*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

[OngBonga]

Oh this changes everything. I thought they had tanks and other modern weapons. If they were driving up to Moscow in cars, sure yeah 50k casualties is reasonable.

Maybe if they're making these tanks out of the same stuff they made the 9/11 terrorists' passports out of then they might have a chance of not being completely fucked by an air raid.

There's plenty of examples in history...

So not only are you attempting to use figures from open battlefields with questionable air supremacy to estimate the damage an air raid on a convoy could do where you have total air supremacy, you're also going to compare WWII aircraft with modern anti tank aircraft.

In none of those did they deliver the kinds of casualty rates you guys are presuming Russia could deliver.

None of these were on home soil for the air force in question, either. And none of them were using 2023 technology.

The Russians could be using Soviet-era planes and still have a massive advantage just by using modern bombs and homing systems. I appreciate tanks are also better now than they were in the 1940s, but I'm not sure they're keeping up with the increasing power of bombs, and increasing accuracy from greater altitude.

Maybe I'm wrong and a large convoy of tanks and military trucks under private command is more than capable of being bombed by one of the most feared air forces in the world (one that has kept the Syrian president in power despite Western efforts) without suffering catastrophic losses.

[Poopadoop]

...

So basically your argument is "It's never happened before in history but it could now. And it didn't happen while they were cruising down the Rostov-Voronezh highway for 400 miles, but it could have. And it also could have happened if they drove the other 400 miles from Voronezh to Moscow."

Ok then, I guess I can't argue with that logic.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I'm kinda confused why Russia can't establish air superiority over Ukraine when Russia has 5th generation fighter planes.
I thought those were basically invisible to radar and can hit targets from behind the horizon.

[Poopadoop]

I'm kinda confused why Russia can't establish air superiority over Ukraine when Russia has 5th generation fighter planes.
I thought those were basically invisible to radar and can hit targets from behind the horizon.

Massive corruption means their Army and AF are also corrupted. Money that's supposed to go to supplying spare parts for tanks and planes, fuel, ammo, etc., instead goes into some oligarch's secret bank account. Remember those tanks running out of fuel at the beginning of the war?

Also, UA has basically got the entire West supplying it with whatever it needs. Still, that took time to put in place. On paper at least, if Russia had its shit together when they first attacked, it could have walked over Ukraine.

[MadMojoMonkey]

If not for Putin's apparent loss of face in the public over this, I could entertain a tin foil hat theory that putting one of the world's more ruthless mercenary leaders in Belarus under a false pretense of punishment or exile isn't a terrible psyop to pull off.

But I don't think any intelligence agencies are taking their eyes off of Prigozhyn, so maybe it would be terrible.

[CoccoBill]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...nes-91-borders

Seems like China is finally officially picking a side.

[OngBonga]

There's more to this story. My friend thinks that Wagner basically took $6.2b off USA to "overthrow" Putin and then staged a failed coup. I don't buy it, seems like small change to me in the context of high stakes geopolitics. But there's more to this than what we currently know.

[OngBonga]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...nes-91-borders

Seems like China is finally officially picking a side.

I had to laugh at "We respect the territorial integrity of all countries."

Presumably by "territory" he doesn't include sea.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I had to laugh at "We respect the territorial integrity of all countries."

Presumably by "territory" he doesn't include sea.

... and Taiwan isn't recognized as a country by China.

[OngBonga]

... and Taiwan isn't recognized as a country by China.

It's really not that simple. Taiwan claims sovereignty over all of China just like China claims sovereignty over Taiwan. The Taiwanese government consider themselves the Chinese government in exile. They both wish to reunify China and Taiwan. They both agree that Taiwan is Chinese, they just disagree about who the legal government of China should be.

[OngBonga]

It's never happened before in history but it could now.

What, an air force fucking up a convoy hasn't happened before?

Do you even remember that convoy that descended onto Kyiv? The one that didn't get very far before the Ukrainian air force decided to strafe it relentlessly?

There's probably a good reason why it doesn't happen often. There aren't many people stupid enough to try it in a territory where the enemy has total air supremacy and a large air force. It's the same reason why not many people have their head run over by a train. Russia tried it in Ukraine because they underestimated the Ukrainian air force and overestimated their logistical expertise. The result was one of the largest military convoys in history being rendered utterly impotent. The images were widely distributed around the world.

btw, the tanks in Wagner's convoy aren't rolling along in operational mode with turret pointing ready to fire, they're on the back of pickups. You don't even need anti-tank aircraft.

idk even why you're arguing with me about this. You seem to be arguing that one of the most feared air forces in the world is going to have a hard time taking out a convoy on its own territory. The basis of this view seems to be 1) Russia didn't eliminate them, and 2) Russia didn't take out everyone with one air raid on an open battlefield in Ukraine. Oh and 3) the something about the RAF.

[Poopadoop]

What, an air force fucking up a convoy hasn't happened before?

Do you even remember that convoy that descended onto Kyiv? The one that didn't get very far before the Ukrainian air force decided to strafe it relentlessly?

For someone who doesn't believe in references to history, you're bringing up history. Well, more like making up history. There's lot of reasons that convoy stopped - lack of fuel and other supplies, weather, etc.. It wasn't because they were wiped out by the Ukrainian AF lol.

btw, the tanks in Wagner's convoy aren't rolling along in operational mode with turret pointing ready to fire, they're on the back of pickups. You don't even need anti-tank aircraft.

And yet more aircraft were shot down by the Wagner group than vehicles were destroyed by aircraft. Funny that.

idk even why you're arguing with me about this.

Ikr? It's just seal clubbing at this point.

You seem to be arguing that one of the most feared air forces in the world

The one that lost more planes than it destroyed vehicles? That air force? The one that couldn't even hit a road with their bombs?

1) Russia didn't eliminate them,

They not only didn't eliminate them, they lost a bunch of aircraft trying to attack them.

2) Russia didn't take out everyone with one air raid on an open battlefield in Ukraine.

Reductio ad bananum. I never argued that.

3) the something about the RAF.

RAF in this context = Russian Air Force. Sorry if that confused you.

[Poopadoop]

Next you're going to argue that Russia deliberately threw away a bunch of aircraft to lull Ukraine into a false sense of security. Then Ukraine will advance its army deep into Russian territory and Putin will Stalingrad them.

[Poopadoop]

Oh and where was the vaunted Russian Air Force when Ukraine was allegedly having a field day strafingthat convoy? Your arguments don't even agree with each other.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Wagner using civilian highways to convoy put the Russian AF in a more difficult spot.

If they just fired on every vehicle in the convoy, they'd be targeting Russian civilians.
That forced the 'copters into closer range so they could identify civilians from targets.
Turns out when you're not committing war crimes, you expose yourself to more risk. Who would've guessed?


The high effectiveness of Wagner during this event was (at least in part of not wholly) due to these factors. Wagner could very easily identify their targets, but their targets could not very easily identify them.


Nothing about this story says that the Russian AF couldn't easily wipe out a convoy if they chose to do so. They chose not to in order to avoid a PR disaster over indiscriminately killing their own innocent bystanders.


Y'all have both made good points. There is surely a middle ground where you can agree with each other's better points.

[OngBonga]

And yet more aircraft were shot down by the Wagner group than vehicles were destroyed by aircraft. Funny that.

Yup. This is definitely worthy of note.

You seem to conclude from this that it is therefore easy for a land based convoy to evade an elite air force.

I conclude that Putin was unable or unwilling to properly deploy the air force. If he was able to, this convoy would be history.

[OngBonga]

There is common ground between myself and poop, it's just we both naturally default to an argumentative tone with each other.

I'm surprised that the Russian air force was impotent, and find it hard to believe they weren't technically capable of eliminating the threat with ease. Poop just seems to think they weren't capable. That might be true if their resources are fully committed to Ukraine, but it would be crazy for Putin to leave Russia so vulnerable to internal threats, especially since he is aware of the existence of this Russian mercenary group, and is surely aware of their military capabilities.

Where we disagree is in the assumption that the Russian air force is competent. Last time they were in action before Ukraine was Syria, and they showed themselves to be exceptionally capable. In Ukraine they are up against largely American weapons and defences, so they're not performing as well. But Russia's air force is likely ranked 3rd in the world behind USA and China. They are no mugs, and they are battle hardened.

So I am very surprised that this convoy was allowed to advance with apparent ease, and set their own terms for a tactical retreat.

[Poopadoop]

Last time they were in action before Ukraine was Syria, and they showed themselves to be exceptionally capable.

Saying they were exceptionally capable because they managed to kill a lot goat herder "terrorists," seems a bit of an exaggeration.

[Poopadoop]

There is common ground between myself and poop, it's just we both naturally default to an argumentative tone with each other.

Which is why every discussion between us ends with Mojo Flanders pleading for us to just get along.

We are getting along. This is how we get along.

[OngBonga]

They don't seem very sophisticated if they have to get close enough to get shot down to identify their targets.

We surely don't disagree that they have the technical capabilities to identify targets from high altitude? There was apparently a command plane shot down. Was that flying too low? It shouldn't be, it doesn't drop bombs, it's a flying HQ. Such a plane should be at very high altitude, and you would have less valuable aircraft at lower altitude for surveillance and attack.

So it's not that they lack the sophisticated technology, rather it's that they were tactically inept. How easy do you find that to believe? That a Russian colonel makes such a basic tactical error while an English shit talking stoner thinks "wtf"? The Russians understand chess, they basically hung their queen.

It doesn't really add up to me.

The question is whether they could easily scrape together enough operable planes after a year at war with Ukraine getting their asses shot off, concentrate them, and use them effectively.

It shouldn't take longer for aircraft to fly from Ukraine to Moscow than for a convoy to drive it. If this threat is real, then they have no choice but to immediately redeploy resources from Ukraine to Moscow. The capital is a great deal more important than Ukraine.

So far all they've done is send in one or two choppers at a time, get them blown up, then send in another one or two.

Which is clearly ineffective and a tactical blunder. Obviously Russia can do more than this. Any banana republic in the world could muster up a greater force than that.

Also, a lot of their air force is on paper only.

Well the ones active in Ukraine certainly are not, and they had time to respond. This convoy was days away from Moscow when we were hearing about it.

Saying they were exceptionally capable because they managed to kill a lot goat herder "terrorists," seems a bit of an exaggeration.

Well maybe, but that was still proxy war between Russia and the West. Not on the scale we're currently seeing, but Russia have succeeded in keeping Assad in power, to this day.

[OngBonga]

During the 9/11 attacks, there was that plane that went down not far from the Whitehouse. The official story is that the passengers overwhelmed the terrorists, but back then I was thinking maybe it was shot down and they glossed it over to not cause outrage. Even if that was the case, it was absolutely justified given the context of what was happening that day and I think the public would be able to swallow it.

Same here with Putin, more so with him because he's an iron fist ruler and not subject to democratic pressure.

I just don't see how this convoy was allowed to so publicly advance to Moscow with the whole world watching and Putin negotiates. This is a country where saying "war is bad" on Twitter can get you a jail sentence, where people get folded up in suitcases for badmouthing the leadership.

[Poopadoop]

The official story is that the passengers overwhelmed the terrorists, but back then I was thinking maybe it was shot down

It's not impossible, but you would think there'd be some clue in the wreckage, some kind of evidence of an external object hitting the plane. I guess they could have covered that up too.

[OngBonga]

It's not impossible, but you would think there'd be some clue in the wreckage, some kind of evidence of an external object hitting the plane. I guess they could have covered that up too.

Yeah I mean if the Americans shot down that plane and plan to tell a heartwarming story about patriotic American bravery in the face of certain death, they're going to cover their tracks.

It was the early days of the internet back then. There were all sorts of people making claims that couldn't be verified. I recall reading about a bunch of 9/11 firefighters who had apparently gone on record to say they saw evidence of thermite in the wreckage, and heard a series of timed explosions similar to a controlled demolition. These people are either liars, or are assumed to be liars. So even if a witness claimed he saw the plane being shot down, nobody would believe them except those who want to believe them.

[Poopadoop]

Yeah I mean if the Americans shot down that plane and plan to tell a heartwarming story about patriotic American bravery in the face of certain death, they're going to cover their tracks.

Weren't a bunch of passengers calling their loved ones and telling them they were going to go Rambo the cockpit?

As for the crash, normally these are investigated by the National Transportation Safety Board in the US. This one was as well. So they'd have to be in on the coverup, to the point of falsifying data from the flight data recorder, as well as lying about what brought it down. Again, not impossible they could be coerced into doing that by the FBI or whoever, but seems like a pretty big operation.

Either way, those people were going to die, so even if they did shoot it down, it's not that big a deal in a way.

[Poopadoop]

I recall reading about a bunch of 9/11 firefighters who had apparently gone on record to say they saw evidence of thermite in the wreckage, and heard a series of timed explosions similar to a controlled demolition.

Meh. If you're going to be a conspiracy theorist, there's plenty of better ones out there where the evidence is much stronger that the official stories were fiction. Both Kennedys, MLK, etc..

[OngBonga]

Weren't a bunch of passengers calling their loved ones and telling them they were going to go Rambo the cockpit?

Maybe, maybe not. It's pretty easy to fake such calls so it's inconclusive.

Meh. If you're going to be a conspiracy theorist, there's plenty of better ones out there where the evidence is much stronger that the official stories were fiction. Both Kennedys, MLK, etc..

I was simply pointing out that despite what seemingly reliable people have to say, the official story is always the one that is written in the history books. I could swear blind that I witnessed the plane being shot down and most people would just say I'm a liar, even if I was telling the truth. And it's natural for people to think that, because for all you know I could be lying, and it's more likely than not.

There's a fuck ton of conspiracy theories out there. I dabbled around the time of 9/11 but found most to be irrelevant and somewhat boring in the context of what was happening at the time. 9/11 was so much more important and I still to this day do not believe the official story. I can't tell you what the real story is because I haven't a clue, I just don't believe what they tell me.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I mean... the more people required to be in on the conspiracy, the exponentially less likely it is to be a conspiracy.

If you're talking dozens of people... the odds go way down. Dozens within a single agency, maybe, but spread across a wide range? That's too many mouths to stay closed for too many decades. Maybe it could happen. Prob has happened on this scale a few times, but the more people need to keep quiet, the less statistically likely it is to remain secret.

Get into the range of hundreds of conspirators... like the families of the people who died... the security agencies whose job is to not let things like this happen... the building inspectors, the *rest* of the firefighters, the *rest* of the witnesses...

Maybe a few people saw/heard something that was fucking sus to them. That's fine. They totally believe what they saw, and stand by it. That's fine. Doesn't mean the other witnesses and events that would corroborate that story just don't need to exist.

[OngBonga]

I don't think the 9/11 question stays unanswered forever. It was recorded by many different people. AI will be able to tell us if what happened was possible given the information we're told, and if not, it will be able to tell us how it is possible.

Of course, whoever controls the AI might have an agenda, but there surely comes a day where it's not possible for humans to hide their commands to AI. I doubt that day is in my lifetime, but in 100 years I think it will be resolved.

[OngBonga]

And before poop chimes in suggesting a "scaled down replica" is a crazy idea, I'm not imagining drones being flown into little skyscrapers. I'd like to see a scientific study about how much resistance molten steel and concrete offers the mass above it, and how long a pancake collapse takes once collapse is initiated. Slightly more than fuck all is the official claim.

[Poopadoop]

And before poop chimes in suggesting a "scaled down replica" is a crazy idea

Thanks for the cue.

I don't know if it's a crazy idea or not. Has anyone tried it? If it was a plausible way to test things, you'd think someone would have tried it by now.

I do know there are a lot of engineers who say the towers fell too fast, and especially building 7 which wasn't even hit. I wouldn't be shocked to find out it was a false flag.

As for the 'we'll never know' hypothesis, that was said about JFK too. A few deathbed confessions and released documents later, I think we can be pretty confident it was a coup d'etat. It sure as hell wasn't Oswald acting alone.

The reason 9/11 probably doesn't get the same scrutiny is because it so deftly placed the blame on a foreign entity, and so much of US policy followed from it, that the amount of cognitive dissonance you'd have to overcome to convince the average person it was a false flag is probably close to insurmountable.

[OngBonga]

If you're talking dozens of people... the odds go way down.

It depends who those people are. If those in on the conspiracy have too much to lose by opening their mouth, they're more likely to keep quiet than, say, a civil servant who stumbled upon the conspiracy. And if you're an all-powerful covert political-military agency, which is what you need for a conspiracy on the scale of 9/11, then disappearing people who know too much can have a knock-on effect where others who also know too much don't want to draw attention to themselves. True fear. And the worst thing that can happen is you grow a pair of massive balls, say "fuck it", tell the world, and nobody believes you, you just become a lunatic fringe conspiracy theorist and eventually they'll get you when everyone has forgotten about you.

If I knew Boris sold cocaine to my mate, I'd probably sell that story to the papers, but if I could literally prove that 9/11 was an inside job, I'd be terrified of the information I possess and would be concerned for my family.

[OngBonga]

btw my reason for not believing the official story has very little to do with witness accounts, which are subjective, possibly deliberately misleading, possibly politically biased, and nearly always subject to shock.

It's the speed at which those buildings fell. There's absolutely no doubt about how long it took, the only debate is whether that's possible due to the reasons given. And it is a debate. It has never been proven one way or the other. Nobody has replicated the events of that day, even scaled down, to satisfy those who have concerns. So it remains unanswered, all we can do is share opinions, some more qualified than others, but opinions nonetheless.

[OngBonga]

One more thing... even if we assume those buildings were "pulled" in the context of a controlled demolition, I still think this is an amazing piece of engineering. I would expect mostly concrete dust and chunks to offer more resistance than what was offered. To deliberately pull down a massive skyscraper at nearly freefall speed is fucking ridiculous in its own right.

Let alone it happening when there's a liquid metal and some solid concrete offering some resistance.

[Poopadoop]

I think it's also hard to overestimate the amount of depravity and arrogance that makes up a lot of the US national security establishment. The CIA in particular has proven itself to be filled with "patriots" who think they know what's best for the country and that the ends always justify the means. I wouldn't put much past those nutters.

[Poopadoop]

https://blog.eastmanleather.com/view...ion-northwoods

In 1962, the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, headed by General Lyman Lemnitzer, unanimously proposed state-sponsored acts of terrorism on American soil, against its own citizens.

Well at least they were unanimous in their psychopathy.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I mean... there are federal laws in place which the people who wrote the laws said on the evening news shows that those laws were written to persecute black Americans. Those laws were left on the books... for decades... and no one is making any waves to change them.

Many laws in the US are systematically written to criminalize social behaviors more associated with black communities than white communities. The point of those laws is to make otherwise lesser crimes into felony crimes, which strips the convicted criminal of their right to vote.

The American legal system is designed to persecute non-white cultural vices much harder than white cultural vices in an effort to put more voting power into white American citizens than the population share would grant.


So on the one hand, it's a meme that the US chose to use domestic terrorism that one time in the 60's.
On the other hand, while the visuals have changed, the goals behind those laws have largely not changed.

[OngBonga]

It's all fun and games in Niger. The pro-Western government has been overthrown in a coup, replaced by a pro-Russian junta. Anti-French sentiment is so high in their former African colonies (I use the word "former" generously there) that they'd rather be colonised by Russian mercenaries.

Maybe they don't realise that the Russians are also only interested in Niger resources.

I do find it funny though how the UK is considered the bad guy of the world, especially by pro-remainers, when it comes to colonialism, despite the fact our empire is virtually gone, while France, a major EU country, continue a policy of soft colonialism in Africa. Where does the bulk of their uranium come from for their nuclear power plants? Niger, that's where. Not for much longer. France has an energy crisis coming by the looks of it.

[Poopadoop]

I do find it funny though how the UK is considered the bad guy of the world, especially by pro-remainers, when it comes to colonialism, despite the fact our empire is virtually gone, while France, a major EU country, continue a policy of soft colonialism in Africa.

I don't think people believe British colonialism was really any worse or better than that of other European powers. France and Spain both have bad reputations about colonialism - just as bad as the UK, but in slightly different ways - and the Dutch and Portugese weren't exactly saints either. Even Belgium acted like cunts.

I think it's fair to say that being a colonial power doesn't bring out the best in countries.

The reason it's been a debate in the UK lately is the sheer amount of plunder that sits in British museums. And the snowflake flagshaggers were upset because someone wanted to put a sign up on some sculpture saying it was stolen from such-and-such country. But Spain also did a lot of plundering.

France and Belgium resisted giving up their colonies long after it was clear they didn't want to be colonies anymore, whereas Spain's colonies were mostly too big for them to control and only the UK had the grace to leave before it was kicked out. Not sure how Dutch colonialism ended, I think they just gave up peacefully after WWII.

As for economic colonialism, I'd be shocked if that practice didn't include us somewhere in some way.

[OngBonga]

Meanwhile, Ukraine launches drones at Moscow, breaking a few windows, which Russia calls "terrorism", while at the same time Russia send drones to Kharkiv which causes the partial collapse of a college dorm, which of course isn't terrorism.

The word terrorism has lost all its impact. Now it just means "an attack by an enemy". Russia called Ukraine's attack on the Crimea bridge terrorism too, like a critical bridge supplying troops in an occupied territory isn't a legitimate target.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Nevermind the Russian bombing of civilian infrastructure including churches, schools, hospitals, and busy malls.




Russia boasts to have kidnapped 700,000 Ukrainian children.
This is 10% of Ukraine's ~7 million children.
This is genocide.

But sure... cry about the "terrorism" of the people you attacked and are actively committing genocide upon.

Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:

1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

There are a number of other serious, violent crimes that do not fall under the specific definition of genocide. They include crimes against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and mass killing.

source:
https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-preve...at-is-genocide

[OngBonga]

Well it's not genocide until it's proven. Kidnapping 7 million children seems pointless, and a massive use of resources, so I find that somewhat hard to believe.

But yes there is certainly a massive dose of Russian hypocrisy in their rhetoric.

As for bombing civilian infrastructure, that's going to depend on the circumstances. Let's assume we have a school being used as a makeshift barracks. That makes it a legitimate target. Not saying that's what's happened, but it has to be considered.

[OngBonga]

Colonialism has been happening in various forms since the days of the Egyptians, at least. It's the natural behaviour of a civilised super-intelligent and large population of primates. We're just competing for territory, just like apes do. It's still happening to this day, just in different ways. The USA has colonised most of the world, only it's not the same kind of colonialism as setting up actual colonies and subduing the locals, it's an economic colonialism, exploiting resources by means of financial dependence - debt. Russian colonialism in Africa today is not too dissimilar from modern French colonialism... a military "peacekeeping" force propping up a puppet government while the occupiers exploit resources and labour.

The last remaining stain the British Empire has on the world, as far as I'm aware, is the Chagos Islands, ethnically cleansed by the British and turned into a military outpost, loaned to USA. We can argue about us colonising a remote uninhabited island in the South Atlantic in if you want, but for me the wishes of the population should be the most important factor, seeing as they are descendants of the first settlers of the Falklands, and then there's Gibraltar, which is obviously historically Spanish, but again we have descendants of colonists who are established, so it's not so simple. Morally we're in the wrong, but evicting the population isn't a serious option, nor is forcing them to accept Spanish rule against their wishes, so the status quo is the only solution.

There's not much for us to do to finish off our empire other than acknowledge our human rights abuses in the Chagos Islands, evict the Americans, and return the islands back to the descendants of those who were evicted. That's not gonna happen though, so we'll remain assholes. But not quite on the scale of the French, who are exploiting 100m+ people.

[Poopadoop]

So was Iraq War II not an act of colonialism then?

Also, the idea that it's only the evil French who are engaging in economic colonialism and not us seems extremely implausible (if that's what you're saying). And surprise surprise, look at this.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=2033138

[OngBonga]

Turns out that marching on Moscow with your army will indeed get you defenestrated.

Honestly, if I ever did anything to piss Putin off, I most definitely would not be getting on a plane in Russia.

[oskar]

Damn, Ong got ahead of me.
RIP Prigojin. Died like a dog... A beautiful dog.

[OngBonga]

This could of course be a "save face" job where Wagner guy disappears into the Siberian wilderness for a life of bear hunting and log chopping, and Putin gets to look like the mafia boss you don't fuck with.

All the reports are saying now is "presumed dead" simply because his name was on the passenger list. Wagner have apparently said on Telegram the plane was shot down, without confirming the identity of anyone on board.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Surprising no one.

He lived all of what? 2, 3 months after pulling that stunt.

SMH

[OngBonga]

It does seem fishy to me. You'd have to have absolutely humongous balls to fly around Russia with a sense of impunity after challenging Putin so brazenly.

This came on the same day a senior general was sacked, maybe Prigozhin lost his primary ally in the Kremlin.

[Poopadoop]

It does seem fishy to me. You'd have to have absolutely humongous balls to fly around Russia with a sense of impunity after challenging Putin so brazenly.

This came on the same day a senior general was sacked, maybe Prigozhin lost his primary ally in the Kremlin.

That whole episode was fukcing weird.

Ok, back to watching Trump getting away with treason now.

[oskar]

That whole episode was fukcing weird.

Ok, back to watching Trump getting away with treason now.

He's getting booked in Georgia tomorrow. It's going to be an awesome news day!

[Poopadoop]

He's getting booked in Georgia tomorrow. It's going to be an awesome news day!

They booked Rudy first. Obviously they're working their way up to the Big Dog. Here's his mug shot; he actually looks like a cartoon villain.

https://people.com/rudy-giuliani-mug...-photo-7814212

[oskar]

Also, I am not going to tell Putin what to do, but it looks like he just really pissed off a lot of guys whose main job it is to kill people, which on the face of it looks like a bad idea. If this gets Putin whacked, at least something good came out of the whole Ukraine thing.

[MadMojoMonkey]

It does seem fishy to me. You'd have to have absolutely humongous balls to fly around Russia with a sense of impunity after challenging Putin so brazenly.

This came on the same day a senior general was sacked, maybe Prigozhin lost his primary ally in the Kremlin.

This also came 2 days after the US state department told any US citizens in Belarus to GTFO.

Add that to your conspiracy pile. US intelligence knew something was about to hit the fan, but couldn't say what.

[OngBonga]

This also came 2 days after the US state department told any US citizens in Belarus to GTFO.

Add that to your conspiracy pile. US intelligence knew something was about to hit the fan, but couldn't say what.

Some prominent MI6 dude is claiming they knew weeks ago that a contract had been put on Prigozhin from within the Russian "business community". Of course it's a former head of a secretive government organisation speaking publicly, so take that for what it's worth.

[Poopadoop]

Some prominent MI6 dude is claiming they knew weeks ago that a contract had been put on Prigozhin

That's not intelligence, that's common sense.

[oskar]

He probably got a bit overconfident since he wasn't dead yet. Going back to the neo-colonies was the right move. No idea why he would voluntarily step on a plane to russia.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Gravestones of Wagner's dead are being removed from gravesites, and gravesites of Wagner dead are being cemented over.


... but Prigohyn's plane being "shot down" was an "accident."

[OngBonga]

I'd be surprised if there's a single person on the planet who believes that was an accident.

Whether Putin ordered it is another matter. Prigozhin had many powerful enemies and this would have been a good time to take him out while having it look like Putin did it. So it's not a given that Putin ordered it. But still, probably.

Definitely not an accident though.

[Poopadoop]

Oops. Probably should have checked his record before giving him a standing o.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2418001.html

[OngBonga]

We'll just keeping saying Ukraine doesn't have a problem with Nazi ideology. Someone just didn't do their due diligence, nothing to see here.

I fail to see how such a person can end up in a parliament, being called a "hero" and getting a standing ovation, without the person who invited him there and addressing him with such praise knowing who he actually is.

"Hey guys, check out this hero guy, no idea why he's a hero but let's all give him the respect of parliament". Nah, not buying it.

I certainly believe there were a ton of people applauding him that didn't know his history. It's embarrassing for Canada and others. But it's more than just an embarrassment for Ukraine. It's a problem.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Biggest embarrassment is for whoever actually was involved that got that guy on that stage. One more fucking question was all that was needed.
This Ukrainian-Canadian guy fought in WWII. Should we stand him up as a war hero for an easy PR stunt?
He fought in WWII you say... for which side?

One fucking question.
SMH
lazy



I assume (just guessing) that no one else in the room actually knew who that was aside from what they were told on the spot.

[Poopadoop]

I assume (just guessing) that no one else in the room actually knew who that was aside from what they were told on the spot.

I would hope not.

In my more tinfoil-hat moments, I might suspect this was a plan to undermine support for UA. The war's dragging on now with no end in sight, and more than a few countries are starting to reconsider whether they want to keep sending aid to Ukraine. I think Poland's already said they were going to cut off the tap. So, maybe Trudeau thought "here's a good way to create an excuse for us bailing as well."

Then again, it's probably more likely someone in the civil service just fucked up when they were asked to find a Ukrainian war hero.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Reading ong's reply before the link, I expected someone from Azov got appointed to Ukrainian gov't. Read the link and got an actual WWII Nazi stood up in front of the Canadian gov't. and cheered for.

Pleasantly disappointed I think is my response. My original guess was far more worrisome.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Did Poland say that?
That explains why Biden was kissing Poland's ass so hard the other day. Something like, we're the bestest friends ever and I'm gonna give Poland a bunch of millions of USD dollars to replace their military stuffs 'cause we're besties like that. Like we've always been. Forever.

There's only a vocal minority of US politicians who are against funding the war in Ukraine. Old money politicians in both parties remember the cold war and know how much value we're getting for our money in this. No US lives at risk, and still making Russia look like they are trying to figure out what a war is for the first time in history.

[Poopadoop]

Did Poland say that?

It appears so.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...xports-dispute

[MadMojoMonkey]

It appears so.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...xports-dispute

What an argument. They're drowning and seeking help from anyone, so fuck them.
Nevermind the flood that is drowning them will be on your doorstep if they sink.

WTF.

Putin's Russia is not going to go away if they manage to steal a bunch of land successfully. Fuck, it's not going away if this plan fails. Putin will go away sooner or later, but the political and economic system he inherited and bolstered will not go away.

C'mon Duda. You're talking doodoo.
got 'im

[OngBonga]

It's easy to be critical of Poland but they're not as wealthy as the likes of USA and UK, and they took in the vast majority of Ukrainian refugees, which comes at significant economic cost. And given their Soviet history, you can't blame them for being concerned about Russia to the point they want to increase defence spending.

[OngBonga]

If Russia do decide to invade NATO territory, the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania) will capitulate quickly. That won't even be particularly bloody, save for some brave but futile resistance. Poland is where it gets messy.

It won't happen though. To invade Poland, or the Baltics, is to declare war on NATO. I don't see how Russia can hope to win a war against NATO. All it can do is end the world as we know it if they want to be remembered as the worst regime in history, worse even than the Nazis.

[OngBonga]

Poland is cutting aid because they're spending large amounts of money on defence. Poland knows it is vulnerable due to its geography. I know the days are gone where large armies march across open plains but what we're seeing in Ukraine is a war of attrition, and geography plays an important role even today.

Russia is highly unlikely to invade Poland, due to the fact Poland is a NATO member, but if Russia ever gets to the point where they think "fuck NATO" and go balls deep, Poland is the first to get bogged down in a land war.

Also, that article makes clear that Poland has already donated what it can and this statement is "largely rhetoric", probably intended for Polish people.