*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

[OngBonga]

I've changed my mind. I think we should rejoin. I can deal with the economic shock, I can deal with loss of freedom of movement, but I can't deal with us not being able to take a ham fucking sandwich into Holland.

[The Bean Counter]

The Tories do feed children. That's what benefits are for

Agree, but I think this has been forgotten. I gather one big problem is going from a job to receiving benefits takes forever, with people being without any cash for weeks.

I always have polarised feelings about this kind of stuff. I'd always like to think that free schools, libraries, parks, NHS and the benefit system gives every kid an equal chance. Then I hear about some parents and realise these kids are fucked no matter what. If they are going hungry when we already have a benefits system, something has gone badly wrong somewhere and no personal agency is being applied.

[OngBonga]

Agree, but I think this has been forgotten. I gather one big problem is going from a job to receiving benefits takes forever, with people being without any cash for weeks.

This isn't the whole story. Usually there is a delay between applying for benefits and receiving the first payment, up to five weeks, however there are resources available to those who need immediate cash, ie a loan which has to be paid back out of the benefits over a period of time. If someone is literally out of cash for weeks, they're too lazy to apply for the loan, or they're borrowing money off a relative or friend, and then complaining about how terrible the system is on social media.

The problem I have with this whole "feed the children" system is that it incentivises bad parenting.

[OngBonga]

This has been discussed before, me and poop have argued about this subject in the past. I said it then and I'll say it again. I went hungry at times, I had a terrible stepmom and a father who was either at work, drunk, or at football matches (home and away, every weekend). He either didn't know how awful she was, or didn't care. I'd like to think the former, but I was too young to understand my childhood wasn't normal. Eventually I got taken into care, living in foster homes and children's homes.

If I could change anything from my childhood, I wouldn't want a fucking banana from the government. I'd want better parents.

[Poopadoop]

Scottish fiserhmen fucked by Brexit. #MESA

[OngBonga]

It's amusing that the Scottish nationalists don't like being called nationalists.

[Poopadoop]

It is, but not as amusing as the fact that Brexit is continuing to screw over the same fishermen it was promoted as being in the interests of.

[OngBonga]

Some Scottish politician with an agenda said so, it must be true.

[Poopadoop]

You're right, he's probably making the whole thing up, not relating what one of his constituents wrote to him about. Everything's still rainbows and unicorns.

[Poopadoop]

Some Scottish politician with an agenda said so, it must be true.

This is apparently what objective criticism looks like.

1. Point out the nationality of the person as a dogwhistle that anyone who isn't the same nationality as me should be treated with suspicion.

2. Imply that an elected MP is blatantly lying to parliament on an easily checked claim in a cynical effort to gain political points.

3. Definitely DO NOT take 30sec to look up their claim to see if it's true.


https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-idUSKBN29D0U0

[OngBonga]

It's what pressing buttons looks like.

I mean if you want me to be serious here, these kind of transitional hiccups are inevitable. Let me know if this is still a problem in six months when people have had time to adjust, identify problems, and fix them.

[Poopadoop]

It's what pressing buttons looks like.

They're your words mate. You can't be surprised if people take them at face value.

I mean if you want me to be serious here, these kind of transitional hiccups are inevitable.

How is it a "hiccup" if you need paperwork to sell your fish but it takes so long to get the paperwork done that you can no longer sell your fish. "Disaster" seems like a more appropriate word for that to me.

Let me know if this is still a problem in six months when people have had time to adjust, identify problems, and fix them.

Don't worry I will. In the meantime, tell me what the fishermen are meant to do - live off their savings?

[OngBonga]

They're your words mate. You can't be surprised if people take them at face value.

I saw this guy pop up in my timeline last night because he was moaning about being called a nationalist. He's a miserable Scottish tosser with an agenda. Whether what he says is accurate or not wasn't really a concern for me. But yeah fair enough, I can't expect you guys to know when I'm being serious, trolling, half trolling etc.

How is it a "hiccup" if you need paperwork to sell your fish but it takes so long to get the paperwork done that you can no longer sell your fish.

These things will become streamlined over time.

Don't worry I will. In the meantime, tell me what the fishermen are meant to do - live off their savings?

Government are helping financially. Whether that help is sufficient is another matter, you'll need to ask a fisherman, but they're putting money into the industry. Like I say, it will take time for things to settle. This is to be expected.

[Poopadoop]

Can't argue with this kind of logic.

https://twitter.com/TobyonTV/status/1349707738583093248

But, I'm not sure that will keep Scotland in the Union.

[OngBonga]

"Unsold fish are rotting on docks"

I dunno why but I read this to the tune of Blame Canada, where Kyle's Mom sings "Times have changed, our kids are getting worse".

[Poopadoop]

https://twitter.com/i/events/1349713615612309504

Over/under on how long it takes them to make the inevitable embarrassing U-turn this time?

[Poopadoop]

"Unsold fish are rotting on docks"

I dunno why but I read this to the tune of Blame Canada, where Kyle's Mom sings "Times have changed, our kids are getting worse".

But they're happy fish, that's the key. They've got their UK passports now. #MESA

[OngBonga]

I mean what's funny is that people are taking him seriously. He's clearly taking the piss. Whether he should be taking the piss in that environment is a different matter, but if you're going to criticise him, do so for not taking it seriously, rather than him saying fish are happier being British.

[OngBonga]

"Rees-Mogg and all of these Johnson MPs are takin the pis* out of the UK, every last one of them."

Like this guy.

[Poopadoop]

I mean what's funny is that people are taking him seriously. He's clearly taking the piss. Whether he should be taking the piss in that environment is a different matter, but if you're going to criticise him, do so for not taking it seriously, rather than him saying fish are happier being British.

He's basically saying "lolfishermen. Fuck 'em."

But hey, glad to see you're keeping things in perspective. Focus on what's important like what some random bozos on twitter say, rather than what Mogg says.

[OngBonga]

It's like you didn't even see the next post I made.

[OngBonga]

I mean I actually agree with that guy whose tweet I quoted. It doesn't matter what Rees-Mogg said, what matters is hes not taking it seriously. He's dismissing the issue, which I do not approve of.

I couldn't give a fuck about the actual words. He made a fucking joke, a bad one, but it was a joke.

[Poopadoop]

It's like you didn't even see the next post I made.

I saw it but had no idea what your complaint was, except that some random unknown person on social media said something you didn't approve of.

[OngBonga]

I saw it but had no idea what your complaint was, except that some random unknown person on social media said something you didn't approve of.

You've misinterpreted my comment. Try again under the assumption that I approve of that tweet.

[Poopadoop]

I mean I actually agree with that guy whose tweet I quoted. It doesn't matter what Rees-Mogg said, what matters is hes not taking it seriously. He's dismissing the issue, which I do not approve of.

Well yeah, that's the point exactly (mark your calendar, we agreed again). But I don't know why you didn't just say "yeah what a twat" and leave it at that instead of bringing up what some randos were saying about it.

[OngBonga]

Rees Mogg is a twat. There you go.

[Poopadoop]

Rumour is there's plans to dump tons of rotting fish on the Parliament lawn. I would definitely love to see the PMQs where Starmer asks Boris "What's that smell?"

[Poopadoop]

You know the EU set out something like $5b to help its fishermen through this "transition period". The UK gave how much again? £100m? £200m? Seems like they really don't care about fishermen do they?

[OngBonga]

These problems do need to be sorted out. They should already have been to a certain degree. There's a period of adjustment, naturally, so maybe this is just a "hiccup", like I said earlier. Or maybe this is exactly what the future holds. But if we can't sell fish to Europe, then alternative markets need to be sourced. They shouldn't rot. I mean at worst it's cat food. I'm sure Whiskers would buy this fish, just not at the same price that Spain would buy it for humans.

At this moment in time, my assumption is this is a transitional problem that will be resolved in due course. The length of time it takes to resolve these paperwork issues should become shorter as we adjust. Nobody said it was going to be smooth.

[OngBonga]

You know the EU set out something like $5b to help its fishermen through this "transition period". The UK gave how much again? £100m? £200m? Seems like they really don't care about fishermen do they?

So around 3x as much per capita. Is their industry 3x larger than ours per capita? It's easy to point to figures without context. On the surface I'd be inclined to agree that £200m is insufficient, but we'll see if more is forthcoming.

[Poopadoop]

Nobody said it was going to be smooth.

Between you and banana today I haven't laughed this much in a long time.

[OngBonga]

Between you and banana today I haven't laughed this much in a long time.

Come on dude, don't be insincere. I never suggested it would be smooth. I always anticipated problems as we transition from member state to economic independence.

[Poopadoop]

So around 3x as much per capita.

Kinda misses the point that it was our idea to leave. That might make one inclined to think we have a greater moral obligation to our fishermen than the EU.

Or if not, yeah 1/3 the support per capita is still bad enough.

[Poopadoop]

Come on dude, don't be insincere. I never suggested it would be smooth. I always anticipated problems as we transition from member state to economic independence.

You didnt' say "I" you said "Nobody."

We both know a lot of people said it would be smooth. Don't make me provide the long list of quotes again.

[OngBonga]

You didnt' say "I" you said "Nobody."

We both know a lot of people said it would be smooth. Don't make me provide the long list of quotes again.

Yeah go on, go find someone who literally said the word "smooth". Then I'll argue that the word "nobody" was hyperbole and was intended to mean "very few people".

[OngBonga]

Kinda misses the point that it was our idea to leave. That might make one inclined to think we have a greater moral obligation to our fishermen than the EU.

Or if not, yeah 1/3 the support per capita is still bad enough.

Clearly the government need to help prop up the industry while we transition. I don't disagree with this, and I don't believe the figures quoted are sufficient. But what do I know? Maybe the EU are throwing more money than needs be in an attempt to shame the UK. Who knows? £200m is still a lot of money.

[Poopadoop]

Yeah go on, go find someone who literally said the word "smooth". Then I'll argue that the word "nobody" was hyperbole and was intended to mean "very few people".

Reductio ad Ong.

[OngBonga]

You reduce the convo on a regular basis.

[Poopadoop]

You reduce the convo on a regular basis.

Well you got me there. I guess then nobody said anything about holding all the cards, or an easy transition to frictionless trade, or sunlit uplands, or anything like that. Or if they did, it was only a very few people who happened to be selling it to the rest of you mugs.

[Poopadoop]

Funny I keep seeing all these articles about the problems Brexit is causing and not even a single one about where to go to get my sunlit uplands.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-b1786682.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55633632

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...warn-1.4454431

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/uk-fi...rexit-reality/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...buying-from-uk

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...jumps-ship-eu/

[Poopadoop]

https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/sta...05584007245826

[OngBonga]

[deleted]

[OngBonga]

Oops wrong thread.

[The Bean Counter]

Was never going to be smooth as soon as we were a year from exit and had no deal documented. Then we waited another 360-ish days to make a deal. Fuck knows how much that will cost the UK taxpayer. That said, the company I work for moved quickly in ditching some of their British suppliers and taking deliveries into Heathrow, in favour of mainland Europe. Fair few British jobs lost as a result.

I've not looked that closely at the deal, but I'm assuming its lipstick on the pig that was the Theresa May deal?

[Poopadoop]

I've not looked that closely at the deal, but I'm assuming its lipstick on the pig that was the Theresa May deal?

It's better than No Deal which would have been a complete disaster. It's only a partial disaster.

Nothing for free trade of services, which is why all the EU money is leaving London. That's the biggest hit, unless you think London being too prosperous compared to the rest of the country is a problem that needs redressing. This is one way to do that.

Free trade of goods, but with customs checks and paperwork added on, so basically everything coming in and going out is delayed and effectively "taxed" through increased bureaucracy. And obviously all the just-in-time shipments are going to have to re-jigged, with the exception of perishables which either will have to be sold locally or dumped on the Westminster lawn.

Also, some stupid rule about VAT having to be paid on exports by the receiver, with documentation, or something stupid like that which makes it even more of a pain in the ass to import from the UK to the EU.

Level playing field means we don't have to live by EU rules (#MESA), except if we want to keep trading with them.

Hard border between Eng/Sc/Wales and NI, so NI is effectively in the EU and out of the UK as far as trade goes.

Some long-term recovery of fishing rights but nowhere to sell them outside of the UK so definitely good for fish stocks. Shipping the fish to China instead probably isn't going to be a viable option.

Last-minute deal means gov't couldn't give detailed advice on post-Brexit trade to businesses (because they didn't know themselves if/what the Deal would be), so basically told companies to figure it out for themselves. So extra costs for having to do that.

[OngBonga]

You know the EU set out something like $5b to help its fishermen through this "transition period". The UK gave how much again? £100m? £200m? Seems like they really don't care about fishermen do they?

It didn't immediately occur to me, but I've been thinking about this and you know what? This kind of implies that this is worse for the EU than it is for the UK. I mean, the less money we need to prop up the industry, the better, right? If the EU are throwing £5b at their fishing industry, what does that actually tell you? That's the damage Brexit has done to THEIR fishing industry, not ours.

[Poopadoop]

It didn't immediately occur to me, but I've been thinking about this and you know what? This kind of implies that this is worse for the EU than it is for the UK. I mean, the less money we need to prop up the industry, the better, right? If the EU are throwing £5b at their fishing industry, what does that actually tell you? That's the damage Brexit has done to THEIR fishing industry, not ours.

Either that or they're just more supportive of fishermen than a gov't who lied to them and told them Brexit would be all puppies and rainbows. My money is on the latter, but I suppose time will tell whose fishing industry suffers more.

[Poopadoop]

https://twitter.com/aileen_boughen/s...09104056602629

Dump the fish! Dump the fish! Dump the fish!

[Mr.Banana]

[Poopadoop]

WTF? I was promised sunlit uplands, not #BrexitCarnage. Where's my goddamned sunlit uplands?

https://twitter.com/EuropeanUnity1/s...55962104049666

[OngBonga]

Has oskar got his bike yet?

[oskar]

Has oskar got his bike yet?

Funny you should ask!
Has not shipped yet.
I mailed them twice to fix the billing error two weeks apart. I'll mail them again tomorrow. I looked up the details on how taxation and import works post brexit but there's so much confusing and conflicting information, I gave up.

I'll ask them nicely to either make sure I don't get taxed twice and don't have to pay import duty, or else to cancel the order.

The problem is that while UK goods are duty exempt under the free trade agreement, the seller has to provide paperwork to customs that a certain percentage of the sold goods originates from the UK. I'm buying from Dolan and they're using mostly housebrand parts, but who knows where they are manufactured, if that counts as UK manufactured or not and how you would go about calculating a percentage from that.

In addition to that, having to pay VAT on import means that everything that is imported has to be held up, then customs has to decide what the vat rate is for the product and if import duty needs to be applied, bill the recipient (which happens by mail because they go by invoice) and only then can it leave customs. I know DHL has customs in-house which makes things go faster, but it depends on the carrier.

And that's for one EU country. Different rules, vat rates and import duty rules for every single EU country, so the seller cannot possibly predict the total price for the customer.

So even if things smooth out, just the uncertainty of dealing with UK retailers will make it not worth ordering from them until a proper free trade deal is reached or the UK rejoins the EU.

[Poopadoop]

Do you like 7-day-old fish? I'm pretty sure we can cut you a deal.

[oskar]

Scottish fiserhmen fucked by Brexit. #MESA

I haven't seen too much of Boris but if that's the amount of competence on display, I'm not surprised. How hard would it be to just shut this down with platitudes whether or not you have a plan. What possible upside is there to shouting: Well you tried to get out of this mess I put you in and for this show of disloyalty you deserve to be in it!
Really?

[Poopadoop]

Yeah, he's pretty damn hard to take. It's one disaster after another, with the worst covid death rate in the world right now, biggest hit to the economy in the developed world, a shit last-minute Brexit deal, shoveling wheelbarrows full of money to his mates in dodgy contracts, and on and on. The latest scandal is that they, somehow, just accidentally deleted > 400k police records.

And whenever he gets called out on any of it, he always takes the same gaslighting approach you'd expect from a Britain Trump: "We're doing a great job and you should be thanking us." Fuck me.

[Poopadoop]

Can't wait to hear how this is good for us.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-up-shop-in-eu

[The Bean Counter]

Can't wait to hear how this is good for us.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-up-shop-in-eu

Lots of companies already did this. Think I already mentioned that the company i work for moved printing and shipping to mainland Europe, while diverting deliveries of stock into Heathrow over to Schiphol.

I sometimes wonder how many people lost their jobs in the UK as a result. Then I wonder how many of those voted for Brexit.

[Poopadoop]

Yeah, but #MEGA

https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/st...96140423335936

btw, if you're looking for some laughs, Andrea Jenkyns' twitter account is a good place to go. She was wishing Trump gl in the election, telling Boris to "walk away" from the trade talks with the EU, and then a few days later praising him for making a "great deal."

lololololololol

[OngBonga]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55822602

This would be funny if it wasn't so serious. Fuck it, it's funny anyway.

The EU made orders three months after the UK, are yet to approve this vaccine, yet are moaning about them not getting what they ordered in the timescale they expected. The funny part is where they insist that vaccines made in the UK should make up the shortfall, while also threatening to restrict exports of the vaccine from the EU. It's like they think we're still in the EU. Fuck off. If they restrict exports, they are well within their rights to do so. So are we.

What the EU fear the most is a post-Brexit vaccinated UK, with a recovering economy, while they are still in lockdown.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Sounds like a valid claim for breech of contract if money was exchanged by the EU to facilitate the production of the vaccines in the UK with the agreement that investment would purchase the vaccines when produced.

I understand the dark reality of sending vaccines away when your people need the vaccines, but if I read that right, your people wouldn't have as many vaccines if not for that upfront investment by the EU.

Did I miss a pertinent fact in the article? It said the EU would receive 60% fewer vaccines than promised. How many fewer vaccines than expected is the UK keeping? I mean... did the UK plant make 100% of the expected amount they projected to make initially? Or did they actually produce 60% of their initial projection?

[OngBonga]

I don't think the vaccines produced in the UK are subject to the contract with the EU, I could be wrong though. The EU have centres in Belgium and the Netherlands. I mean, I obviously don't know the details of the contract, nobody does because of confidentiality clauses put into the contract, so idk about "valid claim for breach of contract". That's for the lawyers to sort out if it gets that far. Chances are though that the EU is just making a public statement to convince EU citizens the EU is doing all it can. They're masking their incompetence.

As far as I'm aware, there have been fewer problems with UK production, largely because we made orders three months before the EU, which means three months more to sort out any unforeseen problems.

As for EU funding, the UK chose not to get involved in the EU vaccination program as we felt it would mean we would have less control over prices and availability. We decided to fund it ourselves. The EU might well have contributed toward research, but that doesn't give them an automatic right to vaccines made outside the bloc. It gives them an automatic right to produce the vaccine in the EU, which they are doing.

The problem I have with this is that the EU seem to be suggesting that vaccines made in the EU are theirs, and vaccines made outside the EU are also theirs. They can't have it both ways. It's not the UK's fault that the EU decided two production centres was enough for 450m people.

[Poopadoop]

What I heard is that the production centres in the EU had problems with a batch so a lot less of the AZ vaccine was produced there than was planned.

But overall, if the company decides to pick who suffers from the shortfall, then that won't fly in court i don't think. The EU wants to put pressure on them by saying "well fuck your country then we'll not send you the vaccines we promised." Which is pretty hardball but they have a point. As much as I'm keen to get vaccinated I think the company making AZ needs to play fair, which means an equal reduction in shipments to all of their customer countries.

The irony is if we were still in the EU they probably couldn't stop the shipments of vaccines over here. But now they can.

[Poopadoop]

And lol at calling the EU incompetent when we just passed 100k deaths here. Ffs, what show have you been watching. The ONLY thing we have done right here is get the vaccinations rolling quickly, and there's still time for them to mess that up.

[Poopadoop]

I mean, if you want to see incompetence, watch how Boris deals with questions in parliament, by not answering them no matter how serious they are, but attacking the questioner.

The lowlight from this week comes at 12.20, when he shittalks the leader of the opposition, gets told off by the Speaker, then it goes back to LoP who asks a final question that puts the dagger in him.

[OngBonga]

I like how your response to "incompetence" it what you guys refer to "whataboutism".

I mean, if you want to play that game, Europe is the worst performing continent per capita in the world. The UK's per capita fatality rate is not much higher than the EU in general, and lower than some EU countries, in particular Slovenia, Belgium and San Marino, with Italy and Czech right up there too. Furthermore, the UK is recording deaths as covid-related pretty liberally, if some reports are to be believed. For example, based on some quick dirty googling, there were 394 deaths in England between January and August 2020 due to... flu. Normally, around 17000 people die of flu per year in England. So I for one certainly believe there is manipulation of the figures. But this is speculative, I freely admit that.

There's politics at play with all this. Does anyone really believe someone sent a bomb to a vaccination centre? Or was the a convenient way for the pharma company to avoid talking to the EU? Yeah we want to talk, but soz, we have a security problem, maybe next week.

The EU doesn't want to see the UK economy recover before theirs, and we don't want to see their economy recover before ours. Who's the cat? Who's the mouse? Your guess is as good as mine.

[OngBonga]

Oh I forgot to mention, the UK is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe. Of course we'll get hit harder by a viral pandemic.

[OngBonga]

They won't mess up the vaccination program. This is what it's all about. The pharma companies want to sell vaccines. The govt are in bed with pharma companies. There's probably more to it than that, too, perhaps in 2025 we'll need a vaccination passport to catch the bus into town. So this is where the govt show they're actually very competent.

Corruption, not incompetence.

[Poopadoop]

Having one of the worst gov'ts in the world at managing a pandemic but calling other gov'ts incompetent? That's just hypocrisy.

If you've forgotten the list of mismanagement, let's go through that:

Shaking hands with covid patients in hospitals- showing Britain Trump-level stupidity
Failing to get adequate stocks of PPE
Slow to lockdown in March, seriously flirting with "herd immunity" strategy
Shuffled seniors out of hospitals into care homes without a covid test
Slow to lockdown in November, against SAGE advice
Slow to lockdown in January, against SAGE advice
Allowed a gov't advisor to go on a covid tour of the country without any recriminations
Gave TTI to a party crony with no experience, who completely fucked it up
Encouraged people to go eat out at restaurants in the summer, like there wasn't a deadly virus going around
Encouraging people to meet up in groups at xmas time, and then u-turning at the last minute
The whole other series of u-turns that itself could make a long list
Failed to provide financial support for the self-employed, and still failing almost a year later
Just now talking about closing the borders, nearly a year after they should have
Still no mandatory mask requirement
Trying to blame the spread of the virus on the people rather than their own dithering on policy and unclear advice

Saying "I'm really sorry about all those dead people" a year later, while still not fixing the problems, and saying we don't need an inquiry, is just not good enough.

I also think you need to stop being so eager to leap into the paranoid conspiracy theories about what's going on with the vaccine supplies. I'm sure there's politics involved. I'm equally sure that if our own vax rollout starts to go tits-up the gov't will blame anyone and everyone but themselves. As for who sent the powder, I seriously doubt it was some ploy they cooked up so they wouldn't have to answer the phone - more likely it was some anti-vaxxer nutjob who thinks the vax contains a microchip or whatever.

[OngBonga]

Having one of the worst gov'ts in the world

Imagine actually thinking this.

That's just hypocrisy.

Not at all. I just don't agree that the UK govt is "incompetent", I believe they are highly competent, and very corrupt.

And that list is massive "whataboutism" yet again. You're so fast to call me out on this kind of thing, and you even have the nerve to call me a hypocrite.

I mean, I wasn't talking about UK incompetency. I was talking about EU incompetency. Your response is "what about Boris". It's like any criticism of the EU, even justified, presses your buttons.

I also think you need to stop being so eager to leap into the paranoid conspiracy theories about what's going on with the vaccine supplies.

At least this is a conversation. I know we're miles apart when it comes to "conspiracies", but I can at least respect your position here. I am acutely aware that such theories may well stem from paranoia. But, as Kurt Cobain once said, "just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you". It's funny that I seem to have less trust for our government than you, while you are super eager to criticise them. What is clear to me is that you cannot for the life of you accept they might be corrupt rather than incompetent. You just really want to call Boris stupid, but the crazy thing about that is, stupidity isn't a crime. Corruption is.

I'm equally sure that if our own vax rollout starts to go tits-up the gov't will blame anyone and everyone but themselves.

It's also amusing that you call me paranoid, then start saying things like this which is based on nothing but your perception of the govt. I'm not even saying you're wrong, but this is no different to believing a "conspiracy". You're making assumptions.

[CoccoBill]

I like how your response to "incompetence" it what you guys refer to "whataboutism".

I mean, if you want to play that game, Europe is the worst performing continent per capita in the world. The UK's per capita fatality rate is not much higher than the EU in general, and lower than some EU countries, in particular Slovenia, Belgium and San Marino, with Italy and Czech right up there too. Furthermore, the UK is recording deaths as covid-related pretty liberally, if some reports are to be believed. For example, based on some quick dirty googling, there were 394 deaths in England between January and August 2020 due to... flu. Normally, around 17000 people die of flu per year in England. So I for one certainly believe there is manipulation of the figures. But this is speculative, I freely admit that.

There's politics at play with all this. Does anyone really believe someone sent a bomb to a vaccination centre? Or was the a convenient way for the pharma company to avoid talking to the EU? Yeah we want to talk, but soz, we have a security problem, maybe next week.

The EU doesn't want to see the UK economy recover before theirs, and we don't want to see their economy recover before ours. Who's the cat? Who's the mouse? Your guess is as good as mine.

The EU conspires to make UK not recover, the UK administration conspires by manipulating covid and flu data, AZ conspires against the EU...I wouldn't wanna live in your world lol.

Btw flu deaths are down globally, mainly because the same measures that we're doing to fight covid are also excellent against that.

There's 27 countries in the EU, 3 of which are doing worse than the UK, therefore UK is doing pretty great? Yeah that's an honest an unbiased assessment. Dude, your situation per capita is the worst on the planet.

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavir...pickerSort=asc

[Poopadoop]

Imagine actually thinking this.

Imagine thinking we have one of the worst gov'ts in the world at managing a pandemic when we also have one of the worst death rates in the world from said pandemic?

Not at all. I just don't agree that the UK govt is "incompetent", I believe they are highly competent, and very corrupt.

They are both incompetent and corrupt. They are not mutually exclusive things, cf Donald Trump. There is a reason Boris is being called "Britain Trump."

And that list is massive "whataboutism" yet again. You're so fast to call me out on this kind of thing, and you even have the nerve to call me a hypocrite.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of your position is not whataboutism, and it's not nervy either. You just don't like it because it makes it harder for you to pull out the hypocrisy card in future.

I mean, I wasn't talking about UK incompetency. I was talking about EU incompetency. Your response is "what about Boris". It's like any criticism of the EU, even justified, presses your buttons.

Let's go back to that criticism then. You called them incompetent because an AZ plant on EU soil got a bad batch of the vaccine, AZ is threatening to withhold shipment of vaccines made elsewhere to the EU, and they are threatening to do the reverse with a different vaccine. Where is the incompetence? Seems like they're trying pretty hard to protect their citizens to me.

What is clear to me is that you cannot for the life of you accept they might be corrupt rather than incompetent.

Then you haven't been paying attention to all the times I've pointed out their corruption. Even the list I gave mentoins it.

You seem to have this idea they can either be clever and corrupt or incompetent and honest. The evidence is that they're both corrupt and incompetent.

It's also amusing that you call me paranoid,

I'm glad you're so amused. At least that means you don't think I'm in on it.

then start saying things like this which is based on nothing but your perception of the govt. I'm not even saying you're wrong, but this is no different to believing a "conspiracy". You're making assumptions.

Your getting detached from reality here. When the gov't try to blame everyone else for their fuckups, arguing that IF they fuckup the vaccine rollout they'll use the same tactic again is a rational prediction based on past behaviour. There is evidence to support this prediction.

Saying AZ sent themselves anthrax or w/e to avoid having to talk to the EU is tinfoil hat, cloud cuckoo land level fantasy. There is no evidence that is what happened. It doesn't even make sense.

[Poopadoop]

The EU conspires to make UK not recover, the UK administration conspires by manipulating covid and flu data, AZ conspires against the EU...I wouldn't wanna live in your world lol.

+1

[OngBonga]

I wouldn't wanna live in your world lol

I don't lose any sleep over it. The difference between me and 99% of conspiracy theorists is I freely admit I might be wrong, and actually hope to be. I'd rather be paranoid than live in the world I fear we live in. It's not the same kind of paranoia as thinking people in the street are devils. This isn't insanity. It's a heavy dose of skepticism.

Btw flu deaths are down globally, mainly because the same measures that we're doing to fight covid are also excellent against that.

So the measures we take can almost wipe out flu, but can't touch covid? It's this kind of logic that takes me into paranoid territory. It's easier to believe the people who control the world are corrupt as fuck and have no regard whatsoever for the lives of ordinary people. What's ridiculous is we all know that those in power are corrupt, that's not something I believe we disagree on, yet you still trust them. I don't.

therefore UK is doing pretty great?

Please show me where I said that.

[OngBonga]

Imagine thinking we have one of the worst gov'ts in the world at managing a pandemic when we also have one of the worst death rates in the world from said pandemic?

I like how you add the caveat "managing a pandemic". You didn't say that before. You simply said we had one of the worst governments in the world. Not even close.

They are both incompetent and corrupt. They are not mutually exclusive things, cf Donald Trump. There is a reason Boris is being called "Britain Trump."

No they're not mutually exclusive, but if you are capable of fooling the nation into think Dominic Cummings went to "test his eyesight" next to GSK two days before GSK announced a vaccine deal, while getting away with enormous corruption, I think that's highly competent. They might not be competent at doing what we the people expect them to do, but our expectations don't match reality.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of your position is not whataboutism

You completely imagined hypocrisy. This claim is based purely off me calling the EU "incompetent". I didn't say we're not at this stage. And since then I've clarified that I don't think our govt is incompetent, just very corrupt. You disagree, you say we're incompetent, which makes me a hypocrite. You do not argue in good faith, poop. I do. I might talk out of my arse, but I don't do what you're doing here. This is bad form. I am not a hypocrite simply for calling the EU incompetent. Banana got banned for this kind of debate.

Where is the incompetence? Seems like they're trying pretty hard to protect their citizens to me.

I'm calling them incompetent because they took three months longer than the UK to place their orders. And they still haven't cleared it for us yet. What do you call this if not incompetency? Pull your dick out of their arse for just a minute to ponder that. They're doing a shit job of protecting their citizens. Our govt is doing a shit job of that too. I just think in our case it's by design. Perhaps it is with the EU too, maybe they're highly competent and very corrupt too, perhaps this is all part of their plan to make more money.

You seem to have this idea they can either be clever and corrupt or incompetent and honest. The evidence is that they're both corrupt and incompetent.

They're competent because they get away with their corruption while maintaining a society that is wealthy enough to be happy. They are far from stupid. Incompetent governments get overthrown, or voted out.

Saying AZ sent themselves anthrax or w/e to avoid having to talk to the EU is tinfoil hat, cloud cuckoo land level fantasy. There is no evidence that is what happened. It doesn't even make sense.

It's more believable than someone actually taking the time to send a bomb or anthrax or whatever to a vaccination centre. If you're that kind of messed up, you pick a better fucking target than that. Such as the government.

[OngBonga]

Just a quick question and not something I want to start a discussion on for obvious reasons, but...

Who here thinks 9/11 was an "inside job" or whatever?

The reason I ask is because I think this is a defining moment in my life when it comes to "conspiracy theories". That changed the way I saw the world forever. From that moment, I never trusted government, never trusted the media, never trusted the system we live in. If they can do that, they can do anything. That showed me these people aren't made of the same emotions as I am. And this comes from someone who believes himself to be a sociopath. The world is run by psychopaths, not sociopaths.

But if you believe what they say about 9/11, I get why things like covid hoax seem ridiculous. You didn't have that moment where you lost all faith in the people who control our societies.