*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

[OngBonga]

I really don't know how anyone could see a similarity between the UK and the EU, beyond the word "union". One is a four-nation union that has been in some kind of union for many centuries, with all four nations sharing at least some common culture. The other is a 28 member continental superstate encompassing lots of different cultures, languages, territories, most of which have never been in union until the formation of the EEC.

The UK isn't even comparable to Yugoslavia, a much smaller superstate than the EU. Even Yugoslavia was unworkable. And even Czechoslovakia was too much for the nations involved. Throughout history, we see superstates fail. The UK isn't a superstate. It was when it was an empire, but now it's a mere country. Maybe the Scots view it differently, time will tell.

I don't have any emotional connection to the UK. See my location - England not UK. I consider myself more English than British. My British status is more formal than cultural. I'm English. That's not a choice, it's where I was born and have lived all my life. English is my nationality, if I have anything that can be considered an emotional connection it's that, and even that's tenuous because it's not like I'm a proud Englishman with a St George's Flag waving out my window. When it comes to football, I guess I am a proud Englishman... I definitely support the England football team in major tournaments, and I definitely share in the national embarrassment when our fans make fools of the nation.

I don't have a problem with England being a member of the UK because it's a logical union, at least with regards to England Scotland and Wales... one island landmass. I suppose I do have something of a moral issue with the Northern Ireland status... that's a colony, land taken from the Irish, but there's no easy solution to that one and it's not something that directly affects me so I keep my nose out of it. But the rest of the UK, so long as it's democratically acceptable to all parties, it's not a problem. If Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the union, England and Wales will remain in union, almost guaranteed. There are some nationalist Welsh who want independence, but they are very far from a democratic majority and I don't see that ever changing.

The EU for me is far more comparable to the Soviet Union than the UK. There are of course major differences... the Soviet Union was utterly dominated by Russia, with Moscow being the capital, while the EU is not dominated by one country, and odes not have one single capital, even though Germany does have more influence than any other member state. But the similarities are that both were huge unions made up from several distinct cultures, many of which have nothing in common except the fact they are in a union.

There's nothing wrong with working closely with your regional neighbours. There's nothing wrong with being friends. My problem with the EU was never the economic relationship... it was the political aspect of it. Unfortunately it proved to be the case that you couldn't have one without the other. That's a problem that Scotland are facing... is it worth being in an economic relationship with England at the cost of political integration? That's for them to decide.

I guess I don't have a problem with the UK because England dominates, which might sound selfish but it's probably more ignorance of the political problems of being a member of the UK. But I at least appreciate why Scotland has a serious decision to make, and it's why I would respect a democratic decision to leave.

[Poopadoop]

Looking forward to when all the benefits start rolling in.

https://news.sky.com/story/bp-priori...snt-sf-twitter

[Poopadoop]

Just out of curiosity, would you be opposed to relaxing immigration rules to allow EU drivers to return? 'Cause that would certainly help.

[OngBonga]

I never voted for Brexit to stop immigration. Having control of immigration is a subtle difference. Being a member state of the EU, we didn't have any choice but to accept migrants from within the EU (legal citizens of course). Now we do. I'm absolutely fine with us using that choice to accept migrants. And I'm fine with people who work here for long enough gaining citizenship. I'm also fine with us refusing to grant work VISAs to those who don't speak English. Does a lorry driver need to speak English? It definitely helps. I need to speak French if I want to work in France. I don't consider that an unreasonable expectation.

I voted for sovereignty, remember. I didn't vote to tell migrants to fuck off. Some people probably did, but that's not me, and it's not any Brexit voter I personally know.

[Poopadoop]

I wonder how many of those lorry drivers who went back to the EU spoke English well enough to do their job; I'm guessing all of them or they wouldn't have been working here in the first place.

The current immigration policy is points-based, they have to earn 70 points to be eligible. They can earn 20 of those points if they're considered to be in a shortage occupation, but it's still mandatory they have a sponsor, an English certificate, and a "job at an appropriate skill level" (whatever that means).

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-for-employers

But, rather than be sensible and declare HGV drivers a shortage occupation, the gov't is kowtowing to anti-immigration zealots amongst their supporters who did vote Brexit to stop immigration. Seems a bit retarded imo.

[OngBonga]

I'm guessing all of them or they wouldn't have been working here in the first place.

Well, nearly all, I'm not disputing this.

But, rather than be sensible and declare HGV drivers a shortage occupation, the gov't is kowtowing to anti-immigration zealots amongst their supporters who did vote Brexit to stop immigration. Seems a bit retarded imo.

Well on this we can agree. It's retarded because as best as I can tell, the vast majority of people who have any sort of problem with immigration tend to oppose Islamic immigration or uneducated migrants fleeing France by any means possible, not Polish lorry drivers who are here legally and are paying UK tax. Yes there are a small number of people who just don't like any kind of foreigner, but genuinely, this is a small demographic.

Not sure why Boris would feel the need to appease such people, it's not going to swing an election.

[Poopadoop]

Our Churchill.

https://twitter.com/adbritton/status...56055399866373

If you listen closely, you can hear the audience cringing.

[Poopadoop]

Fuel shortage. Gov't tells people not to panic buy. Naturally, everyone immediately goes to fill up their cars.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58673567

[OngBonga]

The good thing about fuel is it's not easy to stock up like bog roll. Once you've filled up, all you can do is top up, so you can't exasperate the problem after your initial fill up.

This will blow over pretty quickly.

[OngBonga]

On form today...

[Poopadoop]

The good thing about fuel is it's not easy to stock up like bog roll. Once you've filled up, all you can do is top up, so you can't exasperate the problem after your initial fill up.

This will blow over pretty quickly.

Exacerbate.

Yeah it's not like you can hoard fuel. But, if there's a) a shortage of fuel; and b) everyone fuels up sooner than they normally would, then that's not going to be a good situation.

[OngBonga]

I don't know literally every word in the English dictionary, I trusted the lack of red underline. I guess exasperated means open mouth shocked, now I think about it.

We've had fuel problems before, it's actually quite nice to have super quiet roads. And it cleans the air up a bit. I mean, we got through covid lockdowns, I suspect we'll get over this.

[OngBonga]

Did you watch that Lawrence vid? Even you might find that one amusing.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Exacerbate.

[OngBonga]

I'm not so sure Brexit is to blame for the lorry driver shortage.

For clarity, there isn't a shortage of lorry drivers in the UK, we have hundreds of thousands of them (inc' me !!), but whether we choose to drive them is another matter. Poor pay, poor conditions, over-regulation etc etc, are the issues right now.

I’m a tanker driver but because they’ve removed our overtime bonus I’m gonna sit at home all day drinking cans watching the Ryder cup.

According to the RHA only 50% of HGV drivers are active.

That and huge delays to re-activate lapsed licences or test those who've been training. The work of Remainer civil servants, helping big business put pressure on Govt to allow cheap EU drivers to keep working here, guaranteeing wages and conditions stay low?

I've had one for yrs but hardly used it, and doubt I will again, I did try it the pay and conditions were abhorrent,the cheap labour dragged the standards/wages down, now that's all gone they need to raise their game a decent hgv driver should earn the same as a spark or plumber

Got my HGV... But no way am I doing that CPC thing. Stuff that.

yup had a licence gathering dust for years. CPC nonsense put me right off and less pay than when I did it briefly in the 90s!

So basically it's not a HGV driver shortage per se, it's a labour shortage because the working conditions have got so shit that they might as well just drive a van. And those worsening working conditions are directly related to membership of the EU... cheap labour coming from poorer areas, people who spend their wages in places where the cost of living is cheaper, and are therefore earning more relative income.

You can't blame the European workers for getting what work they can, but you can blame the economic model that drives down wages.

[CoccoBill]

Without googling, exasperated is more like frustrated/agitated isn't it. My ex was 'murican and I corrected her spelling/grammar all the time, though for sure her vocabulary was wider.

[OngBonga]

I just googled it and we're both right. It means irritated. But it also means to "make worse", that is, it is a synonym of exacerbate. So my original usage of the word was fine.

The "open mouthed shocked" definition is a bit vague, but I was thinking along the lines of someone gasping out of shock, like if they were insulted. So... just about.

[The Bean Counter]

Reality is the HGV shortage is caused by a number of factors. COVID causing a shortage and backlog of tests, Brexit and COVID reducing the available labour, poor planning for Brexit that didn't address the likely immediate impact of Brexit, then throw in unattractive working conditions.

While £50k per year seems decent on face value for driving a lorry and not having a lot of stress or danger (£50k is more than 90% of the population earn), being away from home isn't great. But if your alternative is £20k then it's got to be worth considering. The real problem brewing is that the average age of a driver is 55. We needed a better plan for this five years ago.

[OngBonga]

I think £50k is a media number they like to throw around, but they're working 60+ hours a week and I still think it's the high end rather than average. But what do I know? Only what I can be arsed to read on Twitter.

Some parties are delighted with these problems. I don't think the "I told you so" crew are delighted, but those who actively want to rejoin the EU will be because it's ammunition for them. But if you scratch under the surface you see there's a lot more to it.

Seems like the Tories are going to relax their position on European HGV drivers, but that might not be the solution we all think it will be. Depends if they can earn more than in Europe, because if not, why bother? There's an EU-wide shortage of HGV drivers (same reasons... unfavourable working conditions and overregulation), so they're not going to be short of work.

[MadMojoMonkey]

...


...

What's HGV ?

[The Bean Counter]

HGV means heavy goods vehicle. £40k-£50k is the going rate.

Legal max in the UK is 90 hours over two weeks, which is rigidly enforced by logistics companies. BUT...that's the driving time. Speaking to somebody that works for DHL recently, their drivers start out at a depot from Nottingham at 4am and get to the depot in Suffolk a few hours later. They then sleep in their cabs until taking the lorry back in the evening. Not a great lifestyle, but plenty of people do it. The comparison I guess is going three months on, three months off on oil rigs or overseas infrastructure projects. They typically pay more than HGV.

[OngBonga]

Really? USA use acronyms like SUV and RV but not HGV? Oh turns out they just say LGV, large instead of heavy.

[OngBonga]

Google tells me the average salary for a HGV driver in the UK is £32,919

https://www.reed.co.uk/average-salar...-driver-salary

[OngBonga]

Google tells me the average salary for a HGV driver in the UK is £32,919

https://www.reed.co.uk/average-salar...-driver-salary

There are some jobs listed at £55k though

[OngBonga]

I was a hgv driver for 25 years and we was shat on from a great height. The Eastern Europe driver influx drove my job down from £220 per day to £80 per day. I walked away !!!Now I sit back laughing my fucking head off

Obviously these quotes are just tweets pulled up, but I don't find them any less worthy of trust then MSM articles.

Joining the EU created the problem, leaving the EU compounded it. Many people on the left have socialist views, yet when it comes to cheap labour their views are more right leaning than they care to admit. Cheap labour benefits the haulage companies, not the drivers.

[The Bean Counter]

You could argue that joining the EU created a lot of new jobs for HGV drivers. The free movement of labour ensured downward pressure on wages, which is good for making UK goods competitive. Obviously not great for drivers in the short term, but good for everybody else that works for those companies in the longer term.

What a lot of companies in the UK will now be doing is moving their production and distribution base into Europe to ease the current problems. That's not good for anybody in the UK. The company I work for saw this coming (increasing red tape, delays, tax implications) and already shifted a lot of fulfilment to mainland Europe, resulting in job losses at our distributors. But in other news, the job market in my profession is buoyant after nothing for 18 months. Really difficult to parse out what is covid downturn, covid bounceback, brexit and wider economic issues in all of this.

[The Bean Counter]

I suppose there's there's question in all of this of what's a fair wage for a lorry driver. Supply and demand obviously dictates, but being paid greater than 90% of the population seems like a bubble for relatively low skilled work. The reality at the moment though is you could advertise £150k pw for drivers once they get their licence and it wouldn't matter - they just can't get tested quickly enough.

[Poopadoop]

Yeah, I'm a socialist but that doesn't mean I think a HGV driver should make more than I do after I went to university for 8 years while living on a pittance, and they trained for a few months and passed the "driving a big truck backwards" test. It's good that their wages will go up, because it's a shitty job. But that increase is not exactly a "Brexit benefit" the way the gov't is spinning it because the ones who end up paying for those higher wages are the consumers. Inflation is forecast to hit 4% next year and a lot of people aren't getting raises because of covid.

The real problem is that the shortage is greater here than anywhere, and that is only because of Brexit and all the EU drivers that fucked off and didnt come back. So yah the wages will have to go up and/or the gov't will have to do other things. They've just announced they made HGV drivers essential workers for the purposes of immigration, which might have some positive benefit. Whatever, things can't go on the way they are now because the reserves of everything are eventually going to run out and then we'll really be fucked.

[Poopadoop]

What a lot of companies in the UK will now be doing is moving their production and distribution base into Europe to ease the current problems.

Not all businesses have that option of course. The uni I work at is finding it hard to recruit enough students to make up for the ones who won't come from the EU anymore because of the hassle, so it's cutting some departments (not mine, thankfully, at least not yet).

[Poopadoop]

This is how they attract workers.

https://twitter.com/MichaelLamberta/...13174798704641

Actually, not sure if that's real of not, but this is:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58694004

[Poopadoop]

Every petrol station near where I live out of fuel. Am seriously considering switching to a hybrid electric/sovereignty.

[CoccoBill]

Hybrids are pointless. Fully EV = +EV.

[Poopadoop]

Hybrids make sense if you're somewhere where electric charging points aren't common, but sovereignty is everywhere.

[Poopadoop]

https://orynski.eu/20-reasons-why-th...ers-in-the-uk/

[OngBonga]

People thinking that electric means the end of panic queueing is quite funny. Fun fact - it takes a lot longer to charge a car than fill it with petrol. There's also far more petrol pumps that electric charging points.

Obviously you'll be fine if you can charge your car up from home... providing China doesn't turn off our nuclear power plants.

[Poopadoop]

Fun fact - it takes a lot longer to charge a car than fill it with petrol.

Fun fact - most people have a source of electric fuel in their homes they can plug their car into overnight, what they don't have it is a petrol pump.

[OngBonga]

Sure everyone has plugs, how many people park on public roads though since they don't have private parking?

If you don't have that problem, you're good.

[Poopadoop]

Extension cords exist. Unless you're parking more than 30 ft away from your house you can probably manage it.

Not saying it wouldn't be a huge pain and I wouldn't run out to buy electric if that was the situation I was in, but in the current circumstances I'd prefer to do that than drive around looking for a petrol station that actually had fuel.

[Poopadoop]

The best part of this is the 33% of people who think the HGV driver shortage is the fault of the previous Labour gov't.

Labour was last in power 11 years ago, in 2010. That is one hell of a delayed effect.

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/s...11962055413762

[MadMojoMonkey]

I thought you needed a special outlet installed to charge electric cars. Like, they don't just plug into the standard mains outlet, you need a special outlet installed - presumably to handle higher voltages and/or currents than your standard wall outlet.

Granted, if you've purchased something that costs thousands of dollars, then the additional cost of hundreds to greatly enhance the utility of that big purchase seems like a no-brainer to me.

[OngBonga]

Extension cords exist.

You can't seriously think it will be ok to have extension cables running from houses to cars parked on the road? You might get away with it if you live on a quiet road and park right outside your house, but it will still be frowned upon, probably by curtain twitchers and traffic wardens. It'll be a tripping hazard for pedestrians.

mojo, I don't think it will be a standard plug like you get on your kettle but one should be able to buy an appropriate charger for home charging.

[Poopadoop]

I thought you needed a special outlet installed to charge electric cars.

I read you can use a standard outlet but they take a lot longer, like 10 hours to charge. Should be fine tho if you're charging overnight.

[Poopadoop]

You can't seriously think it will be ok to have extension cables running from houses to cars parked on the road? It'll be a tripping hazard for pedestrians.

£20 at workplace depot.

[OngBonga]

Yeah like people are going to buy one of those. And like a traffic warden won't be a dick and give you a ticket anyway.

[The Bean Counter]

You can plug an EV into a regular socket. Charge at about 10 miles per hour. The superchargers do 200 miles in 15 mines, but the best charger for home and office use is 50 per hour.

I've seen extension cables running from hotel rooms to cars. It's only a matter of time before hotels and offices are forced to provide charging points by demand and they will also be dotted along pavements. I'll be going EV when my diesel is knackered in a few years. You might not even be able to buy a combustion engine in the UK by 2025.

[Poopadoop]

Wonder how many EU HGV drivers they're going to lure over here to work for 3 months and get kicked out on xmas eve? I'm guessing it's a number somewhere between zero and none.

Can't wait to hear about the next great idea they come up with to solve the problem.

[OngBonga]

You know this problem was completely manageable until the media told everyone not to panic buy, right? That was what triggered this. What do you suppose motivated the media to suggest people don't panic buy? I'm going to go out on a limb and say an anti-Brexit agenda.

Also if I were a European temp driver working in the UK, I'd want to fuck off back home for Christmas. Who wants to be stuck here instead of with the family in Poland?

[Poopadoop]

You know this problem was completely manageable until the media told everyone not to panic buy, right? That was what triggered this. What do you suppose motivated the media to suggest people don't panic buy? I'm going to go out on a limb and say an anti-Brexit agenda.

Yeah, the media played a big part in it. But the shortages were real, they just got overhyped. And Boris telling people not to panic buy was the final trigger.

Also if I were a European temp driver working in the UK, I'd want to fuck off back home for Christmas. Who wants to be stuck here instead of with the family in Poland?

Why would they come here in the first place on a 3 month contract? They're in high demand everywhere.

[OngBonga]

Why would they come here in the first place on a 3 month contract? They're in high demand everywhere.

Yes you're right, the UK is not the only place experiencing driver shortages.

And also, why indeed would they come here when we don't have the services to make their life on the road particularly pleasant?

What's interesting though is these problems are not new, they didn't suddenly emerge the day we left the EU. We've always had crap roadside services, mainland Europe was always a better place for HGV drivers to work. Even British drivers are happier when they're driving in Europe. There's been high demand across Europe for many years. So why did the European drivers come to work here in the first place?

[Poopadoop]

So why did the European drivers come to work here in the first place?

Maybe they had family here, and were hoping to settle? Dunno. But they were here, and now they're gone, and offering them a short-term contract for the privelege of coming back is not going to work.

So that's another soon-to-be failed plan. Add that to the pile of failed solutions like pretending there isn't a problem, increasing the limit on hours, making the tests easier, and bringing in the Army.

It's going to be an interesting winter.

[Poopadoop]

Our current gov't has a pattern of pretending problems don't exist, waiting until they get too big to ignore, and then acting surprised that the experts' predictions came true. It's true of the pandemic and it's true of the HGV shortage.

There's also the fact that they are politically tied to Brexit and so feel they have to deny it's causing any problems for the UK. A lot of people foresaw the shortage of labour in several domains and instead of getting in front of the problems years in advance the gov't just tried to whitewash everything, cross their fingers and hope for the best.

They are essentially turning a few significant but treatable problems into a series of long-term handicaps for the country.

[OngBonga]

It will indeed be an interesting winter, seeing as the government and media are doing everything they possibly can to fuck things up. Meanwhile, Labour are doing everything they can to make sure they don't accidentally win the next election.

This fuel crisis is not an accident, it is manufactured. Why? I don't know. Probably to stoke the Brexit debate, to make sure that the people are still bitterly divided. Maybe it's an attempt to get leave voters to reconsider their position, so they can try to get us back in the EU. Or maybe it's media noise while they bury shit like covid passport laws. Who knows? All I know is the people are collectively stupid and the media and government are taking full advantage.

There is no existing political party capable of running this country in the interests of the people. That's the state of British politics right now.

[Poopadoop]

It will indeed be an interesting winter, seeing as the government and media are doing everything they possibly can to fuck things up. Meanwhile, Labour are doing everything they can to make sure they don't accidentally win the next election.

This seems about right.

[Poopadoop]

Fuck me, someone just drop a bomb on us already.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19...pace-strategy/

[OngBonga]

I'm on the fence here for the simple reason I have absolutely no idea if there is a business case for space investment. It costs a lot of money to send things into orbit, but that means not many nations have that capability, which in turn means those who do send satellites into orbit can make money off them. Communications, GPS, space research, even secure data storage, I can immediately think of four potential markets.

If there's significant money to be made, to which the taxpayer benefits, then it's a great idea. If it's a huge waste of money, it's a terrible idea. Naturally I lean towards this just being a way to boost the taxpayer-funded income of military-grade corporations, but in pure business terms, there aren't many people qualified to know if it's economically feasible or not.

[Poopadoop]

Here's a tin hat theory: The gov't knew there was going to be a fuel shortage sooner or later. With the complicity of the media, they encouraged people to panic buy so they could blame it on consumers. In the near future, they'll implement rationing to a greater or lesser extent. It won't be called "rationing", but it will amount to the same thing - stores only open during certain hours, limits on how much fuel you can purchase at once - all little things designed to get people to drive less and use less fuel.

There's no other explanation for telling people not to panic buy when there were just a few petrol stations that were shutting down temporarily. If the media had reported that and Boris had said nothing, no-one would have lost their shit and sat in a queue for hours to get petrol. It had to be deliberate.

It's also straight out of their covid playbook. Tell people not to go to the beach so everyone goes to the beach, the pandemic spreads, then they can blame all the deaths on the public. And it works because the public doesn't trust the gov't as far as they can throw them, so as soon as the gov't tells them not to do something, they'll do it.

[OngBonga]

But there isn't a fuel shortage. There's a driver shortage. There's plenty of fuel, so they're saying. Granted they could be lying, but that lie gets exposed very quickly because if there's a fuel shortage then this continues, while if there is not then it won't continue.

There's no other explanation...

There is if you're willing to accept that there might be an agenda to create havoc so it can be blamed on Brexit. Or perhaps there's another agenda, such as a good old fashioned distraction.

As much as government and media are filth and need to be held to account, that shouldn't mean the general public get a free pass to behave like idiots and then blame others. The public have to accept their share of responsibility, and in this case it's rather large. People should be capable of critical thinking, they should not just absorb whatever the media say. It's all very well saying people don't trust the government and media, but that doesn't stop people from doing exactly what the govt want us to do... panic, argue with each other about politics, blame each other for the failings of govt, turn a blind eye to corruption, while saying nothing about creeping fascism, or even go as far as to cheerlead it.

[Poopadoop]

But there isn't a fuel shortage. There's a driver shortage.

I mean, you're splitting hairs here. The fuel doesn't do anyone any good if it's sitting in a depot somewhere instead of at the petrol stations. The driver shortage --> fuel shortage.

[Poopadoop]

There is if you're willing to accept that there might be an agenda to create havoc so it can be blamed on Brexit.

Why would Boris want people to blame it on Brexit? He's the one who started the panic by telling people not to panic. No-one would have even thought about panic-buying fuel because a few stations ran out somewhere on the other side of the country.

Or perhaps there's another agenda, such as a good old fashioned distraction.

Whatever it was that happened that was worse than this, I'm sure we'd have heard about it.

As much as government and media are filth and need to be held to account, that shouldn't mean the general public get a free pass to behave like idiots and then blame others. The public have to accept their share of responsibility, and in this case it's rather large. People should be capable of critical thinking, they should not just absorb whatever the media say.

I think it was George Carlin who said "Think about how stupid the average person is, then consider that half the population is even dumber than that."

Also, there comes a point where it's no longer people being stupid but it's rational to panic-buy. If you need petrol to get to work next week and there's a queue outside every station, you're going to join the queue before it all runs out. Mass hysteria of a sort, it's contagious. Just needs a spark to get it all started. It's easy to look at it from a distance and go 'what a bunch of idiots', but really it's just a few idiots to start it and everyone else is actually being fairly sensible. If I had needed to use my car for commuting in the next week, I would have been one of those people queueing up.

[OngBonga]

I mean, you're splitting hairs here. The fuel doesn't do anyone any good if it's sitting in a depot somewhere instead of at the petrol stations. The driver shortage --> fuel shortage.

Like I said before, this is a manageable driver shortage without the panic buying. It's not new, we've had this driver shortage for weeks if not months, and nobody noticed. It's only when people are told not to panic they panic. And Boris knows this.

Why would Boris want people to blame it on Brexit?

Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe they want us back in the EU without losing votes. Better for Tory voters to decide for themselves that it's not worth the hassle. But that is indeed a guess.

Whatever it was that happened that was worse than this, I'm sure we'd have heard about it.

Covid passports. Search twitter for "Plan B".

Also, there comes a point where it's no longer people being stupid but it's rational to panic-buy.

Joining the queue isn't joining in the panic. Everyone who has a car needs fuel. Filling your tank when you use quarter of a tank a week is panic buying. And that is stupid, because you're stockpiling fuel that somebody else needs. That somebody could be a doctor trying to get to work. People know this when they fill up needlessly, but they just don't want to have to queue again next week, even though this will all have blown over by then.

[Poopadoop]

Like I said before, this is a manageable driver shortage without the panic buying. It's not new, we've had this driver shortage for weeks if not months, and nobody noticed.

I think a few people might have noticed empty or half-empty shelves in their supermarkets.

Covid passports. Search twitter for "Plan B".

Covid passports exist in most countries. If the gov't here thinks they need to manufacture a fuel crisis to sneak in covid passports then they must really think the population is full of nutters.

[OngBonga]

I think a few people might have noticed empty or half-empty shelves in their supermarkets.

I thought we were talking about fuel?

Covid passports exist in most countries.

I guess you don't know what "Plan B" refers to. I'm not talking about international travel, we're looking at nightclubs and festivals. It's really interesting that they mention festivals in this plan, seeing as that isn't something to worry about until next May. We don't tend to have outdoor festivals in the UK during winter, for obvious reasons. So it's not like a temporary fix to a temporary problem, they see this as an ongoing solution, well into next year at the very least.

It looks to me like we're moving into medical apartheid. They intend to make life so miserable for the unvaccinated that the only solution is to vaccinate. This is despite the vaccine not actually stopping you getting the virus.

I'm guessing of course as to why they might want to create a distraction. It's just this "Plan B" bollocks happens to have been mentioned when everyone is too busy panic buying fuel to notice. Maybe I'm missing something else, maybe they have successfully buried some other news. This is not a new tactic, politicians have buried bad news during times of crisis since forever.

[Poopadoop]

It looks to me like we're moving into medical apartheid. They intend to make life so miserable for the unvaccinated that the only solution is to vaccinate. This is despite the vaccine not actually stopping you getting the virus.

Sounds good to me. They've done this in France and Canada already, to name two. In either, you can't go to any inside public space like a restaurant or supermarket without a vax. Probably most places in Europe too I imagine.

Do you prefer we have the pandemic last a few more years and a lot more deaths?

[The Bean Counter]

Wasn't there an Imperial study recently that found the likelihood of catching covid and passing it on was lower when vaccinated? And that the impact when caught was also lower? The latter definitely chimes with what I've seen in friends, family and colleagues.

[OngBonga]

Do you prefer we have the pandemic last a few more years and a lot more deaths?

I'm not in favour of forced vaccination, and when the consequences of not vaccinating are social exclusion, then for all intents and purposes, it's forced.

We're talking about a vaccine that was rushed, which makes it experimental, and we're talking about a virus that is not dangerous to the vast majority of people. This is not plague territory. And the vaccine is not very effective. We can talk about what the statistics say, but not so long ago we were talking about how the media and govt aren't to be trusted. Why trust them when it comes to this? Fear, that's why. People are afraid, and fear is the perfect way to control people. Religion has done it for millennia.

I can say with some confidence the vaccine is ineffective because my vaxed housemate is currently isolating with confirmed covid. It was certainly ineffective for him. Sure, maybe he gets it worse without the vaccination, we can never know. And the lack of vaccination for me hasn't resulted in me getting the virus, despite the close contact. Yes I too am isolating and testing regularly. But I'm not in any hurry to vaccinate.

By saying you think that unvaccinated people should become socially excluded, not allowed to mingle with the masses, you're putting a huge amount of trust in government, media, and pharmaceutical companies. You're also stripping away the right of an individual to medical privacy.

[OngBonga]

Wasn't there an Imperial study recently that found the likelihood of catching covid and passing it on was lower when vaccinated? And that the impact when caught was also lower? The latter definitely chimes with what I've seen in friends, family and colleagues.

How much faith do you have in such studies? Other sources imply that vaccinations cause mutations of the virus. There are plenty of claims that the vaccination causes medical problems. Naturally, there's a lot of disinformation doing the rounds so it's not like I just blindly believe what I read. But I apply that thought process to both sides. I don't blindly believe what the govt tell me either.

I have zero faith in pharmaceutical companies. This is huge business for them. We saw how much money disappeared with our failed "test and trace" programme. The level of corruption associated with this pandemic is astonishing. Yet people just lap up what they're told because fear.

I'm not keen on taking an experimental vaccine by means of social pressure that results in profit for pharma companies.

[MadMojoMonkey]

The amount of data verifying that the vaccine is one of the single most effective vaccines ever is astounding. The early release was rushed ahead of some safety trials, but at this point, we have the most widespread "safety" trial ever performed.

The vaccines are safe and effective. Literally all the data point to this.

If you choose not to get vaccinated, then no, you shouldn't be allowed inside public places. The vaccine is free and widely available and your right to control your body is fine, but it comes with consequences.

FFS, you already have many vaccines. Polio, dyptheria, tetanus, just to name a few. People vaccinate their babies because it saves lives. Even if you weren't vaccinated, that's a thing almost everyone does.

The stupid politicization of the vaccine in today's world is asinine. You're free to embrace doubt, but when you do so at the cost of any research into trusted sources (fuck the politicians and media), then you're being an ass. You're free to be an ass, but when your method of assitude puts other people's lives at risk, then no, you can't go into crowded, indoor spaces to spread a respiratory disease. Boo hoo.



But the bottom line is this.
People are dying. If you don't care, fine. Don't argue that it's moral to not care about people dying, though.

[boost]

How much faith do you have in such studies? Other sources imply that vaccinations cause mutations of the virus.

This is the way it's typically talked about, but to be perfectly accurate, the environmental pressures are not causing mutation, they're selecting for the fittest mutation for the given environment. Here's the thing though, any change in environment will cause selection pressures. For example, people gaining immunity by way of getting the virus and dodging death puts selection pressure on the virus.

The way that we stop new strains is via vaccination and social distancing/ppe. The more immunity and the less paths of transmission, the less circulation, the less chances a viable mutation catches fire.

[Poopadoop]

And the vaccine is not very effective.

Yes, it is.

We can talk about what the statistics say, but not so long ago we were talking about how the media and govt aren't to be trusted. Why trust them when it comes to this?

Because for once, what they're saying jibes with what the experts are saying.

And fwiw, a lot of the media isn't saying take the vaccine, they're saying "arrgggh, freedom!"

I can say with some confidence the vaccine is ineffective because my vaxed housemate is currently isolating with confirmed covid.

Your anecdote with n=1 obviously trumps the reams of data from around the world that the vaccine is effective.

By saying you think that unvaccinated people should become socially excluded, not allowed to mingle with the masses, you're putting a huge amount of trust in government, media, and pharmaceutical companies. You're also stripping away the right of an individual to medical privacy.

Like I said, I'm putting my trust in scientists. Just like I put my trust in engineers to build bridges I can walk or drive over without them collapsing. Just like I put my trust in my doctor when he prescribes me exercises for my bad back. This is no different to me.

And I have no idea what "medical privacy" even means. It sounds like a buzzword people made up to justify not taking a vaccine for some other reason.

[OngBonga]

The vaccines are safe and effective. Literally all the data point to this.

Here's the thing... vaccinated people are much more likely to let their guard down. They are more likely to spread the virus because they think they are immune. If I get so much as a runny nose, I'm isolating and testing. So you can use words like "ass" but I don't think that's fair. I am not going to spread the virus because I know I am not vaccinated and am taking more precautions.

If you choose not to get vaccinated, then no, you shouldn't be allowed inside public places.

Why? Who is the vaccine protecting? What you're saying here is a punishment for not protecting myself. If the vaccine is safe and effective, then vaccinated people shouldn't care if I am or am not vaccinated.

From what I'm reading, vaccinated people who get covid are significantly less likely to suffer from a fever. That's not a good thing. Fever is a natural defence to a virus... it increases body temperature so the body can better fight the virus. If I get covid, I want a fever.

The vaccine is free and widely available and your right to control your body is fine, but it comes with consequences.

If these consequences are limited to the time when the virus is actually rampant, fine. But if these consequences are for life, this isn't fine. A mostly vaccinated population should end the pandemic, if it doesn't this is clear evidence the vaccination is ineffective.

FFS, you already have many vaccines.

Yes, I do. Vaccines that were tested for many years before I had them.. And vaccines I do not have to prove I have had to go to a festival.

The stupid politicization of the vaccine in today's world is asinine.

Blind faith in government and pharma is asinine to me. You can dismiss that by referring to "science" instead, but if you're telling me that the science says the vaccine is effective, yet the vaccine is not ending the pandemic despite the vast majority of the population being vaccinated, then you should be questioning the science. Why aren't you? That seems political too.

but when your method of assitude puts other people's lives at risk, then no, you can't go into crowded, indoor spaces to spread a respiratory disease.

I'm not putting other people's lives at risk, no more than anyone else is. Vaccinated people can spread the virus too. Vaccinated people won't be taking the same precautions I will be because they think they won't spread the virus.

If I do get the virus, chances are very high that I got it off a vaccinated person. Did that person put my life at risk? Are they an ass?

If I ignore symptoms and carry on mixing with the general population, then yes I am being an ass. But I wouldn't dream of doing such a thing.

People are dying. If you don't care, fine.

Of course I care. I have not told anyone not to have the vaccine. I am not an antivaxer shouting on twitter.

Don't argue that it's moral to not care about people dying, though.

I'm saying it's immoral to socially exclude people who don't have the vaccine, at least long term. Yes the pandemic is ongoing, so curtailed liberties at this time is not something I have a problem with. But it's a problem if these restrictions continue after the pandemic is over. And, like I said previously, if the vaccine does not end the pandemic, it is ineffective.

[OngBonga]

And I have no idea what "medical privacy" even means. It sounds like a buzzword people made up to justify not taking a vaccine for some other reason.

If I were to invite you for dinner, would it be acceptable for me to demand you prove your AIDS status before letting you into my house?

Your health is none of my business. Your vaccination status is none of my business. These are private matters. I don't think I have any right to enquire into any aspect of your health. That's medical privacy.

[OngBonga]

This is the way it's typically talked about, but to be perfectly accurate, the environmental pressures are not causing mutation, they're selecting for the fittest mutation for the given environment. Here's the thing though, any change in environment will cause selection pressures. For example, people gaining immunity by way of getting the virus and dodging death puts selection pressure on the virus.

The way that we stop new strains is via vaccination and social distancing/ppe. The more immunity and the less paths of transmission, the less circulation, the less chances a viable mutation catches fire.

I'm not disputing this, but neither am I blindly accepting it as fact.

Mutations should be a good thing, best I understand it. A virus is evolving because to be successful, it wants to be more contagious and less damaging to its host. The perfect virus is very easily transmitted between people, without being noticed at all.

I'm not a virologist though, and presumably neither is anyone else here.

[Poopadoop]

If I were to invite you for dinner, would it be acceptable for me to demand you prove your AIDS status before letting you into my house?

That depends if you're planning to shag me or not.

If I'm about to have sex with someone should I not be allowed to ask them if they have an STD?

Your health is none of my business. Your vaccination status is none of my business. These are private matters. I don't think I have any right to enquire into any aspect of your health. That's medical privacy.

It's a communicable disease. I don't care about your so-called "privacy" if you're going to spew covid germs in my face, and I don't expect anyone to care about mine either.

[OngBonga]

That depends if you're planning to shag me or not.

You might cut yourself. AIDS isn't just an STD.

And no, I don't think it's all that appropriate to ask someone you're about to have sex with if they have an STD. Rather, you should be fucking people you trust enough to tell you unprompted.

I've asked a girl if she's on the pill, but never if she has an STD. That's really going to kill the moment.

I don't care about your so-called "privacy" if you're going to spew covid germs in my face

The problem with this is that you're basically assuming that unvaccinated = infected, while vaccinated = not infected. This is incredibly naive and only serves to support my claim that vaccinated people let their guard down.

[MadMojoMonkey]

A vaccinated person with their guard down is less risk to society than an unvaccinated person with their guard up. This is a respiratory disease. It spreads via spit you exhale as moisture in the air. That moisture is a gas. Gasses expand and dilute to fill the volume containing them. When outdoors, that's great. Plenty of room to expand into and dry out and die before getting to another person's lungs. In a closed room, we're all breathing the same air. The odds that spit from your lungs makes it into someone else's lungs is almost guaranteed.

You don't need physical contact, or blood contact. You only need to inhale an invisible amount of moisture.
That's why an unvaccinated person shouldn't be allowed in indoor spaces during a respiratory pandemic.

Not suffering from a fever means the infection you're experiencing is not threatening your life to the point where your body is willing to self-immolate in an effort to kill the virus before killing itself. Having a fever is not something you want. Having a fever means your body cannot fight the infection with anti-bodies and it has to resort to more extreme measures. Those measures can damage your own cells, can cause brain damage if the fever is too high for too long.

I agree, that if the pandemic ends and the vaccine requirement stays, that'd be wrong. It's purely hypothetical at this time.

COVID vaccines have been put to the general public and billions of people have received the vaccine. What greater "safety" trial can you cite from the history of vaccination? Sure, 2 years ago the vaccine was totally untested. But not anymore.

Your failure to look at what scientists and epidemiologists are saying about the effectiveness of the vaccine is on you. I agree that trusting politicians, the pharma companies, or the media to get this information is sketchy at best. There are real experts who, in the course of their professional licensing have sworn to "do no harm" talking, too. Please learn what they have to say and what THEY mean when they say the vaccine is effective. "Effective" doesn't mean 100% perfect. It means you're much safer with the vaccine than without it.

I have explained how being in a crowded indoor space is putting everyone there at risk. If you catch the disease from someone taking what measures they have been advised to take to prevent you getting sick, then no, you can't really blame them for a microscopic, invisible thing getting from them to you. However, if they're pissing and moaning about how your health and not being infected is beneath their sense of personal freedom, then yeah. Their bravado and idiocy has infected you with a potentially fatal disease and they claim it's their right to do that to you, then fuck them.

Again, I agree that if these restrictions persist after the virus is eradicated, then that would be a new problem to fight against. Right now, that is still a hypothetical. Right now, people are still dying to COVID. Right now, the experts in stopping this are saying to get a vaccine and practice social distancing and wear a mask when indoors.