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Randomness thread, part two.

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  1. #29101
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    So how many men in the world existed who could beat Serena Williams more than 50% of the time in her prime?

    I'm going to say somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500.
  2. #29102
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    I know one thing that's behind why oskar gets so triggered by me, but I don't want to embarrass the guy for no reason, so I don't really care to bring it up.


    You have been this kid for as long as I can remember, and you still haven't realized it. We all did it, but most of us stopped around first grade because it got embarrassing. You are going full steam ahead with it to this day! It is truly remarkable.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  3. #29103
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    It's like this. If I don't bring it up, he's probably going to be in here screeching that I should bring it up. If I do bring it up, he's going to be in here screeching that I made it up, photoshopped screenshots, conversations and pictures or whatever else.

    Alternatively, he might just go on one about how I'm just trolling or whatever, so I'm going to go ahead and state here that I'm never going to out him on anything no matter what he says, so hopefully that's enough that if he reads this, he'll decide to start acting like a normal human being toward me again.

    If not, oh well.
    go on... but if you go full banana, I will only respond to the first paragraph, because I value my time too much to read your wall of text posts.

    I don't find anything you say clever or outside of what I would expect from a generic Trump supporter. You're regurgitating the same opinions that come down the human centipede that is the republican disinformation pipeline that spills all over social media.

    It is occasionally entertaining, but mostly tedious to listen to. If you want to believe I get worked up about the same talking points I've read a hundred times already, knock yourself out.
    Last edited by oskar; 02-25-2021 at 01:50 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  4. #29104
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    The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
  5. #29105
    I don't really see what people get out of being internet trolls. They remind me of kids who pull the wings off of flies, only they're grown-ups doing it to other people.

    Let's say I want to troll some religious fundamentalists. I go on to JebusLove.com and start making posts about how much I worship Satan and posting photos of dead animals and crosses on fire. They all predictably lose their minds, then I sit back and laugh. What does this actually accomplish? It's not clever, it's just being an asshole.

    IRL if I saw a guy walk up to some ugly woman in the street and tell her she's ugly and her mother should be ashamed, then start laughing when the woman starts to cry, I'd be severely tempted to give the guy a good slapping around.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  6. #29106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I don't really see what people get out of being internet trolls. They remind me of kids who pull the wings off of flies, only they're grown-ups doing it to other people.

    Let's say I want to troll some religious fundamentalists. I go on to JebusLove.com and start making posts about how much I worship Satan and posting photos of dead animals and crosses on fire. They all predictably lose their minds, then I sit back and laugh. What does this actually accomplish? It's not clever, it's just being an asshole.

    IRL if I saw a guy walk up to some ugly woman in the street and tell her she's ugly and her mother should be ashamed, then start laughing when the woman starts to cry, I'd be severely tempted to give the guy a good slapping around.
    @bold, that's the point.

    Welcome to the wonderful world of sadism. There's a lot of nuance to it, and the example in your last paragraph definitely wouldn't do it for me.

    <-------- See also: my title
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 02-25-2021 at 03:07 PM.
  7. #29107
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    I don't think I ever got over really enjoying looking at Jennifer Connelly.
  8. #29108
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I don't really see what people get out of being internet trolls. They remind me of kids who pull the wings off of flies, only they're grown-ups doing it to other people.

    Let's say I want to troll some religious fundamentalists. I go on to JebusLove.com and start making posts about how much I worship Satan and posting photos of dead animals and crosses on fire. They all predictably lose their minds, then I sit back and laugh. What does this actually accomplish? It's not clever, it's just being an asshole.

    IRL if I saw a guy walk up to some ugly woman in the street and tell her she's ugly and her mother should be ashamed, then start laughing when the woman starts to cry, I'd be severely tempted to give the guy a good slapping around.
    Pulling wings off flies is actual harm, albeit to a fly. You seem to be implying that trolling is inherently harmful. Extreme trolling certainly is, like baiting suicidal people or grieving parents and stuff like that, and the examples you give are still pretty harsh, not the kind of trolling I engage in. My idea of trolling is poking my nose into a debate about JK Rowling and telling the idiots that I'm transgender and don't hate her, shit like that. I just talk out of my ass, I don't go out of my way to upset people. If they happen to get upset by my comments, I find it amusing because they're clearly an fucking idiot.

    Making idiots angry is sport.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #29109
    "an fucking idiot"

    I have actually called someone an idiot for exactly this typo on Twitter haha
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #29110
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Pulling wings off flies is actual harm, albeit to a fly. You seem to be implying that trolling is inherently harmful. Extreme trolling certainly is, like baiting suicidal people or grieving parents and stuff like that, and the examples you give are still pretty harsh, not the kind of trolling I engage in. My idea of trolling is poking my nose into a debate about JK Rowling and telling the idiots that I'm transgender and don't hate her, shit like that. I just talk out of my ass, I don't go out of my way to upset people. If they happen to get upset by my comments, I find it amusing because they're clearly an fucking idiot.

    Making idiots angry is sport.
    I think poop is suggesting that even making idiots angry is causing them harm [emotionally], and I'm inclined to agree.

    I don't do it because I think that they deserve to have harm done to them. I just do it because I enjoy causing them harm. I enjoy it more than, to use poop's example, running up to an ugly woman and calling her ugly as fuck or whatever. I don't find anything funny or enjoyable about that.

    I might not be able to legally kill these morons, but I can get them to waste enough of their time and energy that it chips away at the time they have on this planet, and that's an incremental version of the same thing.

    In an effort to not waste my own time, I tend to only do it while I'm in the middle of something else like sitting on the can or waiting in line somewhere.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 02-25-2021 at 04:06 PM.
  11. #29111
    I don't see emotional harm as the same as physical harm. Don't be a fucking pussy. That one time you pissed me off, that is what I said to myself. Emotional harm is, for the most part, something you allow to happen to yourself, not something inflicted on you by another person.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #29112
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't see emotional harm as the same as physical harm. Don't be a fucking pussy. That one time you pissed me off, that is what I said to myself. Emotional harm is, for the most part, something you allow to happen to yourself, not something inflicted on you by another person.
    I 100% agree with the spirit of what you're saying, and I used to think exactly like this in virtually all cases, but not all emotional harm is the same.

    I've seen what emotional harm can do to someone whether they want it to or not. It's not always something someone just allows to happen to themselves. It can cause lasting psychological damage that simply isn't a choice.

    For a more extreme but specific example, C-PTSD in children caused by emotional harm causes changes in the physical makeup of their nervous system. Just to show how serious it can be, these neurological changes directly lead to a higher incidence of auto-immune disorders. That's not a choice, and it's not something that they can simply think their way out of.

    This is why I prefer the type of trolling I prefer and not the situation of running up to the ugly woman and calling her ugly for the lols. I try to stay on the side of the line that is largely a choice instead of something that's going to like scar someone for life.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 02-26-2021 at 12:18 AM.
  13. #29113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Let's say I want to troll some religious fundamentalists. I go on to JebusLove.com and start making posts about how much I worship Satan and posting photos of dead animals and crosses on fire. They all predictably lose their minds...
    Would they really?
    Even at the extreme when the Westbro Babtist Church pickets a military funeral, most people just seem to feel embarrassed by proxy.
    Spoon does get me to cringe when he humiliates himself with "I could totally embarrass you hard if I wanted to, but I don't want to because you'd be so hurt if I did..." that is such a big oof from someone over the age of 12.
    If that's sadism, that is a very specific form of sadism... I wonder if De Sade has some lost works where he confesses to letters in which he taunts randos with limp threats of future debate.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  14. #29114
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Would they really?
    When I was a kid I had a friend whose parents were Ned and Maude Flanders, and when I tried to introduce him to Dungeons and Dragons, they freaked out when they found out there was a character called an "evil high priest." So, if something like that gets them to call the exorcist, I would assume they'd get even more upset by something actually blaphsmemous. Small sample though.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  15. #29115
    Quote Originally Posted by spoon
    For a more extreme but specific example, C-PTSD in children caused by emotional harm causes changes in the physical makeup of their nervous system.
    I guess I'm less sympathetic because of my experiences. Most of us are shaped one way or another by our experiences through childhood. It makes you who you are, whether that's someone brimming with confidence or a socially inept person. It also shapes how you deal with stresses in adult life. So when we talk about childhood trauma causing emotional harm, well I had it worse than average and I don't cry about it when someone says something mean to me. I learned from a young age to deal with it. I took that attitude into adult life and told myself than happiness is a choice. I know it's not the full story, I had a meltdown a few years back and was a mess for a while, it took me a lot longer than I wish it had of to pull my shit together, and at the time my frame of mind most certainly wasn't a choice, but in hindsight I still look back and think "I shouldn't have been such a fucking pussy". That was a weakness on my part.

    When you know it's a weakness on your part, you stop blaming other people. That's half the battle won. The other half is doing things that take your mind off whatever is pissing you off, whether that's listening to music, walking the dog, fishing, whatever. Who wants to allow negative emotions to control how you feel? Take control.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #29116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    When I was a kid I had a friend whose parents were Ned and Maude Flanders, and when I tried to introduce him to Dungeons and Dragons, they freaked out when they found out there was a character called an "evil high priest." So, if something like that gets them to call the exorcist, I would assume they'd get even more upset by something actually blaphsmemous. Small sample though.
    I can also confirm that there are plenty of people who would absolutely lose their shit over what you described.
  17. #29117
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    Does anyone here actually play poker anymore?
  18. #29118
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Does anyone here actually play poker anymore?
    I play badugi and the occasional NLHE MTT. I only play cash NLHE if I'm broke and need to grind a roll until I can play badugi instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  19. #29119
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    Sounds good. Badugi was always something I wanted to get into before I got out of poker.
  20. #29120
    I play a lot of micros of every game. I haven't been good enough to make money at competitive stakes since BF, but I do still get a lot of laughs out of things the microfish do.

    Trying to learn the PLO now. I think I'm winning but the variance is ridiculous, so no idea really.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  21. #29121
    I miss the good old days of the poker boom. Two or three fish at every table. To play against a bunch of droolers for real money was fucking great.

    I used to play LHE because it seemed easier to learn than NL and I didn't have a lot of free time to study. I got up to $3/6 and was crushing it for about 2BB/100 for a couple of years. Every time I tried to move up to $5/10 though I got spanked. Then BF came and the games seemed to all turn into reg-fests. Played for about another 3 months and finally said fuck this.

    I played a lot of NL tourneys too back then, mostly when I was drinking. Did ok overall. One time I played a $22 NL tourney sober just for kicks and binked it. 1/1200 players or something. Won about $4500. That was sweet.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  22. #29122
    I'm not particularly good at badugi, but it's pretty easy to play badly, and the minimum stakes on stars is 25/50 limit, so if you have a solid grasp and some discipline, it's pretty easy to play +ev against half the table. Of course, regular cashouts means playing undrerolled, and that means variance is a cunt, but if I run out of money I reload and grind $0.02 zoom until I have $50 or so, which is probably a month.

    I used to cashout to buy weed, but my last few cashouts have been put into crypto.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  23. #29123
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    This is funny as fuck: http://rumblr.webflow.io/

    It's like Tinder but for fighting
  24. #29124
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    poop, you've got to the point where you just want to argue with me about everything I talk about. That needs addressing. It's not healthy debate, it's not interesting conversation, it's not constructive.

    It's not even like I give a fuck. I just don't understand why you do it. Nobody else does it. Oskar doesn't, boost doesn't, and these are people who regularly tell me I'm talking shit. I don't have a problem with people challenging my opinions, calling me retarded, or whatever. I just wish you'd pick the right times to do it, and this isn't it, and neither is the crypto discussion. It just seems like you have no interest in engaging sincerely and just want to throw shit about.

    It shouldn't take mojo to back me up for you to wind your neck in. You can sometimes say "ok ong you're right".

    For clarity, contempt of court is a serious offence and people go to prison for it. It shouldn't surprise you that I would be careful what I say, even if it is highly likely only four or five people will read it.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


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  25. #29125
    I hate that song.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  26. #29126
    Is it just me or is FTR super slow these last few days?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #29127
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Slow as in people posting? Yes.

    Slow as in website loading slowly? Not for me.
  28. #29128
    The latter. I guess it's just me then. It's only here, other sites loading up quickly. Here it's taking like five seconds of white screen before it loads up.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #29129
    I'm having the same experience with slow loading lately. Maybe it's a transatlantic thing?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  30. #29130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I'm having the same experience with slow loading lately. Maybe it's a transatlantic thing?
    Was it Pacific or Indian before its transition?
  31. #29131
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Was it Pacific or Indian before its transition?
    That's a knee-slapper for sure.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  32. #29132
    That's gotta be a hate crime from spoon there. I'm sure someone who was born a sea but identifies as an ocean would find it hurtful to the point of suicide to read such casual jokes about ocean identity.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #29133
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    That's gotta be a hate crime from spoon there. I'm sure someone who was born a sea but identifies as an ocean would find it hurtful to the point of suicide to read such casual jokes about ocean identity.
    It honestly probably is in the UK, and I mean that with no sarcasm.

    As an aside, I've started getting that loading delay for FTR that you mentioned.
  34. #29134
    I don't really think it'a a hate crime. It's clearly a joke intended to make fun of transgender matters, but is it "abuse"? That's the language the govt use to define "hate crime". I don't think it meets that criteria, but I really wouldn't be surprised to see such a case before the court because the cops thought it did amount to "abuse". I can't see how a court can decide that amounts to "abuse". It does fall into "protected category" though.

    We live in an age where it is illegal to discriminate against a man who claims to be a woman, but it's perfectly legal to discriminate against gingers. Like, I could actually make it a policy to not employ ginger people, and while it would be terrible for my business reputation, it wouldn't be illegal. No doubt I could get sued, but not prosecuted. If I apply that policy to men in dresses, I'm a criminal.

    Trans activism is ridiculous in this day and age. We're at the point where they're trying to argue that instinctive attraction to pussy and instinctive repulsion to dick is transphobic. They already lost the majority of rational people, but they're slowly destroying the support they do have because most people don't control their sexual preferences.

    Trans activism is more damaging to trans people than helpful. It's counterproductive. The vast majority of people don't give a fuck what adults choose to wear, how they choose to identify. But when people are constantly being told they are transphobic for being normal, it creates an air of resentment. It's like being told you're racist for disputing the moral integrity of BLM. You can't have a rational debate with these people. And they have the nerve to call feminists "radical".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  35. #29135
    This delay loading up FTR pages is getting longer every day. I think the site is under some kind of attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  36. #29136
    Do you think there are any reasonable implications to be drawn from a racial preference in sexual attraction?
  37. #29137
    About what?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  38. #29138
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Do you think there are any reasonable implications to be drawn from a racial preference in sexual attraction?
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  39. #29139
    If the question is: does a sexual preference for/against a particular race make you a racist, I think the answer is no.

    Fun game: rank the following faces on a scale of 1-3, with 3 being most attractive and 1 being least.

    https://feministphilosophers.files.w...verageface.jpg



    Me, from top left:
    2,2,1,3,1,2,1 ,1, 3
    3,3,2,1,1,1,2,1,2
    2,2,2,3,3,2,1,2,3
    1,2,1,2,3,2,2,1,2
    2,3,2,2,1
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  40. #29140
    I'd nail them all.

    I certainly have racial preferences. Japanese and Chinese women come out clear favourites. And I don't think there exists a race or ethnicity where I would immediately say "no". There are lots of seriously beautiful black women. I judge each women's beauty on its own merits. I think the vast majority of people do. Racial bias is natural, and it's not always a preference for one's own race. Even if it is, that's not racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  41. #29141
    Well, I think it's an extremely complex issue and your absolute certainty makes me wonder if we can have a productive conversation around it, but I'll try anyways:

    I don't think people should be scolded for their sexual preferences or their conceptions of beauty, but I am skeptical that Western economic, military, and most importantly mass media dominance doesn't play a role in European features being the dominant beauty standard. It's possible that a cute girl saw you struggling to tie your shoe laces in preschool, taught you how, and that's the basis of your racial sexual preference. Or you may have grown up jerking it to hentai, and now you're into Asian chicks. Or a combination of personal experiences and broader cultural influences.

    I imagine people, maybe you included, rule out the idea that Western dominance has shaped their sexual attraction because they think it would imply they're not just racist but some sort of sexually deviant racist. On the contrary I think it's just a very reasonable possibility that invites you to examine how culture, media, the odd fortunes of history, etc, have shaped your outlook, preferences, goals, etc.
  42. #29142
    There's an evolutionary advantage to breeding with someone genetically dissimilar to you.

    Cultural pressures are another thing.

    Not really sure where you're trying to go with this, so not going to say more right now.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  43. #29143
    Ok I lied.

    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I imagine people, maybe you included, rule out the idea that Western dominance has shaped their sexual attraction because they think it would imply they're not just racist but some sort of sexually deviant racist. On the contrary I think it's just a very reasonable possibility that invites you to examine how culture, media, the odd fortunes of history, etc, have shaped your outlook, preferences, goals, etc.
    The cultural pressure can just be wanting someone like yourself. If I had a choice between two identical twins separated at birth, one raised in Canada and one raised in the middle of the jungle somewhere, I'd pick the one raised in Canada. It's not because I have a problem with Amazonian women I just don't relate to them.

    Same goes for black women in general. I don't share a culture with them. Perhaps if I'm being entirely honest there's also some sense that I'd be "stepping down the social ladder" by dating one because our culture holds them in less esteem. It's not a feeling I'm proud of, but it is there in the back of my mind.

    On a somewhat related note, there appears to be no own-race preference in attractiveness. So maybe it is down to culture.

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf...70491301100410
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  44. #29144
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Well, I think it's an extremely complex issue and your absolute certainty makes me wonder if we can have a productive conversation around it, but I'll try anyways:

    I don't think people should be scolded for their sexual preferences or their conceptions of beauty, but I am skeptical that Western economic, military, and most importantly mass media dominance doesn't play a role in European features being the dominant beauty standard. It's possible that a cute girl saw you struggling to tie your shoe laces in preschool, taught you how, and that's the basis of your racial sexual preference. Or you may have grown up jerking it to hentai, and now you're into Asian chicks. Or a combination of personal experiences and broader cultural influences.

    I imagine people, maybe you included, rule out the idea that Western dominance has shaped their sexual attraction because they think it would imply they're not just racist but some sort of sexually deviant racist. On the contrary I think it's just a very reasonable possibility that invites you to examine how culture, media, the odd fortunes of history, etc, have shaped your outlook, preferences, goals, etc.
    I can't speak for others, but I'm pretty sure my taste in women comes entirely natural to me. My preference leans heavily Asian, primarily far east but also Indians and even Islamic women. I don't think it's a childhood fixation, and it's certainly not hentai. When I was a kid, the woman for me was Kylie Minogue, all other women compared to her. So it's not really a childhood thing either. I think my preference for Japanese women comes from me looking at them and thinking "fucking wow". That seems natural, not nurtured.

    I don't think the media remotely shapes my taste in women. And I really don't see how Western dominance plays a role at all. I like beautiful women of all races, with an Asian preference. idk why really, it's deeply subconscious if not purely instinctive. I just find a much higher percentage of their women attractive.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  45. #29145
    Ong, not only can you not speak for others, in this instance you can't even speak for yourself. The idea that you can know what is nature and what is nurture simply by thinking about it is absurd. Also the idea that p much anything is solely one or the other is also absurd. What is nature and what is nurture is not (readily at minimum) accessible to the subject simply through introspection. If you're not interested in exploring the possibilities, or if it's simply overly offensive to your sense of self, I think that's totally understandable. But the above is not a serious rejoinder to anything I said.

    And the hentai thing was just a jab for the luls.
  46. #29146
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    There's an evolutionary advantage to breeding with someone genetically dissimilar to you.

    Cultural pressures are another thing.

    Not really sure where you're trying to go with this, so not going to say more right now.
    I feel like I saw a reasonable rejection of that finding. Something like there are advantages and there are disadvantages on the genetic level. But, yeah, I don't have anything to site-- just a grain of "that may just be one of those things that sounded good and was wildfire in the dry tinder fields of thirsty scientifically ignorant journalists."

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Ok I lied.



    The cultural pressure can just be wanting someone like yourself. If I had a choice between two identical twins separated at birth, one raised in Canada and one raised in the middle of the jungle somewhere, I'd pick the one raised in Canada. It's not because I have a problem with Amazonian women I just don't relate to them.

    Same goes for black women in general. I don't share a culture with them. Perhaps if I'm being entirely honest there's also some sense that I'd be "stepping down the social ladder" by dating one because our culture holds them in less esteem. It's not a feeling I'm proud of, but it is there in the back of my mind.

    On a somewhat related note, there appears to be no own-race preference in attractiveness. So maybe it is down to culture.

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf...70491301100410
    We're good at telling ourselves stories that back up the decisions we've made or the preferences we hold. You could just as well go for the Amazonian twin because you're Canadian and are like, "well then, what's that a-boot?"

    Anyways, like I said above, I think this is precisely why it's a tough topic, because most people do have racial preferences in mates, whether it's their own or not (that study is interesting, but I'd like to see it compared to the broader population-- university students have to be the most cosmopolitan demo), and it skews European. I don't think this alone implicates anyone on a personal level, but I do think self-implication followed by defensiveness are very common knee jerk responses. In my mind, once passed the discomfort, individuals can investigate the issue and in doing so mitigate some of the harm done by these society level skews.
    Last edited by boost; 03-18-2021 at 06:53 PM.
  47. #29147
    Ong, not only can you not speak for others, in this instance you can't even speak for yourself.
    Right, but you can?

    The idea that you can know what is nature and what is nurture simply by thinking about it is absurd
    You can go as far as to reflect on your memories. If you learn something, you might remember the process of learning. Like if I could pinpoint a precise moment when I could have picked up a preference for Asian women, like wanking off to hentai, I'd be more inclined to think it was nurtured.



    Also the idea that p much anything is solely one or the other is also absurd
    We're born with certain instincts. Of course nature and nurture are not mutually exclusive, idk if my particular taste in women is instinct or not but the fact I find women attractive in the first place is instinctive. I didn't learnt to be straight.


    If you're not interested in exploring the possibilities, or if it's simply overly offensive to your sense of self
    It's not that it's offensive, it's absurd. You're arguing "Western dominance" plays a role in my preference for non-Western girls. I don't see how it's remotely relevant.

    And the hentai thing was just a jab for the luls.
    I don't understand who gets off on that. Isn't actual porn better?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  48. #29148
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I feel like I saw a reasonable rejection of that finding. Something like there are advantages and there are disadvantages on the genetic level. But, yeah, I don't have anything to site-- just a grain of "that may just be one of those things that sounded good and was wildfire in the dry tinder fields of thirsty scientifically ignorant journalists."
    Not a biologist, but hybrid vigour is a pretty well-established thing that goes back a long ways in biology afaik. Maybe there are also advantages to sharing certain genes but I haven't heard of that.

    Culturally, one could argue that it's easier to fit in as a purebred than as mixed-race. Maybe that's what your thinking of.



    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    We're good at telling ourselves stories that back up the decisions we've made or the preferences we hold. You could just as well go for the Amazonian twin because you're Canadian and are like, "well then, what's that a-boot?"
    I just told you what I personally would do and why. You might make a different choice though, that's fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Anyways, like I said above, I think this is precisely why it's a tough topic, because most people do have racial preferences in mates, whether it's their own or not (that study is interesting, but I'd like to see it compared to the broader population-- university students have to be the most cosmopolitan demo), and it skews European. I don't think this alone implicates anyone on a personal level, but I do think self-implication followed by defensiveness are very common knee jerk responses. In my mind, once passed the discomfort, individuals can investigate the issue and in doing so mitigate some of the harm done by these society level skews.
    What society level skews are you talking about? If people prefer their own race for cultural reasons that seems pretty reasonable to me. If they find other races exotic and want to fuck them for biological reasons that makes sense too.

    I don't see mate preferences as having any intrinsic harm in them. What harm do you think they cause?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  49. #29149
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Right, but you can?
    I think there's a reasonable possibility that there are influences from our culture on our sexual preferences that we would prefer not to have.

    You seem to think you can know that these influences don't exist or at least haven't influenced you. These are not equally opposed stances.



    You can go as far as to reflect on your memories. If you learn something, you might remember the process of learning. Like if I could pinpoint a precise moment when I could have picked up a preference for Asian women, like wanking off to hentai, I'd be more inclined to think it was nurtured.
    Yeah, no, do some reading on this. We're great at making up these narratives that explain our actions and dispositions. There's little reason to think any of these narratives is accurate.


    We're born with certain instincts. Of course nature and nurture are not mutually exclusive, idk if my particular taste in women is instinct or not but the fact I find women attractive in the first place is instinctive. I didn't learnt to be straight.
    I'm a bit skeptical of sexuality being anything but a fluid spectrum, but putting that aside, I'm pretty agnostic on whether or not someone's sexuality is purely nature. I always found it an odd but understandable political stance of proponents of LGBTQ rights, but the idea that "I'm not choosing to be gay" and "I was born gay" are synonymous is patently dumb.

    It's not that it's offensive, it's absurd. You're arguing "Western dominance" plays a role in my preference for non-Western girls. I don't see how it's remotely relevant.
    I never argued this. Take yourself out of the center of everything.

    As for how your preference can coexist with my thesis, this is an important lesson about big numbers and individual variance within populations. It can be true that the person with the highest vertical jump is from group X but the group with the highest vertical jump is group Y.

    I don't understand who gets off on that. Isn't actual porn better?
    I imagine it's similar to animation/illustration vs film/photography. There are exaggerations and distillations of the world that are only possible or only readily acceptable to the viewer in the former. Of course if we take popularity as a measure of value, then yes, real porn is better, but, you know, different strokes.
  50. #29150
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Not a biologist, but hybrid vigour is a pretty well-established thing that goes back a long ways in biology afaik. Maybe there are also advantages to sharing certain genes but I haven't heard of that.

    Culturally, one could argue that it's easier to fit in as a purebred than as mixed-race. Maybe that's what your thinking of.
    Yeah, now that you say that, I think it may have been something along the lines of the media treating genetic differentiation as synonymous with racial differentiation. So hybrid vigor can be a thing, but it doesn't necessarily line up with interracial attraction.



    I just told you what I personally would do and why. You might make a different choice though, that's fine.
    Yeah, I get that, but your why is flawed. As I pointed out, you could have just as well used the why to justify the opposite preference. As such, I think it's reasonable to assume there's more to the story. I don't love that this got personal-- but both you and Ong offered personal examples. I'm armchair psychiatrist'ing here, but maybe it's because you guys felt implicated in the way I said I don't think you should.

    I really don't think you have anything to answer for in regards to your sexual preferences. All three of us were born into a world as it was, and we grew into adulthood in a society that didn't acknowledge or didn't take these ideas seriously. Maybe it's a flawed thesis, but it isn't flawed for any of the anecdotes raised itt so far.

    What society level skews are you talking about? If people prefer their own race for cultural reasons that seems pretty reasonable to me. If they find other races exotic and want to fuck them for biological reasons that makes sense too.

    I don't see mate preferences as having any intrinsic harm in them. What harm do you think they cause?
    Right, so if you think of it from an economic lens, if certain permutations of beauty are artificially inflated in value and other's artificially deflated, the beauty market is distorted and inefficient. There are all sorts of deleterious effects, but a few that jump to mind are the difficulty in dating for artificially undervalued demographics, and interestingly enough the potentially wasted non beauty related talents of the artificially inflated demographics.

    I really don't know what there is to be done beyond talking about it and in a way that isn't shaming people/insinuating that they're bad people for being attracted to who they're attracted to.
    Last edited by boost; 03-19-2021 at 01:58 PM.
  51. #29151
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Yeah, now that you say that, I think it may have been something along the lines of the media treating genetic differentiation as synonymous with racial differentiation. So hybrid vigor can be a thing, but it doesn't necessarily line up with interracial attraction.
    In terms of the nature side of the argument, hybrid vigour would encourage people to seek mates who are different from themselves. There would be an evolutionary advantage to having little biege children who are more fit.




    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Yeah, I get that, but your why is flawed. As I pointed out, you could have just as well used the why to justify the opposite preference.
    No I couldn't because I'd be saying the exact opposite of what I did say lol. Someone else could though.

    Your argument is like if someone says they prefer summer to winter because it's hot and you turn around and say "you could also say you like winter 'cause it's cold." Sure, I COULD say that, but I didn't. Because I like hot weather more than cold weather. ffs.



    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    As such, I think it's reasonable to assume there's more to the story. I don't love that this got personal-- but both you and Ong offered personal examples. I'm armchair psychiatrist'ing here, but maybe it's because you guys felt implicated in the way I said I don't think you should.
    I didn't really understand what you were getting at with your op, so giving a personal example was my way of trying to probe it. I also as much as admitted to not being eager to date a black woman for cultural reasons so it's not like I feel you were attacking me personally, I just thought maybe that was the kind of thing you were talking about.



    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I really don't think you have anything to answer for in regards to your sexual preferences.

    That's a relief.

    Seriously though, I agree inasmuch as you can't argue tastes. If someone said "I wouldn't have sex with such-and-such race because I think they're all vermin," that would be a problem. But just saying "I think race X is sexier than race Y" is not.



    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    All three of us were born into a world as it was, and we grew into adulthood in a society that didn't acknowledge or didn't take these ideas seriously. Maybe it's a flawed thesis, but it isn't flawed for any of the anecdotes raised itt so far.
    I still don't know what your thesis is...



    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Right, so if you think of it from an economic lens, if certain permutations of beauty are artificially inflated in value and other's artificially deflated, the beauty market is distorted and inefficient.
    Ok, I think I see where this is going now.

    Say culture A totally inflates the beauty appeal of race Y over race Z. That's inherently a problem because no-one will want to fuck anyone from race Z. The only ones who will are those also from race Z, 'cause they can't get with anyone from Y. For everyone there will be fewer choices because the market is stratified.




    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    There are all sorts of deleterious effects, but a few that jump to mind are the difficulty in dating for artificially undervalued demographics, and interestingly enough the potentially wasted non beauty related talents of the artificially inflated demographics.
    Do you have a concrete example? Like, if whites are overvalued in terms of beauty in the West it's certainly not costing them any jobs in other fields. It's just one more advantage.



    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I really don't know what there is to be done beyond talking about it and in a way that isn't shaming people/insinuating that they're bad people for being attracted to who they're attracted to.
    Agree, it's a potentially touchy subject because any insinuation, intended or not, that someone is a racist usually strikes a nerve.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  52. #29152
    Poop, you can have a deterministic view of the world and still entertain what could have been that did not come to pass. The point of this is, at least in this instance, is to understand or at least pick at root causes, or eliminate non-root causes. I happen to agree that you could not have done otherwise, but nonetheless your explanation for the preference is empty. We're kinda beating a dead horse here, but I feel like you're being intentionally stubborn on this point. There is a reason you sided with, for lack of better terms, comfort over novelty. Simply stating that the choice aligns with comfort does not get to the root of it.

    On hybrid vigor: did you read my post? Genetic divergence as related to hybrid vigor is not necessarily correlated to race. Therefore "beige" skin is not a signifier of fitness.

    I suppose you are asking for a concrete example of the latter half of the sentence. If you mean an anecdotal example, no, I don't readily have one. A few plausible scenarios are waiting tables, being an influencer, porn, etc. Time is finite and if a demographic is receiving outsized rewards for beauty specific work, on average they'll spend more time in those roles. Of course, as I think you were getting at, beauty is advantageous regardless of industry.

    Anyways, I brought up the subject, in response to Ong's post on trans issues because I think race based aberrations in the dating market are a worrying and fairly clear signal of lasting bigoted values from earlier more xenophobic times. Yet I struggle to see anti-trans sexual preferences in a similar light. I still remember how mixed kids stood out, dating across racial lines caused people to talk, and now, in much of the US, that's faded. It's still there, but nothing like it was when I was a kid, which was nothing like it was when my parents were kids, and so on. Will it be the same with trans/bi dating in a decade or two?

    I suppose I'm just trying to peak my head up above the fog of the status quo.
  53. #29153
    Oh, also, I should point out that there are plenty of black women who share cultural values with you, whatever those values may be.
  54. #29154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    In terms of the nature side of the argument, hybrid vigour would encourage people to seek mates who are different from themselves. There would be an evolutionary advantage to having little biege children who are more fit.
    Are you sure? For sure there's evidence against the opposite, that is incest causing issues, but is there proof for as wide a pool as possible being beneficial? I think it's conceivable anything between those extremes could be more beneficial.

    Personally I think familiarity plays a big role, at least coming from a culturally homogenous background. Dating local colored women wasn't an option when I was young, my image of them was completely formed by pop culture, movies, tv etc. I would like to say I have no type when it comes to "race", but I do acknowledge a fairly heavy bias towards white women. I think there are beautiful women everywhere, but maybe the distributions aren't linear for me. If I had to choose a preference, it'd probably fall on south america, italy, spain etc.

    Scientific studies tend to find symmetric facial structure, "average" features the most attractive across the globe, I'm sure culture, media, experiences etc shape us far more than our cognitive decisions, so I wouldn't at all be surprised with bias on our preferences, but whether eg. racial prejudices can be deducted from those preferences I'm not so sure. I'd at least like to think that's not the case.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  55. #29155
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    We're kinda beating a dead horse here, but I feel like you're being intentionally stubborn on this point.
    Maybe. I'm not trying to say my own preference applies universally (how could I?), I'm just saying what it is, and it feels you're telling me that I don't understand my own preferences or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    On hybrid vigor: did you read my post? Genetic divergence as related to hybrid vigor is not necessarily correlated to race. Therefore "beige" skin is not a signifier of fitness.
    Genetic variability is correlated with race.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ng1435


    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Of course, as I think you were getting at, beauty is advantageous regardless of industry.
    Well I'm trying to interpret this within the only context I'm familiar, which is a Western bias towards whiteness in what's considered attractive. The problem is this is conflated with a similar bias towards whiteness in pretty much every judgment of a person's worth (except maybe athletics for blacks, maths for asians, and tracking things in the forest for native americans), so I don't know if it's beauty or whiteness that gives whites the advantage.

    But also, I can see some woman who is beautiful is generally not going to be encouraged to use her mind, when the rewards for being beautiful are probably greater.


    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Will it be the same with trans/bi dating in a decade or two?
    It could see it going in that direction, yeah.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  56. #29156
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Oh, also, I should point out that there are plenty of black women who share cultural values with you, whatever those values may be.
    You're conflating my two points here. My bias against black women is based on their social status. IOW, given several otherwise equal women, I would date them according to social status, which is largely determined by race.

    But, if there was an amazing black women who loved hockey and arguing with Ong, I would date her over a white woman who hated hockey and thought Trump was the goat.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  57. #29157
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Are you sure? For sure there's evidence against the opposite, that is incest causing issues, but is there proof for as wide a pool as possible being beneficial? I think it's conceivable anything between those extremes could be more beneficial.
    My understanding is fairly basic, but goes as follows: There are harmful genes that tend to be bad for you. We all have some of these to more or less detriment. But these genes tend to be nondominant, meaning you need a matching pair for them to be expressed. The chance of inheriting a matching pair of bad genes is greater the more similar your mom is genetically to your dad. That's why cousins shouldn't marry because there's a good chance their kid will be sickly or retarded.

    Conversely, the more dissimilar two parents are genetically, the fewer of these harmful genes get paired together in their offspring.


    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Dating local colored women wasn't an option when I was young, my image of them was completely formed by pop culture, movies, tv etc.
    This was my experience as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Scientific studies tend to find symmetric facial structure, "average" features the most attractive across the globe, I'm sure culture, media, experiences etc shape us far more than our cognitive decisions, so I wouldn't at all be surprised with bias on our preferences, but whether eg. racial prejudices can be deducted from those preferences I'm not so sure. I'd at least like to think that's not the case.
    Yeah there's a lot of markers like symmetry, waist-to-hip ratio, long legs, etc.. that seem to universally go with beauty, and probably just as many that are culturally-determined.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  58. #29158
    Quote Originally Posted by boost
    Anyways, I brought up the subject, in response to Ong's post on trans issues because I think race based aberrations in the dating market are a worrying and fairly clear signal of lasting bigoted values from earlier more xenophobic times.
    I think it's natural, and to me, here you seem to imply with words like "worrying" that we should be ashamed of our natural urges. Ultimately, we're animals. Sexual attraction is the most powerful instinct that drives us, especially men.

    idk why I prefer foreign women. I suspect I buck the trend. I think it would be completely natural for people to have a preference towards their own race. Is this xenophobia? Perhaps in a purely basic way, yes. Throughout human history, war and rape go hand in hand. If there's a lingering natural fear of foreigners, that isn't surprising. People in the UK are scared of spiders. There is no reason for that other than lingering instincts from a time where spiders were dangerous. Some fears are natural.

    Should we be ashamed of our natural instincts? Should we be ashamed of our subconscious minds?

    You don't control you sexual preferences. Maybe they are partly shaped by your experiences, idk. In my case, I can't explain why I have the preference I do. I just do. I find foreign women, especially Asian women, particularly alluring. I can't imagine what experiences I've had that helped shape this preference.

    If poop and cocco say they're influenced by social status and media exposure, fair enough, but we're talking about pure sexual attraction here, right? When it comes to dating, cultural bias becomes a lot more important. We want someone with common interests, that becomes more important than pure sexual attraction. So suddenly culture plays a massive role. But when it comes to who we want to fuck, there are no such barriers, not to me anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  59. #29159
    "it's nature"

    "I just do"

    "we're just animals"

    I find it curious that these axioms would satisfy you, but if you refuse to have them challenged, I'm not sure what else there is to say.
  60. #29160
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Maybe. I'm not trying to say my own preference applies universally (how could I?), I'm just saying what it is, and it feels you're telling me that I don't understand my own preferences or something.
    I guess I should have directed it at both you and Ong-- this isn't you centric. I don't think anyone is good at understanding the causes of their preferences. In pursuit of our evolutionary goals, it's much more efficient to come up with a plausible story than it is to actually understand what shapes our preferences and actions.

    Anyways, I do want to thank everyone for their openness about racial attraction preferences-- I think it's pretty common for people to just deny it, because, well, it can be thought to have negative implications. Ofc we can never really know what's in someone else's head, but there are datasets available, for example from OkCupid, and a lot of people claiming to not have racial preferences are either lying or unaware.
  61. #29161
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    "it's nature"

    "I just do"

    "we're just animals"

    I find it curious that these axioms would satisfy you, but if you refuse to have them challenged, I'm not sure what else there is to say.
    Don't get me wrong, I like challenging questions, but if the answers are purely subjective then I'm not going to waste my time on them.

    I can't explain why, as a baby, I know to suck my Mom's titties to get milk. Why do baby crocs head straight for the water? The best I can do, or anyone, is to say "it's just instinct". So my heterosexual preference is "just instinct", I'm quite happy with that answer. Any other answer is no more satisfying. Why I find certain women more attractive than others, I really don't know. If my preference was matched by what I'm mostly exposed to, then I could see media playing an important role. But I don't find blonde bimbo cheerleader types all that attractive. Of course some are, but that general look just doesn't do it for me like a slitty eyed Jap with a flat nose. So I'm failing to see how media or culture has shaped my taste. I don't feel like I "learned" to fancy these type of girls. I just do. If that's unsatisfying to you, I can't help that. But nothing you can tell me will satisfy me more.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  62. #29162
    Ofc we can never really know what's in someone else's head, but there are datasets available, for example from OkCupid, and a lot of people claiming to not have racial preferences are either lying or unaware.
    I can see denial of racial preference being a lie people convince themselves of because nobody wants to consciously admit they have subconscious racial bias, especially if that preference is for one's own race. There are a lot of people who do not consider themselves racist, yet do not find any black women even remotely attractive. People don't want to think about that, it makes them uncomfortable with their subconscious self.

    I do hold some views that some people find bigoted, such as my opposition to Islam. But that doesn't stop me finding Islamic women attractive, more so than white women. Clearly my id doesn't give a fuck what my superego thinks.

    I don't lie awake at night worry about the conflict between my conscious and subconscious. I'm quite comfortable with who I am, with my many flaws.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  63. #29163
    There are myriad reasons your cookie could have crumbled the way it did while, under seemingly indistinct circumstances, the overall trend of cookie crumbling crumbled the other way. That your outcome is exceptional does not necessitate that the method was exceptional, just that the inputs were divergent.

    Back when it was all the rage to beat the left handedness out of children who had the misfortune of being guided by satan, some number of children resolved, in defiance of these cruel and unjust punishments, to not stop using their left hand. Maybe they'd work at using their godly hand enough so they could avoid the beatings, but then they'd go doodle devilish doodles and pen demonic verses all through the candlelit evening. These stubborn hell spawn had their relationship with their dominant hand shaped by the sadistic nuns just as much as the weaklings who bent their knee to god and abandoned the left handed path.
    Last edited by boost; 03-23-2021 at 08:29 PM.
  64. #29164
    Haha oops

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  65. #29165
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  66. #29166
    I know how to refloat it. Isolate the section of canal using, idk, two large sheets of plastic, making the isolated section as small as possible and making sure little water can mix from outside, and then pour a fuck ton of salt into the water to increase the density, and thus improve the buoyancy of the ship. Might as well also pump the fuel out and unload what can easily be taken off to further improve buoyancy.

    Can I have some money please?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  67. #29167
    Ha, when the civil engineers or whoever the experts that are gonna fix this fix it, are you gonna Elon Musk them and call 'em pedophiles in a fit of jealous rage?
  68. #29168
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I worked with a guy once who routinely committed collosal fuckups. It was so much fun.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  69. #29169
    They could pour mercury into the canal, that would definitely do the job, but I think it might be quite poisonous so probably not the best idea to release it into a waterway. That said, it's pretty easy to contain and retrieve, it's not like it mixes with water. Fuck it, go full on mercury bath. That would have the added benefit of looking absolutely awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Ha, when the civil engineers or whoever the experts that are gonna fix this fix it, are you gonna Elon Musk them and call 'em pedophiles in a fit of jealous rage?
    Not a bad idea. It didn't turn out too bad for him, did it? Richest cunt in the world, and not only that but people actually like him.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  70. #29170
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I worked with a guy once who routinely committed collosal fuckups. It was so much fun.
    My best work related fuck up was accidentally putting a horror movie on (Saw 2 I think) instead of a kid's film, it got about ten minutes in before they figured out it wasn't a trailer. There were four people watching... my ex gf's mother and friend, and some retard with carer. I got away with it, nobody made a fuss. But that could've landed the cinema a very large fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  71. #29171
    I don't recall any fuck ups when I was a ride operator at a theme park. That's a good thing. There was one young lad who was bored running the little train for the kiddies. He actually figured out how to speed it up (they didn't teach us), and caused it to derail and tip with kiddies on. Nobody hurt but you can imagine the horror on parents' faces as their crying child lies in a mangled mess. I have no idea how he made it go faster, fucker must actually understand mechanics, dunno what he was doing wasting his time running kid's rides. Needless to say, that was his last day.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  72. #29172
    Did you work with Elon Musk?

    Kiddie train derail>>electric cars and rockets go brrr>>hero diver is pedo>>richest man on earf
  73. #29173
    This guy I mentioned once found out that a truck he was supposed to use that day had run out of gas, so he decided to siphon some out of another truck. He couldn't get a siphon going so he finally took a deep breath and gave the hose a really big suck, and ended up inhaling about a gallon of gas into his lungs. The boss found him lying on the ground gasping for breath, and took him to hospital, where he spent a few days. The best part was they made him quit smoking lol.

    Another time he swung a large pipe around without looking (we worked in an irrigation company so there was always pipe involved) and hit the boss in the head. Clang! lol

    Another time he drove 40 miles out to a farm with the parking brake on. When we got there he smelled the smoke and thought they were having a barbecue. Turned out, no, it was the truck's tires that were melting.

    Man just thinking about this guy is making me laugh. And just to make it better, his actual real name was Wally Woo.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  74. #29174
    I believed you all the way until you said his name.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  75. #29175
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Did you work with Elon Musk?

    Kiddie train derail>>electric cars and rockets go brrr>>hero diver is pedo>>richest man on earf
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.

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