Presidential Poll 1: Clinton vs Obama vs McCain

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drm: I hold politicians to what they do, not what they say. They all promise the world and many speak eloquently about lofty ideals and change.

But when it came down to it, he was someone voting for the Patriot Act.

what is wrong with the patriot act? i am for it. its not like they are listening in on you and your friend talking about how many lines of coke you snorted the night before, and then send police out to arrest you. they can tap ppl's phone w/o warrants, but they are only tapping ppl's phones that they suspect of terrorism. if i get a call from some al qaeda number my convo is likely to get tapped. there haven't been any reported abuses of it, and we haven't had a successful terrorist attack since 9/11, and that definitely isnt because they decided to stop trying.

meh, I agreed with you on a lot of things in this thread and this forum in general, but I think youre misguided in your faith. Theres a reason for checks and balances and all that fun stuff. When we start eroding these checks and balances and putting people on the honor system, it all falls apart. I could sell drugs, and be very active in anti-bush blogging. Some comments on my blog could catch the wrong peoples attention, and then my phone lines are tapped and Im sitting in a sell for selling drugs. Ok, sure I shouldnt be selling drugs, but none the less they shouldnt be tapping my phone.

edit, better example: Im a very active anti war/bush blogger. Im talking on the phone with my wife who is traveling on business. Im horny and so is she so we start talking about what we are going to do when we finally are back together. I should have a right to privacy here, no one should be listening. Also seeing as these agents are probably pro-bush theres the risk of this sensitive and private material being purposefully leaked to discredit and publicly embarrass me.

yeah but boost, have you heard of any abuses of the patriot act, because i havent? these are all reasonable concerns and i think that its possible for the government to abuse it. if you are already breaking a crime (e.g. selling drugs) you are liable to get your phone tapped regardless of the patriot act with a warrant. hypothetically, even if they did (occasionally) abuse it, and again im not saying they are, wouldnt it be for the greater good?

also its not like j. edgar hoover is in charge anymore.

Your riding the naive train, last stop: Orwellville.

okay you still havent given me a good reason to think otherwise or provided any proof that an abuse has been breeched. i know and understand exactly what you are saying, and i agree, if the worst happened, then yeah there would be an orwellian result. think realistically, even with computers that detect flags in convo's like "bomb president bush", "kill president", etc., (btw im just making up terms i have no idea what gets flagged), do you really think they have enough man power to start listening in on every conversation that flags? what im saying isnt described that great, but im tired.

it is not absurd to imagine a not so distant future in which very little man power was in fact needed. Its like, if everyone was really ticketed everytime they did a rolling stop at a stop sign, everyone would be bankrupt. The idea that it was possible through technology to actually do this was not considered when penalties for running a stop sign were put in place. However More and more cities are implementing traffic camera systems that are mounted at every major intersection. As technology drops in price, do you believe that these systems wont be expanded? When does it stop? I believe your argument is horribly short sighted. And I believe your counter argument that I havent given you proof is simply ridiculous. The average person under a fascist regime doesnt know much about the atrocities that are taking place until much too late.

But none the less there are countless examples. What we havent talked about is that this is a two stage breach of our rights. First you dont need a warrant for a phone tap. And more importantly if you they hear something that leads them to believe you are suspect of terror plots they can imprison you while ignoring the 6th amendment. Now they can hold you without charging you, taking you to trial, allowing you legal counsel ect.

This is where the less "conspiracy theory" type of abuse comes into play. Theses boy scouts are out there saving the country from another 9/11 by are indiscriminately rounding up people of middle eastern heritage. I worked with a man who was one of these unfortunate people. He is an Egyptian Christian, and was held without trial for almost a year. When they decided that he actually had nothing to do with any terrorist plots, you know what they did? Unceremoniously let him go. No apology, no compensation, nothing. This is a hard working individual that came here to better his life, and is working towards citizenship. Almost a year of his life, gone, for what?