*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

[OngBonga]

The point was more like Russia probably murdered more people yesterday, Ukrainian and their own, than you can find examples of the west doing since WW2.

Are we just pretending that Iraq, Afghanistan, and the many other wars didn't happen now?

I don't like any wars, but some are more justifiable than others.

This is true. How do you decide if a war is justifiable? Who do you believe?

Here the list of wars the UK has been involved in since WWII that I consider "justifiable"...

Falklands
Serbia

Let me know what I missed.

Saying "Russia bad" doesn't mean "West good".

Ok, I'm glad you made that clear. But you did argue that you consider Russia to be the bullies and the west to be the bully-stoppers.

[CoccoBill]

Are we just pretending that Iraq, Afghanistan, and the many other wars didn't happen now?

No, we're just trying to stick to relevant topics. Yes, what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan was also bad. But is Ukraine a threat to the safety of the region or its own citizens? Did the West execute civilians in those wars?

This is true. How do you decide if a war is justifiable? Who do you believe?

A war sanctioned by the UN is probably as close to a justifiable one as it comes. I believe the mainstream media, unless there's substantial conflicting evidence from a credible source.

Ok, I'm glad you made that clear. But you did argue that you consider Russia to be the bullies and the west to be the bully-stoppers.

If by the west you mean NATO, then yes, in the interaction between Russia and the NATO, they are trying to be the bully-stoppers, but not very effective ones.

[Poopadoop]

No, we're just trying to stick to relevant topics. Yes, what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan was also bad. But is Ukraine a threat to the safety of the region or its own citizens?

Exactly.

Did the West execute civilians in those wars?

Off topic, but "execute" in the sense of lining them up and shooting them? Not so much. In the sense of indiscriminately killing civilians, yeah I think it's pretty clear that happened. That said, it was despicable then and it's despicable now.

Ong's reductio whataboutismo is a non-argument afaic.

If by the west you mean NATO, then yes, in the interaction between Russia and the NATO, they are trying to be the bully-stoppers, but not very effective ones.

I think NATO is doing about as much as it can without sending its own troops in. Arms and other aid to Ukraine, sanctions on Putin. What else do you think NATO can reasonably do?

[CoccoBill]

Off topic, but "execute" in the sense of lining them up and shooting them? Not so much. In the sense of indiscriminately killing civilians, yeah I think it's pretty clear that happened. That said, it was despicable then and it's despicable now.

Yeah I was careful choosing that exact verb. Civilian casualties always happen, and are never excusable. Drone strikes to targets where civilians are killed are not justified in any way, but there's still a big difference between them and carpet-bombing whole residential districts or lining up civilians on the street with their hands tied and administering headshots. Unless of course Craig disagrees.

I think NATO is doing about as much as it can without sending its own troops in. Arms and other aid to Ukraine, sanctions on Putin. What else do you think NATO can reasonably do?

I'm not so much criticizing them of their actions than of the outcomes, I'm not convinced this is ending anytime soon. A cease fire or a peace deal isn't changing anything either medium to long term, Russia's outlook on the world and their aspirations aren't changing. Germany was humiliated in WW1, which in a large part led to WW2. The difference is after WW2 Germany went through a reckoning, and I would say they are now one of the least likely countries to go full hitler. Russia never had that, they've never reconciled their past, the Stalin purges, the wars, the Soviet era. The propaganda machine and state control there is now comparable with North Korea, anyone with any sense left is either fleeing or detained. There's a large and increasing part of the population, not unlike in the US, who are buying into the propaganda that "west is bad". We should all be worried.

I'm thinking more and more favorably of a no-fly zone over Ukraine, anything less may just be delaying the inevitable escalation.

[OngBonga]

Your moral equivalence between providing and using weapons is lame whataboutism.

Ridiculous. You're basically arguing that if I wanted to kill someone, but not be guilty of murder, I just get someone else to do it for me. Of course, that isn't going to hold up in a court of law, not when it comes to murder. That's why people who hire hitmen get charged with murder, not a specific crime of hiring a hitman.

If we provide weapons to a country that isn't considered rogue, and becomes rogue later, that's different. But an international arms dealer has a moral responsibility to ensure that they are only selling arms to people who intend to use them responsibly... for defence.

[OngBonga]

btw, crying about "whataboutism" basically means "I don't want to talk about how shitty we are, only how shitty they are". You're only interested in judging the enemy. It's the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears.

[Poopadoop]

I'm not so much criticizing them of their actions than of the outcomes, I'm not convinced this is ending anytime soon. A cease fire or a peace deal isn't changing anything either medium to long term, Russia's outlook on the world and their aspirations aren't changing. Germany was humiliated in WW1, which in a large part led to WW2. The difference is after WW2 Germany went through a reckoning, and I would say they are now one of the least likely countries to go full hitler. Russia never had that, they've never reconciled their past, the Stalin purges, the wars, the Soviet era. The propaganda machine and state control there is now comparable with North Korea, anyone with any sense left is either fleeing or detained. There's a large and increasing part of the population, not unlike in the US, who are buying into the propaganda that "west is bad". We should all be worried.

I'm thinking more and more favorably of a no-fly zone over Ukraine, anything less may just be delaying the inevitable escalation.

The best reasonably likely outcome to me, as bad as it seems, would be for it to drag on long enough that Putin gets taken out by his own side.

I think the no fly zone is tantamount to a declaration of war, which might goad him into going nuke. I might feel differently if I were in a neighboring country though.

[MadMojoMonkey]

The images we've seen coming out of Bucha and other towns the Russians occupied and are leaving paint a pretty clear picture, ong. The Russians were exterminating everyone. They were murdering people in the streets who had their hands tied. They weren't there to do anything ... ANYTHING ... positive. They were there to assault and demolish and eliminate everything Ukrainian.

NOT calling it genocide is naive at this point. Maybe "attempted genocide" or "almost, but not quite genocide" or however you want to bend over backwards to draw distinctions between what is happening in Ukraine today and the other beads in the string of genocides that have plagued my lifetime news reports.

I hope I'm wrong. I've seen too many images in the past few days, though. Compared the statements coming out of Bucha over the past weeks to the reality we see evidence of now. Heard the even more extreme reports coming from other cities and towns occupied by Russia still today and ... frankly I quake at it. I'm shook.

If you're not up-to-date on the recent shit that's been found out as Russian forces pull back from assaulting Kiev, well... I kinda wish I was, too. It's totally fucked up in the worst ways, and I'm not sleeping well lately.

The worst is yet to be found out. The realities being uncovered these past days are the harbinger of much worse ongoing still in the East and South of Ukraine.


This is the tip of the iceberg.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Are we just pretending that Iraq, Afghanistan, and the many other wars didn't happen now?

Of course not.

But seriously, friend. Compare other facts in these cases. Compare body counts. Both of the invaders and the invaded. Compare the political motivations - both public and private. Compare the actual events on the ground that happened.

There are similarities. There are stark differences, too.


The whataboutism critique of your position seems apt, frankly.
Your position to quell criticism of the current situation in Ukraine with only comparisons to other similar actions by "the West" while not giving any sense that you are aware of the differences... it's provocative to say the least.
Frankly, it comes across as being a Putin apologist, despite your frequent denials thereof.

I think you are presenting yourself in such a way that it feels like you're excusing or justifying the mass murder of political opponents for personal gain.

Which, let's be clear... that's what Putin is doing. That's what he has done. That's why he's the leader of Russia. Not because of any moral semblance of earning the authority of his constituency. But by killing, coercing, and imprisoning his opposition and seizing authority. His modus operandi, if you like, is well established historically.


But whatever. My editorial on Putin as a person implying I'm better than him aside...


Past atrocities committed by anyone do not excuse current atrocities.

Putin is attempting a genocide of Ukrainian people. The towns Russia occupied and left in the past week are testament to his purpose. He's not trying to liberate anyone. He's not trying to end Nazi values in Ukraine. He's the one bringing Nazi values. Just because the actual Nazis did that on a larger scale doesn't mean what is currently happening is somehow OK.

Just because there are sparse instances of Cities being destroyed by NATO occupation doesn't mean that it was OK then, and it certainly doesn't mean ramping up the scale on previous bad actions is justifiable.