An Open Letter to FTR

[Demiparadigm]

With the increased expansion and activity in the FTR forums, a couple issues have come up, and I have a few questions:

First, what the fuck is NSFW!!!
Seriously, I keep seeing people bitching about how they don't want half naked girls on their screen while at work.
The half naked girls will somehow get them in trouble with their boss. Why, I must ask, is it somehow okay for your company to be paying you to goof off on the internet, but completely UNacceptable if the sites you choose to waste company time on have pictures of attractive women?

WHY must people post hand histories and questions about online poker sites in the Community!!! The Admins have done a great job designing this site such that there are appropriate forums for any type of thing you may want to post.
If you have some comment about what Mike Matusow did in the WSOP,
THAT DOESN'T GO IN COMMUNITY EITHER!!!
...waaahh, but no one ever looks in the other places...waaahh
-MAYBE, just MAYBE... If, (and I understand that may be a big "if")
So... IF people would appropriately use the site, there would be more activity in places like "Poker Etc."
QUIT MAKING 'RILLA MOVE YOUR POST!

What is with all the people who can't read? There is an explanation of what belongs where under each forum title.
Even worse than that, the moderators have gone through the trouble to make announcements at the top of each forum with "Guidelines."
No one reads these guidelines.
Then they are told to read the guidelines, because they are stupid and don't follow them.
Then they argue that they don't like the guidelines and shouldn't have to follow them.
...waaah stupid soft-porn/poker site making me follow their rules its not fair waaaah...
AMAZINGLY, there is even a forum to discuss what you don't like about the forums! It is called "Feedback"
-but no one goes there...so no one posts there...so no one goes there...

Now, I am not normally one to bitch about how n00bs should learn how to use the search function, but I do hate it when someone posts a question that is either answered in one of the stickies or in another post from that same day.
We do NOT need 5 separate posts on what to do now that Party is on its own, or how to play suited connectors preflop.
Most of the most successful posters on this forum have quit posting because they just see the same stupid questions over and over, and it all eventually turns into noise and clutter.

We could make stickies answering the most frequently asked questions, but it wouldn’t matter because no one reads the fucking stickies.

Why is it somehow in the nature of our posters to regurgitate the same over-digested and ultra-distilled ideas? The same things everyone else has written over and over, and now repeated without knowing WHY these ideas exist. “You need at least 20 buy ins to play in that game.” WHY? If you can’t back up your statements, shut the fuck up. Please.

Now, what is with the admins? Does Ttanaka play poker anymore? Has Xianti given up on the forum? Why don’t we have a mid-high stakes limit forum? Eric’s posts have degenerated to “ Please write us a review for the HTML section”
Why are there moderators that haven’t posted in months? Are they dead? They could be rotting in their ergonomic seats staring at a blank computer screen, and we don’t care.
With increased activity and membership on these forums, we have a greater need for moderators, and many of the moderators we have have become lazy and rude. In fact, the blunt rudeness of the mods is overflowing to many of the member’s posts. When people come here for help, they need respectful bluntness, not rude sarcasm. It is as though we have lost the ability to differentiate between the two. If you want to be sarcastic to a poster who has been here a while and will appreciate it, fine. It is not necessary to do the same to the players who come to us for help. As our membership grows, we become more and more like the larger poker forums. Many people originally came here because we were different, we were polite, we answered questions. Let’s not lose track of that.

{Moved to Feedback}

[lolzzz_321]

Yeah I've been a sarcastic cock lately, I will stop. That isn't y I came to FTR.

[Trikflow77]

u want some cheese with that whine?

[Fnord]

These are pretty routine growing pains.

[ttanaka]

First of all, some very good points. I'll address what I can, but I'll need others' help.

With regards to the NSFW, Eric and Xianti are working on the forum mod to hide avatars. We lost it during the last upgrade and, unfortunately, every time we perform an upgrade all our mods have to be re-applied. And sometimes they don't go back in as smoothly. This is being worked on - not that you're complaining about this yourself, but as you pointed out, others are.

I don't know how to help noobs follow directions. I think many read our stickies or guidelines, but many do not. Any suggestions? A FAQ for each forum may be helpful, so then if a thread comes up that's been answered in our FAQ, anyone could just post a link back up to the FAQ, which would effectively shut that thread down and show others where to go.

I do still play poker, although not as much as I used to. Most of my free time is spent working on this site rather than actually playing. But I still play, I still do well when I do, and I plan on playing in the WSOP next year. Xianti has not given up on the forums - he basically took a 3 month vacation which I talked to him about. He's moved and was busy, but has told me he is back on track and totally dedicated to FTR. We'll see if he keeps his word, and if he doesn't, we'll fire him and bring on another forum admin. Eric has never been big on posts - he's our techie - so yeah that's not surprising. Eric has been working on setting up interviews with the pro's that we're interested in.

Xianti is running the forums, so if there are mod's not doing their job, Xianti needs to be aware of it. I believe he's getting on top of things now, but he can always be PM'd.

I agree that the FTR forums was a cool, friendly place to be. I was really proud of that. I was shocked and disappointed when I received an email saying how rude the guys were here and that this person never want to come back to FTR. I hope the regulars and admins can remember where we came from, and how we established ourselves. Maintain the standards that we prided ourselves on. People left 2+2 and came here. I was also shocked at a feud going on between two of our long time members that I just learned about. Where's the fuckin FTR brotherhood?

We are suffering from growing pains. Everyone needs to help. I'm open to suggestions. Maybe we can start with each Mod putting together a FAQ for his section. I think this is a good idea for the forums that don't already have FAQ's.

[Fnord]

I was shocked and disappointed when I received an email saying how rude the guys were here and that this person never want to come back to FTR.

If you try to make everyone happy, no one will be happy in the long run and FTR will become yet another collection of bad beat stories and really screwed up thinking. Hence, there is good cause to be hostile toward horribly flawed thinking. However, this needs to be balanced with good information and an open mind. The posters who interest me the most are winners with a different perspective on the game.

FTR is a great place, but it's not for everyone and I hope you're ok with that. Poker is ruthlessly cruel, most players are losers and any poker community needs to cope with that.

[Xianti]

Thank you, Demi, for this letter.

You've brought up a lot of points that needed to be aired in the open. I've had similar thoughts about the way things have been developing for a while, but seeing you put it in words helps me focus.


And yes. I apologize for my hiatus. I'm back and will get things back on track.

[a500lbgorilla]

So basically, what you're saying is that I need to become an admin? I agree.

-'rilla

[Infamous]

Rilla 4 prez.

[booradly07]

I was shocked and disappointed when I received an email saying how rude the guys were here and that this person never want to come back to FTR.

If you try to make everyone happy, no one will be happy in the long run and FTR will become yet another collection of bad beat stories and really screwed up thinking. Hence, there is good cause to be hostile toward horribly flawed thinking. However, this needs to be balanced with good information and an open mind. The posters who interest me the most are winners with a different perspective on the game.

FTR is a great place, but it's not for everyone and I hope you're ok with that. Poker is ruthlessly cruel, most players are losers and any poker community needs to cope with that.

Fnord sums up what is good about FTR in my opinion. What he said above is generally how he conducts himself as someone who is in a position to influence allot of other people by his actions. He can be a harsh taskmaster but he also offers a grain of poker wisdom to take away and learn from and comes back to ask the questions that really need to be answered. I am not in a position to offer the kind of advice that he can but I stand behind the way he does things 100%.

I don't say all of that to suck up to Fnord but to make a point that backs up what DemiParadigm has brought up. There are allot of people on here that lately seem to be spewing a form of elitism and ego for its own sake without offering any real advice.

I'm all for the fun and games and trash talking but there is a place for it. Theres about 50 other things I'd like to say but I think its best if I just don't say anything more. It sounds like I may not be the only one that has noticed the attitude change lately. If you want to argue with me please send me a PM.

Is my opinion worth anything? Nope...thats why I give it freely.

[vqc]

FTR is my home

IM me at TheGrindHer
if anyone has any problems.

[koolmoe]

Signal-to-noise is a bit low these days, IMO. That isn't helped by playing nice with wrong thinking. Frankly, I'm spending a lot more time at 2+2 these days.

FWIW, I'm more than happy to take a pimp slapping when I post something stupid. No one considers me a great player, and many may disagree with my perspective. Arguing points of view helps clarify things for me, and it makes me more confident at the tables to have thought the issues through.

I humbly submit that the Beginners forum or Micro or Small Stakes forums would be the place to play nice with others.

I really don't want Fnord or Jeff singing Kum Bah Ya with me when I'm asking for 15/30 limit advice.

[Fortune 500]

I don't know.

FTR has definitely developed a more harsh tone of late. I'm kind of thick skinned, so it doesn't bother me. If I do something boneheaded (as I'm prone to do on occasion) I like that people don't mince words. Subtlety gets you no where in poker.

That being said, I don't know that we've crossed the line into rude. How about some examples before we throw out allegations?

As far as the admins go, I don't know. I don't really track it much. I think things are run pretty much satisfactory to my needs. Just my two cents.

[Demiparadigm]

Don't assume from my criticism that I believe there is no place for harshness. Many of my posts could probably be qualified as elitist. I do however state my opinion, explain the basis for that opinion, and hopefully offer useful advice.
It is the rude and sarcastic posts with no content that I think have no place on the forum.
Also, I have a lot of respect for elipsesjeff, who often argues with me, and I don't mind if Triptane posts a link to LMAOnparty.org every once in a while.
The posts that I have the biggest issue with is when a new player asks a legitimate question, and is given a sarcastic, rude and misleading answer.
Content is more important than context, but while the overall context of posts becomes more rude and sarcastic, the content is lacking.

[Trikflow77]

Don't assume from my criticism that I believe there is no place for harshness. Many of my posts could probably be qualified as elitist. I do however state my opinion, explain the basis for that opinion, and hopefully offer useful advice.
It is the rude and sarcastic posts with no content that I think have no place on the forum.
Also, I have a lot of respect for elipsesjeff, who often argues with me, and I don't mind if Triptane posts a link to LMAOnparty.org every once in a while.
The posts that I have the biggest issue with is when a new player asks a legitimate question, and is given a sarcastic, rude and misleading answer.
Content is more important than context, but while the overall context of posts becomes more rude and sarcastic, the content is lacking.

why does the community forum posts have to have much content. I understand the stratagy forums needing and lacking content at times, but i think its ok to have random posts i nthe community forum....with some discretion

[Demiparadigm]

Don't assume from my criticism that I believe there is no place for harshness. Many of my posts could probably be qualified as elitist. I do however state my opinion, explain the basis for that opinion, and hopefully offer useful advice.
It is the rude and sarcastic posts with no content that I think have no place on the forum.
Also, I have a lot of respect for elipsesjeff, who often argues with me, and I don't mind if Triptane posts a link to LMAOnparty.org every once in a while.
The posts that I have the biggest issue with is when a new player asks a legitimate question, and is given a sarcastic, rude and misleading answer.
Content is more important than context, but while the overall context of posts becomes more rude and sarcastic, the content is lacking.

why does the community forum posts have to have much content. I understand the stratagy forums needing and lacking content at times, but i think its ok to have random posts i nthe community forum....with some discretion

I have no problem with content-less posts in the community. That is what it is for. My only complaint above about the community forum is that people use community for posts that would be better placed in "Tales of Poker" or "Poker, etc."

[ilikeaces86]

Hi my name is ilikeaces86 If you need any help must PM me and I will take care of you like I would my own child.(grindher)

[Humphrind]

I was shocked and disappointed when I received an email saying how rude the guys were here and that this person never want to come back to FTR.

If you try to make everyone happy, no one will be happy in the long run and

In my cooking analogies I've made the reference of Budweiser many times.

The national brands of beer seem to have a beer that, "no one hates" but no one really loves. But that is the core of pleasing the most people. If you want to please the most people you cant' have something that everyone loves. The best you can do is have something that 'no one hates'

Quoting Lincoln: "You can't please all the people all the time."

[Demiparadigm]

A FAQ for each forum may be helpful, so then if a thread comes up that's been answered in our FAQ, anyone could just post a link back up to the FAQ, which would effectively shut that thread down and show others where to go.

Linkable FAQ's are a great idea. Especially if people help out and post the links instead of flaming the n00bs.

Xianti is running the forums, so if there are mod's not doing their job, Xianti needs to be aware of it. I believe he's getting on top of things now, but he can always be PM'd.

As I mentioned there are a number of mod's who either haven't posted in quite some time, or rarely browse the forums. A quick search can show this.
Specifically:
Lonnie - hansn't posted since 08June
Gutshot- has made 3 posts since August (busy playing golf)
Corey- Has written just over 50 words in the month of October
johnnyawe- Hasn't posted in his own forum since 06Sept. (though has made 7 posts total in other forums)

We have a number of active, established posters on this forum who would be a great addition to the team of moderators, and some like elipsesjeff who have volunteered to moderate (albeit for a mid-high limit forum that doesn't exist yet.)
We now have thousands of registered users contributing a large amount of posts per day. There is a great need for more moderators who are active members, and who are dedicated to making FTR a better place for everyone.

there is good cause to be hostile toward horribly flawed thinking. However, this needs to be balanced with good information and an open mind.

I agree with this completely. However, it seems often much of the hostility is not explained, and the open mind and good information are missing.

So basically, what you're saying is that I need to become an admin? I agree.

No, though it isn't a bad idea. Promoting 'Rilla and (especially) Fnord to Admin definitely could add a lot during the growth of our forum. This would not, however, address the need for more active moderation.

I'm all for the fun and games and trash talking but there is a place for it. Theres about 50 other things I'd like to say but I think its best if I just don't say anything more. It sounds like I may not be the only one that has noticed the attitude change lately. If you want to argue with me please send me a PM.

I think if anyone has anything to say, or any suggestions on how to improve, this is a great time and forum to bring them to the open.

IM me at TheGrindHer
if anyone has any problems.

Hi my name is ilikeaces86 If you need any help must PM me and I will take care of you like I would my own child.(grindher)

These are great sentiments, but they are reactionary in a time where we need to be proactive.
The last thing we want is players to browse the forum and decide that FTR is not the place for them. Dealing with issues after the fact is necessary, but we must also take measures to help ensure that the issues do not come up in the future.

[Demiparadigm]

Signal-to-noise is a bit low these days, IMO. That isn't helped by playing nice with wrong thinking. Frankly, I'm spending a lot more time at 2+2 these days.

As am I, but that is actually what I would like to avoid, since I originally came here because questions were adressed, not made fun of.

FWIW, I'm more than happy to take a pimp slapping when I post something stupid. No one considers me a great player, and many may disagree with my perspective. Arguing points of view helps clarify things for me, and it makes me more confident at the tables to have thought the issues through.

Again, I have no problem with harshness, or bluntness, but I think we need to cut down on sarcastic, rude posts with no content.

I humbly submit that the Beginners forum or Micro or Small Stakes forums would be the place to play nice with others.

Moreso than the others, yes. But what Fnord said about "flawed thinking" still applies.

I really don't want Fnord or Jeff singing Kum Bah Ya with me when I'm asking for 15/30 limit advice.

I respect Fnord and Jeff a lot, and I enjoy their criticism of my play. This is not the issue.

[vqc]

I am proactive in my OWN forum =).

But What I meant was, if there is a problem in ANOTHER forum that isnt being dealt with, you should contact me, and feel free to contact me.

SHIT I want to be an admin!
I am wayyy +EV for FTR
I mean comon, my PP sn is IModFTR!

[Demiparadigm]

I don't know that we've crossed the line into rude. How about some examples before we throw out allegations?

I have actually avoided bringing up specific examples. They are not too hard to find. Harsh and sarcastic, with no useful content, I equate to being rude, and therefore inappropriate.

Quoting Lincoln: "You can't please all the people all the time."

Yes, but our goal at FTR should be to cater to our regular posters, while still attracting new members.
When we have established members leaving for other forums (e.g. Koolmoe) or just no longer posting (fishstick, toasty, radashack, Gatlin Dan, DavSimon and some others I am sure I missed.)
And we have new members requesting their account closed,
We are accomplishing neither of these two tasks.

{This post has been removed}

[Demiparadigm]

Whether they are interested or not, I nominate the following as potential "Floor managers"

elipsesjeff
JeffreyGB
Rondavu
LeFou
dalecooper
jmontis

There are a number of others that are deserving (and who I get along with better ), though these are the people who come to my mind as both active in our under-moderated forums (SnG and MTT have a great deal of moderator activity) and whose posts are typically content-oriented as opposed to pointless, or unoriginal. Also, I think they would not missapply the added powers and responsibility.

I would also be more than happy to help out if given the chance.

[vqc]

get a damn AIM acct demi!

[arkana]

The problem can only be fixed by having active admins and moderators who try to improve the quality (content, not graphics and mods) of the forum. I myself have been rude on or two occasions and I regret that since I am trying to help people rather than berate them, but I will admit that I have been quite frustrated with FTR due to issues that others have mentioned in this thread. Hopefully we can steer the ship in the right direction again...

[DoGGz]

Honestly I don't post nearly as much as I am on IRC. Banning people who clearly can't follow rules is always a good first step.

I nominate Demi for mod.

[arkana]

Moderators\Admins should warn\inform people via PM who are getting out of line.

[DogOnMySide]

Word! (etc.)

I'm not pretending I'm anything but a semi-newcomer but here's my unasked-for opinion:

FTR > other poker forums because of the pisstaking, rudeness and general sarcasm, backed up by intelligent and knowledgable poker advice.

But as Demi (Paradigm, not Moore) has said - there are good targets and there are not so good targets.

It's all very well throwing "standard" at vqc every time he posts but there have been a couple of posts of late where total 1 or 2 post newbies have been given total nonsense advice by flush-and-above level posters... without <sarcasm> tags or winks or anything... and.... I dunno it's a bit harsh.

If someone chooses to "unregister" (wtf? why not just never come back? loser) because someone was rude then they wouldnt have liked it here anyway so fuck'em.

I totally agree that people need to keep standards up though:
- Converting HH's
- Use the search tool
- Reading FAQ's and Stickies (which could be improved but are already prety comprehensive)

You will always, always get some people who, for example, dive into the NL ring games forum and ask "i have got $50 and i'm thinking of playing SnGs what should i do?" ... just like you'll always get people who lurk for 6 months before posting anything. Its hard to stop this.

Waffle waffle. Rock on.

[vqc]

It's all very well throwing "standard" at vqc every time he posts

roflcone

that made me laugh!

[Irisheyes]

I think FAQ stickies are mucho needed in a lot of the forums. A simple set up like vqc's in the SnG section works wonders I think,

I know I myself have often been about to post a question when a quick look at the FAQ provided me with an instant answer.
On the other hand I'm sure I'm guilty of posting a repeated question in the holdem strategies section because of a lack of a FAQ.

I also think that the search function is difficult to use for searching a forum because of the very specific nature of some of the questions which arise in poker. FAQ Stickies would help this.

I'm sure all the regular/long term posters have memories of posts which they feel are important and very helpfull. Maybe if the mods could create stickies then everyone could dump in links to good topics/posts and it wouldn't be too much trouble for someone to sort through them. Rather then 1 particular mod having to go trawling through the archives.

[a500lbgorilla]

I always liked the idea of being able to have your favorite threads linked to in your profile somehow. So when someone looks at Demis profile, they can see some threads he thought were great.

-'rilla

[dalecooper]

I'll mod something. I'm smart, I'm nice, and goshdarnit, people like me.

[gabe]

dear FTR,
i like you the way you are. i see no problems with you.
thanks,
gabe

[arkana]

I always liked the idea of being able to have your favorite threads linked to in your profile somehow. So when someone looks at Demis profile, they can see some threads he thought were great.

-'rilla

Very good idea

[Irisheyes]

I always liked the idea of being able to have your favorite threads linked to in your profile somehow. So when someone looks at Demis profile, they can see some threads he thought were great.

-'rilla

Rillas profile would contain 6262 links and counting

[™]

And I suppose you demi, are the shining beacon of helpfulness in our otherwise dismal forum? hmm....

Convert your FUCKING POSTS!!!

IF you can't figure out copy/paste, you are a fucking idiot.

Yes this post is really helping someone figure out how to post a correct HH

[Monty9]

Hey all,

It me Monty9 the guy nobody really likes to answer much. LOL

As a noob I think you are all wrong with directing everyone to the stickies and search forums. Most new players want a personal touch to their questions and to feel like they belong. Don't you guys want to grow?

So you have to stoke us alittle , whats wrong with that, remember this was your idea: the so called experts helping the noobs.

Sometimes I get the impression this forum is your own personal chat room and how dare we intrude on that or insult you with our stupid questions.

I myself was handled pretty badly last week to the point of wanting to remove your link from my computer, but for the bad that are here there are the good, patcient helpful one.

IMO for what its worth.

[gabe]

As a noob I think you are all wrong with directing everyone to the stickies and search forums.

i agree, searching for an answer to a particular question can actually be quite difficult, anyway

[thirteen]

NSFW is just common courtesy.

Cruising FTR at work may get me fired, but cruising a site with objectionable material could get you fired and sued for sexual harassment. Plus i bet most companies are pretty lenient with using the internet until they see something objectionable come up. My employment agreement does not condemn casual internet usage, but we have a zero tolerance sexual harassment policy.

In addition, it helps people at home avoid opening objectionable things in front of children and other family members.

So again, i think NSFW is a nice courtesy to others.

I don't care what you do with your avatars so long as I can turn them off.

[trACE]

lol! gawd i wuv woo guys!

[Staresy]

I don't know that we've crossed the line into rude. How about some examples before we throw out allegations?

I have actually avoided bringing up specific examples. They are not too hard to find. Harsh and sarcastic, with no useful content, I equate to being rude, and therefore inappropriate.

Perhaps you should "name and shame", Demi.

I only say that because I read through what you had written and generally agreed with a large degree of it and a lot of what has followed. However, I see myself as someone who isn't necessarily a n00b but I still need help from the more established players. I am pleased to say that I have directly approached a couple of people (who will remain anonymous) and they have very kindly offered to give me a spot of coaching or 1-to-1 guidance on Vent etc. I think that this is true for the majority of FTRers as well.

But I also ask because (a) I know I was quite daunted when I first started posting on here but (b) I am a kind of sensitive guy who, whilst agreeing in principle with what you are saying, is also a little concerned that the criticism is actually directed at people like me who have tried to filter down what I've been told by the established players back to the n00bs.

Now I am not saying that this is actually the case, but it is why I think you should name-and-shame.

just my $0.02

[LeFou]

Whether they are interested or not, I nominate the following as potential "Floor managers"

elipsesjeff
JeffreyGB
Rondavu
LeFou

Seriously, I'm flattered. And I think I have just enough time to take it on if you explain what it means really. Is a "Floor Mgr" just a mod?

[donkbee]

I know I was quite daunted when I first started posting on here

As was I. Coming here and KNOWING that you're terrible at poker is hard because while you want to ask for help, you're afraid to because you don't want to get shot down and you don't want to be embarassed. It's hard knowing that your question is the stupidest question ever, yet you don't know WHY it's stupid ... and you don't want to post it because people are just going to ridicule the question. This isn't how I feel about this forum, but I can understand why other new people might feel this way. When I first started posting, I always worried that someone would tell me how stupid or ridiculous my question was. I have no problem with "that was the most horrible laydown EVER", as long as they tell me why. What some people here don't get is that a lot of people post because they don't understand something, and it's unhelpful to reply, "are you serious??? why are you even asking this question???? AND you posted this in the wrong fucking forum!" Right. Why not tell him WHY you think his question is a bad one? Simply telling him he's retarded doesn't help him much, and it's going to make him stop posting.

I'm new to this forum, I've only been here for a few months, but a few months is a few months. Even after a few months, sometimes I'm hesitant to post a hand history or a question because I'm afraid of the responses I COULD get. Pretty stupid huh? Sometimes I'm even nervous when I see I have a reply. "Someone is gonna tell me I suck ..." Just because I've seen some of the rude responses certain people like to give to those asking for help ... and while they're few and outnumbered by useful responses, I still don't want to be treated that way. Someone posting in this forum shouldn't mind being told that they're terrible at poker, it's just that these comments really should be backed up. And they shouldn't be personally insulting. I love the fact FTR posters are blunt and straight up with you. It helps your game way more than sugar-coating things. But still ... people have to know where to draw the line.

[lolzzz_321]

We are partial to girls.

[jmontis]

that which is obvious, was once obscure. I try to remember this any time i'm talking to or dealing with weaker players.

[dalecooper]

I completely agree with courtiebee. Many of us could stand to be a little nicer to the noobs, even while pointing out that their question has been asked many times before, they need to read the stickies, they need to post in the right forum, etc. etc. etc. This elevated level of rudeness should be reserved for people who are deliberately making a mess of things... most noobs are only guilty of charging ahead blindly and not paying enough attention. Not exactly the crimes of the century.

The truth of it, too, is that a lot of poker discussion (especially where newer players are involved) *is by necessity* going to cover well-covered ground. The same questions come up over and over. Some of those questions don't even have definitive "right" answers, which is why they keep coming up... there are multiple approaches and ways of thinking that may be more or less correct. That are +EV, let's just say. It doesn't hurt us to talk about it again. And if we're sick of it, just don't post... don't pop in and say "This is stupid you effing N00B, get the F off the forums LOL OMG." This ain't Party Poker's chat window; this is supposed to be civilization. Poker civilization, but civilization nonetheless.

For another thing, there are a lot of basic poker concepts that still need to be discussed each time they come up because a lot of us don't know, or might forget, the reasoning behind them. Here's a basic one: you raise with good hands, and you raise most of the hands you want to play in most games. Why? I bet 75% of the players on this forum could tell you that raising is good, but I bet less than a third of those players could give you a complete and compelling explanation for all the benefits conferred upon you by raising. This is illustrated perfectly every time I see a post where someone says "He didn't raise with aces??!?! OMG" or "You should always re-raise with that hand!!! OMG" or "why did you limp there?!?! OMG". See what I'm getting at? The theory behind even the most fundamental poker concepts is actually not that basic, not that fundamental. It bears repeating.

[chardrian]

Ok - I'll get into the fray. I joined this site exactly 6 months ago. At that time I had already been playing poker for over a year and thought I already knew basically everything I needed to know and really didn't understand why I was jsut a break even poker player. I didn't even know what PokerTracker was.

I think I took some major flak from both Fnord and gabe at times for making major donk moves and often my first reaction was to get hostile rather than to actually try and learn to see why they thought it was a donk move... but I also didn't let it stop me from posting hands and getting (and attempting to give) advice.

I am by no means a spectacular player yet, but I'm a hell of a lot better off now than I was 6 months ago. And a year from now... well we shall see but I don't see how my play has regressed because of this site.

This site, like any other public forum has faults - sarcastic responses which provide no information, inane online feuding over petty crap, etc. But if you are willing to look dumb (and folks this is online so you really can't look too dumb), if you are willing to get spanked, and you are willing to really try to improve your own game, this site rocks.

I've tried 2+2 and just don't like the set-up. Pocket5s and its crew of guys who either want their cocks sucked or are a bunch of drooling idiots who are willing to suck cocks annoys me to all ends and provides no helpful advice.

As far as newbies not reading. It really isn't that hard to just not respond or point them to where they should go.

[lolzzz_321]

Pocket5s and its crew of guys who either want their cocks sucked or are a bunch of drooling idiots who are willing to suck cocks annoys me to all ends and provides no helpful advice.

POTD

By:

[Smack29]

NSFW

[Demiparadigm]

And I suppose you demi, are the shining beacon of helpfulness in our otherwise dismal forum? hmm....

Convert your FUCKING POSTS!!!

IF you can't figure out copy/paste, you are a fucking idiot.

Yes this post is really helping someone figure out how to post a correct HH

This is taken completely out of context. Below is a link to the thread.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...389&highlight=
While it may have been out of line (and I am willing to appologize) it was in response to a rude reply to both Zangief and CrunchyNuts polite requests and posted link to the converter.

[EasyT]

I <3 FTR.

This post needs to cause a stir at the top, but nobody needs to harp on anybody in particular.

Admin and Mods should be more free with rebuking a nasty post (poster) when it happens, but MAJOR changes aren't in order. A rude post is a rude post, regardless of whether it comes from a "high card" or a "flush".

FAQs isn't a bad idea...but how hard is it to put your thumb on a thread by simply posting a link to the relevant thread where the topic was previosly discussed at length. I've done it bunches of times.

NO ONE posting in this thread is unhappy with FTR. We love. But there are reasons to be disappointed lately too.

If MODs were more vocal about unhelpful comments, the unhelpful comments would diminish. If nobody gets a hand slapped for a rude post, the rude posts continue.

I understand FTR's goals. But IMO, mods are too focused on nixing other people's links and nixing anything that looks like competition for sign-ups, and not concerned enough about the helpfulness of the links or its members own goals. We don't want spam, obviously. But I've see people get slain for a post with a link...right next to a rude poster who goes unchecked.

EasyT.

[Demiparadigm]

I'll mod something. I'm smart, I'm nice, and goshdarnit, people like me.

I will add dalecooper and jmontis to my list of prospective moderators.

[Demiparadigm]

I nominate Demi for mod.

Thank you!
Does anyone second the nomination?

As my platform I promise to change all my profile locations on other forums to "flopturnriver.com"
I will also do my best to help out new players and maintain the integrity of our family

[Pizzaman]

I <3 FTR.

NO ONE posting in this thread is unhappy with FTR. We love. But there are reasons to be disappointed lately too.

Easy T is right, all who are posting here are doing so because we care about our "home" on the web. While the tone has certainly changed over the last 2 to 3 months or so, it certainly isn't anything that can't be fixed.
Wjhile I know that I don't post a ton around here, I do stop in everyday and try to learn something new. I think there are probably alot of members like me, that do more lurking than posting. I look at situations others have posted, and either relate it to something I did in the past or try to bank it in memory, should it come up in the future, then I will know how to handle it. Sorry, I rambled a little here, but I guess I think that this is a pretty frickin awesome place, and don't want to see it degenerate into a 2+2 forum.
Just my thoughts, for what there worth

[gabe]

I nominate Demi for mod.

Thank you!
Does anyone second the nomination?

As my platform I promise to change all my profile locations on other forums to "flopturnriver.com"
I will also do my best to help out new players and maintain the integrity of our family

so all of this was just a ploy to become a mod?

[™]

I nominate Demi for mod.

Thank you!
Does anyone second the nomination?

As my platform I promise to change all my profile locations on other forums to "flopturnriver.com"
I will also do my best to help out new players and maintain the integrity of our family

so all of this was just a ploy to become a mod?

seemingly

{This post has been removed}

[DogOnMySide]

Please don't let this degenerate into a hustings for new moderators and admins. Its embarrassing.

The FTR powers that be will surely decide that sort of stuff.





That said, Rondavu is my choice too. He be one helpful mofo.

[eeeee]

In fact, the blunt rudeness of the mods is overflowing to many of the member’s posts. When people come here for help, they need respectful bluntness, not rude sarcasm. It is as though we have lost the ability to differentiate between the two. If you want to be sarcastic to a poster who has been here a while and will appreciate it, fine. It is not necessary to do the same to the players who come to us for help. As our membership grows, we become more and more like the larger poker forums. Many people originally came here because we were different, we were polite, we answered questions. Let’s not lose track of that.

Werd.

Let me add my 4 cents, please.

• If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all (to anyone with less than 40 posts.)
  If you are a noob and are looking for help, please come to my forum, friendlypoker.net, so you can start polluting my forum 6 months from now.
  I cracks me up that some of those FTR bungholes (whom I love) are so territorial (read mean, sarcastic, attacking -- you ever see the chicken at the bottom of the pecking order?) about a site that doesn't belong to them. I also wonder why anyone is helpful at all, ever, when it is so much fun to go to the Mall (FTR) and make fun of the handicapped.
  We've added 9 new categories for people to ignore, so that some complainers wouldn't have to wade through an extra 30 posts a day that might not pertain to their preferred limits. That makes it much harder for a noob to choose the right category, and allows other sections to languish.
  I don't know crap about poker, so I check the beginner section to help out others with regurgitated information I gained from posters that aren't here anymore, so that the noobs will stick around long enough to sign at a poker room under FTR. Is this weird to you, too?
  It cracks me up that I have a few hundred posts, but when I show up to the Gauntlet, someone says "who's that?". Could it be because I don't post pix of half naked women and have 432 more posts in the Community that say, "DUDE! F'n A!!!!!!!!111! uhhhhahahhaha, he said 'Lay' [/Beavis]".
  You know how it is easier for a noob to post a question rather than wade through the search area? Sometimes it is easier to just answer the question than wade through the search area looking for a link to post for the noob.
  So if this is the 'normal' growth cycle of a forum, are you content with that?

[gabe]

im still trying to figure out which mods have been rude

[a500lbgorilla]

Yeah I've been a sarcastic cock lately, I will stop. That isn't y I came to FTR.

Everyone s sarcastic cock.

-'rilla

[a500lbgorilla]

Sometimes I'm too rude, sometimes I'm just too adorable. My mood swings high and low so I have had to apologize for some pretty bad posts from time to time. But everyone's allowed to be grumpy.

-'rilla

[EricE]

I always liked the idea of being able to have your favorite threads linked to in your profile somehow. So when someone looks at Demis profile, they can see some threads he thought were great.

-'rilla

I love this idea. You couldn’t really put it in their sig or along the avatar but you could put a link to their personal list next to the avatar along with a list count like 5 if they had 5 links. There are players that I really respect and this would be a way of gaining additional knowledge from posters you respect.


I see this kind of thing happen in maturing forums all the time. The regulars tire of answering the same questions time and again so they stop posting. Then questions don’t get answered and people go elsewhere if new people don’t pick up the task. What people need to remember is that a stickied FAQ can only go about half way to solving that. Poker is very situational. (the old phrase…”it depends” comes to mind) One could be extremely thorough in a FAQ to explain the situation and such but a newbie is not going to understand all the implications of those situations. So he may read it and think he understands but the reality is he only understands about half of what was presented because he is a newbie. We all know that poker knowledge comes in levels. You have to get past one level before you can reach for the next. This is just not something that cannot be covered by a FAQ. This is why the question really must be asked instead of trying to gain it from a FAQ. When they ask the question people come back with “So what were the stack sizes?”, “What position were you in?”, etc…and they begin to learn that somehow, these answers change the situation.

[jmontis]

i think the only real rude thing i've said to a new poster was a guy who came on and insulted all of us like we were elitists, when he just couldn't take a little sarcastic humor.

[biondino]

I think high profile posters/mods should avoid having a personal feud on the boards (even though it was actually kinda informative, this hypothetical scrap that I'm talking about) - when you have 4,000 members there simply has to be a level of professionalism even if in reality you're providing time and effort for no reward.

I am (was, rather, in my last job) a professional moderator - I got paid for this sort of thing - so if I can help at all I'd love to.

I also think it's important the powers that be don't mix up people who are fantastic posters with people who'd make great mods. (quick edit - I am not referring to anyone specific with this comment)

Sorry if this has been presumptuous from a relative newcomer and a definite poker amateur. I've seen the development, plateaux and collapses of a number of online communities and the best way to make sure FTR doesn't follow such patterns is to make the running of the site as focused and professional as possible.

Apologies for many of my posts bringing down the reputation of FTR.

[bigred]

Apologies for ALL of my posts bringing down the reputation of FTR.

[Fnord]

Apologies for ALL of my posts bringing down the reputation of FTR.

That's unfair.

[DoGGz]

Apologies for ALL of my posts bringing down the reputation of FTR.

rofl

[Muxy]

roffle

[Xianti]

I've seen the development, plateaux and collapses of a number of online communities...

I've also witnessed it firsthand myself at another (non-poker) forum.

...the best way to make sure FTR doesn't follow such patterns is to make the running of the site as focused and professional as possible.

I agree completely.

I am absorbing everything you guys are posting here and sincerely appreciate all your feedback. I will not let this place degenerate into a wasteland of bad attitudes and bickering. Please keep your thoughts coming.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

The way I see it, the problems with FTR are within the community itself, and not so much in it's functionality. Things such as the NSFW issue will be resolved in time. Eric, Ttanaka, Xianti and others have shown a tremendous effort in listening to suggestions, giving them sincere consideration, and implementing changes if appropriate. They can do little to change the actual content of the forums though. Each and every member has to accept resposibilty for that.

The best way to bring about a change in my opinion is to start with ourselves. Will adding more stickies really make FTR a better place, or are they just a way for us to avoid having to actually respond to a new member's question. You can make an argument for either side and their will be some truth in both. Suggestions are great, but ultimately we cannot decide if they'll be incorporated. Luckily we have good people running this site to make those decions for us.

We can choose to answer or not answer questions though. We can also choose the manner in which we do so. If people see posts of us bickering, what impression will they get? That the people at FTR are rude and abrasive. If we ignore people's posts or give impersonal answer, what impression will they get? That the people at FTR are elitist and consider those posts unintelligent.

Take some personal responsibility. Great! You acknowledged you were rude and admitted it was wrong. How about you do something about it rather continue what you're doing and give the same lame apology the next time the issue comes up? These concerns are nothing new. They have been brought up in one form or another in the past. We all get in a huddle and promise we'll change for the better, but then we eventually revert back to our prior ways. It's nothing unique to FTR, it's human nature. You either have to continue to make an effort or be willing to accept things as being the way they are.

Even with a rudimentary understanding of group dynamics you should know that individuals feed off of the behavior of others. If you don't like certain aspects then make an effort to change and you'll soon notice that others will begin to follow suit. The tone of the community is set by those that comprise it. You can add this feature or change that feature, but it really won't do much if anything to change it.

You get what you put in.

[Hogimacaca]

With the increased expansion and activity in the FTR forums, a couple issues have come up, and I have a few questions:

First, what the fuck is NSFW!!!
Seriously, I keep seeing people bitching about how they don't want half naked girls on their screen while at work.
The half naked girls will somehow get them in trouble with their boss. Why, I must ask, is it somehow okay for your company to be paying you to goof off on the internet, but completely UNacceptable if the sites you choose to waste company time on have pictures of attractive women?

WHY must people post hand histories and questions about online poker sites in the Community!!! The Admins have done a great job designing this site such that there are appropriate forums for any type of thing you may want to post.
If you have some comment about what Mike Matusow did in the WSOP,
THAT DOESN'T GO IN COMMUNITY EITHER!!!
...waaahh, but no one ever looks in the other places...waaahh
-MAYBE, just MAYBE... If, (and I understand that may be a big "if")
So... IF people would appropriately use the site, there would be more activity in places like "Poker Etc."
QUIT MAKING 'RILLA MOVE YOUR POST!

What is with all the people who can't read? There is an explanation of what belongs where under each forum title.
Even worse than that, the moderators have gone through the trouble to make announcements at the top of each forum with "Guidelines."
No one reads these guidelines.
Then they are told to read the guidelines, because they are stupid and don't follow them.
Then they argue that they don't like the guidelines and shouldn't have to follow them.
...waaah stupid soft-porn/poker site making me follow their rules its not fair waaaah...
AMAZINGLY, there is even a forum to discuss what you don't like about the forums! It is called "Feedback"
-but no one goes there...so no one posts there...so no one goes there...

Now, I am not normally one to bitch about how n00bs should learn how to use the search function, but I do hate it when someone posts a question that is either answered in one of the stickies or in another post from that same day.
We do NOT need 5 separate posts on what to do now that Party is on its own, or how to play suited connectors preflop.
Most of the most successful posters on this forum have quit posting because they just see the same stupid questions over and over, and it all eventually turns into noise and clutter.

We could make stickies answering the most frequently asked questions, but it wouldn’t matter because no one reads the fucking stickies.

Why is it somehow in the nature of our posters to regurgitate the same over-digested and ultra-distilled ideas? The same things everyone else has written over and over, and now repeated without knowing WHY these ideas exist. “You need at least 20 buy ins to play in that game.” WHY? If you can’t back up your statements, shut the fuck up. Please.

Now, what is with the admins? Does Ttanaka play poker anymore? Has Xianti given up on the forum? Why don’t we have a mid-high stakes limit forum? Eric’s posts have degenerated to “ Please write us a review for the HTML section”
Why are there moderators that haven’t posted in months? Are they dead? They could be rotting in their ergonomic seats staring at a blank computer screen, and we don’t care.
With increased activity and membership on these forums, we have a greater need for moderators, and many of the moderators we have have become lazy and rude. In fact, the blunt rudeness of the mods is overflowing to many of the member’s posts. When people come here for help, they need respectful bluntness, not rude sarcasm. It is as though we have lost the ability to differentiate between the two. If you want to be sarcastic to a poster who has been here a while and will appreciate it, fine. It is not necessary to do the same to the players who come to us for help. As our membership grows, we become more and more like the larger poker forums. Many people originally came here because we were different, we were polite, we answered questions. Let’s not lose track of that.

{Moved to Feedback}

quit your bitching. i can undertand the whole being nice thing but the rest of your post is just bitching. get over it fag.

[Demiparadigm]

quit your bitching. i can undertand the whole being nice thing but the rest of your post is just bitching. get over it fag.

How ironic.