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  1. #1
    oskar's Avatar
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    The teacher shooting up the classroom thing was hyperbole. And I was meming wuf with the "thoughtful consideration" thing if that wasn't obvious.
    If you would ask me with no prior knowledge what the probability of a negligent discharge by a gun safety instructor during a gun safety demonstration was, I'd put the odds in the millionth percentile. Make that a safety demonstration that is being filmed inside a classroom, I'd say we're approaching an infinitesimal number. Yet there have been a number of these incidents and at least two of them inside a classroom full of minors.

    While that is completely incomprehensible to me, it is happening. Now multiply the number of guns in a chaotic environment like a classroom, add overworked teachers who are so underfunded that they have to pay for school supplies out of pocket, and the fact that even trained police officers occasionally execute toddlers with toy guns, and you got yourself some dead kids. More dead kids than kids saved from other kids... maybe. Still not a solution that sounds effective to me. Especially not when other approaches are glaringly obvious.

    For instance: When a kid is diagnosed by a professional to have a mental disorder/deficiency; who has made terroristic threats in his name on social media; who has been brought to the attention of the authorities - is still able to get his background check passed, buys a semi automatic weapon plus hundreds of rounds of ammunition and then stroll past the armed security officer onto the premise... how do you look at that and go: nothing to worry about here, but we better go and arm teachers because that's the obvious thing to do.
    Last edited by oskar; 03-17-2018 at 06:09 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Now multiply the number of guns in a chaotic environment like a classroom, add overworked teachers who are so underfunded that they have to pay for school supplies out of pocket, and the fact that even trained police officers occasionally execute toddlers with toy guns, and you got yourself some dead kids. More dead kids than kids saved from other kids... maybe. Still not a solution that sounds effective to me. Especially not when other approaches are glaringly obvious.
    This type of thing exists all over the place with concealed carry, and the *fears* don't manifest.
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    While that is completely incomprehensible to me, it is happening. Now multiply the number of guns in a chaotic environment like a classroom, add overworked teachers who are so underfunded that they have to pay for school supplies out of pocket, and the fact that even trained police officers occasionally execute toddlers with toy guns, and you got yourself some dead kids. More dead kids than kids saved from other kids... maybe. Still not a solution that sounds effective to me. Especially not when other approaches are glaringly obvious.
    Explain how it's remotely possible that accidental gun deaths could outnumber purposeful gun deaths. I mean, what the hell man??

    For instance: When a kid is diagnosed by a professional to have a mental disorder/deficiency; who has made terroristic threats in his name on social media; who has been brought to the attention of the authorities - is still able to get his background check passed, buys a semi automatic weapon plus hundreds of rounds of ammunition and then stroll past the armed security officer onto the premise... how do you look at that and go: nothing to worry about here, but we better go and arm teachers because that's the obvious thing to do
    You keep skimming the real target here. Ineptitude. No one wants to admit that because it means that the laws we already have are fine if they are just applied effectively. But if that's the case, we can't "take action" legislatively. That's what the left wants. Legislation against guns and gun owners. Period. That's the game here. It's not about kids. It's not about schools. It's not about mental health. it's not about safety. It's not about body count. Liberals in America HATE HATE HATEY MCHATERSON middle, red, gun owning America. Fin.

    Now the left is using children to further their cause. Their entire philosophy is based on breaking people up into victimized groups, and in this case that victimized group is children. They're being portrayed as disadvantaged and vulnerable. The left is tell you that they have a nearly unanimous opinion on legislative action. And even though very few of them have even begun to understand the complex issue of gun rights, their opinion has been given unquestionable credibility. And to deny their demands, is to oppress them.

    Moral blackmail.

    The right can't just say "let's just do nothing". Even though that is what they want. Deep down in places they can't talk about at fundraisers they all feel that the laws already on the books are adequate. Or if they feel otherwise, it's that the laws are already too restrictive. They know that guns are not the problem. But they're stuck in this precarious state of moral blackmail where they are forced to do *something*.

    What else can they say except "mental health" and "school security"? Mental health is probably the most dangerous of all solutions. I really think psychiatry knows about 2% of what's going on upstairs and the rest is just a guess. The idea that we can use legislation to read a person's thoughts and predict future actions with enough accuracy to satisfy due process and justify denying their rights is probably one of the most oppressive hells I can imagine.

    School security is actually a compelling argument. Controlled points of entry could have saved many lives in Parkland. Some special kind of glass definitely DID save lives at Parkland. Schools could install more secure class room doors. There are lots of things that could be done to make schools safer. The "arming teachers" meme is another construct of the left designed to make you think Republicans are insane.

    Teachers are forced to work in what are effectively soft targets. They are in just as much danger as any kid. It's legal to own and carry a gun in America. Why should the school be allowed to declare "gun free zones" where a gun-owning teacher isn't allowed to exercise his own right to protect himself? No one is talking about drafting teachers, sending them to boot camp, and training them moonlight as soldiers. All anyone is saying is "let teachers have their fucking constitutional rights!!"

    Then if a school has access to an armed teacher, and wants to give that teacher a certain role in its emergency procedures, that's fine! And if that teacher asks for a little more compensation for that service....that's fine too!!
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Explain how it's remotely possible that accidental gun deaths could outnumber purposeful gun deaths.
    Reductio ad bananum.



    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    ...
    Number of people who will read that wall of text - I'm guessing zero.
  5. #5
    oskar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Teachers are forced to work in what are effectively soft targets. They are in just as much danger as any kid. It's legal to own and carry a gun in America. Why should the school be allowed to declare "gun free zones" where a gun-owning teacher isn't allowed to exercise his own right to protect himself? No one is talking about drafting teachers, sending them to boot camp, and training them moonlight as soldiers. All anyone is saying is "let teachers have their fucking constitutional rights!!"
    Concealed carry on someone else's property is not a constitutional right. Same as free speech on someone else's forum is not a constitutional right.
    If gun free zones are soft targets, why are school shootings almost exclusively happening in the US? Those are soft targets in other countries as well. And even countries with comparable gun related deaths don't have their schools targeted.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    If gun free zones are soft targets, why are school shootings almost exclusively happening in the US?
    It's a multi-varied function. But some of the key elements are

    -American families are more fractured
    -American kids are not properly socialized (related to above)
    -The widespread use of psychotropic drugs among children
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    If gun free zones are soft targets, why are school shootings almost exclusively happening in the US?
    Schools are a soft target in the United States. Other countries have many more soft targets all over their domain. This is because of like what we've discussed in the past, that in America wannabe mass murderers are well deterred from going to places where they are likely to be readily stopped. This funnels wannabe mass killers into the small number of soft areas. Many other countries don't have this deterrent, so the killings are more widespread.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 03-17-2018 at 09:15 PM.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Schools are a soft target in the United States. Other countries have many more soft targets all over their domain. This is because of like what we've discussed in the past, that in America wannabe mass murderers are well deterred from going to places where they are likely to be readily stopped. This funnels wannabe mass killers into the small number of soft areas. Many other countries don't have this deterrent, so the killings are more widespread.
    Dunno. Guy in LV managed to find a soft target area that wasn't a school.

    I think there is a large copycat element in the fact mostly schools are being targeted. Just like there was a fad for a while of running over crowds of pedestrians with vehicles. My guess is the thought process goes 'imma kill everybody! where should i go?' and the first thing that pops into their head is 'a school' because they've just watched 7000 news hours of coverage about school shootings. Simple priming effect. If the media didn't go all nonstop 24 hour coverage for days over every school shooting, the crazies would probably just go to the closest crowd they could find and start blasting away. Maybe it's a school, maybe it's a mall, maybe it's a baseball game. It's not as if there isn't a choice of soft targets.#

    Edit: could be wrong though. Maybe they go to schools because that's where they experienced their alienation the most and during their formative years. That could be part of it too.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 03-17-2018 at 09:23 PM.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Dunno. Guy in LV managed to find a soft target area that wasn't a school.
    That he did. Gun free zones aren't the only soft spots.

    my assessment is that when it comes to just the logic of it all, school shootings are a slam dunk on the gun advocacy side. The LV shooting is the opposite. It's closer to a logical slam dunk for the gun adversary side. Which makes it strange why the LV shooting is not the go-to example for gun adversaries. Except it isn't strange since emotion is the more powerful persuader, so the debate always boils down to the emotion-inducing school stuff.

    I think there is a large copycat element in the fact mostly schools are being targeted. Just like there was a fad for a while of running over crowds of pedestrians with vehicles. My guess is the thought process goes 'imma kill everybody! where should i go?' and the first thing that pops into their head is 'a school' because they've just watched 7000 news hours of coverage about school shootings. Simple priming effect. If the media didn't go all nonstop 24 hour coverage for days over every school shooting, the crazies would probably just go to the closest crowd they could find and start blasting away. Maybe it's a school, maybe it's a mall, maybe it's a baseball game.
    I totally agree.

    See we agree on lots of stuff. We agree on this, we agree that the sky is blue, that dogs bark, that Obama is a racist criminal communist. You know, the basics.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post

    See we agree on lots of stuff. We agree on this, we agree that the sky is blue, that dogs bark, that Trump is criminally stupid and a danger to everyone's well-being. You know, the basics.
    Awww, you're so kind.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    That he did. Gun free zones aren't the only soft spots.

    my assessment is that when it comes to just the logic of it all, school shootings are a slam dunk on the gun advocacy side.
    I think a fair number of people reduce school shootings down to "easy gun access = dead kids", and that's why they oppose easy gun access.

    "easy gun access = dead country music fans" is possibly less emotive.
  12. #12
    oskar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Schools are a soft target in the United States. Other countries have many more soft targets all over their domain. This is because of like what we've discussed in the past, that in America wannabe mass murderers are well deterred from going to places where they are likely to be readily stopped. This funnels wannabe mass killers into the small number of soft areas. Many other countries don't have this deterrent, so the killings are more widespread.
    School shootings are not committed by random lunatics. The threat comes from inside. Schools are not attracting these people, they are already there.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    School shootings are not committed by random lunatics. The threat comes from inside. Schools are not attracting these people, they are already there.
    They are attracting them to a degree. I covered this in the excellent cost breakdown from several weeks ago of how wannabe mass murderers change behavior based on perceived costs. This dynamic is the base for why deterrence of anything exists in the first place.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Liberals in America HATE HATE HATEY MCHATERSON middle, red, gun owning America. Fin.
    As an ex card carrying member of the left, I can vouch for this. The right-wing disgusted me. I thought conservatives were all stupid and selfish. And I believed this along with every other card carrying member of the left. And when you're inside that echo chamber, it's the hardest damn thing to realize that you're inside an echo chamber.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Mental health is probably the most dangerous of all solutions. I really think psychiatry knows about 2% of what's going on upstairs and the rest is just a guess.
    Any psychologists who engage in science (instead of scientism) would probably agree. But then they'd be like Jordan Peterson, using Nassim Taleb's "Grandma's wisdom", trying to fix mental health problems with Lindy in mind: bringing back morality and responsibility to a culture that has been shedding them for decades.
  16. #16
    Dunno. There are some fairly big effects of CBT.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263389/

    Doesn't mean therapy is going to stop everyone who potentially could become a mass killer from becoming one, but seems like it has a better chance of prevention than doing nothing.
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    bringing back morality and responsibility to a culture that has been shedding them for decades.
    Seems like an unrelated issue to psychopathy. If someone gets to the point where they feel so alienated they reject societal values and norms, it doesn't seem like it would matter how widespread and high-quality those values and norms are.

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