*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

[OngBonga]

I mean if I were going to attempt to justify the invasion, I'd point out that Ukraine is a relatively new country occupying land that was once owned by Poland and the Soviets. Maybe if Ukraine don't want to give Crimea and Donbas to Russia, they should give back the west to Poland.

Nah, didn't think so.

Borders change throughout history. We're witnessing it happening right now. Donbas is lost, it's de facto Russian now, just like Crimea. Not our business. We can sit here and judge if we want, but we've waged wars of aggression. We sit back and do nothing while Israel expands its borders at Palestine's expense. Are we really well placed to judge Russia? While I despise war like any person with a conscience, I can understand from a geopolitical pov why this is so important to Russia, just like I can understand from a geopolitical pov why the British and American aren't in any hurry to correct the ethnic cleansing of the Chagos Islands. In order for great powers to project their influence, they need to control the highly strategic islands, capes and archipelagos. A great power becomes great by controlling these places.

The reason we're trying to stop Russia is because we want control of these strategic locations. Crimea in NATO hands would be a game changer for Russia, it would be checkmate. They rely on the Black Sea for a great deal of their trade. If we could blockade Russian ships in the Black Sea, they are finished. You can have all the oil you want, but it's useless if you can't ship it to buyers. It's not that we'd do it, but it's incredible leverage. Russia will no longer be able to challenge the West. Maybe that's not a bad thing, but then again maybe it is. Maybe we need a balance of power, rather than a dominant power. I'm not going to pretend I know which is better.

What I'm also not going to pretend is that this is a matter of morality for the West. It's not. It's a matter of geopolitics. And in that context, I can understand why Russia is doing what it's doing.

That's not the same as taking their side. Anyone who wages a war of aggression is a bad guy. We can only hope these psychopaths have enough restraint to not unleash nuclear, biological and chemical hell on the human race. Can't say I'm all that optimistic right now.

idk, what really irks me is the public reaction to media. I know that sounds like a petty thing to be worried about right now, but if we weren't so fucking gullible as a society, we'd have more control. The majority of people are not psychopaths. But those in power are. It should be the non-psychopath majority that run the world. Why is that not the case? Because the psychopaths are smart, and know how to control the masses with divisive politics and propaganda.

Honestly, I haven't got a fucking clue how the world really works. All I know is it's not how the vast majority of people think it works. For example, I'm almost certain that we're advanced enough to get all of our energy needs from renewable sources, but the psychopaths in charge won't let it happen because oil is such a powerful weapon. Maybe I'm wrong, idk, but it seems likely to me that the kind of people who send kids by the thousands to die in battlefields would rather cling onto their source of income and power than to allow humanity to evolve into something worth cherishing. What we have now isn't, all we really have is hope that one day we'll be a better species than we are now.

I'm not sure we're gonna make it.

That got a bit deep.

[CoccoBill]

I mean if I were going to attempt to justify the invasion, I'd point out that Ukraine is a relatively new country occupying land that was once owned by Poland and the Soviets. Maybe if Ukraine don't want to give Crimea and Donbas to Russia, they should give back the west to Poland.

Both Poland and Ukraine geographically have been contested so many time over the centuries that I'd say it's pretty hard for anyone to call dibs. Slavs have inhabited Poland periodically since 450BC and Ukraine since 600somethingBC. Go back enough, and no country can claim any piece of land their "own", it's always just what current consensus says. Russia has/had no legitimate claim on Crimea or Donbas.

We can sit here and judge if we want, but we've waged wars of aggression. We sit back and do nothing while Israel expands its borders at Palestine's expense. Are we really well placed to judge Russia?

Hm has Canada? I don't recall. Anyhoo, I for one strongly condemn (and have done so for decades) what the Israeli are doing. Stop the whataboutism.

While I despise war like any person with a conscience, I can understand from a geopolitical pov why this is so important to Russia

Oh for sure, Ukraine is strategically, politically ands economically almost a necessity to win. If they start leaning more west and get more prosperous, that's a really bad look for Kremlin (anyone else find it funny how close that sounds to Gremlins?), and Ukraine has massive amounts of minerals, they're the 2nd largest producer of wheat in the world, they used to have all of the major ports in the black sea etc. Plenty of reasons. A NATO threat on Russia's western border probably didn't make top10 even in the most paranoid of Russian minds.

The reason we're trying to stop Russia is because we want control of these strategic locations. Crimea in NATO hands would be a game changer for Russia, it would be checkmate. They rely on the Black Sea for a great deal of their trade. If we could blockade Russian ships in the Black Sea, they are finished. You can have all the oil you want, but it's useless if you can't ship it to buyers. It's not that we'd do it, but it's incredible leverage. Russia will no longer be able to challenge the West. Maybe that's not a bad thing, but then again maybe it is. Maybe we need a balance of power, rather than a dominant power. I'm not going to pretend I know which is better.

What moves exactly have you seen NATO make to achieve these goals?

What I'm also not going to pretend is that this is a matter of morality for the West. It's not. It's a matter of geopolitics. And in that context, I can understand why Russia is doing what it's doing.

IF at the moment Russia invaded, Zelensky had fled, the Ukraine army and people had surrendered and greeted them as liberators, yeah, I could understand it. He gambled stacks and lost. Then again, now after two weeks of bombing civilians, hospitals and maternity clinics, threatening the use of nuclear and chemical weapons, and northkoreaing Russia, my understanding is at a significantly lower level.

Anyone who wages a war of aggression is a bad guy. We can only hope these psychopaths have enough restraint to not unleash nuclear, biological and chemical hell on the human race. Can't say I'm all that optimistic right now.

Yup, agreed.

idk, what really irks me is the public reaction to media. I know that sounds like a petty thing to be worried about right now, but if we weren't so fucking gullible as a society, we'd have more control. The majority of people are not psychopaths. But those in power are. It should be the non-psychopath majority that run the world. Why is that not the case? Because the psychopaths are smart, and know how to control the masses with divisive politics and propaganda.

I try to remain a little less cynical, though it isn't easy. I know for a fact that many if not most people getting into politics mean well. A lot of them actually do care, and aren't or at least don't start off ass complete dicks. However, politics is messy, and power corrupts. Some people get sick of it and drop out, others succumb to it or get drunk on the power they're entrusted with. Politicians aren't a different breed, they're just people. There are things we could do to weed out some of the most outrageous shit and incentivize good behavior, but change isn't easy.

Honestly, I haven't got a fucking clue how the world really works. All I know is it's not how the vast majority of people think it works. For example, I'm almost certain that we're advanced enough to get all of our energy needs from renewable sources, but the psychopaths in charge won't let it happen because oil is such a powerful weapon. Maybe I'm wrong, idk, but it seems likely to me that the kind of people who send kids by the thousands to die in battlefields would rather cling onto their source of income and power than to allow humanity to evolve into something worth cherishing. What we have now isn't, all we really have is hope that one day we'll be a better species than we are now.

People on average are very risk and change averse. Just remember the amount of people that used to say how internet/smart phones/every new technological advancement is stupid and useless, until they can't live without it. Changing things on a societal level is hard, and typically takes a generational change. My grandparents, like most of their generation were totally fucked up by the wars, and I'm maybe the first generation that is starting to get over the trauma. Ukraine and Russia both will be fucked for at least a couple generations due to what's going on. It breaks my heart. I don't know if it's the great filter, but our inability to cooperate and have empathy sure seems like one.

I'm not sure we're gonna make it.

Sad to say but my thoughts exactly, or even if we should.