*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

[OngBonga]

Without these the Nazis probably would have conquered them.

I'm really not sure about this. Russia is nearly impossible to conquer, certainly by land invasion. They just set fire to their own cites and retreat into the countryside, leaving the enemy in the bitter winter with no supplies. I'm sure we helped, but I doubt very much it won the war. This is obviously a matter of debate though, we can never know.

If the choice now is between supporting Ukraine, even though they have some Neo-Nazis in their army, versus letting Putin's Russia overrun them, I'll take the former, and it's not even close.

If we're going to help Nazis win a war by arming them, then we've got no right to sit here and use that word as a negative. And can they even win the war, even with our help? The best I think we can do is help to create a stalemate by keeping them armed. Ukraine are not going to reclaim Crimea, the best they can hope for is a Russian retreat from Ukrainian-controlled regions. That's not a win, it's basically a draw. A win would be for Ukraine to reclaim all of its territory. I don't see that happening unless NATO get involved, which they seem to be very keen to avoid.

So what are we even doing? Just negotiate. Let Russia claim the Russian-speaking provinces in the east. Give them the assurances they need with regards Ukrainian geopolitical neutrality. That probably ends the war right there.

Instead, we're allowing a dispute between Russia and Ukraine destroy the global economy. Is it really worth it? When the morality of the whole issue is questionable from both sides, I'm not sure it is worth it.

[Poopadoop]

I'm really not sure about this. Russia is nearly impossible to conquer, certainly by land invasion. They just set fire to their own cites and retreat into the countryside, leaving the enemy in the bitter winter with no supplies. I'm sure we helped, but I doubt very much it won the war. This is obviously a matter of debate though, we can never know.

Don't think you appreciate how close WWII was. Germany had a very very good army. Don't believe the war movies where one US or UK soldier kills dozens of Nazis without even breaking a sweat. In any fight where the numbers were even, they could beat anyone.

Germany had the USSR on the ropes for two years. Without our aid, if they weren't conquered, they certainly would have been emasculated and powerless to do anything to Germany. Germany could have ended up with a big slice of the USSR, a trade deal guaranteeing them oil supplies, sent all their armies West and we'd have never set foot in mainland Europe after that.

If we're going to help Nazis win a war by arming them,

As you know, we're not only sending arms to the minority of Nazi regiments in the Ukrainian armed forces, we're sending it to the whole country's armed forces, most of whom aren't Nazis.

So what are we even doing? Just negotiate. Let Russia claim the Russian-speaking provinces in the east. Give them the assurances they need with regards Ukrainian geopolitical neutrality. That probably ends the war right there.

Whoa whoa whoa Mujombo. Let Russia gain territory in an aggressive war? You think that's going to encourage Putin to keep the peace? He's just going to see we caved, wait a couple of years, come up with another excuse, and go back and take another chunk out of Ukraine, or maybe the rest of it. Then you'll come on and say we should give him what he wants again so we can have peace. Rinse and repeat.

Instead, we're allowing a dispute between Russia and Ukraine destroy the global economy. Is it really worth it? When the morality of the whole issue is questionable from both sides, I'm not sure it is worth it.

It's not destroying the global economy.

The morality of the issue isn't questioned by anyone but you afaik.

[Poopadoop]

Putin and Lukashenko meet Zelensky on the subway.

Edit: stupid youtube won't share video link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzLtF_PxbYw

[OngBonga]

About the economy... if this continues, it's not just oil and gas that's a global problem. Wheat and potash are an even bigger problem. The longer this goes on, the more likely we are to see famine. Maybe not here in the UK or USA, but in third world countries not allied to Russia.

[MadMojoMonkey]

And yeah. This hit to the global economy is not localized to Russia. We're all taking shots to the left foot in effort to put all our shots together on Russia's right foot. Or something. Get it?

We were making loads of money trading with Russia. They were making loads trading with us. Now no one's making nuffink.
Except China, of course.

China stands to sit pleasantly in the middle of all this and mediate all trade through Russia, getting it's processing fees to boot, I imagine.


My Chinese friend is infuriatingly a bit gloaty about it. She's all, "I mean, hey, it's good for China, so I don't care."
and I'm all, "You know you're a monster, right? Like... the world of suffering caused around this and you're just chill 'cause you'll make a buck?"
And she's, "Haha yeah. Sucks to be you. I bet I can help you get Chinese citizenship if you want."

[CoccoBill]

My Chinese friend is infuriatingly a bit gloaty about it. She's all, "I mean, hey, it's good for China, so I don't care."
and I'm all, "You know you're a monster, right? Like... the world of suffering caused around this and you're just chill 'cause you'll make a buck?"
And she's, "Haha yeah. Sucks to be you. I bet I can help you get Chinese citizenship if you want."

Genuinely human, genuinely relatable and genuinely sad.

[Poopadoop]

Genuinely human, genuinely relatable and genuinely sad.

I lived in America for a year and talking shit to your friends is obligatory. I wouldn't take what she says seriously.

[MadMojoMonkey]

No one should be comfortable with the idea of arming Nazis.

Your proposed alternative to just ignore this and let Ukraine or parts of Ukraine fall to a terrible tyrant who rules with lies and oppression is just untenable. Not simply to me, but to the vast majority of countries.

If you have any other ideas, keep them coming.