*** The Official MAGAposting thread ***

[CoccoBill]

I would say that when a system of humans has more individual liberty, that system has a more robust trial and error function.

Wouldn't it be preferable to skip some of those errors if we've already identified them?

[wufwugy]

Wouldn't it be preferable to skip some of those errors if we've already identified them?

Absolutely, yet there is a catch: unintended consequences. Any system of sustainable error solving has to also solve the unintended consequences, most of which are not known or identified (hence unintended) at the time of implementation. The best functioning system is then not one that solves for errors given current knowledge and the current status, but solves for errors given future/potential knowledge and future/potential status. A system that sustainably solves problems isn't one that applies a known solution to a known problem; instead, it uses a known function to solve unknown problems, roughly speaking.

[CoccoBill]

Absolutely, yet there is a catch: unintended consequences. Any system of sustainable error solving has to also solve the unintended consequences, most of which are not known or identified (hence unintended) at the time of implementation. The best functioning system is then not one that solves for errors given current knowledge and the current status, but solves for errors given future/potential knowledge and future/potential status. A system that sustainably solves problems isn't one that applies a known solution to a known problem; instead, it uses a known function to solve unknown problems, roughly speaking.

Agreed, the system needs to be self-correcting. It's just that I'm unconvinced that the market forces, in effect evolution, is the most efficient solution in all cases. The correcting effect of trial and error is limited, in most cases just to the one making the error and some of those immediately around him, if even that, but certainly not the whole population at once. For every error that "makes it to the news" there are thousands that don't. This means the same errors are made over and over again before they become "known".

Combining the trial and error process with predetermined (but dynamic, that is, the performance of which are regularly measured and adjusted when necessary) rules for known errors would give the best of both worlds. To me it's just not sufficient, that issues that have been around for hundreds of years under the influence of market forces without having been fixed, might be fixed at some point in the future.

I have another response to this.

I don't know what exactly the errors are or exactly how to solve them. The same is true for everybody else. Policy doesn't derive from hard facts and hard science (because those don't exist within the domains of sociology). When somebody says that they know what is best for society, they're arrogant or confused or both.

I say that I don't know what is best for others because, regarding their unique and close circumstances, I have less information (and less skin in the game) than they do. The policy of letting people have liberty over their lives is fundamentally different than the policy of dictating over them, because the former is saying that I don't know what is best for the world while the latter is saying that I do.

It's certainly preposterous to claim to know the right answers to everything, but the same goes for claiming all answers are unknowable. We know perfectly well the answers to many questions, and not using that knowledge to patch the known errors seems folly. I'm all for maximizing liberties, but that does not extend to actions that affect other people's liberties.

Do you think killing and stealing should be legal?

[wufwugy]

Combining the trial and error process with predetermined (but dynamic, that is, the performance of which are regularly measured and adjusted when necessary) rules for known errors would give the best of both worlds.

Do the predetermined rules have unintended consequences?

To me it's just not sufficient, that issues that have been around for hundreds of years under the influence of market forces without having been fixed, might be fixed at some point in the future.

I wouldn't mind discussing a specific issue you have in mind.

[CoccoBill]

Do the predetermined rules have unintended consequences?

They might, that's why I suggested the rules need to be measured and revised is they don't work as intended.

When dealing with the non-experimental, answers are certainly knowable, yet nobody knows how to know them.

Not sure what you mean by knowing how to know, but anyway it seems like you could support rules in all cases where experimentation can be used?

Killing/stealing what? Who? When? How? Who gets to decide what the parameters are?

Just in general. Sure there are some special cases, but let's just treat them as such.

My view is that "wrong" is the initiation of violence or fraud. Ultimately, a society is made up of a collection of persons who determine some mainstream view of how to regulate what is "wrong". My protest is when initiation of violence is used (tax based monopolies) to regulate. Laws are really, really great stuff, but laws that are funded by initiation of violence are not the kind of laws that I think people would choose if they could freely choose.

That sounds like a yes to me? So what is fundamentally different about rules against these activities, why not let trial and error work its magic here also?

[wufwugy]

They might, that's why I suggested the rules need to be measured and revised is they don't work as intended.

Would a more robust function for trial and error be better for measuring and revising?

Not sure what you mean by knowing how to know, but anyway it seems like you could support rules in all cases where experimentation can be used?

I meant that anything that is outside the domain of some of the hard sciences has too much uncertainty for people to make claims of true knowledge. Can you think of an example of something society related in which there is no reasonable disagreement?

That sounds like a yes to me? So what is fundamentally different about rules against these activities, why not let trial and error work its magic here also?

Trial and error is at play in sub-domains within the domain of tax-based initiation of aggression; it's just not as robust in most (or all) circumstances.

[CoccoBill]

Would a more robust function for trial and error be better for measuring and revising?

I don't know, what is a more robust function for trial and error?

I meant that anything that is outside the domain of some of the hard sciences has too much uncertainty for people to make claims of true knowledge. Can you think of an example of something society related in which there is no reasonable disagreement?

I would say there are plenty of things where there is no reasonable disagreement, such as no consensus among experts. There are a lot of things that are objectively bad imo, regardless of their social acceptance or legal status in some area of the planet. DUI, the death penalty, genital mutilation, discrimination based on gender/race/sexual orientation, answering questions with questions etc.

Trial and error is at play in sub-domains within the domain of tax-based initiation of aggression; it's just not as robust in most (or all) circumstances.

Such as and why not?

[wufwugy]

It's certainly preposterous to claim to know the right answers to everything, but the same goes for claiming all answers are unknowable.

When dealing with the non-experimental, answers are certainly knowable, yet nobody knows how to know them.

We know perfectly well the answers to many questions, and not using that knowledge to patch the known errors seems folly. I'm all for maximizing liberties, but that does not extend to actions that affect other people's liberties.

Do you think killing and stealing should be legal?

Killing/stealing what? Who? When? How? Who gets to decide what the parameters are?

My view is that "wrong" is the initiation of violence or fraud. Ultimately, a society is made up of a collection of persons who determine some mainstream view of how to regulate what is "wrong". My protest is when initiation of violence is used (tax based monopolies) to regulate. Laws are really, really great stuff, but laws that are funded by initiation of violence are not the kind of laws that I think people would choose if they could freely choose.

[Jack Sawyer]

Killing/stealing what? Who? When? How? Who gets to decide what the parameters are?

I'm pretty sure, in this context, CoccoBill refers to killing other people and stealing stuff also from others.

If you kill an ant no one (should) give(s) a shit.

If you take a rock on a beach, no one (should) give(s) a shit either.

The parameters are those of modern civilized society LDO. Post vikings, genghis khan, mayas, django, wild west, etc. In some societies nowadays you steal and you get your hand cut off and that is also something I can't agree with (should you get your hand cut off because you were hungry and desperate and stole someone's loaf of bread? should you get your hand cut off when you stole someone's house(which is what those who administer this law do, yet get away with but that's another story)?), most notable example of this is pre-mohamed bin salman's saudi arabia

[wufwugy]

I'm pretty sure, in this context, CoccoBill refers to killing other people and stealing stuff also from others.

If you kill an ant no one (should) give(s) a shit.

If you take a rock on a beach, no one (should) give(s) a shit either.

The parameters are those of modern civilized society LDO. Post vikings, genghis khan, mayas, django, wild west, etc. In some societies nowadays you steal and you get your hand cut off and that is also something I can't agree with (should you get your hand cut off because you were hungry and desperate and stole someone's loaf of bread? should you get your hand cut off when you stole someone's house(which is what those who administer this law do, yet get away with but that's another story)?), most notable example of this is pre-mohamed bin salman's saudi arabia

What exactly constitutes murder in each circumstance and what exactly constitutes theft in each circumstance? Billions of dollars and countless hours are spent annually on answering these questions.

[wufwugy]

Wouldn't it be preferable to skip some of those errors if we've already identified them?

I have another response to this.

I don't know what exactly the errors are or exactly how to solve them. The same is true for everybody else. Policy doesn't derive from hard facts and hard science (because those don't exist within the domains of sociology). When somebody says that they know what is best for society, they're arrogant or confused or both.

I say that I don't know what is best for others because, regarding their unique and close circumstances, I have less information (and less skin in the game) than they do. The policy of letting people have liberty over their lives is fundamentally different than the policy of dictating over them, because the former is saying that I don't know what is best for the world while the latter is saying that I do.

[MadMojoMonkey]

When somebody says that they know what is best for society, they're arrogant or confused or both.

I agree, but I don't agree.

We both think that a free market is best for society. We both think that maximizing individual freedoms is best for society.
We probably both agree that neither of these is without its flaws and difficulties, but that they are still the best of what's around.

The policy of letting people have liberty over their lives is fundamentally different than the policy of dictating over them, because the former is saying that I don't know what is best for the world while the latter is saying that I do.

Nice.

[oskar]

He didn't create the policy.

Wrong and irrelevant. Not wasting my time on the rest. The policy to separate every single child from their parent is part of Trumps zero tolerance policy. Irrelevant because I'm not a brainwashed cult member who would think that it was ok if Obama did it. You thinking that that would have any influence in how I feel about it speaks volumes about your mindset.

[Poopadoop]

well, there goes the Nobel Prize.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens...roup-1.4724735

[BananaStand]

I have learned that if someone responds with empty generalities, they probably have nothing of value to say.

Wrong and irrelevant. Not wasting my time on the rest.

Check and mate

Irrelevant because I'm not a brainwashed cult member who would think that it was ok if Obama did it. You thinking that that would have any influence in how I feel about it speaks volumes about your mindset

where the fuck did this come from??!!