*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

[OngBonga]

It was only today I finally thought to myself "aw spoon has gone again" and then you come back with this pearl of wisdom.

Yes. Yes it is.

[Poopadoop]

Yeah Ong, usually we have to rely on you for all our pearls of wisdom itt.

[OngBonga]

idk, that was a pearl of wisdom, thanks for that insight.

[spoonitnow]

It was only today I finally thought to myself "aw spoon has gone again" and then you come back with this pearl of wisdom.

Yes. Yes it is.

Well I like to feel included and all.

[Poopadoop]

#MEGA by getting everyone to leave.

https://twitter.com/Quicktake/status...77298078527492

[MadMojoMonkey]

"In the short-term, the long-term impact is not good"

Sheesh.

[Poopadoop]

^ Not exactly what she meant I don't think.

I took it more as "it may be easier to get a job those immigrants left behind (short-term), but the economy as a whole will miss them (long-term)."

It's like saying "This is good news if your ambition is to pick fruit or serve coffee in a london cafe for subsistence wages, but if you're anyone else, it's not so good."

[spoonitnow]

The economy as a whole supposedly suffers anytime something is done for lower-level working class people, so whatever.

[OngBonga]

Oh good mojo hasn't left. I was slightly worried.

And oh look, many days of silence broken by poop still complaining about Brexit.

I stopped watching immediately. "More people mean a bigger economy". Oh really? That must be why we have a bigger economy than fucking Brazil, and why Canada has a bigger economy than Russia. Just utter bollocks right off the bat.

Fuck it, I'll keep watching, should be more fun.

That was a dirty paraphrase by mojo, I have to say.

"And although fewer workers could mean more jobs in the short term, the long term impact on the economy is not so good".

The context changes a lot when you add those first few words. Her sentence structure is fine.

I see the Hong Kong issue is addressed here. Hongkongers certainly are ideal migrants. So too are European migrants. If we're replacing Europeans with Hongkongers, we don't really have a problem. Covid has hammered our economy so much that we have lots of unemployed people. I don't think there will be a problem with finding fruit pickers in 2021.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Heh. I was half-listening I guess. Oops. Pretty shameful to quote so badly out of context. Feels bad, man.


No, not gone. Just ... IDK ... feeling like sometimes I'm my dumbest self on FTR. Wanted to get a break, and then this is how I come back.

Like I read a post by spoon and then immediately forgot it and asked him a question and he just linked to a post I'd just read, and I felt really dumb. I wanted a break 'cause I'm not usually so dumb.

Meh. It's not like anyone here is setting a high bar for deep and thoughtful content, and that's nothing new.

IDK. Just going through some stuff. It's been a doozy of a year, and shit's catching up with me.

[Poopadoop]

I stopped watching immediately. "More people mean a bigger economy". Oh really? That must be why we have a bigger economy than fucking Brazil, and why Canada has a bigger economy than Russia. Just utter bollocks right off the bat.

It's not an issue with the size of the population it's an issue with having the right balance of people to do the jobs that need to be done.

I see the Hong Kong issue is addressed here. Hongkongers certainly are ideal migrants. So too are European migrants. If we're replacing Europeans with Hongkongers, we don't really have a problem. Covid has hammered our economy so much that we have lots of unemployed people. I don't think there will be a problem with finding fruit pickers in 2021.

I'll bet people will be coming in droves from their urban high paying jobs in HK to look for jobs picking fruit here yes.

Lol, you should really go back and read stuff before you press post.

Covid has hammered our economy so much that we have lots of unemployed people.

All indications are the jobs lost due to lockdown will come back once lockdown ends. It's not those jobs you should worry about. Little Tommy who slung pints in the pub will get his job back once the pubs open up again.

You should worry about the huge drop in exports and how many jobs that will cost.

I don't think there will be a problem with finding fruit pickers in 2021.

And yet at the height of the pandemic when people here were unemployed en masse they still had problems finding fruit pickers from the UK, despite the "Pick for Britain" scheme that was launched; 89% were from abroad.

But now we're in BrexitLand and regular jobs are opening again people here will be flocking to the fields to pick fruit lol. Maybe all the fishermen who are going out of business can do it.

[OngBonga]

@mojo - If you want to remind yourself you're definitely not dumb, go to the physics thread and tell me what the fuck they think they've found in these muon experiments at Fermilab.

[OngBonga]

I'll bet people will be coming in droves from their urban high paying jobs in HK to look for jobs picking fruit here yes.

haha you should go back and watch the links you post. They're not all high performers, some of them are artists. I reckon an artist escaping Chinese oppression would be delighted to pick fruit in a stable democracy while painting in their spare time.

All indications are the jobs lost due to lockdown will come back once lockdown ends.

Some will, some won't. Over time the economy will recover, mostly, but lots of pubs are finished, with no guarantee new pubs emerge to replace them.

You should worry about the huge drop in exports and how many jobs that will cost.

If you believe this, then you should also be thinking it's a really good thing that people are leaving the UK, since that frees up work for natives. I mean, on the one hand you're saying it's bad these people are leaving, and on the other you're predicting terrible job losses.

And yet at the height of the pandemic when people here were unemployed en masse they still had problems finding fruit pickers from the UK

I didn't notice any shortages of British strawberries.

[Poopadoop]

haha you should go back and watch the links you post. They're not all high performers, some of them are artists. I reckon an artist escaping Chinese oppression would be delighted to pick fruit in a stable democracy while painting in their spare time.

Do you think so? I'm not sure backbreaking work makes anyone happy. I think people do it 'cause they can make good money at it short term and/or because they don't have any better options.

My guess is, escaping Chinese oppression or not, the overwhelming majority of people who come here from HK will not be looking for, or have any skill at, farm labouring jobs.

Some will, some won't. Over time the economy will recover, mostly, but lots of pubs are finished, with no guarantee new pubs emerge to replace them.

Most will I think. It's not that hard to open a pub.

If you believe this, then you should also be thinking it's a really good thing that people are leaving the UK, since that frees up work for natives. I mean, on the one hand you're saying it's bad these people are leaving, and on the other you're predicting terrible job losses.

The reason the foreigners were here in the first place is because they were doing the jobs and living in conditions the natives weren't prepared to do and tolerate. If you think British people will be happy to do those jobs and share a closet-sized flat in London with five other people that begs the question of why we ever had immigrant labour doing here in the first place.

I didn't notice any shortages of British strawberries.

Brexit became official on Jan. 1, 2021 mate. It was still easy to import EU labour last year. Not anymore.

[OngBonga]

Do you think so? I'm not sure backbreaking work makes anyone happy. I think people do it 'cause they can make good money at it short term and/or because they don't have any better options.

Why do Poles do it? What makes a Hongkongese artist any more qualified for a high quality job than a regular Pole? Maybe the Hongkonger doesn't have any better options. Of course you're right, nobody wants a career in fruit picking, that's hardly ambition, but it's better than being oppressed.

My guess is, escaping Chinese oppression or not, the overwhelming majority of people who come here from HK will not be looking for, or have any skill at, farm labouring jobs.

It's not a skilled job. Anyone able bodied can be trained to do it in an hour.

Most will I think. It's not that hard to open a pub.

Pubs have been in decline for a long time, pretty much since the smoking ban. This is the final nail in the coffin for many entertainment establishments. I suspect pubs will get a rather nice boost once we're back up and running, but it will be short lived since money is tight. But we'll see. I'd very much like to be proven wrong on this point.

The reason the foreigners were here in the first place is because they were doing the jobs and living in conditions the natives weren't prepared to do and tolerate. If you think British people will be happy to do those jobs and share a closet-sized flat in London with five other people that begs the question of why we ever had immigrant labour doing here in the first place.

The economic landscape is very much different right now. We might have problems in 2022 onwards, but this season I doubt it. Too many people desperate for work.

Brexit became official on Jan. 1, 2021 mate. It was still easy to import EU labour last year. Not anymore.

You just said we struggled for pickers last year, not you're saying we didn't? Please clarify which one it is.

[Poopadoop]

Why do Poles do it?

Because they want to make what to them is a good chunk of money before going back to Poland for the winter. Because doing a shitty job for what to them is a good chunk of money appeals to them. Because they have no better prospects where they come from.

I really can't believe I have to explain things like this to you.

What makes a Hongkongese artist any more qualified for a high quality job than a regular Pole?

I don't know, being able to create art? Or are you saying they'd rather give up being an artist so they can pick fruit? And why are we talking about artists anyways? Do you think that's what everyone in HK does for a living?

Maybe the Hongkonger doesn't have any better options. Of course you're right, nobody wants a career in fruit picking, that's hardly ambition, but it's better than being oppressed.

So his choice is between being oppressed in HK in a prosperous part of the world with a good standard of living and hardly any covid, and picking fruit for a few months a year on Plague Island. You are seeing unicorns if you think that the chance to pick fruit is going to be a reason any of them come here. They will come and look for a decent job, something similar to whatever they do in HK. I'd be very surprised if even one of them comes here to pick fruit. What are they going to do when the season is over? Go back to HK? Oh I know, they'll go do all those shitty cleaning jobs the Poles were doing in London that no-one else wants either. Two problems solved at once! It'll be a Brexit Miracle!

It's not a skilled job. Anyone able bodied can be trained to do it in an hour.

You still have to want to do it. You're hoping that someone from HK will think coming here to pick fruit and live in relative poverty is their best option.

The economic landscape is very much different right now. We might have problems in 2022 onwards, but this season I doubt it. Too many people desperate for work.

Maybe. But people were desperate for work in 2020 too and wouldn't do it. And even if they give in and do it this year, then if the pandemic ends and there's no-one left to pick fruit in 2022, then what?

You just said we struggled for pickers last year, not you're saying we didn't? Please clarify which one it is.

The pandemic made it harder for people to come from abroad. Ergo, there was a shortage of foreign workers in 2020. They tried a campaign to hire native Brits to do it instead, but they couldn't, despite all the unemployment around. So, the farmers had to find ways to bring in foreign workers, even though it was a huge pain in the ass.

Now it's 2021 and on top of the pandemic we have Brexit. Please don't ask me to explain why Brexit will make it even harder to bring in foreign workers this year than it was in 2020.

[OngBonga]

Because they want to make what to them is a good chunk of money before going back to Poland for the winter.

You think so? I'm not sure too many of them are in a hurry to go back home for winter. Polish winter is brutal compared to British winter. And their summer is much better than ours. They're here simply because it's a better standard of living, all year round.

Fruit pickers earn minimum wage. After their living expenses and alcohol (they really like a drink) they won't have much money left from a fruit picking job. They'd be lucky to save up enough money to get back home and then return to England in the spring.

I think you're mistaken.

I really can't believe I have to explain things like this to you.

I've worked with Poles at a hotel. The guys I was working with were on a ten year plan to save up and return home relatively wealthy, with a solid grasp of English and decent work experience. Of course, they too were on minimum wage (or close to), but working for a hotel, they provided accommodation so they didn't have to pay rent. Huge savings. Fruit pickers don't have this luxury.

I don't know, being able to create art?

actual lol

My ex is a fantastic artist. I'm not saying that out of bias, she is hugely talented. She earns close to fuck all from art. The vast majority of artists do it because they love it and make very little money from it. Hong Kong artists are not going to make a living from art in the UK, with very few exceptions.

Or are you saying they'd rather give up being an artist so they can pick fruit?

Art is, for the most part, a hobby, not a job. 99.9% of artists need a job.

And why are we talking about artists anyways?

Because the video you linked mentioned Hong Kong artists, to make the point they are not all hedge fund managers. Do us a favour and watch it again.

So his choice is between being oppressed in HK in a prosperous part of the world with a good standard of living and hardly any covid, and picking fruit for a few months a year on Plague Island.

Do you really think Chinese oppression is not as bad as a virus with a 99%+ survival rate? I think you'll find that Hong Kong citizens are far more concerned about the former than the latter.

You are seeing unicorns if you think that the chance to pick fruit is going to be a reason any of them come here.

It's one of a number of jobs they could get. Nobody is coming here with that ambition. But if it's all they can get, there's worse jobs out there. My best mate cleaned toilets at a twat pub for a while, how he did that I'll never know. Fun fact - women are much nastier than men when it comes to bogs in these kind of pubs.

I'd be very surprised if even one of them comes here to pick fruit.

Like I say, nobody comes here TO pick fruit. But many people come here and accept such a job.

What are they going to do when the season is over?

Clean hotel rooms? Pull pints if they can speak English? Stack shelves in Tesco? Christmas temp work for Amazon? There's lots of jobs over winter that are all preferable to Chinese oppression, which for some reason you seem to think is a better life than picking fruit and whatnot.

You still have to want to do it. You're hoping that someone from HK will think coming here to pick fruit and live in relative poverty is their best option.

It might be their only option, assuming staying in HK is not an option.

Maybe. But people were desperate for work in 2020 too and wouldn't do it. And even if they give in and do it this year, then if the pandemic ends and there's no-one left to pick fruit in 2022, then what?

We run out of strawberries.

Please don't ask me to explain why Brexit will make it even harder to bring in foreign workers this year than it was in 2020.

Brexit isn't a factor when it comes to Hong Kong though.

[Poopadoop]

We run out of strawberries.

And the people whose strawberry farms go bust can get jobs cleaning toilets in London. Bravo.

But wait, their farms won't go bust because there will be a mass influx of cheap agricultural labour from Hong Kong.

It's amazing, the unicorns are sprouting wings now.

[Poopadoop]

Fruit pickers earn minimum wage.

The minimum wage here is a lot higher than the minimum wage in Poland. There it's 614 Euros/month, here it is 1599. So these people make about 2.5 times as much working here than they would at similar jobs in Poland.

The cost of living in Poland is also about half what it is here. So making 2.5 x as much money that will go twice as far in their home country. That's a pretty sweet deal for them.

But sure, they could also stay here over the winter if they can find work. There's no rule that says they have to go back when fruit-picking season is over. It's just that a lot of them do because they come here to pick fruit, and can't find other jobs once the season has ended.

[OngBonga]

The minimum wage here is a lot higher than the minimum wage in Poland.

Yes. So too is a can of coke, a pack of ciggies, a pint of beer, a loaf of bread, a month's rent.

I've worked with plenty of Poles. Literally none of them went home for winter.

And the people whose strawberry farms go bust can get jobs cleaning toilets in London. Bravo.

Let me know when this actually happens, rather than it being something you imagine happening.

[Poopadoop]

I've worked with plenty of Poles. Literally none of them went home for winter.

I understand your personal experience working with Poles in hotels makes you an expert on immigrant farm labour from Poland. But, what I'm talking about is people who come here from Poland to pick fruit. It's seasonal labour. They can stay if they want, but they can also take what they've saved and go back home where it's worth a lot more. I personally think it's irrelevant what they do because either way they won't be coming this year because of Brexit. That's kind of the point you're so conveniently trying to deflect.

Let me know when this actually happens, rather than it being something you imagine happening.

"It hasn't happened yet because the effects of Brexit won't start for farmers until harvest time when they traditionally rely on immigrant workers from the EU, therefore it's just project feat propaganda." Gotcha.

But ok, let's worry about the famers when the time comes. Let's go back to those fishermen you said were going to get a big leg up from Brexit. Here's some who are getting a kick in the nuts instead - 50 workers laid off by one employer and exports at 30% of what they were last year. Or maybe they're just imagining all of that. Project Fear!

https://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/new...lowing-brexit/

[Poopadoop]

More fallout. Northern Ireland seeing riots.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/07/e...hnk/index.html

[OngBonga]

but they can also take what they've saved and go back home where it's worth a lot more

How much do you think a Pole can save on minimum wage when they have British living costs to pay? My guess is approximately enough to pay for their travel back home, their living costs in Poland over winter, and return fare for spring. Seems like fun. I could actually understand that if their winter was mild and ours was brutal, but the reverse is true. To put it simply, it makes much more sense to stay here and claim benefits if they fail to find winter work.

I personally think it's irrelevant what they do because either way they won't be coming this year because of Brexit.

Well, any that go home for winter will have problems, sure. But those who are already settled here won't. Do you have any statistics that indicate how many Poles only come to the UK for seasonal work and return home for winter? I think it's a ludicrously low percentage.

More fallout. Northern Ireland seeing riots.

Fun fact - Northern Ireland has seen riots while we were a member state of the EU.

I saw someone on Twitter saying that Brexit voters are responsible for what's happening in NI. What was really fucking funny was that this woman had a Scotland flag and #SNP in her bio. So I asked her if Scotland leave the UK, and unionists cause trouble, is that her fault? She blocked me.

What's happening in NI has been brewing for a long, long time. Brexit is a factor, but it's not the cause. British colonialism in Ireland is the cause.

[Poopadoop]

Fun fact - Northern Ireland has seen riots while we were a member state of the EU.

Yup, but not for a long time.

And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that it's kicking off again now at the same time that they're getting the rawest end of the Brexit deal.

I saw someone on Twitter saying that Brexit voters are responsible for what's happening in NI. What was really fucking funny was that this woman had a Scotland flag and #SNP in her bio. So I asked her if Scotland leave the UK, and unionists cause trouble, is that her fault? She blocked me.

Congrats on finding someone stupid on twitter and trolling them. It must be very fulfilling.

What's happening in NI has been brewing for a long, long time. Brexit is a factor, but it's not the cause. British colonialism in Ireland is the cause.

The Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998 and effectively ended what was about 30 years of violence. Suddenly 23 years after that it's starting up again and you want to blame British colonialism. Sorry, but did they try to recolonise the rest of Ireland this year? I must have missed that.

[OngBonga]

And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that it's kicking off again now at the same time that they're getting the rawest end of the Brexit deal.

It's not a coincidence. It's a mixture of genuine dissatisfaction with Brexit and opportunism. These people, for the most part, care more about Irish unification than they do about being in the EU.

edit - My mistake, they care more about being in the UK. It's loyalists kicking off, they're pissed because NI is being treated differently to the rest of the UK when it comes to Brexit. So... ancestors of colonists throwing petrol bombs at busses because they consider themselves British, not Irish, and don't wish to see trade restrictions between NI and the rest of the UK. These are the people who would prefer to see a hard border in Ireland.

If Ireland reunified, these are the very people who would be causing problems.

Congrats on finding someone stupid on twitter and trolling them. It must be very fulfilling.

Very much so. What else am I going to do with my day?

[OngBonga]

Heh

100,000 Hong Kong Chinese set to move to UK
That's going to boil some piss.
Hard working, avoid benefits, independent, entrepreneurial, don't vote Labour, integrate, seek wealth not victimhood.
Watch the Left despise them.

[OngBonga]

On a roll...

I doubt very much that Hong Kong Chinese are offended by cartoons.

[Poopadoop]

It's not a coincidence. It's a mixture of genuine dissatisfaction with Brexit and opportunism. These people, for the most part, care more about Irish unification than they do about being in the EU.

edit - My mistake, they care more about being in the UK. It's loyalists kicking off, they're pissed because NI is being treated differently to the rest of the UK when it comes to Brexit.

...which was because the choice was between a border in the Irish Sea which economically put NI in the EU, and a hard border on NI/IRE that would break the GFA and make us an international pariah, at the same time pissing the other side off so they would be the ones rioting instead.

If Ireland reunified, these are the very people who would be causing problems.

Good thing nothing has been done that would encourage re-unification then.

[Poopadoop]

I think we should be promoting immigration now with our aging demographics and the exodus of EU workers that has happened due to Brexit. But it should be more like a 1m than 100k. I don't care where they're from really, but poorer would be better since those are the jobs that will need filling. If only we were part of some organisation that allowed free movement of people between borders...

And for the record, EU citizens were net contributors to the economy. I know the right-wing loonies that you're a fan of listening to like to push the narrative that they were all here soaking up benefits, but it just isn't true and never was.

[OngBonga]

Good thing nothing has been done that would encourage re-unification then.

There are a lot of people who think it will happen in our lifetimes. Brexit only complicates this issue further. Scotland leaving the UK and joining the EU would cause very similar problems.

I think we should be promoting immigration now with our aging demographics and the exodus of EU workers that has happened due to Brexit. But it should be more like a 1m than 100k.

I think we should be seeking to retain a population balance. If the population is increasing too fast, infrastructure struggles to keep up, which has negative effects on the standard of living for everyone. The obvious examples are schools and hospitals failing to satisfy demand.

idk if we can absorb 1m migrants. If we can, then fine.

I don't care where they're from really, but poorer would be better since those are the jobs that will need filling

The jobs that need filling are things like fruit picking, as we've been discussing. Anyone can do this. Poverty is apparently around 20% in HK, there are lots of poor people there by our standards. They're not all investment bankers, that was why we were talking about artists. If a migrant comes here with no useful qualifications, it doesn't matter if they're Polish, Hongkongese, whatever. They'll take what jobs they can.

If only we were part of some organisation that allowed free movement of people between borders...

If only there was a way we could have such a thing without political and economic integration.

And for the record, EU citizens were net contributors to the economy.

I don't doubt it for as minute. EU citizens are ideal migrants. I've never argued otherwise.

I know the right-wing loonies that you're a fan of listening to...

Do elaborate on this. Who do you think I "listen" to? What right-wing loons do you think are my heroes? This is a curious comment of yours. I don't think I've ever cited right-wing loonies on this forum. I've cited Craig Murray a lot, not economically but regarding the EU certainly. He's a socialist. I don't gravitate towards "right wing loons". The most right wing guy I regularly watch or read is probably Mahyar Tousi, and he's an Iranian immigrant!

[Poopadoop]

Scotland leaving the UK and joining the EU would cause very similar problems.

Good thing we haven't done anything to encourage Scottish independence then.

I think we should be seeking to retain a population balance. If the population is increasing too fast, infrastructure struggles to keep up, which has negative effects on the standard of living for everyone. The obvious examples are schools and hospitals failing to satisfy demand.

idk if we can absorb 1m migrants. If we can, then fine.

We just lost 700k immigrants in London alone lol. I think we can find the space for 1m in the whole country.

The jobs that need filling are things like fruit picking, as we've been discussing.

There's also shortages of tradesmen, like electricians and builders. Doctors, nurses, etc.. And people to do all the menial cleaning jobs. So plenty of benefits from a targeted immigration plan.

If only there was a way we could have such a thing without political and economic integration.

If only we had a population who wasn't jerking off on the flag so hard they could deal with those minor downsides.

Do elaborate on this. Who do you think I "listen" to? What right-wing loons do you think are my heroes?

Would you like me to find out who wrote that tweet you cited above?

I don't know who you listen to, but you seem to cite a lot of right-wing talking points ITT at least. "Taking back control, fishermen need our help, the German auto industry will never let us leave without a deal, immigrants are all sitting here using up benefits."

[OngBonga]

Good thing we haven't done anything to encourage Scottish independence then.

If it's what they want... and I wouldn't blame them. Brexit isn't the problem with Scotland, British policy is, and was even when we were in the EU.

We just lost 700k immigrants in London alone lol. I think we can find the space for 1m in the whole country.

London has been bursting at the seams for many years. It's good that 700k less people are living there, if this figure is accurate.

There's also shortages of tradesmen, like electricians and builders. Doctors, nurses, etc.. And people to do all the menial cleaning jobs. So plenty of benefits from a targeted immigration plan.

Great. More skilled people. This is more like it for the better educated Hongkongers.

If only we had a population who wasn't jerking off on the flag so hard they could deal with those minor downsides.

lol are you one of these people on Twitter with an EU flag in your bio using the #flagshaggers hashtag?

Would you like me to find out who wrote that tweet you cited above?

I can tell you. Old Holborn. He'll happily rip piss into left or right wing folk. He's a political satirist.

Taking back control

This isn't right wing, it's nationalist. And nationalism isn't necessarily right wing. See Scotland.

fishermen need our help,

How is this right wing?

the German auto industry will never let us leave without a deal

You're just making things up now.

immigrants are all sitting here using up benefits."

I haven't said this. Some immigrants do, most don't. I've said I would prefer immigrants who didn't do this.

[Poopadoop]

Andrew Neil (right-wing media pundit in the UK, for you non-MEGAs) has just declared "gammon" a racist term. lol, what a snowflake.

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1380211263481991170

[Poopadoop]

lol are you one of these people on Twitter with an EU flag in your bio using the #flagshaggers hashtag?

No, and don't be a knob. I think blind loyalty to a political entity is pretty dumb, that's why i said what i did.

Everything else you wrote is just unicorn talk.

[Poopadoop]

I do get a kick out of the idea that you think the problems in NI and Scotland were already there and that Brexit is just a minor contributor to them, rather than pouring gasoline on a fire.

[OngBonga]

Andrew Neil (right-wing media pundit in the UK, for you non-MEGAs) has just declared "gammon" a racist term. lol, what a snowflake.

https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1380211263481991170

Why don't you think "gammon" is racist? Do you have different standards for racism when it's against white people?

Let's assume black people turn purple when they're angry. Is it ok to call an angry black man "plum" or maybe "eggplant"? Not all black people, just those you disagree with politically.

The word "gammon" is a reference to skin colour. It's racist. Do you think people who call out racism are snowflakes?

I do get a kick out of the idea that you think the problems in NI and Scotland were already there and that Brexit is just a minor contributor to them, rather than pouring gasoline on a fire.

You do realise that the Scottish referendum happened before Brexit, right? And you do realise that the trouble we're seeing in NI is, at least not yet, nowhere near as bad as Thatcher's days, right? These problems have been lingering for a long time. Brexit is obviously an important factor in what's happening right now, not "minor", but it's most certainly not the root cause. If our policy changed, regardless of Brexit, this would go a long way to solving many of the problems. If Brexit was literally the only problem, there would not be petrol bombs.

[OngBonga]

No, and don't be a knob. I think blind loyalty to a political entity is pretty dumb, that's why i said what i did.

Flagshaggers aren't loyal to a political entity. A nation is not a political entity. It's an ethnic or cultural identity.

[Poopadoop]

Why don't you think "gammon" is racist? Do you have different standards for racism when it's against white people?

Let's assume black people turn purple when they're angry. Is it ok to call an angry black man "plum" or maybe "eggplant"? Not all black people, just those you disagree with politically.

The word "gammon" is a reference to skin colour. It's racist. Do you think people who call out racism are snowflakes?

White people calling other white people names? How is that racist? I guess you have a point you wouldn't call a black person a gammon, but it's like black people calling each other the n-word, and then Jessie Lee Peterson calling them racists. Does not compute.

Brexit is obviously an important factor in what's happening right now

That's exactly what I said at the beginning. You then tried to argue it wasn't just Brexit and my response is ldo I never said that it was just Brexit.

[Poopadoop]

Flagshaggers aren't loyal to a political entity. A nation is not a political entity. It's an ethnic or cultural identity. A nation is not a political entity.

You're absolutely correct. And therefore saying I have an EU flag on my twitter account with #flagshagger is a perfectly valid argument too. You got me.

[Poopadoop]

You're right about some people on twitter being pretty funny though.

https://twitter.com/willireallyam1/s...51163635187715

[Poopadoop]

What ever happened with Oskar and his Brexit bicycle? Is it still in customs somewhere?

[OngBonga]

but it's like black people calling each other the n-word,

Yeah. So if it's not racist for black people to say the n word, does that mean the n word isn't racist?

White people who use this term are too stupid to understand it's racist. They think it isn't because it doesn't apply to them, it's a political slur rather than a racist slur. But it's based on skin colour, an angry white person flushed in the face goes gammon coloured. It only applies to white people. I'm perfectly happy that this qualifies as racism. Is it as bad as racism towards black people? No I don't think it is. But that doesn't make it acceptable. If you oppose racism, you should avoid using this slur, otherwise you are a hypocrite.

[OngBonga]

That's exactly what I said at the beginning. You then tried to argue it wasn't just Brexit and my response is ldo I never said that it was just Brexit.

Ok. But don't be too fooled. People are using Brexit as an excuse to resume hostilities. It's not like these people want either in or out, they want to maintain the integrity of the British State. Brexit isn't the motivation. Unionism is. If the Northern Irish voted to reunify with the rest of Ireland, these people would kick off. Would that make it a mistake for the people of Norther Ireland to reunify? It's not fair to use these riots to make Brexit voters feel guilty.

[Poopadoop]

Yeah. So if it's not racist for black people to say the n word, does that mean the n word isn't racist?

That's not the question I asked you. If it's said by one black person to another, is it racist. Yes or no?

White people who use this term are too stupid to understand it's racist.

We haven't established it is racist. If it were racist for one white person to call another a gammon, then black people calling each other the n-word must be racist too.

They think it isn't because it doesn't apply to them, it's a political slur rather than a racist slur.

I think you're making my argument for me here.

Have you ever heard of the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin?" Uncle Tom was a character in a book written in the 1800s who was very servile towards whites. Black people picked it up in the 60s to use to insult each other. A black man calling another black man an Uncle Tom implied that he kissed up to white people. Was that being racist too?

It only applies to white people. I'm perfectly happy that this qualifies as racism.

Uncle Tom only applies to black people. Same for the n-word. Uncle Tom was only ever used by black people. You therefore must hold that any black person using it was being racist against their own race.

You know who used the insult "Uncle Tom" a lot? Malcolm X. Also Muhammad Ali. Would you argue they were racist against blacks because they used that term? Pretty sure that both of them were widely considered as champions of black people. Or were Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali anti-black because they used a word that had a derogatory meaning towards certain people of their own race?

If you oppose racism, you should avoid using this slur, otherwise you are a hypocrite.

I don't use racial slurs, but you just said it was a political slur, not a racist one. If one white person calls another a gammon, that's between them, and has nothing to do with the caller being racist. If a black person called a white person a gammon, then yes that could be seen as racist. But that's now how the word typically gets used.


The most bemusing part of this whole thing is that they're not objecting to being called an angry ignoramus, they're bitching that it's racist so people who are also white will stop a using a word to depict them as an angry ignoramus.

[OngBonga]

That's not the question I asked you. If it's said by one black person to another, is it racist. Yes or no?

Frankly I don't know. It's a racist word but it's not a person of one race insulting a person of another race. I'd probably say no it's not, there's no question of racial superiority or discrimination. But it's contentious.

We haven't established it is racist. If it were racist for one white person to call another a gammon, then black people calling each other the n-word must be racist too.

Even if I accept a white person saying doesn't have racist intent, that doesn't mean the word isn't racist. I think it's inappropriate for black people to call each other nigga, but I don't think it's racist. There's a difference here though... it's a term of endearment between black people. If we have an example of a black person using the word against another black person to cause shock or distress, then yes that's racism.

I don't think there are simple answers here. Context is important.

I think you're making my argument for me here.

It depends if your argument is it's not racist, or it's just not as bad as other examples of racism. I don't agree with the former, but I do agree with the latter.

Have you ever heard of the book "Uncle Tom's Cabin?"

No. And no I don't think this is racism. It's not a direct reference to skin colour. That's the only reason I find "gammon" racist. Not just because it's only used against white people, but because it refers to skin colour.

Uncle Tom only applies to black people. Same for the n-word. Uncle Tom was only ever used by black people. You therefore must hold that any black person using it was being racist against their own race.

See above. You're misrepresenting my argument.

I don't use racial slurs, but you just said it was a political slur, not a racist one.

I'm acknowledging there's a distinction between slurs used generally against people of a race or ethnicity, and slurs used against people of a political persuasion. It's political because it's reserved for conservatives, but it's still a reference to the skin colour of the people it insults.

The most bemusing part of this whole thing is that they're not objecting to being called an angry ignoramus, they're bitching that it's racist so people who are also white will stop a using a word to depict them as an angry ignoramus.

I think it's a stupid word to use because the people who use it also have a tendency to accuse the people they use it against of being racist. That's pretty amusing to me.

People who get offended by insults like "ignoramus" are snowflakes. But if you're insulted because of your skin colour, you have every right to point out this is unacceptable. It's not a term of endearment like nigga, is it? It's an insult. Insults based on skin colour should not be acceptable, regardless of whether it's black on black, white on white, whatever. Find better insults.

[Poopadoop]

It's political because it's reserved for conservatives, but it's still a reference to the skin colour of the people it insults.

But it's not insulting that person for being white, it's insulting them for being an angry ignoramus who's getting flushed in the cheek.

What if there was a black Brit who acted like that. Could you not also call them a gammon? I think you could.

the people who use it also have a tendency to accuse the people they use it against of being racist. That's pretty amusing to me.

They often are racist, but unlike the person using the word "gammon" to describe a person of their own race who is obnoxious, the gammon actually is racist towards other racees. See the difference?

if you're insulted because of your skin colour, you have every right to point out this is unacceptable.

The insult is because their skin is pink from being angry and/or drunk. That's not the normal state for a white person's skin. So while it's a crude insult to use, it's not racist.

Find better insults.

lol. So Uncle Tom is a perfectly acceptable insult for one black person to level at another because it only refers to a single fictional black man, but gammon isn't ok for whites to use against other whites because a gammon is pink. Seriously, lol.

[Poopadoop]

Ong, don't eat too much fish, the British cheese industry needs you too!

https://twitter.com/1CheshireCheese/...13999408254987

[Poopadoop]

Seems "gammon" has been around for a long time, and has always meant the same thing.

[OngBonga]

But it's not insulting that person for being white, it's insulting them for being an angry ignoramus who's getting flushed in the cheek.

Indeed, which is why I don't think it's as bad as slurs which are purely racially motivated. But let's go back to my original example... if black people turn purple when they're angry, is it ok to call them eggplant?

What if there was a black Brit who acted like that. Could you not also call them a gammon? I think you could.

Well you could, just like you could call a white person the n word, but it doesn't make much sense.

The insult is because their skin is pink from being angry and/or drunk. That's not the normal state for a white person's skin. So while it's a crude insult to use, it's not racist.

Ok eggplant.

lol. So Uncle Tom is a perfectly acceptable insult for one black person to level at another because it only refers to a single fictional black man

Why are you deliberately misrepresenting me? That isn't what I'm saying at all.

Is "Uncle Tom" a colour? Yes it's because gammon is pink. The point is that you can't call a black person gammon, not in a serious sense, because black people don't turn pink when they're angry. It's a direct reference to skin colour. It's pretty simple really.

It's really mild racism, but it's racism.

Ong, don't eat too much fish, the British cheese industry needs you too!

I eat lots of cheese. And cheddar is, if we get our act together, a key food export for the UK. People around the world definitely want our cheese. Leaving the EU isn't the problem here, making it difficult to sell to other markets is the problem. There's no reason why Canada should be subject to excessive tariffs.

Seems "gammon" has been around for a long time, and has always meant the same thing.

Yeah, I know Charles Dickens coined the term. So let's now assume that the word "monkey" was first used as a racial slur from a black person to another black person in the 1500s. It's not racist then, right?

[OngBonga]

That guy talking about gammon is an idiot. Every time he says "gammon", replace with "darkie". Is what he's saying acceptable in that context?

[OngBonga]

Here you go poop... the guy who I quoted yesterday is posting this today...

You're just scared of needles, you absolute girls.

Today he's ripping piss into antivaxxers. He's not a right wing loonie, he just likes pushing buttons. He's a troll.

[Poopadoop]

Indeed, which is why I don't think it's as bad as slurs which are purely racially motivated. But let's go back to my original example... if black people turn purple when they're angry, is it ok to call them eggplant?

If it's another black person who says it? Yes I would find it funny.

Are you saying it would be racist in that context? Because that's the key here: If it's a person of the same colour leveling the insult, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone - gammon, eggplant, or whatever - that it's racially motivated.

Is "Uncle Tom" a colour?

Yes ffs. He was a black character in a book. Are you going to suggest there's no racial connotation to the term Uncle Tom?

It's really mild racism, but it's racism.

Then so is Uncle Tom. And, since people like Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali used it, ergo, you must believe those black men were racist against black people.

Yeah, I know Charles Dickens coined the term. So let's now assume that the word "monkey" was first used as a racial slur from a black person to another black person in the 1500s. It's not racist then, right?

You're still extremely conveniently ignoring that the person doing the name-calling is the same colour as the person they are insulting. How in the fucking universe can that be racist? Are white people calling angry ignoramuses gammons racist against all white people? No, they just don't like angry ignoramuses. It's not a racial insult, it's an insult based on their behaviour. If it were a racial insult, they'd not be levelling it at people who are the same race as they are.

That guy talking about gammon is an idiot. Every time he says "gammon", replace with "darkie". Is what he's saying acceptable in that context?

lol, make it a different word and it's racist, sure.

If you want to do the analogy properly, turn him into a black man, have him refer to a group of angry ignorant black men, and have him using the word "eggplant". How upset are you now, snowflake?

[Poopadoop]

Leaving the EU isn't the problem here, making it difficult to sell to other markets is the problem.

It's exactly the problem. What do you suppose made it more difficult to sell cheese to other markets? Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that we had a trade deal with most of those other markets when we were in the EU, and now that's gone? I'll give you a hint: the answer is yes.

Stock up on your cheese.

[OngBonga]

Are you saying it would be racist in that context? Because that's the key here: If it's a person of the same colour leveling the insult, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone - gammon, eggplant, or whatever - that it's racially motivated.

Sure. I mean you're assuming you can only say something racist if you have racist motivation. That isn't true. I've complained in the past that the bar for racism is far too low, but here we are now setting the bar too high.

Yes ffs. He was a black character in a book. Are you going to suggest there's no racial connotation to the term Uncle Tom?

I feel like you're deliberately missing the point to troll me. Uncle Tom was specifically someone who was servient to white people. It's not a colour, or a reference to a colour, it's a reference to a fictional individual.

I know you don't think the Uncle Tom reference is racist. So you're simply trying to say that this reference is comparable to "gammon". It's not.

Then so is Uncle Tom. And, since people like Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali used it, ergo, you must believe those black men were racist against black people.

No.

If I call you Tommy Robinson because you're a racist twat, I'm not being racist, even though Tommy Robinson is white. This is basically what you're arguing with the Uncle Tom thing. I wouldn't call a racist black person Tommy Robinson, it makes no sense. Well, I might call someone a black Tommy Robinson, but then again I could call someone a white Uncle Tom, if indeed they were servient to black oppressors. That wouldn't be racist either.

The reference is to a person, not a colour. Stop pretending that you can't see that.

You're still extremely conveniently ignoring that the person doing the name-calling is the same colour as the person they are insulting.

I haven't ignored that. I addressed it. Here...

If we have an example of a black person using the word against another black person to cause shock or distress, then yes that's racism.

How in the fucking universe can that be racist?

Let's look at this from a different angle. If I am an employer, as a male, and choose to employ only women, am I discriminating against men? Of course I am. Men can be sexist to other men. And yes it's possible for black people to be racist to other black people. An example would be a black person calling another black person by the n-word purely to upset that person. That is racism. Or a black employer deciding that he doesn't want to employ other black people because, idk, he thinks Africans have a lower IQ than white people (and that perhaps he's an exception).

Are white people calling angry ignoramuses gammons racist against all white people?

Sure. I'm pretty sure if I get angry enough, I'll turn gammon coloured. So even if the insult isn't directed at me, even if the insult was used by a white person, it's still a reference to skin colour that applies to all white people. This is why I think white people using this term are stupid.

No, they just don't like angry ignoramuses.

Great. So if I don't like angry black people, I can call them eggplant, and that's not offensive to non-angry black people. Right? You seem to be ignoring this counterpoint.

It's not a racial insult, it's an insult based on their behaviour.

I agree, which is why I don't consider this to be serious racism. But it's still racism, it's still a reference to the colour of someone's skin.

If you want to do the analogy properly, turn him into a black man, have him refer to a group of angry ignorant black men, and have him using the word "eggplant". How upset are you now, snowflake?

If black people did turn purple when angry, then the term "eggplant" would be precisely as racist as "gammon" ie a little bit racist.

Don't be fooled into thinking this upsets me. I don't give a fuck if people want to throw the term about. I'm just calling it racism because that's what I believe it is.

fwiw, I'm not arguing "snowflake" is racist, even though snowflakes are white. The reason is because the term isn't intended to be a reference to the colour of white peoples' skin. You can also call a black person a snowflake.

[Poopadoop]

Ong, your arguments are ridiculous. Go stock up on your cheese, you piece of broccoli.

[Poopadoop]

lol, you can't make this shit up.

https://www.ukip.org/dr-peter-gammon...r-london-mayor

[OngBonga]

By the way, clear examples of racism from white people on other white people would be discrimination against Jews, or Roma, or people of Spanish descent. Similarly, black people can easily be racist to other black people of different ethnic origin. So the idea that you can only be racist to those of different skin colour is clearly absurd.

Of course, we're talking here, mostly, about whit English people using the word "gammon" against other white English people. That's not the same as what I just described. But it goes to show that it's not as simple as you seem to think. "Black" isn't a defined race, it's a skin colour. Different black people can be different races. Same with white.

I, as a white person, can discriminate against other white people, based purely on their colour of skin, or ethnicity, whatever. This even happens, where black people are employed for "diversity" reasons rather than merit.

This idea you can't be racist to people of your own race is nonsense.

[OngBonga]

It's exactly the problem. What do you suppose made it more difficult to sell cheese to other markets? Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that we had a trade deal with most of those other markets when we were in the EU, and now that's gone? I'll give you a hint: the answer is yes.

Stock up on your cheese.

Right. So if Scotland vote to leave the UK, and that results in problems with Scotland selling whiskey to England, the problem is they left the UK, not that the UK created an environment that resulted in Scotland deciding to leave.

[OngBonga]

Ong, your arguments are ridiculous. Go stock up on your cheese, you piece of broccoli.

You're Canadian, right? European descent, or Inuit? Assuming the latter, you understand how easily it would be for me to be racist to you. I could simply drop the E-word.

We're both white, right? So that would be white-on-white racism.

[Poopadoop]

Right. So if Scotland vote to leave the UK, and that results in problems with Scotland selling whiskey to England, the problem is they left the UK, not that the UK created an environment that resulted in Scotland deciding to leave.

I'm assuming part of the reason for leaving would be they'd rather sell their exports more easily to the EU with a market of 300m than to the UK with a market of 60m.

[Poopadoop]

You're Canadian, right? European descent, or Inuit? Assuming the latter, you understand how easily it would be for me to be racist to you. I could simply drop the E-word.

We're both white, right? So that would be white-on-white racism.

What, do you want to make this personal, you bowl of strawberry ice cream?

I didn't say it's impossible to be against your own race if you're some self-loathing person. I'm saying calling an angry ignoramus a piece of ham is not an instance of that.

[OngBonga]

I'm assuming part of the reason for leaving would be they'd rather sell their exports more easily to the EU with a market of 300m than to the UK with a market of 60m.

That assumes they walk into the EU the day after independence. If they leave the UK, they will face a period of economic difficulties. I assume you'll be quick to tell them they made a mistake?

I didn't say it's impossible to be against your own race if you're some self-loathing person. I'm saying calling an angry ignoramus a piece of ham is not an instance of that.

I'll grant these examples are not the same. But it can certainly be possible for people to be racist to their own kind.

Tell me more about Uncle Tom. Is he like the character in Django Unchained played by Samuel L Jackson? Tell me you've seen that film. He's an "Uncle Tom". That character was racist as fuck to the point of funny as fuck.

[Poopadoop]

That assumes they walk into the EU the day after independence. If they leave the UK, they will face a period of economic difficulties. I assume you'll be quick to tell them they made a mistake?

I wouldn't pretend that everything is sunlit uplands and ignore any problems that might arise, if that's what you mean. But I don't live there so I'm less interested in how it affects them than in how Brexit affects me.

And let's say it takes them up to three years to rejoin the EU (which seems long, but w/e). That will be three years of economic hardship in return for a presumably much longer period of economic benefit. That's different from our case, where there is only hardship to be had. We are not going to get a better trading situation outside of the EU than we had in it, ever. That's not just me saying it, it's an economic fact.

Tell me more about Uncle Tom.

I told you pretty much everything I know. It was an anti-slavery book written in 1830s that helped polarise American opinions about slavery. The main character was a slave who was very submissive to his masters. Later the name was used to insult black people who wouldn't stand up to whites.

[OngBonga]

That's different from our case, where there is only hardship to be had.

This is open to debate.

We are not going to get a better trading situation outside of the EU than we had in it, ever. That's not just me saying it, it's an economic fact.

If we have a free trade agreement with just the USA, that nearly accounts for the entire EU in terms of population. So no, this isn't a fact. The rest of the world is bigger than the EU. What we do with the rest of the world is another matter. But you seem to be implying here it's impossible for us to agree trade deals with a larger group of nations than the EU, which is absurd.

I told you pretty much everything I know.

Ok. The description you gave caused me to immediately think of Samuel L Jackson in Django Unchained. He's a black butler in the Deep South during slavery times who despises black people, or at least pretends to in order to appease his employers. His racism is funny, because it's Samuel L Jackson. I can only imagine Tarantino, or Jackson himself, had Uncle Tom in mind when developing this character.

[Poopadoop]

This is open to debate.

Not amongst economists, only amongst unicorn salesmen.

If we have a free trade agreement with just the USA, that nearly accounts for the entire EU in terms of population.

That's not how trade works.

1. Your best market is, caveat emptor, your closest market. That keeps shipping costs down, which in turn keeps prices down, which in turn keeps demand high. It also reduces spoilage, which is a crucial factor when you're talking about perishables like food. We won't be selling our shellfish to the US no matter what kind of deal we get, for example, because it's impossible to deliver them there before they spoil (or if not impossible, prohibitively expensive).

There's a reason why trading blocs and free trade arrangements tend to arise amongst geographical neighbors. It's because that's who you trade the most with and so with whom free trade arrangements and free migration of labour bring the greatest reciprocal benefit. There is the EU, there is NAFTA in N. America, there is Mercosur in S. America, there will likely be a TTP in Asia soon.


2. A free trade arrangement with the US is politically unlikely to happen any time soon anyways.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-shifts-focus

But you seem to be implying here it's impossible for us to agree trade deals with a larger group of nations than the EU,

No, I'm implying that when you leave a bloc with which you did 47% of your trade, having separate free trade with the rest of world all at once to get 48/53% of them to those markets is highly implausible. This is even assuming you can teleport your goods to those other markets for free on a magic unicorn.

[OngBonga]

We won't be selling our shellfish to the US

We already sell shellfish to China, which is further. I guess they either freeze it, or ship it live. And we sell a lot of salmon to USA. They find ways. It's profitable for us, otherwise we wouldn't do it. £200m in salmon to USA alone. Of course, if Scotland leaves the UK, that's mostly their piece of the pie, not ours, but total salmon exports are under a billion, and it's not all Scottish. I digress. We can ship fresh food to USA, China, anywhere on Earth, as evidenced by the fact we already manage to do this, and evidenced by the fact we import fresh food from South America. These markets aren't new to us.

2. A free trade arrangement with the US is politically unlikely to happen any time soon anyways.

Perhaps, but USA was just one example. China, India, Brazil, these are also huge markets we could potentially tap into.

I mean, none of this really matters. Economic dependency is no reason to cede sovereignty. It's like you're happy to be economically trapped in a superstate. I'm not.

[Poopadoop]

We already sell shellfish to China, which is further. I guess they either freeze it, or ship it live. And we sell a lot of salmon to USA. They find ways. It's profitable for us, otherwise we wouldn't do it. £200m in salmon to USA alone.

I meant we won't be exporting it in the same volume that we did to the EU.

Perhaps, but USA was just one example. China, India, Brazil, these are also huge markets we could potentially tap into.

We had those markets as a member of the EU. Brazil is in Mercosur, which I'm telling you now for the umpteenth time, so any deal has to go through them.

More importantly, it's like you think we somehow have greater negotiating power as a market of 60m than we did in the EU as a market of 300m. Between us and the EU, who do you think those powers would rather swing a trade deal with?

Economic dependency is no reason to cede sovereignty. It's like you're happy to be economically trapped in a superstate. I'm not.

I don't consider the benefits of being in the world's largest trading bloc make a country "economically trapped", and our economic performance in the coming years will support that we were winning, not losing, as a result of being in the EU, according to all experts. Even JR Mogg says it will be 50 years before we see the benefits of Brexit. 50 fucking years!! And he's a Brexiter!

I also still don't know what you're talking about when you say superstate. Apart from trade, how did the EU govern you? Give me some examples please.

[OngBonga]

I meant we won't be exporting it in the same volume that we did to the EU.

You can't know the future any more than I can. You argued it was impossible or prohibitively expensive, and I countered that's clearly not the case because we already ship to places like China. Now you're shifting the goalposts and saying we just won't export as much. That depends on things neither of us can know.

Between us and the EU, who do you think those powers would rather swing a trade deal with?

Whichever has the lowest tariffs and less red tape.

I don't consider the benefits of being in the world's largest trading bloc make a country "economically trapped.

Yes you do, you just don't realise it. If you're arguing that leaving the EU is so bad for the economy that we shouldn't do it, then you're arguing we're economically trapped. You're just choosing to use different language, such as "benefits".

Even JR Mogg says it will be 50 years before we see the benefits of Brexit. 50 fucking years!! And he's a Brexiter!

We're already seeing the benefits of Brexit. One, we're no longer a member of a superstate, unless you consider the UK itself a superstate. And two, vaccines. We timed our exit to perfection, it seems.

I also still don't know what you're talking about when you say superstate. Apart from trade, how did the EU govern you? Give me some examples please.

Govern me directly? They don't. They govern me, well they did govern me, economically. My country was unable to negotiate trade deals as a sovereign nation.

A superstate is a large body of smaller nations. USA could be argued to be a superstate, the Soviet Union was a superstate, Yugoslavia was a superstate. The EU is a superstate because it is a political union as well as an economic union. It's not just a trading bloc.

[Poopadoop]

We always had the option to carve our own paths with the vaccines. There's no law in the EU that says when a country can or can't give a vaccine.

[Poopadoop]

Yes you do, you just don't realise it. If you're arguing that leaving the EU is so bad for the economy that we shouldn't do it, then you're arguing we're economically trapped. You're just choosing to use different language, such as "benefits".

You're right. We were trapped in a great deal.

[CoccoBill]

"Oh crap, we don't need to pay anything to export stuff, and where's all the paperwork I enjoy? Someone tax me more! And also tax all that incoming stuff, I got way too much money already!"

[Poopadoop]

Whichever has the lowest tariffs and less red tape.

But you have negotiate to get those things. And if your choice is between negotiating a deal with a market of 60m and a deal with a market of 300m, well do the math.

@ bolded. We just voted for more red tape voluntarily. Doesn't make us look like a great trading partner does it.

[OngBonga]

And if your choice is between negotiating a deal with a market of 60m and a deal with a market of 300m, well do the math.

This is a little simplistic. I mean, would you rather have the EU as a market, or USA? EU has something like 20% more people, however, that includes a lot of relatively poor people like Romanians, Polish, etc. I would have thought (citation needed) that the net spending power of USA consumers is higher than the net spending power of the EU.

Of course, if we talk about China, India and Brazil, this point is completely irrelevant. EU is much richer than these countries. But you can't just point to population as though that's all that matters. How much these people spend on imports is very important.

@ bolded. We just voted for more red tape voluntarily. Doesn't make us look like a great trading partner does it.

We didn't vote for more red tape. This shouldn't be the case. If it is, we're doing something very wrong. The EU is notoriously bureaucratic, understanding and abiding by EU regulations requires significant time and investment for companies that want to trade with EU partners. More so now, which isn't a surprise when it comes to the EU because we still have to deal with their red tape , as well as ours, but when it comes to non-EU markets, it really shouldn't be worse than it was. Less regulations, which comes down to the details of the trade agreements. USA in particular should be in favour of less regulations, with them being highly capitalist.

[Poopadoop]

"Oh crap, we don't need to pay anything to export stuff, and where's all the paperwork I enjoy? Someone tax me more! And also tax all that incoming stuff, I got way too much money already!"

Don't forget to ask for a customs border inside your own country too.

[OngBonga]

I did a space comma.

Anyone sub to Conspiracy Catz on youtube? He's a flat earth debunker who rips piss into the comments on youtube from flatties, and "space comma" became a huge thing, a remarkable consistency in the various retard comments.