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  1. #1

    Default Persuasion

    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    This just in: Trump is more charismatic than his rivals, and that counts for a whole lot. Red pill/game blogs have been writing about this since before Scott Adams was (if you'd like further reading).
    I was just thinking that I would.

    I'm considering buying Adams' How to Fail. I would probably prefer online sources for stuff though, as I tend to read blogs far more often than full length prose.

    Persuasion has typically been a topic I've avoided, perhaps because I dislike the implications of the concept. My feeling is probably twofold: first, I feel that if somebody can be intellectually persuaded by a non-intellectual presentation, then it implies intellectual weakness. Second, I have a fear that using persuasion tactics turns people into things I don't want to be. An illustration of this is in how most people view Donald Trump. He seems totally vapid. He gets asked questions where some are looking for substantive answers, and he just keeps saying "Build a wall! China is killing us!" And I'm left thinking "Is this a legitimately stupid person?". This goes beyond the idea that he's just staying on message and instead into the territory where it looks like the depth of his intellect is tween girl cranky grandfather dudebro.

    When I step back a little bit, I get a suspicion that his behavior may only be a front, and that perhaps he's not like that in personable or intellectual situations. But my fear is that persuasion tactics are so close to falsehoods that engagement in them enough can turn a person into somebody who believes falsehoods. If to be charismatic like Trump, you have to be a clown all the time, don't sign me up.

    Anyways, I'm open to learning about this stuff. I've identified a handful of habits I have that bring worse results than I would like, and they're all things that are said to be affected by persuasion tactics.
  2. #2
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Start here: http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psyc.../dp/006124189X

    It's basically a book that's just one study after another that illustrates the study and how its lessons can be used directly.
  3. #3
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    Persuasion isn't about tricking someone, it's about presenting an argument in the best possible way.
  4. #4
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    Meh that's not strictly true, it's about understanding how to make people do what you want them to do. That is sometimes explaining things clearly and sometimes subtly manipulating them.
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  5. #5
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    Actually I can do better. It's about ensuring someone is in a position to be open to an idea and then positioning the idea in a way that seeks to utilise that opening.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Start here: http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Psyc.../dp/006124189X

    It's basically a book that's just one study after another that illustrates the study and how its lessons can be used directly.
    I have "Influence: Science and Practice" (not sure of the differences between these two versions by the same author) and the content is fantastic. The concepts are fundamental and should be known by anyone that wants to avoid being unknowingly manipulated.

    Charlie Munger (Warren Buffett's second-in-command for the last 50 years) liked the book so much that he gave Cialdini some shares of Berkshire Hathaway as a gift after reading it, and bought extra copies of the book to give away to friends and family.
  7. #7
    my uni has influence: scince and practice, but checked out for long time.

    im probably going to amazon just one book. is that one diff/better than psychology of persuasion?
  8. #8
    I was curious about the same thing. If the other one had more/different content, I would probably buy it. But according to his own site http://www.influenceatwork.com/faqs/ --

    What’s the difference between Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion and Influence: Science and Practice?
    A: Although both books are based on Dr. Cialdini’s years of research into the Six Principles of Influence, Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion is an older edition.
  9. #9
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    Meh that's not strictly true, it's about understanding how to make people do what you want them to do. That is sometimes explaining things clearly and sometimes subtly manipulating them.
    Is that not the best possible way?
  10. #10
    I wonder if y'all not being a little euphemistic. What Trump does is only partly subtle manipulation. Loads of his shit is just straight up not telling the truth and obfuscation. I use him as an example since he's supposedly a paradigm for persuasion tactics.
  11. #11
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    Most of what you see are advertising tricks. That's not persuasion tho, it's marketing. Tricks like anchoring and such help you sell a product...but only in so far as you want the product. Itll make you choose coke over pepsi, for example.

    But no amount of anchoring, or other tricks, will persuade. Think of someone selling you that the earth is 6000 years old.

    Persuasion is the art of making your argument the best it can be, so that people who already share your view will go along with it. That sounds weird, but it's true. Argue all you can, I'll never buy into the world being 6000 yrs old. Even if you present evidence that it's the case, that won't inspire someone to agree with you...tho it may inspire them to do research and come to their own conclusion.

    This is why trials, in the majority view, are considered a waste of time. Ppls minds are already made up before you present a single piece of evidence. All you're doing at trial, is giving ppl the ammo to argue what they already believe.

    Alot of what they believe tho, comes down to likeability.
  12. #12
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    I should add, a lot of what makes Trump so successful here isnt anchoring etc, it's branding.
  13. #13
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    Influence is an absolutely mandatory read for adults.
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  14. #14
    All right geniuses, so Trump had a meltdown today where he constantly misspelled easy words (choker-->chocker, honor-->honer). Is he some grand wizard of communication or a legit stupid and/or person with stress/anger problems?
  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    All right geniuses, so Trump had a meltdown today where he constantly misspelled easy words (choker-->chocker, honor-->honer). Is he some grand wizard of communication or a legit stupid and/or person with stress/anger problems?
    [really not trolling this time]

    Do you think it's a coincidence that all of these tweets happened one after another in a short period of time? When he's never had this "problem" before on this scale? Put your thinking hat on. It's pretty obvious it was intentional.

    While that was pretty clearly intentional (and has him all over the news again as per his strategy for the past nine months), he also unintentionally provoked Rubio into looking like a real live dumbfuck with this: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2...C-H-O-K-E-R-Um

    [/really not trolling this time]

    Also, this belongs in the election thread with the rest of your blog.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 02-26-2016 at 04:42 PM.
  16. #16
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    What were the tweets?

    Even if he made the tweet errors in frustration, he's still more than able to shake it off. He knows how to move in the public eye off-script. Rubio is the exact opposite - no movement or awareness. He's a joke of a candidate.

    It's hard to know what page he's on, so I'm partial to just thinking that he's built this way and people are mistaking it for genius. He just genuinely shits on people or builds them up while building himself taller and people see charisma in it, while it's really just a well-worn schtick.

    I used to hear it all the time on the radio, "XYZ is a fanatical leftwing lunatic" or "this guy is an incredible life long friend who I really respect as one of the best out there." Everyone would be either terrible or great. I saw Trump do this with Christie today - friends for years, spectacular governor. Of course, he spoke differently about the same Christie when he was in the race a few weeks back, claiming Christie made NJ worst state in the nation and ruined himself with the bridgegate scandal, I remember.

    I think just that schtick alone plus all the validation of having his name and always coming from money and having money has made someone who has complete self-assured-confidence and real feel for how to pivot people's opinions around that and I don't see much more depth to it other than 'build it up bigger or blow it up louder.'
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  17. #17
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    Which is also to say, whatever he's doing, it works.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    It's hard to know what page he's on
    Google "Trump spelling" without the quotes and you'll see the series of them. It's so ridiculously obvious (and funny).
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    [really not trolling this time]

    Do you think it's a coincidence that all of these tweets happened one after another in a short period of time? When he's never had this "problem" before on this scale? Put your thinking hat on. It's pretty obvious it was intentional.

    While that was pretty clearly intentional (and has him all over the news again as per his strategy for the past nine months), he also unintentionally provoked Rubio into looking like a real live dumbfuck with this: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2...C-H-O-K-E-R-Um

    [/really not trolling this time]

    Also, this belongs in the election thread with the rest of your blog.
    My first thought was that he did it intentionally. The idea being that a bunch of misspelled crazy tweets would take all the attention off his bad debate. Just wanted to know if that was a legitimate idea or if I was looking too deeply into it.
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    It's hard to know what page he's on, so I'm partial to just thinking that he's built this way and people are mistaking it for genius.
    I'm thinking it's that he's built that way and he has investigated/developed techniques deliberately.

    I don't think I could do what he does intentionally. The world needs fewer cunts.
  21. #21
    Wuf, with regards to your hesitant approach to studying this subject: I've been paging through How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie and without exception everyone who notices the book and talks to me about it thinks it's some sort of nefarious tome that outlines the dark art of mind control. I think this is an understandable reaction-- there's something about certain skills, particularly social skills which are thought to be "natural" or innate that causes alarm bells to go off when they're studied in a systematic way.

    The reaction, while understandable, is without warrant. If a thirty year old, having never been on a boat in her life, wanted to learn to sail, no one would find it odd that she pull books on the topic from the library, enroll in classes, etc. However, should this same person have had the misfortune of not being socialized in a way that granted them "innate" charisma, they must be some sort of sociopath on the road to cult leader to approach the topic of persuasion by way of similar resources and with the same diligence.

    While the "nerd" archetype has come a long way in gaining acceptance in the mainstream, there's still a weird double standard when it comes to self improvement-- it's acceptable for "jocks" to acquire nerd skill sets, but off putting for "nerds" to do with inverse.
    Last edited by boost; 03-06-2016 at 02:34 PM.
  22. #22
    Thanks for the response. I'll probably get a few of these books after the semester.

    To be clear, I'm not against persuasion per se (I already use some methods that come natural to me). What I don't like is falsification. When somebody like Trump is propped up as a master of standard persuasion techniques, I'm left making the connection that the techniques he uses are pretty much all about lying.
  23. #23
    Well, I know upthread people were setting or referencing specific definitions for persuasion and various words that are commonly thought of as synonyms, but I'd say, in respect to the way people are calling Trump masterful-- it's like calling someone a martial arts master. Well, what happens when you put a masterful boxer in the octagon with a masterful MMA fighter and MMA ref? And vice versa? Trump is so proficient at certain aspects of persuasion (those of which when used seem off-putting to you), that he can be considered a master of persuasion, but that doesn't mean that he embodies all aspects of persuasive expression.
  24. #24
    That makes sense. I like that.
  25. #25
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    so, what did you think of Influence?
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  26. #26
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    Influence talks about tricking birds into nursing rocks and American POWs being persuaded during Chinese internment to support communism and reject capitalism - not just in words, but in genuine belief (some of them chose to stay in China after the war).

    I continue to endorse this book first for anyone looking for some good nonfiction to read.
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  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I continue to endorse this book first for anyone looking for some good nonfiction to read.
    This book and "Thinking, Fast and Slow" are my top two recommendations to people nowadays.
  28. #28
    I'm a few chapters deep into Influence. I have several other books I will devour before fall semester begins. My goal is to develop persuasive technique. I decided to not include Thinking, Fast and Slow because I suspect that after Influence, I'll be better off tackling more application material.

    Why should I read Thinking, Fast and Slow?
  29. #29
    Forums or subreddits devoted to this stuff would be nice, if anybody knows of any. I'm not sure if r/theredpill or r/seduction are what I'm looking for. I'm looking for discussion including every element of every type of relationships, and how to read the situations and people and how to deliver the most persuasive actions.

    My initial reluctance for the topic is no longer, probably due to reading Influence. Persuasion works because it makes people feel good. Making people feel good is good.
  30. #30
    What happened to Spoon?
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Why should I read Thinking, Fast and Slow?
    Because I'm in the process of reading it (~50 pages in).

    It's interesting. Some of the points mentioned I've seen before but it's good to get them in more detail. I've found that after reading certain parts it can be helpful to stop and make some notes about application.

    A good tip that I got elsewhere but is an application of what's written in the book is that if you're ever writing something and you need to proof read it you'll know from experience it's hard to do and you're likely to miss lots of things compared to if you were reading someone else's work. A way to combat this is by changing the font (both style and size) to something that is much harder to read.
    Last edited by Savy; 08-13-2016 at 06:54 PM.
  32. #32
    Good points. I think I'll probably put that one to the back of the list.
  33. #33
    The main premise in Thinking, Fast and Slow is that people's brains have design flaws that cause all kinds of mistakes, many of which can be (and are) exploited. Those design flaws cause things like risk aversion, starting overly optimistic ventures, buying lottery tickets, being susceptible to influence from framing decisions, anchoring, etc.

    A significant portion of the book describes how our brains fail to intuitively grasp probabilistic concepts, which I found pretty fascinating given my interest in poker.
  34. #34
    Have you tried the one Boost mentioned earlier, The Original book by Dale Carnegie (1888-1955) How to Win Friends and Influence People first published in 1936?
    It should be out of copyright by now, but you still might find it difficult to download a copy for free.

    The opiates of the masses persuade even intelligent people without any logical arguments.
    Is there a difference between persuasion and hypnosis?
    Is there a difference between a salesman and a confidence trickster?
    Does Donald Trump really have an IQ of 156 in the 99.9 percentile?
    How is it possible to lose a billion dollar inheritance, (and hope to be trusted with inheriting an 18,000 billion GDP without losing a sizable chunk of it).
  35. #35
    I've got that one.
  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by chemist View Post
    Does Donald Trump really have an IQ of 156 in the 99.9 percentile?
    I seriously doubt it.

    It's hard to say, though because he actively hides his intelligence in public appearances. Rather, he expresses his intelligence by flawlessly executing a thoroughly constructed charismatic brand which sells like hotcakes and has earned him a legitimate run for the US Presidency.

    He doesn't seem (text book) intelligent, but it's no accident to have such a sculpted image, and so many supporting fans.

    ***
    I mean... I test in just below genius on various IQ tests. ~135 +/- 5 ... He doesn't seem significantly smarter than me... to me. I have totally different skills, though. He gets people. People confuse me. I get logic and evidence-based reasoning... he doesn't seem to be so good at that.

    An excellent reader of people can make good business decisions, not because they understand the market, but because they can understand the personalities at play and what those personalities believe and desire.
    I can think of worse qualities in a political leader. As long as the passionate people he's surrounded by are intelligent, he can find a way through the morass of emotions and come to the same decision as someone detailing the morass of data.

    To be clear... I don't think Trump is actually qualified, but in theory, I can imagine a person who is a good leader, yet not really logically sound of mind. If the people he takes his queues from are logical, that may be enough.
  37. #37
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    Taking queues from logical people sounds like something a logically sound of mind person would do.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Taking queues from logical people sounds like something a logically sound of mind person would do.
    Agreed.

    It also sounds like something someone who is not sound of mind could stumble onto, without it being a plan or tactic. Especially if he manages to make the logical people money or otherwise add to their prestige, then they are more likely to stick around.
  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    he actively hides his intelligence in public appearances.
    He certainly does.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    If the people he takes his queues from are logical, that may be enough.
    I get the feeling though that he is only interested in taking queues from himself.
  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by chemist View Post
    I get the feeling though that he is only interested in taking queues from himself.
    I get the sentiment. I really do. I thought it once too, but I don't think it's true any longer. Trump has changed messages and styles so many times based on other peoples' advice. He did different things under his different campaign managers. Word on the street is that he didn't want Pence as VP (Christie was his choice), but his family and advisers convinced him of Pence.
  41. #41
    Finally reading this stuff again. The Definitive Book of Body Language is extremely good. Very informative, easy to notice and apply.
  42. #42
    Let's say Person A believes Syrian refugees should be taken in by America and disagrees with Trump's policy. Let's say Person B disagrees with Person A and likes Trump's policy. How would Person B go about persuading Person A to his position? Would it be by starting with disagreement? Probably not. That would just further entrench both Persons A and B into their respective perspectives.

    I've been batting this around, here's how I think Person B could do it:

    Begin by agreeing with Person A and reframing the topic. The agreement turns Person B into advocate instead of adversary. It's pacing. It strongly signals the "liking" element of Cialdini's six elements. If Person A believes Person B agrees with him, Person A is more likely to listen to Person B. This also signals several other Cialdini elements like reciprocation.

    Along with agreeing, Person B should reframe. The beginning might look something like this: Person A: "Trump is wrong, America should take in more refugees." Person B: "I agree. Nobody should be mistreated. It's a mess. There are so many clusters of unidentified people in there. They shouldn't be mistreated." That type of a reframe may take days or weeks or months. Trump shouldn't be mentioned, disagreement with Person A shouldn't be mentioned, "refugee" or "Syrian" shouldn't be mentioned. The words that should be mentioned are things like "unidentified" and "clusters." They give a visual sense that is hard to disagree with, and they move the frame into more neutral territory that allows for Person B's interpretation to make sense.

    After the agreement and reframe are established, the next and final step might be to elicit a visceral response with new information and raise doubt. It probably shouldn't be something directly related to the issue since that would bring back biases, but it probably should be something that is easily juxtaposed. This could be done by Person B showing Person A a news story about ISIS drowning victims in cages and then discussing along these lines: "I wonder if these bad guys are sneaking into the clusters of unidentified people. They might be. A lot of smart people think they are."

    And with that, Person A might likely never think about the situation the same again. The whole process would probably take several days at minimum.

    Thoughts? I'm batting ideas around. Trying to piece things together.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 02-02-2017 at 02:58 PM.
  43. #43
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    How would Person A go about persuading Person B to his position?
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  44. #44
    It's an excellent question.

    A to B may be an easier task since the emotion it hinges on is fear, which I've seen persuaders claim is the most persuasive emotion.

    I'll have to think about it for a while.
  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    How would Person A go about persuading Person B to his position?
    Let's see if this works:

    Person B says "Trump is right. There's too great a risk of terrorists hiding among all the unidentified people. There should be extreme vetting, and that begins with a temporary ban to figure out what's going on." Person A doesn't agree with this and wants to change Person B's mind.

    Person A might want to start with agreeing and reframing. He could say "I agree, hurting people is terrible. Nobody should be harmed wrongly." To reframe, he could say "Syrian refugees need help. They're being hurt badly. They're asking for our help. We're good people because we help innocents who ask for our help. We should help Syrian refugees." This frame is close to what the issue is already framed as. "Refugee" assumes innocence. "Syrian" assumes legitimacy and lawfulness and puts a face to the unidentified persons. "We're good because we help innocents who ask for our help" invokes Cialdini's "commitment" element of persuasion.

    The next step could be getting the visceral reaction, the emotion primer. Person A wouldn't want to use fear and would want to avoid terrorism as much as possible. If Person A tried something like showing pictures of people slaughtered by ISIS, it would probably aid Person B's position more. Instead, perhaps Person A might show pictures and news stories of people who look like his refugees (preferably Syrians) leading wonderful lives in western countries. Then Person A could follow up along these lines: "These wonderful Syrians were in need of help once. If we didn't help them they might be dead or worse. Do we deserve our fruitful lives and refugees who were born in the wrong place at the wrong time don't?" All the "we"'s are important; if Person A can frame all sorts of different people as a collective, it's a big persuasion win.

    I think the above is mostly what the frame is today, and it has been pretty effective. It's probable my version of this framing is not as strong as it could be too.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 02-02-2017 at 06:25 PM.
  46. #46
    I wonder if this is persuasive. I suspect it is not.

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    How would Person A go about persuading Person B to his position?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_theory

    Ultimately arguing is a bad way to go about it. When you feel like you're getting attacked you essentially dig in deeper.
  48. #48
    Interesting. I'm guessing you saw that in Thinking, Fast and Slow.
  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Interesting. I'm guessing you saw that in Thinking, Fast and Slow.
    Tbh I'm not sure, probably is mentioned in there (I've still only read like 1/3 of the book) but when I was looking at books to buy a while ago it was a common topic amongst the recommended books.

    It's not really something you can do in the short term to persuade people so it's a bit of a cop out answer but that's kind of the point. If you have a friend or whatever who believes something stupid I'm sure you could go about reprogramming how they think about things over time without having an argument about it. Or at least priming them so when you have that argument they are going to be more receptive to it.
  50. #50
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    Persuasion certainly depends on the strength of the belief, and how long they've held the belief.

    Arguing in the sense of disagreement isn't always bad though. Neither is arguing in the sense of bullying or yelling. It all depends on the audience.
  51. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Persuasion certainly depends on the strength of the belief, and how long they've held the belief.

    Arguing in the sense of disagreement isn't always bad though. Neither is arguing in the sense of bullying or yelling. It all depends on the audience.
    That's certainly true. I think you can disagree with your friends and business associates. Probably because the relationship is one with little disagreement or the disagreement isn't personal.
  52. #52
    Is this persuasive?

  53. #53
    Nope.
  54. #54
    I would say it isn't either. Why isn't it?
  55. #55
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    Because its not an attempt to persuade.
  56. #56
    oic
  57. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I would say it isn't either. Why isn't it?
    Picture is too cartoony and as a result just acts as a distraction.

    The text uses some pretty poor ideas. The first is that if we have more than others it is wrong to try and better ourselves still, clearly false. The most important thing though imo from the perspective of persuasion is that it is far too based on feeling bad about things "you" are doing and relying on empathy for others when those concepts are too far removed for people to be able to properly empathise with.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Because its not an attempt to persuade.
    If that is true does it matter? You can discuss how persuasive something is even if that wasn't its purpose.
  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    If that is true does it matter? You can discuss how persuasive something is even if that wasn't its purpose.
    You can discuss anything. If you wanted, you can argue a flower pot is persuasive.

    The author of that post is clearly upset about the current state of affairs. But what is the author advocating for? Ending advocacy for women's rights in America? Ending certain types of advocacy for women's rights in the UK? Promoting the fight for women's rights in other countries? If women were treated better in other countries, would the author still be embarrassed? The author, although flustered by the events, is not telling us what to do about it. The author doesnt tell us, because the author isnt trying to persuade us to act.

    Maybe the author just wanted us to agree that it was embarrassing? Well, ok. If thats the author's entire point, its technically persuasive in that context.* It'd take more effort to persuade me that the sky is blue though, so I still give it a 0.5/10 in terms of persuasiveness.

    *Technically correct is the best kind of correct too
  59. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    The most important thing though imo from the perspective of persuasion is that it is far too based on feeling bad about things "you" are doing and relying on empathy for others when those concepts are too far removed for people to be able to properly empathise with.
    Excellent points all around, and I like this one especially.

    Things don't seem far removed when you agree with them already, but when you don't agree with them already, they are.

    It's probably part of why analogy is least persuasive.
  60. #60
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    It'd take more effort to persuade me that the sky is blue though
    IDK why people insist this to be true, when it's obviously not true at least half the time.

    It is a statistical expectation that it is sometimes blue or blue with white bits, and other times gray or black with white spots, or some combination thereof. Sometimes, it's even rainbow colored, but I hear that's usually only twice a day, except when it's not.
  61. #61
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    That's why it'd take more effort to persuade me!
  62. #62
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    I think Trump learned to get what he wanted and this meant often being persuasive. He isn't purposely acting like some sort of immature dolt on stage, he just subconciously learned that to get what he wanted, this is what would be required in this situation.

    He's a chameleon of sorts. Breaking down the democratic wall demanded that he said and acted the way he did.
  63. #63
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    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  64. #64
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  65. #65
    This was a good read, thanks. Now to try this out on annoying coworkers lol.
  66. #66
    And mother-in-law
  67. #67
    An eye-opening claim that changed my view on argumentation forever that I discovered through studying persuasion: as long as somebody can rationalize something that helps their argument, they will. This isn't true 100% of the time, but quite close.

    This explains why people hold views incorrigibly that seem so ridiculous to others. 97% of climate scientists believing in global warming isn't convincing because somebody who already is skeptical of global warming gets all the justification needed by the 3% who don't believe in global warming. To skeptics, the fact that scientific consensus has been wrong in the past is enough to justify their skepticism on global warming. These rationales are silly to people who believe in global warming, but the rationales are fine for those who don't.

    In my own life, as well as on this board, I've discovered this happening. I do it, you do it, we all do it. Given the vast quantity and deep depths of argumentation we've had on this board, one would expect a whole lot of opinion change too. But the opinion change has been very meager. This shows that there is something else going on. The explanation from the field of persuasion includes the above.
  68. #68
    JKDS's Avatar
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    I dont.
  69. #69
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Given the vast quantity and deep depths of argumentation we've had on this board, one would expect a whole lot of opinion change too. But the opinion change has been very meager.
    I've changed my opinions dramatically on many issues, due to conversations I've had with you, wuf, and with spoonitnow, RIP.
    (I cite you 2, since you both hold general world views which are dramatically different than mine.)

    Of course, you haven't swayed me to be in perfect agreement with you, but you have certainly enlightened me to many issues I was not aware of, and shown me your perspective which I had no chance of understanding until you did. That education has caused my opinions to drift.

    I have seen other people change their stance on certain issues. I think we are a generally open-minded group.

    We're not children. We're not foolish. We don't want to be stubborn or pig-headed. We have had to assemble a world view from the minutia of our lives, which are unique. It is only expected that we'll never resolve some disagreements, as we've had different life-experiences. That's not the whole picture, though.
  70. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    I dont.
    I always knew that you are a robot.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 02-17-2017 at 05:32 PM.
  71. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I've changed my opinions dramatically on many issues, due to conversations I've had with you, wuf, and with spoonitnow, RIP.
    (I cite you 2, since you both hold general world views which are dramatically different than mine.)

    Of course, you haven't swayed me to be in perfect agreement with you, but you have certainly enlightened me to many issues I was not aware of, and shown me your perspective which I had no chance of understanding until you did. That education has caused my opinions to drift.

    I have seen other people change their stance on certain issues. I think we are a generally open-minded group.

    We're not children. We're not foolish. We don't want to be stubborn or pig-headed. We have had to assemble a world view from the minutia of our lives, which are unique. It is only expected that we'll never resolve some disagreements, as we've had different life-experiences. That's not the whole picture, though.
    Good point. I've changed my views as well.
  72. #72
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    Did spoonitnow die?
  73. #73
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    Not literally, I hope. I just mean he hasn't posted here in months.
  74. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Not literally, I hope. I just mean he hasn't posted here in months.
    a day*
  75. #75
    From one of the top persuaders of our time: "Sufficiently advanced persuasion is indistinguishable from madness."

    https://twitter.com/cernovich/status/762000443413258240

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