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*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

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  1. #3376
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    What about all the other parts of the country who voted Remain?
    Remember I'm a nationalist, not a countyist or a townist or a houseist.

    The nation is the limit of democratic freedom for me. Democracy is not perfect, it's just the best system we have, and all democracies are not equal, some are more democratic than others.

    UK democracy is an excellent example of how it's not perfect, far from it. We're a union of nations, so the largest nation politically dominates the smaller nations, causing problems. Are those problems worth it? Probably, but that's easy for me to say coming from the politically dominant side. However, we're culturally close enough that a political union can work, and has worked for a long time.

    That isn't true of Europe. We're not culturally similar, we have different languages and different ways of life. We have common values which makes us allies and economic partners, but we don't have a common culture. So it's much harder for a political union to work in the interests of everyone.

    I've always said I'm in favour of economic integration, just not political. We work as partners. But when they're setting the terms in which we can trade, when they're setting the trade laws that apply in the UK, that is political dominance.

    Is economics worth more than sovereignty? I don't think so, you do.

    Nationalism = thoughtless flag-shagging. Got it.
    Oh wait, no you don't understand nationalism at all. You just see the worst of it and assume that's what it is.

    Well, by your logic you must think everyone called Adolf is an evil dictator.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  2. #3377
    Most nationalists in England don't give a shit about the flag. I have precisely zero flags on display in my house. Go to USA and Canada and you'll see them everywhere. They love flags over there.

    I don't have an inflated sense of pride relating to the nation of England. That's not what it's about. I don't think we should rule ourselves because we're better than others. It's because I believe it's the optimal form of democracy for large populations.

    As a nationalist, I respect all nations and their desire for self rule. Including Scotland.

    So no it's not flag shagging, and it's not even racism or xenophobia. It's a cultural identity and a desire to not be politically dominated by foreign powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3378
    Here's a question poop - do you think the whole world should learn English?

    I mean, it would make economic sense for that to happen, and who cares about national identity and culture? Different languages around the world act as a huge barrier for political and economic integration.

    If you think nationalism is a joke, then surely language is a problem that needs solving for the economic benefit of everyone, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #3379
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    A common language for all would be quite handy. They tried that with Esperanto but I think English has been more successful so far. Maybe Mandarin in the future.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  5. #3380
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Different languages around the world act as a huge barrier for political and economic integration.
    The biggest barrier to trade is not language, it's law. The fact that we've made trading with the EU harder without changing the language we use one jot is evidence of that.


    Not really clear to me why we would want political integration beyond that which facilitates peaceful relations and trade, or that such integration relies on a common language. I can barely understand half of the people in Scotland and yet we live in the same country.





    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If you think nationalism is a joke
    I don't think it's a joke, I just don't see it as a reason to put up unnecessary trade barriers with countries that want to trade with us.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  6. #3381
    Here's a question for you Ong: If nationalism is such an overwhelming force in politics, why do you think the other 27 members of the EU joined up with each other and have stayed together for so long?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  7. #3382
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I sometimes get the sense that ong wants to pause time and lock current cultures and peoples in place and empower them to have the right to keep it all that way.

    I say this with love, ongie m'boy, it sounds ridiculous and even kinda mean spirited and I don't get it.

    Culture is dynamic - constantly moving, evolving, adapting, embracing and rejecting - it is not the same today as it was a year ago, a decade ago, a century ago.

    I sometimes feel like ong doesn't agree with me on that last sentence, but I can't figure out how.
    Help me out, buddy?


    Mostly, people don't move that far from where they were born. A small %-age of people ever want to do that. Mostly that happens when those people are persecuted or in harm's way. Only a small %-age of a small %-age of people have nefarious intent.

    It has always been that way. England - Angle-land was created in its current form by various waves of migration and conquerors. I don't understand why ong wants to pause the time "now," you see. Why not pre-Roman invasion? Why not pre-Viking? Why now? Other than the happenstance of history that you personally remember the recent past.

    How can you not acknowledge that British culture of the recent past is not the same as British culture of today?

    How could pausing any culture to stop adapting and evolving ever be to their advantage?!?!
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  8. #3383
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    The biggest barrier to trade is not language, it's law.
    Law can be changed at the swipe of a pen. Language can't.

    The fact that we've made trading with the EU harder without changing the language we use one jot is evidence of that.
    We've also made it easier, in theory, to trade with the rest of the world. Don't forget that. The EU wouldn't let us arrange trade deals that don't involve them. So what, sacrifice the rest of the world to make trading with the EU easier? That's not so bad if that decision can be challenged at elections, and changed at the swipe of a pen, instead of a once-in-a-generation debate and referendum. But it's crazy to think any member state can just go in and out of the bloc at will. In order to streamline trade with Europe, we have to sign up for decades and accept their trade laws. That's what it means to give up sovereignty, and that's what nationalists, and others, have a problem with.

    Here's a question for you Ong: If nationalism is such an overwhelming force in politics, why do you think the other 27 members of the EU joined up with each other and have stayed together for so long?
    It is an overwhelming force in politics in many places, and those places are questioning their membership.

    They have stayed together for so long for a multitude of reasons. For small countries, the trade and freedom-of-movement benefits are so huge that they consider it worth giving up the sovereignty. But it's not so cohesive as you're making out here. Serbia, Hungary, Italy, Greece, you've got important countries here who might not be member states in 10 or 20 years. Or maybe they will be, and if so, it'll be because they consider it worth it.

    The UK democratically decided it wasn't worth it. I doubt very much we'll be the only one that makes that decision during the life of the EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #3384
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    I sometimes get the sense that ong wants to pause time and lock current cultures and peoples in place and empower them to have the right to keep it all that way.
    It's not about "pausing time". I don't want us to go back to horses and carts. Culture changes, largely thanks to technology, but also due to other forces such as cultural integration. That's not something I consider a bad thing.

    But there are tons of cultural traits around the world that should be cherished and preserved. Language is one such example. Even though using the same language around the world would have huge economic benefits, it would be a huge human loss.

    Music is another example. Should we associate reggae with Jamaica? Or just humans? They're proud of what they've given to the world of music, why take that away from them and say "this isn't yours, it doesn't belong to a nation or a group of people, it belongs to the world, to humans". Art, archaeology, education, there are so many things that can be considered "culture", that we should seek to preserve through love of history and love of the journey that our species is taking.

    Culture is dynamic - constantly moving, evolving, adapting, embracing and rejecting - it is not the same today as it was a year ago, a decade ago, a century ago.


    I sometimes feel like ong doesn't agree with me on that last sentence, but I can't figure out how.
    Help me out, buddy?
    Some cultural traits and identities are dynamic, others not so much. Language being the most obvious one that is almost static. You can't just say "culture is dynamic" and think that means any more than saying "planets move". Yes, but they remain the same planets, even if some things about that planet might have changed.

    I don't understand why ong wants to pause the time "now"
    I don't. I just also don't want to see nations of people, that is people who have a historical identity, whether that be English, Icelandic, whatever, lose that identity. This is not about preserving culture forever exactly as it is now, or any specific time in history, but celebrating what makes us different without it being about what makes us better.

    You can say that "Icelandic" means nothing more than "a human born in Iceland" if you want, but I don't agree. If that were true, they would be identical to the English in every way except their place of birth. They are not. So being Icelandic means something more. Should we seek to destroy that distinction, or celebrate it?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #3385
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Law can be changed at the swipe of a pen. Language can't.
    Poetic, but has nothing to do with the point I was arguing.





    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    in theory,
    Right, so where's all these great new trade deals we were promised?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So what, sacrifice the rest of the world to make trading with the EU easier?
    That's not how it worked, for two reasons. First, we weren't just a passive satellite member of the EU having trade deals we were made to follow, we had a say in which trade deals were arranged. As one of Big Three, we had a very big say in fact.

    Second, we had better trade deals with the rest of the world than we do now, AND we had free trade with the EU. We were in the EU, getting all the benefits of being in the largest trading bloc in the world with a lot of weight behind it. That's what makes for good trade deals, not that you can act independently to buy lamb from NZ and w/e the fuck other trade deals they've managed to accomplish now we've got our sovereignty back.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    In order to streamline trade with Europe, we have to sign up for decades and accept their trade laws. That's what it means to give up sovereignty, and that's what nationalists, and others, have a problem with.
    Yup, why be a major part of the world's biggest trading bloc when we can arrange our own little side deals with countries halfway around the world, like (checks notes), the deal with Australia that's forecast to net us (checks notes), a long-term 0.4% boost to GDP. In other words, we only need another 99 deals like that and we'll make up for what we've lost by leaving the EU.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It is an overwhelming force in politics in many places, and those places are questioning their membership.
    Put down the Brexit koolaid for a minute, you're not going to like this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-since-brexit
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  11. #3386
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Right, so where's all these great new trade deals we were promised?
    I'm sorry that you were unable to understand the context of "in theory".

    Usually that term is used to imply that it's not happening in practise, but it could/should.

    As one of Big Three, we had a very big say in fact.
    Sure. Which, I might add, is wholly unfair on all the "lesser" member states who were almost entirely at the economic mercy of Germany, France and the UK.

    But still, even as a major player, we were still at the mercy of Germany and France. That is, if they so chose to, they could work together for their bilateral interests and against ours. It doesn't even matter if they were or were not doing this, the fact our economy is vulnerable to two major European countries, one of which we were at war with less than a century ago, and the other two centuries, is not an acceptable situation for people who value sovereignty.

    Second, we had better trade deals with the rest of the world than we do now...
    Then this is down to the incompetence of the government. At least it's our government being incompetent and we can change them. That is the whole point of democratic control. Whether we use that democratic control wisely is another matter.

    Put down the Brexit koolaid for a minute, you're not going to like this.
    lol graduian

    I don't care to read the opinion and likely-biased poll a pro-EU left wing news agency is publishing. I'll just say I don't even care it it works for them or not, if they leave or stay, it's not my business if Serbia or wherever remains or leaves. I don't want the EU to fail just to give myself a smug sense of satisfaction. If they want to have a superstate, good luck with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #3387
    I say that but if the EU did fail, inevitably I would have at least some smug satisfaction, so long as they weren't fighting anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #3388
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm sorry that you were unable to understand the context of "in theory".

    Usually that term is used to imply that it's not happening in practise, but it could/should.
    Right, it ***could*** happen. But it hasn't. And it won't. Because it's bullshit.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Which, I might add, is wholly unfair on all the "lesser" member states who were almost entirely at the economic mercy of Germany, France and the UK.
    Not if they benefit as well from the overall scheme. Which apparently most of them feel they do, as they're in the EU.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    But still, even as a major player, we were still at the mercy of Germany and France. That is, if they so chose to, they could work together for their bilateral interests and against ours.
    lol, so rather than wait for some hypothetical Franco-German economic alliance to form against us, we decided to force them into one by default, by leaving the EU. Brilliant.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It doesn't even matter if they were or were not doing this, the fact our economy is vulnerable to two major European countries,
    You're right, we're in a much stronger position now. We hold all the cards lol.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    one of which we were at war with less than a century ago, and the other two centuries,
    And both of which have been at war with each other over the same period lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Then this is down to the incompetence of the government. At least it's our government being incompetent and we can change them. That is the whole point of democratic control. Whether we use that democratic control wisely is another matter.
    No, it's down to the face that we threw away all the leverage we had as part of a trading bloc. That's why trading blocs exist.

    When we have a Labour gov't they'll be more competent than the current shower in all sorts of ways. Making tiny trade deals with faraway small economies won't be on their list of priorities, because they're not trying to sell us unicorn Brexit "benefits."




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    lol graduian
    yeah i know, you prefer to believe all the unicorn promises and MEGA propaganda instead of actual data.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  14. #3389
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    But there are tons of cultural traits around the world that should be cherished and preserved. Language is one such example. Even though using the same language around the world would have huge economic benefits, it would be a huge human loss.
    The languages of today are the product of past languages diverging, combining, and just slowly being made up anew along the way.
    The word literally has changed to mean its own antonym in our lifetimes.
    The English language more than most incorporates words from other languages all over the world as its own.

    To butt into the other conversation a bit... pidgin languages pop up all the time when people who don't speak a common language need to assemble some minimal overlap from each language to facilitate trade. There is much evidence of this happening throughout history all over the world. While language is needed, financial profit is a strong motivator to get some basics established.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Music is another example. Should we associate reggae with Jamaica? Or just humans?
    I guess that depends on whether or not we're talking to another human..?
    To a Martian, it's all human music.
    lol

    I think there's rich value in understanding the history of cultural elements, like knowing reggae music comes from Jamaica, but the first paragraph on the wiki page for reggae music describes the musical styles it was influenced by and combined to become its own thing. It was a style of music that integrated very American musical sensibilities (Jazz and R&B) with local beats and sounds (mento).

    So by your argument, really, reggae is (US) American music? It's not traditional Jamaican music, after all. (I mean, it's definitely a post-Beatles thing.)
    No, of course not. The power and influence of that combination became its own thing. It became Jamaican culture less than 100 years ago.

    By your argument, should we have kept the American music out of Jamaica so that traditional Jamaican music would not be lost?
    But ... isn't that the people in Jamaica's choice?
    Isn't the culmination of each individual's sovereignty over what they choose what culture is?

    And isn't that grand total of a people's subjective whims necessarily extremely dynamic?

    Right?
    Like, you see where I'm coming from, here?

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Some cultural traits and identities are dynamic, others not so much. Language being the most obvious one that is almost static.
    -.-
    Old English -> Middle English -> Modern English -> 'Murican
    *dab*

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is not about preserving culture forever exactly as it is now, or any specific time in history, but celebrating what makes us different without it being about what makes us better.
    Is it? 'Cause it sounds like telling people they can't change and grow and learn what they like best from all they encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So being Icelandic means something more. Should we seek to destroy that distinction, or celebrate it?
    Celebrating it and preserving it are different things.
    Celebrating what it is, how its history got it here, and celebrating where it goes is all good, IMO.

    Arguing that something besides the collective choices of people who live there / was born there / [I'm not drawing a hard line about who gets to call themselves Icelandic or whatever] seems bogus, IMO. People born in Iceland today are growing up in a different world than people born in Iceland a decade ago. Those kids are going to grow and change and learn and do whatever it is they do. That's what's going to be Icelandic culture in the future. Not what it is today. Not what it was a decade ago. It will be what it becomes based on nothing that can be rigidly controlled.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  15. #3390
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I am honestly surprised that you both have managed to have the same argument over Brexit for nearly 4 years running.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  16. #3391
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Thanks to this convo, I know now ska music is also Jamaican in origin.
    First I heard of it was prob. the Mighty Mighty Boss Tones and Reel Big Fish in the 90's.
    Later, Sublime, which is still bangin'.

    I was in high school at the time and didn't really think about stuff like this.

    Ska came out of WWII era stuff like radio spreading music from the southern US to Jamaica. American soldiers had records that found their way around the island.

    It was very much a sudden cultural shift, fueled by new tech, that broadened the communication horizons of the Jamaican people.

    Then the darn kids went and made rock music.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  17. #3392
    Sublime is the best white ska I've heard. But Jamaican ska is far superior, it's wonderful music.

    You make some fine points about culture, some I agree with, others not so much. With regards language, I did say "almost" static, because it isn't actually static and I'm aware of that. It's very slow to change compared to things directly influenced by technology, in some cases much slower than others. I wasn't really thinking of English when I made those comments, consider Welsh, or Icelandic, or many other minor languages around the world. Have these changed? Not so much, because there's less cultural integration and a stronger national identity. Icelandic is the closest language to Old Norse (Vikings) that we have left. And there are social movements within many nations to preserve their native language where it has become secondary to another. Some Scottish people want to preserve the Celtic language, even though very few people speak it these days (approx 1% of Scotland), and nearly all of those who do also speak English. The number of people who speak exclusively Scots Gaelic must be lower than 100, and they'll be old folk who live on remote islands. Scots Gaelic probably hasn't changed at all in centuries, other than to perhaps borrow a word from English.

    People born in Iceland today are growing up in a different world than people born in Iceland a decade ago.
    We only really need to go back 50 years in Iceland to see a completely different nation, a poor people who basically spent the winters hiding in their houses trying to keep warm. The shift in standard of living for these people is possibly the most dramatic in the modern world. That of course means huge cultural changes. But they also still believe in pixies. Some aspects of their culture doesn't change.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  18. #3393
    Jamaican ska...

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  19. #3394
    I mean I know it has its roots in American jazz and R&B but this is a distinctly Jamaican sound, and very much 1960s sound at that. This is Jamaican culture and always will be.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  20. #3395
    Here's an old Jamaican man doing ska...

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  21. #3396
    Max Romeo is more famed for his reggae, I've seen him twice. Absolutely wonderful. He's still plodding on, saw him last in summer 2022 (when I went to France).

    Don Drummond (that first beautiful piece of music) was a convicted killer and died in prison. He was a founding member of the Skatalites, a major Jamaican ska band.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 01-11-2024 at 04:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  22. #3397
    It's almost as if people care more about paying their bills and getting a doctor's appt. than they do about shipping asylum seekers to Rwanda.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articl...16-17-jan-2024
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  23. #3398
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  24. #3399
    Lefty bankers hating on sovereignty.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/14/brex...achs-says.html
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  25. #3400
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  26. #3401
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    When you're in one of the highest offices in your gov't and you blame the "deep state" for your failures.

    You WERE the deep state, you clown.


    lol
    quango
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  27. #3402
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    When you're in one of the highest offices in your gov't and you blame the "deep state" for your failures.

    You WERE the deep state, you clown.
    Well, not entirely. The DS usually refers to the national security apparatus, e.g., the CIA, FBI, heads of armed forces, etc.. In the UK that would be MI5, MI6, etc. While the president/PM is nominally the head of all of them, that doesn't mean they don't have their own agendas.

    It's still hard to see how or why the DS would choose to crash the UK economy to stop Liz Truss though. It was the markets that did that, not MI5, ldo. And it wasn't a part of some woke conspiracy it was because her little budget involved borrowing a shitload of money to give big tax breaks to the wealthy. Which, to quote an economist at the time, was "batshit".


    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    lol
    quango
    Come on now, everyone knows it was trans civil servants who caused the Great Depression.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  28. #3403
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Fucking mind-blowing that the political right is so butthurt about wokeness that they're willing to throw away democracy over it.


    Meanwhile, Tucker Carlson goes to a wealthy neighborhood in the wealthiest Russian city and is "radicalized" against democracy.

    Hey Tucker... take a drive 30 minutes in any direction and look at the actual cost of that wealthy region.
    SMH

    Inb4 Tucker is off to N Korea to talk about the amazing noodles in the supermarket, further radicalizing him.



    It's just such a shame that we don't have noodles or supermarkets in the US... oh wait... I mean we have many per square mile in any populated area and driving 30 minutes in any direction will mostly not change that, though the density of supermarkets does go up a bit when you leave the cities. Cities tend to have more specialized shops than a "get it all here" store.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  29. #3404
    I'd say LT has gone full retard, but it's a little late for that I guess.

    I mean her argument isn't even that the DS caused the economy to crash, it's that it (and the trans activisits and whoever other "enemies" she had) wouldn't allow her policies to be enacted. So apparently, as soon as she announced her policies, the markets were ready to start booming, but instead crashed in disappointment when they realised the baddies weren't going to implement them.

    That is an amazing thought process going on there.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  30. #3405
    I don't believe for one second Liz Truss was capable of dreaming up economic policies that would result in a boom, but I also don't believe for one second that she, or any PM, was/is actually in control of policy. idk what this has to do with trans activists, but the concept of a "deep state" is not something I dismiss just because it's Liz Truss banging on about it.

    I don't think it specifically refers to MI5/MI6 in the UK, it's a loose term that can mean different things to different people. To me, if I can even try to define it, it's unelected people who have more influence on policy than elected people. MI5/MI6 might have significant influence when it comes to national security and foreign policy, but I'm not so sure about economics, so it's not clear to me that they qualify as "deep state".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #3406
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    MI5/MI6 might have significant influence when it comes to national security and foreign policy, but I'm not so sure about economics, so it's not clear to me that they qualify as "deep state".
    The word "state" implies it's someone who works for the government though. The bankers don't work for the gov't, the markets don't either. So when a PM announces a financial policy and the markets and banks freak out, it's not because they don't like the PM, it's because they think the policy itself is fucked up in a big way.

    In Brains' case, the markets reacted because she announced a big borrowing spree that was going to be used to cut taxes for rich people, with the ostensible purpose of growing the economy (trickle-down economics). This doesn't work at the best of times, but in late 2022 there was already growing inflation and marginal growth, which is a bad time to try to stimulate spending. Don't take my word for it though, there's a blog post here from someone who knows a lot more than I do.

    https://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/truss-k...udget-one-year

    There was also the fact that her and Kwarteng ignored the Office for Budgetary Responsibility, which is solely there to keep politicians from doing retarded things. It's as if they knew the OBR would say "don't do that, that's retarded," but because of blind ideology, or corruption from disaster capitalists disguised as think tanks, or whatever, they went ahead with it.

    Margaret Thatcher once said "you can't buck the market." And this is what she meant - you can't enact a retarded monetary policy, or even talk like you are going to, and expect the markets to not react negatively to it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  32. #3407
    ...
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 02-22-2024 at 06:44 PM. Reason: double posted
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  33. #3408
    From the link above. It wasn't just the OBR she was threatening to shit all over, it was the Treasury and the Bank of England as well.

    Within days of Liz Truss taking office as Prime Minister, the Head of HM Treasury, Sir Tom Scholar, had been sacked. This move was seen by many as a direct challenge to the independence of the Treasury, particularly as the Prime Minister had made clear in her campaign to become Conservative Party Leader that she wanted to change ‘Treasury Orthodoxy’. In addition, she had also made clear in the campaign that she was going to open up the issue of Bank of England independence. And, finally, the Chancellor asked the OBR not to produce their independent forecast and analysis to accompany the Mini-Budget. The financial markets saw all of this as a clear message that the new Prime Minister and Chancellor were challenging/ignoring the advice of the very institutions that had ensured economic and financial stability within the United Kingdom.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  34. #3409
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    The word "state" implies it's someone who works for the government though.
    On the contrary, it implies the opposite. The government is not the state, it is a party, it is elected, and serves a term before facing another election. The state is an sociopolitical entity, basically a country or a nation. The people who run the country aren't necessarily the same people who run the government, in fact if they are that implies an undemocratic political landscape such as North Korea or Russia where the government and state are basically one and the same.

    If you were to ask military folk who they work for, they wouldn't tell you the PM. They would tell you the King. That's because he represents the state, not the PM, which is why he's officially the head of state.

    The bankers don't work for the gov't, the markets don't either.
    No they don't. The Bank of England is a state financial tool though, the UK's central bank, and they have significant influence on the markets. Unelected people within the Bank of England are in a position to influence economic policy more than elected ministers. So the BoE is, arguably, "deep state".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  35. #3410
    Quote Originally Posted by ong
    ...in fact if they are that implies an undemocratic political landscape such as North Korea or Russia where the government and state are basically one and the same.
    Or it implies a perfect democracy, but I don't think that exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  36. #3411
    You can argue semantics over what does and doesn't constitute the "deep state", but none of that changes the fact that it was her batshit economic policies that sunk Liz Truss, not some hidden polity.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  37. #3412
    Well on that we can agree, but I don't find that particularly interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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