taught in sensitivity training not to ask students that at all. Seems our uni is ahead of the Palace on that one.

Oh well in this case hang the bitch. How dare she not have attended sensitivity training. She deserves everything she's getting.

Dunno, sounds an awful lot like your playing the victim card based on your race here to me. I thought that was something you never did.

I don't really feel racially abused, I'm half trolling and half attempting to point out that you're holding white people to a different standard to black people, which is the exact opposite of equality. But I don't really believe you're being unconsciously racist, I'm just stealing your phrase there for the sake of argument.

She said she wanted to raise awareness of the problem that racism is still present at the highest levels in the UK.

So she's choosing a normal question asked at parties and presenting it as racist abuse? This is doing more harm than good for such causes.

[OngBonga]

Mojo is being much more reasoned and balanced than I am, which is good.

I'm really, really tired of race baiting in society, it's the exact opposite of helpful in terms of ending racism. A lot of people share this view, if social media is a reliable indicator. And not just right wingers. Balanced people, black people, leftists, there are lots of people who think Fulani is overplaying her hand here. Nobody knows the real context of this incident, because there's only the word of the accuser to go by. Poop's kneejerk reaction is to blindly believe the accuser, my kneejerk reaction is to be suspicious of deliberate race baiting. If I'm honest, neither of these positions are helpful. And both positions are motivated by the same thing - we both want racism to not be a problem. But for me, when I see someone making a huge fuss about being asked where she's from when wearing tribal clothing, I don't see this as helpful at all. All it's done is once again divide society into two camps. Which is of course the point of it. That's why I see it as race baiting. The intention is social division. I might be wrong on this occasion but it's a huge problem in society that is hindering progress, not advancing it.

[Poopadoop]

Ong, your approach seems to be to deny racism at every turn. You say the cops aren't racist, when clearly a lot of them are. You say the royals aren't racist. Seems every time someone points out racism, your response is to accuse them of race-baiting or playing the victim. Fact is, everyone is racist inasmuch as it's a natural part of human cognition to categorize people based on appearance.

It's a question of whether or not you let it drive your behaviour. If you think Lady TE had a right to touch this woman's hair and hector her about where in Africa she was from, and Fulani is an attention-seeking race-baiter for not taking it in good humour (which sounds a lot like "knowing her place," if you think about it), then you're part of the problem, not people who say Lady TE was wrong to do those things.

[OngBonga]

Ong, your approach seems to be to deny racism at every turn.

Wrong. It's just I refuse to dilute the term to capture anyone showing the slightest hint of insensitivity.

You say the cops aren't racist, when clearly a lot of them are.

"The cops" is not equal to "a cop".

Yeah, some, maybe a lot of them, are racist. These are individuals. The police as a force are not racist. Prove they are and you should write to the Guardian or someone and escalate the matter, because if you're right, if the police are institutionally racist and you can prove it, you'll get the chief fired. Heads will roll.

You say the royals aren't racist.

Again, we're talking about a lot of people here. I'm not sure I ever actually said the royals are not racist, but they obviously all aren't. Now the Royals have lots of old people who have lived through colonialism and have a very different view of interracial relations than younger people. Some of the Royals certainly are racist, Prince Phillip being the obvious one to point to. And given that the Royals don't fire racist princes, I can accept the argument that the Royal Family does have an institutional racism problem. But that doesn't mean it's fair to tag everyone associated with the Royals as racist, even if they say something that some (not all) people will find insensitive.

Seems every time someone points out racism, your response is to accuse them of race-baiting or playing the victim

There's a reason for this. The vast majority of what we talk about, it's not the kind of racism we'll all agree about. It's not a white person kicking the shit out of a black person. It's not businesses refusing to employ black people. It's subjective stuff like not supporting BLM, booing footballers who take the knee, being offended about being asked where you're from, so of course I usually dismiss it as race baiting. It's headline news, the media are making a big deal out of it, it's very likely to be race baiting.

Fact is, everyone is racist inasmuch as it's a natural part of human cognition to categorize people based on appearance.

But this isn't what racism is. Racism is the belief that one's own race is superior to another. It's discrimination against people based on their race or ethnicity. It's hatred based on skin colour or ethnicity.

It's not looking at a black woman wearing tribal clothing and assuming they are not British. That alone is not racism. If old lady is being malicious, wilfully attempting to make Fulani feel like an outsider, then it is racism. But I just don't see that as the likely motivation. Intended polite small talk is much more likely.

If you think Lady TE had a right to touch this woman's hair...

I'm not even sure how much credit I give to the hair touching without footage of it happening, but let's assume it did happen. Why is the default here "racism"? Maybe this old lady would have done exactly the same to a white woman.

Lady Oldface has no right to deliberately touch anyone's hair without consent. Race is irrelevant here, unless you're arguing that old lady subconsciously believes black woman are inferior to her and therefore she doesn't need to ask permission. That *might* be the case, and if so, then yes, it's racism. But that's an assumption based on absolutely nothing.

And you're still taking Fulani's account as factual. Do you not see the problem with blindly believing the accuser?

[CoccoBill]

Wrong. It's just I refuse to dilute the term to capture anyone showing the slightest hint of insensitivity.

Or to put it differently, you don't want to extend it to include yourself. Why is the term sacred, why must someone be a literal hitler or have burned a cross in the past 90 days to be captured by it? Would it not be more helpful for everyone to realize that to an extent racism is an inherent property of being a human, and unless we recognize and acknowledge that in ourselves, we're never gonna do anything about it? You want to protect the term, but by doing that you're diluting the acts of "racism".

[OngBonga]

Or to put it differently, you don't want to extend it to include yourself.

I don't hate people of a different ethnicity to me. I don't discriminate. I don't think I'm racially superior to anyone else. Why the hell would I think I'm racist? Why the hell would I need to define racism in such a way to exclude myself when the actual definition of racism already excludes me?

If you think I'm racist because I don't blindly believe Fulani, or because I don't think asking where someone is from is an inappropriate question, or because I won't cheerlead footballers taking the knee, then ok, you're entitled to your opinion, you're entitled to define racism in such a way to include me if you choose to do so. But you're the one redefining racism, not me.

[CoccoBill]

Which definition of racism requires hate or hatred, you mentioned it twice?

Oxford: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

Webster: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
or
the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another

Wikipedia: Racism is the belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to inherited attributes and can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another.[1][2][3] It may also mean prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against other people because they are of a different race or ethnicity.[2] Modern variants of racism are often based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples. These views can take the form of social actions, practices or beliefs, or political systems in which different races are ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities.

None of them talk about hatred, and none require anyone to strictly believe their race is superior, it's about prejudices that end up disadvantaging others, whether on purpose or not.

I brought this up because you were talking about helpful views on racism, and I feel that seeing the problems and acknowledging them is the first step. Sure, there are people who are literal card-carrying nazis, but to think only they are to blame and I personally don't have anything to do with anything, is on a larger scale of things a far bigger problem. Nazis don't decide on zoning or city development issues, they don't do hiring for all employers, they don't enact stop and frisk policies or jail minorities. All people do, and if all people don't keep their prejudices in check and try to change things, they won't change.

[OngBonga]

None of them talk about hatred

Now tell me the definition of "antagonism".

The first one I pulled up was "showing dislike or opposition".

Dislike is approximately equal to hate.

Not sure why you're picking up on this like it's important. Clearly someone who hates black people is racist. Don't we agree on this?

Sure, there are people who are literal card-carrying nazis, but to think only they are to blame and I personally don't have anything to do with anything, is on a larger scale of things a far bigger problem

Nazis aren't the only racists in society. Anyone who fits the definitions we're discussing is racist. Can you give me an example where I might fall into such definition? Can you show the inherent racism inside of me that I need to address? Because I'm not seeing it. No hate (antagonism), no discrimination, no superiority complex. That's it. That makes me not racist. If I'm part of a society that's racist (which I'm not), then maybe there's a discussion to be had about what more I can do, but I can't change individuals. A society can change governments, whether at the ballot or by revolution, but you can't change the way some people think.

So racism is not a solvable problem. There's no magic fix. All we can do is socially exclude people who are racist (while using that word responsibly), remove from positions of power and influence those who are racist, and go about our lives treating people with equal respect until they give reason to not show them respect. What more do you think I should do?

[Poopadoop]

If I'm part of a society that's racist (which I'm not), then maybe there's a discussion to be had about what more I can do, but I can't change individuals.

You were doing a decent job of defending yourself until you said this.

What you mean I think is that UK society is not blatantly racist, like apartheid. But going from that to "it's not racist," is discounting the problems that people like Fulani face day in and day out. It's not always people using the n-word, sometimes it's more subtle than that. But it's still racist and it still pervades society. That's why it should be called out.

I get why it's hard to see, because if you put yourself in her shoes it wouldn't bother you if someone asked you where you're from, so it doesn't seem like a big deal. But surely, you can see, if only in some little corner of your mind, the colonial overtones of that question, and the implied superiority and entitlement shown by the touching of her hair and the repeated badgering and the condescending attitude.

And ask yourself, if a white person had been there instead of Fulani, would Lady TE have felt ok about touching her hair, and asking her where her ethnic roots were, and talked down to her like that.

(while using that word responsibly)

But you still haven't grasped the problem with what happened. Instead you started arguing that Fulani was making it up, "race-baiting," like she's Louis Farrakhan or something.

What more do you think I should do?

You can stop taking the side of the person being racist, how's that for a start?

[OngBonga]

Here's a fun question...

Would it be racist if I were to create a support group for female white victims of domestic abuse? This is not for black women, just white women.

[Poopadoop]

Here's a fun question...

Would it be racist if I were to create a support group for female white victims of domestic abuse? This is not for black women, just white women.

Do you mean in a country where white people were in a minority with a black ruling class?

[CoccoBill]

Now tell me the definition of "antagonism".

The first one I pulled up was "showing dislike or opposition".

Dislike is approximately equal to hate.

Not sure why you're picking up on this like it's important. Clearly someone who hates black people is racist. Don't we agree on this?

"prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism" Or, not and. Of course we agree that someone who hates black people is racist, what we don't seem to agree on is that not ONLY people who hate someone else are. If you have prejudices against other "races", whether positive, negative or neutral, that's racism, and a lot of the time contributes to issues of systemic racism. Most if not all of us have them, and that's the issue here.

Look I get it, "racist" is a charged word, and it's understandable to want to categorize them as bad people, and think I'm definitely not one of them, I don't hate anyone. We could just pick a less charged word here to describe the less hateful kinds, like "prejudiced", but that right there is diluting the actual acts of racism, belittling what people go through as if it's nothing when the victims are not actively hated upon, just accidentally treated differently.

Nazis aren't the only racists in society. Anyone who fits the definitions we're discussing is racist. Can you give me an example where I might fall into such definition? Can you show the inherent racism inside of me that I need to address? Because I'm not seeing it. No hate (antagonism), no discrimination, no superiority complex. That's it. That makes me not racist. If I'm part of a society that's racist (which I'm not), then maybe there's a discussion to be had about what more I can do, but I can't change individuals. A society can change governments, whether at the ballot or by revolution, but you can't change the way some people think.

I obviously don't know what inner thoughts or feelings you have about anyone. Maybe you've never seen a white girl working at a nail salon or a white guy delivering pizzas and wondered how they ended up there. Maybe when given a list of names of random people, with some of them likely from different ethnicities, you don't have any sort of prenotion on any their attributes. Maybe, but I bet that's not the case, that certainly isn't for me. Now imagine we all have them, some worse than others. Systemic racism is an emergent property of the sum of them. Some of us are active players in enforcing it, some just passive enablers, but all are contributing to it unless they're actively working against it.

So racism is not a solvable problem. There's no magic fix. All we can do is socially exclude people who are racist (while using that word responsibly), remove from positions of power and influence those who are racist, and go about our lives treating people with equal respect until they give reason to not show them respect. What more do you think I should do?

It's very much a solvable problem, at least in theory, we'd just all have to realize if we're not part of the fix, we're part of the problem. No one is perfect, everyone can improve their actions, be more considerate, more aware of what others are going through. I'm sure my actions have and still continue to hurt people in many ways, but what I can do is try to learn to be better, and not just close my eyes from it and think it's someone else's problem.

[OngBonga]

What you mean I think is that UK society is not blatantly racist, like apartheid.

Well that's the extreme example, or Nazi Germany, but that's not the only way a society can be racist. If there are no laws in place to protect people from ethnic discrimination, then I can accept that society has a problem with racism. The UK has laws in place and enforces them.

Society is not racist. People are racist. Some (banned) groups are racist. But our society is not racist. The vast majority of black people in the UK experience no problems most of the time. Yes most can say they have experienced racism at some point in their lives. Most people have experienced violence too. Society is not violent. There are some people who are violent, again the law has something to say about that.

I get why it's hard to see, because if you put yourself in her shoes it wouldn't bother you if someone asked you where you're from, so it doesn't seem like a big deal.

It's not that it wouldn't bother me. It's that I would expect to be asked such questions, given I'm at a party wearing tribal clothing. If it did bother me, I either wouldn't wear such clothing at parties, or not attend parties where I fear I might be asked such questions.

What if a black person asked where she's from? This should be treated with precisely the same amount of seriousness. Equality.

But you still haven't grasped the problem with what happened. Instead you started arguing that Fulani was making it up, "race-baiting," like she's Louis Farrakhan or something.

Well you're still blindly believing Fulani's account.

You can stop taking the side of the person being racist, how's that for a start?

"Where are you from" does not make someone racist. There is no evidence this woman is racist, except for the account of the accuser.

[Poopadoop]

It's that I would expect to be asked such questions, given I'm at a party wearing tribal clothing. If it did bother me, I either wouldn't wear such clothing at parties, or not attend parties where I fear I might be asked such questions.

So this black woman was asking for it by dressing up as a black woman. lol you should listen to yourself sometimes.

Well you're still blindly believing Fulani's account.

No-one who was there has contradicted it. What reason is there to think she's lying?

"Where are you from" does not make someone racist. There is no evidence this woman is racist, except for the account of the accuser.

Which no-one who was there has contradicted.

[Poopadoop]

The vast majority of black people in the UK experience no problems most of the time.

Citation needed.

[OngBonga]

I mean this is the state of affairs...

Ask someone wearing unusual clothing where they're from - racist.
Provide a service that only serves people of a particular ethnicity - not racist.

Now go and look at those definitions of racism that cocco posted.

[Poopadoop]

I mean this is the state of affairs...

Ask someone wearing unusual clothing where they're from - racist.
Provide a service that only serves people of a particular ethnicity - not racist.

Do you feel like you're disadvantaged in this world because you're white?

[OngBonga]

So this black woman was asking for it by dressing up as a black woman. lol you should listen to yourself sometimes.

You listen to yourself.

She didn't dress up "as a black woman". She dressed in attire unfamiliar to British people.

No-one who was there has contradicted it. What reason is there to think she's lying?

You can't imagine reasons for her to lie about this? I'll give you one... to boost the profile of the charity she runs.

Which no-one who was there has contradicted.

Have you been to a party before? You'd need to be standing with the to hear what they're talking about. Stand five meters away and their chatter is just background noise along with all the other chatter.

Nobody at the party has contradicted Fulani, also nobody else has said they heard the old lady say anything offensive.

Do you mean in a country where white people were in a minority with a black ruling class?

Didn't think you'd fall into the trap of admitting you're defending a racist.

Fulani's charity "specialises" in Caribbean and African victims of domestic abuse. So if a white woman want to use their service, she can't.

Maybe I shouldn't have said white women only. Maybe I should have said Scandinavian and Russian women.

[Poopadoop]

You listen to yourself.

She didn't dress up "as a black woman". She dressed in attire unfamiliar to British people.

Uncommon, not unfamiliar. We've all seen African clothes before.

So, your argument is that by wearing African clothes, a black person gives every white person the right to touch their hair and ask them about their ethnic orgins over and over?

You can't imagine reasons for her to lie about this? I'll give you one... to boost the profile of the charity she runs.

lol right, it's all an elaborate ruse. What an artiste she is coming up with that one. She even knew to blame it on an old white upper class woman who worked at the palace 'cause then everyone would believe it. Amazing that you've seen through this web of lies. Well done, sir.

Have you been to a party before? You'd need to be standing with the to hear what they're talking about. Stand five meters away and their chatter is just background noise along with all the other chatter.

Nobody at the party has contradicted Fulani, also nobody else has said they heard the old lady say anything offensive.

So when a black person accuses a white person of acting racist, your default is to think their lying even if no-one contradicts them, not even the person they're accusing.

Fwiw, if a white woman had been to Africa and reported being treated like this by an upper class black person, I would believe them too if no-one denied it.

Didn't think you'd fall into the trap of admitting you're defending a racist.

It wasn't a trap, it was a lame attempt at a false equivalence.

Fulani's charity "specialises" in Caribbean and African victims of domestic abuse. So if a white woman want to use their service, she can't.

Do you have evidence that they've turned away white women who sought help? Is there a sign on the door that says "blacks only"?

More generally, why do you think they feel there's a need for a domestic abuse charity specifically geared towards black women in the UK? Would you like to take a guess?

[OngBonga]

Uncommon, not unfamiliar. We've all seen African clothes before.

Sure, just like we've all seen European clothes. But funnily enough there's huge variation in the clothing of different European countries.

Africa isn't one culture. It's lots of cultures. So "African clothes" is not really narrowing it down.

Are you suggesting that it's less offensive to assume she's merely African and doesn't identify as a member of a nation or country? Because I wouldn't agree. I don't identify as European. It's a continent, not a culture.

So, your argument is that by wearing African clothes, a black person gives every white person the right to touch their hair and ask them about their ethnic orgins over and over?

Why are you deliberately being insincere?

I'll repeat myself. Nobody has the right to touch anyone's hair without consent. This isn't a matter of racism. This is a matter of common decency. What she's wearing makes no difference, if old lady did indeed touch her hair, that's not acceptable. It's not racist though, not unless you have good reason to believe this is an act of subconscious superiority. You don't have good reason. You have the word of a single person, the person who claims to be offended.

She's wearing non-British clothing. She's likely going to get asked about it at parties.

Over and over? So says Fulani. If that's true, if she really was repeating the question despite getting a negative response, ok she's being a dick and probably with malicious intent. I don't believe it. There's no evidence, only the word of one person. And that person might have an agenda.

lol right, it's all an elaborate ruse. What an artiste she is coming up with that one. She even knew to blame it on an old white upper class woman who worked at the palace 'cause then everyone would believe it.

Nailed it, well done.

So when a black person accuses a white person of acting racist, your default is to think their lying even if no-one contradicts them, not even the person they're accusing.

My default is to consider the context. And in this case, it's a lady at a royal party wearing "ask me about my culture" clothing getting upset about someone asking her about her culture.

And the old lady is in hiding. The Palace are not supporting her because they're worried about the backlash. I think they might have misjudged this one though because they're getting a lot of heat for throwing this woman to the wolves.

Fwiw, if a white woman had been to Africa and reported being treated like this by an upper class black person, I would believe them too if no-one denied it.

I wouldn't expect that a white woman wearing British clothing in Africa would get offended when asked where she's from. Even if she just so happens to have been born in the very country this conversation took place.

Do you have evidence that they've turned away white women who sought help?

Well not specific examples, but their website makes clear that it's a service for women of Caribbean or African heritage.

More generally, why do you think they feel there's a need for a domestic abuse charity specifically geared towards black women in the UK? Would you like to take a guess?

Sure.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36562028

This is the exact reason why the charity was set up. Because the police failed to stop a man murdering his ex and child. Maybe if this poor woman had access to support groups, she'd have survived. Maybe.

That's why these groups exist. Because men are arseholes and the police are useless. I'm not for a minute saying these groups shouldn't exist. They definitely should exist. I'm saying they shouldn't be profiling people based on ethnicity. That is not the way to go about creating a society that treats people of all ethnicities as equals.

Do you feel like you're disadvantaged in this world because you're white?

No. But I'm not at an advantage either. My employment prospects are precisely equal to a black person of equal experience and skill. I have the same access to education, health, welfare.

I'm disadvantaged because I come from a poor and broken family though. Can I have a support group for brown haired people who come from poor families? No gingers.

[MadMojoMonkey]

[Poopadoop]

King Chuck showing how it's done.

[OngBonga]

Of course we agree that someone who hates black people is racist, what we don't seem to agree on is that not ONLY people who hate someone else are.

Huh?

Hate, discrimination, superiority. That's racism. You can change those words to antagonism, prejudice and haughtiness if you want, they're basically synonyms. We can play word wrestling all day if you want, but I'm pretty sure we actually agree what racism is.

If you have prejudices against other "races", whether positive, negative or neutral, that's racism.

Ok. Let's just clear up what prejudice means then. It's "holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions". But that's the general definition. In the context of racism it's "Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular social group, such as a race or the adherents of a religion."

We're back to hate being a key aspect. Nothing positive in hatred.

Look I get it, "racist" is a charged word

And it's highly misused.

and it's understandable to want to categorize them as bad people, and think I'm definitely not one of them, I don't hate anyone. We could just pick a less charged word here to describe the less hateful kinds, like "prejudiced"

But prejudice in the context of racism does require hatred or irrational suspicion. I just showed you that.

If my suspicion of Ngozi is because she's black, then ok I'm being racist and need to address that. My suspicion of Ngozi is due to her overreaction to a seemingly mundane faux pas. That's not irrational, and it's not because of her skin colour. If Ngozi were a white trans woman offended by being accidentally misgendered, I'd still be suspicious of her motives if she blew it up to this degree.

To show "prejudice" in a racist context, your motive is based on hatred or intolerance.

but that right there is diluting the actual acts of racism, belittling what people go through as if it's nothing when the victims are not actively hated upon, just accidentally treated differently.

"treated differently"

This is highly, highly subjective. People are different. If you're treating all black people in the same different way than you treat white people, ok there might be basis in this. Even in a positive sense. If you patronise all black people like they're less intelligent, dumbing down your language, then yes that's positive racism. But if you treat one black person differently to another, that's not racism, assuming the reason you're treating them differently is for rational reasons. Perhaps one is Muslim and the other is not, so you adapt your behaviour to suit their circumstances. You treat people differently. But you do so based on rational reasons.

Maybe you've never seen a white girl working at a nail salon or a white guy delivering pizzas and wondered how they ended up there.

I don't pay attention to the skin colour of people I encounter on a daily basis. Obviously I notice but it's not something I store in my memory bank for future reference.

Wondering how someone got where they are in life, this isn't racism. I work with two Polish girls. One (my boss) is a beautiful woman who lives with her Mother. I wonder why she's in England, seemingly single. The other is married with a son. I wonder why she and her family decided to move to England. I'm not going to ask, it's none of my business. I recently went to France alone to a music festival. The French people I met were curious why I travelled to another country where I don't speak the language. These are reasonable curiosities.

Maybe when given a list of names of random people, with some of them likely from different ethnicities, you don't have any sort of prenotion on any their attributes.

Of course I don't. I might assume that someone called Pavel is likely Polish, or someone called Mohammed is likely Muslim, but I don't assume that someone called David Bolt is a black man who can run fast. The only assumption I would make is their nationality (and gender) based on their name, and I'm also completely aware that I might not be right. Stevie Nicks is a girl. Is it sexist for me to see that name for the first time and assume male? Of course not.

It's very much a solvable problem, at least in theory, we'd just all have to realize if we're not part of the fix, we're part of the problem.

Well it's solvable in theory, in the same way it's possible to correctly guess every card in a deck of cards one after the other, in theory. Good luck with that.

No one is perfect, everyone can improve their actions, be more considerate, more aware of what others are going through. I'm sure my actions have and still continue to hurt people in many ways, but what I can do is try to learn to be better, and not just close my eyes from it and think it's someone else's problem.

I agree. We can all be better people. But you should be treating everyone equally, right? So when you talk about awareness of what other people are going through, you should apply that to people you might disagree with on the surface, People who oppose immigration, for example. Maybe they have good reason to feel that way. Maybe their circumstances would shed some light onto that, if only you took the time to be more aware.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Cocco's prior post is epic tier.

Racism doesn't necessarily involve hate. Most of the time, racism doesn't involve hate. It involves ignorance and probably entitlement.


For example: in the US, white people touching black people's hair without permission is a cultural problem. It's technically assault to put your hands on another person or anything they are holding without their permission. Not the level that would necessitate a criminal case, but such is the nature of laws.

Any person reaching out to touch anyone's body without their permission is in the wrong. Whether your motivation included hate isn't relevant to the entitled permission to lay your hands on someone.

I have not heard stories of black people spontaneously touching a white person's hair. I have heard many, many stories from black people about some stranger walking up to them and touching their hair without even saying hello first.


This is racism. Acts of violence and hate are also racism. The violence and hate aren't necessary elements of racism.

[Poopadoop]

Turns out there is a cure.

https://twitter.com/BradTroemel/stat...39026323849217

[OngBonga]

Racism doesn't necessarily involve hate.

I never suggested it did. I said hate was one of three primary aspects of racism, the others being discrimination and superiority. You can find synonyms of these words if you prefer, like antagonism, prejudice, whatever. But I absolutely agree that racism doesn't necessarily involve hatred.

And I provided an example. Dumbing down your language because you think black people are less intelligent than you would be an act of racism not motivated by hatred, but instead motivated by a debunked stereotype. That would be ignorance.

For example: in the US, white people touching black people's hair without permission is a cultural problem.

I don't understand what this has to do with racism, other than you providing the specific example of white people touching black peoples' hair. What if a black person touches a black person's hair? What if a black person touches a white person's hair?

If you're saying that it's a much more common occurrence for white people to touch black peoples' hair then ok there might be a racism problem playing a role in the statistics. But this is the first I'm hearing of such a problem.

btw, I've recently had my hair touched without permission. I was in France dancing to music and someone behind me flicked my hair that was tied back. It happened twice. I ignored it completely and carried on dancing, but it was obvious to me that whoever did it was taking the piss out of me tying my hair back into a bun rather than a pony tail. It wasn't friendly. Other than mildly insulting me, it didn't bother me at all. In a crowd of thousands of people, there are going to be a few wankers. I'm not going to be one of them by turning around and making a big deal out of it.

Any person reaching out to touch anyone's body without their permission is in the wrong.

This is absolutely not in dispute.

I have not heard stories of black people spontaneously touching a white person's hair.

I've no idea what race my hair toucher was for the simple reason I didn't care to turn around and look at who it was. Chances are it was a white man, but I don't know that. If it was a black person, it's still not something I would consider racism.

I don't hear stories about hair touching in any context.

[CoccoBill]

I don't understand what this has to do with racism, other than you providing the specific example of white people touching black peoples' hair.

I'll try to elaborate. Imagine that you're a person whose cultural history is filled with atrocities by blue people. They've invaded your lands, enslaved you, treated you like animals for centuries. Then an old blue lady comes and starts playing with your hair like you're a toddler. "Aren't you a cute little thing". Now, this one instance in a vacuum doesn't sound too bad, you might even shrug it off with a chuckle. Now imagine this happens to you every fucking week all your life, always by blue people. The blue person most likely doesn't mean anything bad, but with the context and the history, I might very well lose my shit at some point, at least I wouldn't blame if someone in that situation did.

What if a black person touches a black person's hair? What if a black person touches a white person's hair?

It would be 100% the same thing, except for the context and history. Do blacks have a history of oppression over black people? Yes they do, so if you're Hutu, you better think twice before doing that to a Tutsi. Do blacks have a history of oppression over white people? Not that I know of really, so I would think it's less of a problem, apart from the fairly general rule that that's just not a thing you do to other people without consent.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I never suggested it did. I said hate was one of three primary aspects of racism, the others being discrimination and superiority. You can find synonyms of these words if you prefer, like antagonism, prejudice, whatever. But I absolutely agree that racism doesn't necessarily involve hatred.

And I provided an example. Dumbing down your language because you think black people are less intelligent than you would be an act of racism not motivated by hatred, but instead motivated by a debunked stereotype. That would be ignorance.

Oh, my bad. I thought that's what you were saying.

I apologize for pressing the point when it was my misunderstanding.

As for the hair touching, I did stipulate this is a thing in the US. IDK what racial relations are like in the UK at all, so I can only really speak to my experiences in the US. The first I heard of the hair-touching thing I was like... eww gross, WTF. And I assumed it was kinda a 1-off thing. But then I heard the story again from a different black woman and I asked about it. It's a thing. White people touching black people's hair - especially women, but not necessarily - is a thing that happens in the US. And it's fucked up. And it's a white person who most likely just wants to learn about black hair and what it feels like, but the impulse that they don't even need to ask permission first is fucked up. Really fucked up.

Take in the history and culture of black women in the US and their hairstyles - some women regularly spend 1/4 or more of their net income on their hair - and it's even more fucked up. In the US, hairstyles are a huge part of black culture and specifically black women's culture. They probably wouldn't give permission to anyone to touch their hair, even their partners and family. Let alone some club-fisted stranger.

[OngBonga]

@mojo

I really don't know if hair touching is a problem in the UK. I have to admit I live in a bubble, I'm reclusive and isolated in the countryside instead of the social animal in a busy town that I was 20 years ago. But it's not something I ever understood to be a problem, and certainly not in a racist context. We all know from a young age that it's socially unacceptable. I mean, I can vaguely remember at school an instance of a girl with an afro getting upset because a boy wanted to feel her "fuzzy hair", but this is children being children. It's obviously not acceptable and the teachers had to sit everyone down to make sure we all knew we can't do that. I don't think I could go as far as calling that boy "racist" because he was too naive to understand. But in this instance it's certainly something an Afro-Caribbean girl is way more likely to encounter, and so it does need to be dealt with differently. If an adult were to do that, then yes I would say that's racist.

And it's fucked up. And it's a white person who most likely just wants to learn about black hair and what it feels like

This is what I just described, only adults doing it. It's a massive no-no, and everyone should know it. There's no real excuse for this kind of ignorance except maybe autism. It was unacceptable when I was a child in the 1980s. This isn't a modern shift in attitude, like words that we used to use no longer being cool. Hair touching has always been frowned upon, you should know you can't touch peoples' hair. Maybe if you're friends with someone you can ask. Trust is absolutely key here.

[OngBonga]

I'll try to elaborate. Imagine that you're a person whose cultural history is filled with atrocities by blue people.

Ok nice, setting the tone, blue people oppressors, non blues the oppressed.

They've invaded your lands, enslaved you, treated you like animals for centuries.

Like when the Romans came to England and fucked all the Celtic blood out of my ancestry?

I suddenly feel justified in demonising Italians.

Then an old blue lady comes and starts playing with your hair like you're a toddler. "Aren't you a cute little thing".

Presumably we're not allowed to question the non-blue person's account of the incident?

Now imagine this happens to you every fucking week all your life, always by blue people.

This would definitely make me want to wait until an elderly blue person said it to me instead of one of the younger ones before her. Someone who for all I know could be suffering from dementia. Yeah I'll rip that blue person apart for years of blue people annoying me.

I hope I gave your blue analogy the respect it deserved.

[CoccoBill]

Presumably we're not allowed to question the non-blue person's account of the incident.

I think this right here is the crux of the matter. It doesn't matter what the non-blue thinks about it. If you drive drunk and no one gets hurt, it doesn't make it ok. Some non-blues might not mind, but that doesn't make it ok. It's on the blue person to mind what they're doing.

[OngBonga]

The way I see it here is that it's the non-blue person who has the problem. The non-blue person is holding the blue person to a standard of behaviour based on the historical crimes of blue people on non-blue people. The modern blue person isn't a blue supremacist, only fringe blue nutters cling onto this belief, but the non-blue is still blaming blue people for crimes that happened centuries ago. It's the non-blue person who is concerned about blueness.

[CoccoBill]

I don't think anyone said it happened centuries ago? I agree that if it had, and nothing worth mentioning had happened since, the situation would be a bit different. Interesting though that you assumed this'd be the case, and most likely the victim is to blame. I used the "blue" exactly for the purpose of avoiding you supplanting your biases about any real world situation on the scenario, but I guess I failed.

[OngBonga]

I was just taking the piss, in case it wasn't obvious.

[OngBonga]

I mean there's an element of truth.

White people are blamed for racism, and held to a different standard of behaviour and mentality. When you simplify it to that level you can see the absurdity of it. If you blame an entire race and treat them differently to other races, for the actions of a few, then you're being racist. Fighting racism with racism is not a viable solution. But people don't see the racism in blaming white people.

White people aren't to blame for racism. Racist people are to blame for racism. IF someone blames white people, they are part of the problem.

[Poopadoop]

White people aren't to blame for racism. Racist people are to blame for racism. IF someone blames white people, they are part of the problem.

Fair point, but in the present case Fulani is not complaining about the white race. She's complaining about Lady TE and others who act like her.

[OngBonga]

Do you think that no black person exists that asks another black person where they are from, based on nothing but attire? Because presumably, if this is racism, only white people have such curiosities, and these curiosities only extend to black people. Like, a white person isn't going to ask someone wearing Lederhosen where they're from, because Germans are white and white people don't ask other white people these questions.

If this is something that happens often, the "others who act like her" in your words, then surely people of other races ask her too.

[MadMojoMonkey]

That's some race-based generalizations you're making, ong.

It's not the first time the question was asked that is even being criticized. It's the alleged lack of acceptance of the answer, "I'm from where you're from," that is the issue.

[OngBonga]

I mean it's not as serious as a rape allegation, it's not the best comparison. I would be a great deal more careful about accusing someone of making a false rape allegation, even if there was a zero percent probability they see my comments. I would use much more sensitive language. Because if I'm wrong, the distress that could cause is immense. The same could be said for certain kinds of racism allegations, but not this kind.

This isn't traumatic for Fulani, even if her account is to be believed, and any such use of that word would be an exaggeration and an insult to people who have experienced trauma.

[OngBonga]

Well I have said that if Fulani's account is accurate then old lady hasn't really got a leg to stand on. If she really did press the matter in the way she did, that's not something I'm going to defend. It should be obvious to her that such a conversation is awkward and she should cut it short. That's the right thing to do if you suspect you might have accidentally caused offence. Change the subject. Easy.

I'm assuming Fulani is milking it. I find it hard to believe that someone who has worked for the royal family for 60 years is only now exposed as an insensitive racist. There are no allegations emerging relating to previous conduct. Fulani hasn't given any thought to the mental state of the 84 y/o woman she is accusing (dementia is a possibility). Nobody else has come forward to support Fulani's account of the conversation. People are kneejerking to Fulani's side simply because she has made an allegation of racism. I've kind of wanted to avoid making the comparison because it's unpleasant, but it's similar to blindly believing rape allegations. Of course they should be treated seriously, but also with an open mind. We know that some disturbed women make false allegations because they know it will cause immense damage to the reputation of the person they are accusing. Some women use rape allegations as a weapon. And some people use racism allegations as a weapon. I believe that is the case here. Maybe I'm wrong.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I mean... even if we take Fulani's account as purely factual, there's nothing in there that's lose-your-job-over-it bad.
Apologize for the *appearance* of insensitivity. Deny any actual intent of insensitivity. Invite Fulani to tea to have a chat about the whole thing and smooth it over (as civilized British people do, I imagine).

At worst if Lady McOldface refuses to apologize for giving the impression of cultural insensitivity - not even admitting to intent - then fire her for being a difficult person to employ who brought negative attention to you and will not cooperate to make it better. I.e. the reason to fire her would be failure to perform her job duties as instructed, not the conversation at the party.

[OngBonga]

Apologize for the *appearance* of insensitivity. Deny any actual intent of insensitivity. Invite Fulani to tea to have a chat about the whole thing and smooth it over (as civilized British people do, I imagine).

Precisely. This is exactly how it should be dealt with. There was absolutely no need for Fulani to make this public, not immediately anyway. Give the old lady the benefit of the doubt, at least for a duration of time to see if she is willing to privately discuss the perceived insensitivity of her comments.

I'm not a huge fan of insincere apologies. I am personally more offended if someone says sorry to me when they don't mean it than if they don't say sorry at all. Only say it if you mean it, as an acknowledgement you're in the wrong. So if this old lady really doesn't think she's done anything wrong, an apology isn't what's in order, but rather a recognition that such comments can be perceived as insensitive, and a genuine effort to not make the same mistake again.

[OngBonga]

Oh and he claims his intention when looking into their affairs was to donate to them, but he did his due diligence first. Also hilarious. When you scream and shout, demanding attention, and then when you get attention you have regrets.

[Poopadoop]

Oh and he claims his intention when looking into their affairs was to donate to them, but he did his due diligence first. Also hilarious. When you scream and shout, demanding attention, and then when you get attention you have regrets.

So now you believe everything you read...

[OngBonga]

With that said, I definitely believe his many many hours of research, especially given he's said things he could be sued for if they are not true, and which can easily be refuted if they are indeed false, since he pulled this info off the internet.

His motivation, he's probably being honest but I obviously don't know that.

[OngBonga]

By the way, really cool of you to not even comment about the fact you're blindly believing the word of someone now accused of charity fraud.

You just focus on me.

[OngBonga]

I mean, this is what really matters...

It's also hilarious how some Scottish dude with 1000 followers destroyed this "charity" with simple research that any competent journalist should be more than capable of.

Let's give this guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he's nailed this charity. Why didn't a single journalist do so? Don't you find this concerning? You most definitely should.

[OngBonga]

The reason you should find it concerning is because these very same journalists, the ones that don't do due diligence or research, and whip up racial tensions, they are the same journalists telling you what "misinformation" is, they're the same ones who tell us what "fact checkers" have to say.

You think I'm paranoid for not trusting governments and media, but stuff like this only reinforces my distrust.

[Poopadoop]

Hey look, another POC lying about experiencing racism in the UK. It's contagious!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ism-in-cricket

[OngBonga]

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...860406274.html

177 tweet thread exposing Sister Space as frauds. Quite the read.

nepotism
fraud
gross incompetence of accounts, including clear and obvious conflicts of interest
politicians lobbying on their behalf for concessions from councils

The fraud is applying for grants under false pretence. One example is a £60k grant for a new website, and the result was a "technical downgrade to their previous one" and was created on Square Space, by someone whose website selling himself as a web designer is built on the Wix platform. These two platforms are for people who can't code. I used Wix to build a website for recent training. This £60k website could probably have been bought for a fiver on fivrr.com

Lots of other grants with no evidence that they were spent on the intended purpose.

The nepotism is hilarious.

It's also hilarious how some Scottish dude with 1000 followers destroyed this "charity" with simple research that any competent journalist should be more than capable of.

[OngBonga]

"he claims"

That's a rather significant caveat, which to any normal person would imply an element of doubt, if only a little.

So to answer your question... no.