Something I should say more often

[Poopadoop]

No Coco you're supposed to find the evidence to support Ong's arguments yourself. Jeez man, get with it.

[CoccoBill]

No, but if you follow the discussion in the context of me thinking you were actually talking about this video, hopefully you'll see why I was surprised by your position.

Fair enough yes, I can see how me belittling the violence against that dude could ruffle your feathers. Now with this context, does what I said still seem unreasonable?

[CoccoBill]

I don't understand this viewpoint. I don't get why you have a tone of mockery towards white oppressed people. It seems to me like you think that white privilege means that when whites are oppressed, it's not as bad as when blacks are.

What I mean specifically is, that as long as there's the kind of racism that most blacks have to live with, whataboutism about the grievances of white people are laughable in comparison. Like I already said, I know there's racism against whites, just like every fukin body. I think white's are the least affected by racism out of everyone. Diverting the conversations from blm to The Great White Suffering as if they somehow compare is pathetic.

[OngBonga]

What I mean specifically is, that as long as there's the kind of racism that most blacks have to live with, whataboutism about the grievances of white people are laughable in comparison. Like I already said, I know there's racism against whites, just like every fukin body. I think white's are the least affected by racism out of everyone. Diverting the conversations from blm to The Great White Suffering as if they somehow compare is pathetic.

Nice use of the buzzword "whataboutism". This isn't me going "omg what about black people being racist too", this is me saying "white people are victims too".

I think white's are the least affected by racism out of everyone.

On average, of course, but that's no comfort to those who experience it. You're basically saying "well because you're white and you're less likely to be affected by racism, the racism you have suffered isn't as bad and we shouldn't worry about it because bigger fish to fry, hope you get better, soz mate".

Diverting the conversations from blm to The Great White Suffering as if they somehow compare is pathetic.

You've got me wrong, once again. This isn't about the "great white suffering", it's about the "great human suffering", of which blacks and whites are victims. How am I more woke than you on such matters?

You seem to think racism against whites isn't a problem. If I say "yes it fucking is", suddenly I'm all about the "great white suffering". This is what I mean about pushing me to the extreme. I mean poop thinks that saying "white racism is on the increase and is socially acceptable" is a radical thing to say. He thinks that's extreme. It's not. It's an observation.

[CoccoBill]

Nice use of the buzzword "whataboutism". This isn't me going "omg what about black people being racist too", this is me saying "white people are victims too".

You mean white lives matter?

On average, of course, but that's no comfort to those who experience it. You're basically saying "well because you're white and you're less likely to be affected by racism, the racism you have suffered isn't as bad and we shouldn't worry about it because bigger fish to fry, hope you get better, soz mate".

Should we start from the smallest problems or the biggest ones? And as it's been said many times, pretty much none of the items on the agenda of BLM would only help blacks, they'd work against all kinds of excessive police violence.

You've got me wrong, once again.

I know, entirely possible and the main reason I'm willing to continue this discussion. If you still feel I'm somehow dismissive of racism against whites because I feel it's a far smaller problem than racism against pretty much everyone else, I don't know what to say.

This isn't about the "great white suffering", it's about the "great human suffering", of which blacks and whites are victims. How am I more woke than you on such matters?

Well tbh I don't think you are.

Let me recap:

Me, poop, oskar, mmm: some fucked up shit against the blacks, cool that something is happening
You and wuf: but what about the whites
Me, poop, oskar, mmm: yeah that'll get fixed too
You and wuf: but what about the whites

You seem to think racism against whites isn't a problem. If I say "yes it fucking is", suddenly I'm all about the "great white suffering". This is what I mean about pushing me to the extreme. I mean poop thinks that saying "white racism is on the increase and is socially acceptable" is a radical thing to say. He thinks that's extreme. It's not. It's an observation.

After saying like 3 separate times how I acknowledge there's racism against whites, and how I think there's nothing cool or justifiable about that, it's does feel like you're not hearing me at all for some reason.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Me, poop, oskar, mmm: some fucked up shit against the blacks, cool that something is happening
You and wuf: but what about the whites
Me, poop, oskar, mmm: yeah that'll get fixed too
You and wuf: but what about the whites

We can all speak for ourselves.

This is not a numbers game.

Just because we don't have more people here who feel like BLM does not represent them, doesn't mean anything.

[MadMojoMonkey]

It's just triage. Heal the most immediate cases immediately, then heal the less immediate cases.


If there are messages of people calling for black superiority, that doesn't reflect what the world-wide protests are about.

If people are suggesting that anti-white racism either doesn't exist or isn't a problem, then that's not what the world-wide protests are about.


I'm sure there are bad actors on both sides. I'm sure there are idiots and opportunists taking advantage of both sides. I'm sure there are agitators trying to work to make both sides look worse than they are.
All of that is all the more reasons to be skeptical of extremist positions coming from both sides.

The vast majority of people are peacefully marching and protesting to demand less police violence. The movement is triggered specifically by what the data shows is a disproportionate percentage of black people being the target of overly aggressive police tactics and a judicial system that excuses police violence.

[oskar]

Racism is terrible.

[CoccoBill]

Terrorists win.

[oskar]

This thread is the reason why I refuse to engage honestly in this discussion: https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/st...38988206604289
This guy catalogues videos of police brutality during the BLM protests. He's at #475 in two weeks.

[OngBonga]

cocco is proving that racism against whites is socially acceptable, by the way.

[oskar]

End racism against whites :'(

https://youtu.be/A3z0GjT-_Vc?t=848

I would post the original, but it appears he has taken it down.

[OngBonga]

You mean white lives matter?

No, I think I like "fuck the system" as an all-inclusive catchphrase.

Should we start from the smallest problems or the biggest ones?

No, we should recognise that racism against blacks and racism against whites is the same problem.

If you still feel I'm somehow dismissive of racism against whites because I feel it's a far smaller problem than racism against pretty much everyone else, I don't know what to say.

I get that you're saying that racism against whites isn't cool. My problem is that you imply heavily that it's not a priority, that racism against blacks is a bigger problem. I don't agree, I consider them problems of equal magnitude because it's the same problem.

After saying like 3 separate times how I acknowledge there's racism against whites, and how I think there's nothing cool or justifiable about that, it's does feel like you're not hearing me at all for some reason.

Should we start from the smallest problems or the biggest ones?

There's the implication than these are different problems of different sizes that need dealing with separately. Whether you explicitly say it or not, you see racism against blacks as worse than racism against whites. That's the message you're giving me. That's why I'm not "hearing" you when you say one thing but imply another.

I think we're fucked, personally. I think the division is too deep, that we're heading for civil wars in USA and UK. The powers that be have been actively doing their best to create the conditions for social unrest. What's their game? My best guess is that they're preparing to impose fascism. First get everyone fighting, and then the state has the justification to clamp down, taking away freedoms in the process. They've been eroding our freedoms for a long time, the idea of free speech in 2020 is laughable. In the UK, some teenagers got arrested for saying mean things about Floyd on Twitter. We're already at the point where hurting someone's feelings can be a criminal offence.

But I don't know what their game is. But they are definitely playing a game, and we are definitely the pawns.

[CoccoBill]

There's the implication than these are different problems of different sizes that need dealing with separately. Whether you explicitly say it or not, you see racism against blacks as worse than racism against whites. That's the message you're giving me. That's why I'm not "hearing" you when you say one thing but imply another.

Sorry if I haven't been clear. I very explicitly mean that it's worse for the blacks. Not in the sense that a black person getting beat up for racial reasons is worse than a white person getting beat up for racial reasons, but that racism against blacks is far more deep-rooted, prevalent, systemic and severe. I for one can not count a single instance in my life where I'd been on the receiving end of racism, while for every single person of color here it's probably a weekly thing. And we don't even have a history of slavery or colonialism.

What I see on your videos (how I interpret them) are blacks retaliating against whites, I'm fairly sure those instances would not have happened if blacks had not first been the subject of racism from white people. If that's the case it doesn't make any of it justifiable, but also makes them a different thing than what I understand as racism. My hypothesis is this: blacks face racism from whites because they're black, whites face racism from blacks because they have been oppressing blacks. Fix the former, fix the latter.

[Poopadoop]

What I see on your videos (how I interpret them) are blacks retaliating against whites,

While I can understand their anger, I don't think it's forgivable for black people to take out their frustrations on the first white person they see.

To use an ananlogy, it's one thing for slaves to rise up and kill the slaveowner, it's quite another for them to kill some random guy walking by who is the same colour as the slaveowner.

If the white guy in the video had done something to provoke them, then that's different. But if he was just on his way to the shop for a loaf of bread, then beating his ass is not ok, no matter how oppressed you are.

[oskar]

My hypothesis is this: blacks face racism from whites because they're black, whites face racism from blacks because they have been oppressing blacks. Fix the former, fix the latter.

I would even say it's absolutely pathetic for a white person in the west to claim they are victims of racism by a minority. They might be subjected to prejudice, but the reason it's pathetic to call that racism is because you're in a position of power. You're not getting oppressed by blacks in a country where the republican senate is pure white, where the pure white administration is polling at 1% with ethnic minorities who are obviously not feeling represented and where you have a criminal justice system that is demonstrably systemically racist.

[CoccoBill]

Yes exactly, that's why it's hard to say anything without the context. If the attack was unprovoked and happened just because he was white, that's just as bad as any racist attack, no matter by whom against who. If he provoked it somehow, that makes it a bit different, at least in the aspect of how to prevent it from happening again. Still, regardless of what happened there, I see no parallels with systemic police brutality here, and no reason to even bring any of this up when talking about BLM.

[oskar]

[Poopadoop]

^^ It's been pretty surreal the last couple of weeks. Both the Daily Mail and even before them the Telegraph (two pretty right wing papers) have suddenly gotten all soft and cuddly. They're trashing the gov't over its handling of CV, and criticising Boris.

It's the UK equivalent of Fox News giving Trump the thumbs-down.

[Poopadoop]

^^ Guess it's the next best thing to chanting racist stuff at black players.

[Poopadoop]

Guy at the bottom obviously missing football.

[OngBonga]

My hypothesis is this: blacks face racism from whites because they're black, whites face racism from blacks because they have been oppressing blacks.

This is a profoundly different viewpoint to mine cocco, and pretty much is the basis of our differences.

You're blaming the white race for the oppression of blacks. This for me is the problem that white people have right now. Some white people feel guilty about historical racism, others say "it's got fuck all to do with me". When you then say to someone "yes it has because you're white", that my friend is racism.

[CoccoBill]

You're blaming the white race for the oppression of blacks. This for me is the problem that white people have right now.

I don't care about whose fault anything is, I'm just interested in solutions, which is what I see BLM being about. But let's entertain your notionfor a sec, who should be responsible then? No one? The blacks? *Shrug*? "Let's just hope it goes away, someone else's problem" is exactly the reason we are in this situation.

Some white people feel guilty about historical racism, others say "it's got fuck all to do with me". When you then say to someone "yes it has because you're white", that my friend is racism.

Some white people probably feel guilty about it for good reasons, many probably have no direct reason to be, and shouldn't. This has nothing to do with someone's snowflakey feelings of victimization though, this is about fixing things, where *everyone* should feel the responsibility.

[OngBonga]

I'm just interested in solutions, which is what I see BLM being about.

Ok. I disagree, I think BLM are making things worse. I think that is absolutely the intention.

The solution for me is for black and white people to unite and rise against those who create the systems that cause social division and racism. We're talking about systematic racism here. Systematic. The enemy is the system, and it's the enemy of us all.

who should be responsible then?

The people who create the systems we live in. That isn't "whites", it's the wealthy and powerful. Their actual race is a complete irrelevance.

*Shrug*? "Let's just hope it goes away, someone else's problem"

Let's imagine ong's position to be *shrug hope it goes away*. I know it's not going away. It might go away if we fought the root causes instead of just blaming each other.

[Poopadoop]

Seems like BLM has accomplished something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...f_George_Floyd

[CoccoBill]

The solution for me is for black and white people to unite and rise against those who create the systems that cause social division and racism. We're talking about systematic racism here. Systematic. The enemy is the system, and it's the enemy of us all.

Sounds an awful lot like BLM to me.

[wufwugy]

Sounds an awful lot like BLM to me.

That would be awesome.

In my experience, there's still quite a bit of statistics ignorance and racism.

[MadMojoMonkey]

How is it you manage to state the blindingly obvious in a way that seems confrontational, wuf?

People suck at understanding statistics. I've been saying for over 10 years that the single most important college course that should be a part of every single major is a probability and statistics course from a math department. We see statistics in almost every news broadcast, and basically no one understands what a confidence interval is, why it's vital to know it, and scandalous that it's not given. We are almost never told the breadth of the study which produced whatever statistic, how many participants, from what socioeconomic background, etc.

So that's a huge avenue we leave open for politicians and other community leaders to openly lie to us in ways that make us feel smart without actually learning anything.


Saying there's racism - or more broadly bigotry - is just blindingly obvious no matter where or when you look at human history.



All of which is just obvious.

But you attach some quote with BLM, and without making any direct connection, you're somehow linking the 2 things.


Your studies into how to persuade people have devolved into you learning how to manipulate (less intelligent) people (than you) with false connections and trite crap that sounds profound.
You used to be an intellectual. Now you're just adding your own from of propaganda.


I mean... who needs Kanye? Wuf for POTUS!

[wufwugy]

How is it you manage to state the blindingly obvious in a way that seems confrontational, wuf?

I have ideas. Why do you think?

persuade people

If I was attempting to persuade you guys, I would absolutely never post from this account again.

I'm here because I love and respect you guys and like having fun discussions (while learning more about you and myself too).

[MadMojoMonkey]

I have ideas. Why do you think?

The rest of my post is me explaining my point vis-a-vis your post I was responding to.

If I was attempting to persuade you guys, I would absolutely never post from this account again.

Do you think we're so blinded by your name that we don't take your words at their face value?
Do you think we're just "oh there goes wufwugy, wuffing it up again." and not responding to your stated ideas?

FWIW, I don't want to be that kind of person, so if you think I'm doing that, please feel invited call me out on it.

I'm here because I love and respect you guys and like having fun discussions (while learning more about you and myself too).

Sorry if I connected dots that don't directly connect...
like that one time when you posted a quote about BLM, then added a non-sequitur about broadly applicable human conditions, as if you are saying it's all proper and good to hold people in BLM to a higher / different standard than all of humanity.

But, then... what's your actual point?

What's your point when you post some comment and don't delete it, but tell people to ignore it?

How is that loving and respecting us?
'Cause that feels to me like some manipulation tactic, where you say something meant to incite a response, then pretend you didn't mean to say it when you obviously did mean to say it.
That comes across as the opposite of respectful, IMO. It comes across as a troll.

[OngBonga]

That's not what I see from BLM. I see radicals recruiting liberals to their cause. The cause it supremacy, but the message is equality. It's just the means to equality is blame, guilt, and censoring history.

BLM is a deep state tool.

I'm a lot more cynical than you guys, that's the main difference between us.

[wufwugy]

I hope CHAZ is more than just a drum circle.

If they can keep cops out for years, if they can get some people doing economic stuff who don't ever leave the zone (and stop paying taxes), if when there's a possible murder and they still keep cops out

Realistically it's probably just a summer festival. But a man can hope it's something more.

[wufwugy]

Anybody know of a twitter account that dutifully covers the legitimate peaceful side of the current happenings as well as the wrongly-violent side of the police?

Preferably somebody who dutifully sticks to what's legitimate.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Anybody know of a twitter account that dutifully covers the legitimate peaceful side of the current happenings as well as the wrongly-violent side of the police?

Preferably somebody who dutifully sticks to what's legitimate.

I avoid twitter as a source with 0 accountability and a magnet for fake news and rage posting.

It's still a clearly and plainly biased source, but the CNN live feed does an OK job of it.
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/geo...-20/index.html

There's a new page every day, so if you don't click that link today, it will be outdated.
A google search for "CNN George Floyd Live" will find the current page's news, IME.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I mean, I've been on the receiving end of racism, by police and by regular people on the street / bus / train.

The times I've been the subject of racism by police was clear white privilege. Twice, a cop has pulled me over, made a vaguely racist comment to me when I was pulled over in a black neighborhood and then didn't write me a ticket.
So they were probably going to do one of your average, "driving while black" interactions, then got stymied when they accidentally pulled over a white driver.
Yes, is racism. Is hard for me to fight that. Am I supposed to demand they give me a ticket, or pull me from my vehicle and pat me down and search my vehicle? No, obv. that is not in my best interests in that moment.
Could I report the officer? Get their name and badge number and report that vaguely racist comment they made? To what end? Will that officer be fired or even reprimanded? Almost certainly not.


About 2 times a year, some pissed off person will start shouting how they hate white people / are taking no more shit from white people. I look around and I'm the only white person on the bus, so I definitely feel like my ears are the intended audience for those obviously racial comments. A couple of times, I've tried to engage that person, telling them whatever happened to them is BS, and that I hope no other white people give them any shit. It's not well received.
OK. So what? Someone said some things that weren't about me, but which seemed to be directed at me and to vilify me.

That happens regularly... if you can call 2 or 3 times a year regular. So what?


This does not even compare to the stories that every black person I've been comfortable enough with to talk candidly about these issues.
Does not compare.

So when I hear white people talking about anti-white racism, I'm just wondering
A) if they mean what I've experienced
B) how regular is it they have these experiences
C) have they ever taken the time to befriend a black person to the point of being able to talk candidly about these issues
and D) have they had those conversations?

'Cause I don't understand at all how anyone with a life story remotely close to mine, in the part of the world where I live, can honestly assert there's no disparity in what racism there is, and to what extent it pervades the daily lives of black people, but tangentially affects white people (negatively) on a very occasional basis.


So if you want to have an adult conversation about this, then rise to the challenge, and speak candidly about what anti-white racism has affected you, and how often it happens. If you're only willing to make vague allusions to it, without even trying to understand or seek understanding, then that signals to me that you're only interested in your own pity party, and to minimize the actual impact of racism on the greater world.

[wufwugy]

Thank you for sharing. That was good to read.

So if you want to have an adult conversation about this, then rise to the challenge, and speak candidly about what anti-white racism has affected you, and how often it happens. If you're only willing to make vague allusions to it, without even trying to understand or seek understanding, then that signals to me that you're only interested in your own pity party, and to minimize the actual impact of racism on the greater world.

I was a hair's breadth away from losing one of my jobs because of my white skin.

On a regular basis, I don't have freedom to speak my opinion because of my white skin.

There's been a pretty big ongoing mess at my work because one of the employees blames his problems on systemic racism. For right or wrong, he scared the crap out of the company owner. The company owner then stopped doing anything about our delinquent employee, because the company owner was (for right or wrong) afraid of what the delinquent employee would do to us by using race.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Thank you also, for sharing.


What do you know of the racism black people face?
Specifically,
C) have you ever taken the time to befriend a black person to the point of being able to talk candidly about these issues
and
D) have you had those conversations?

[wufwugy]

What do you know of the racism black people face?

From personal experience, I once overheard Obama get called a nigger.

The rest of my exposure is based on what I hear. An example of racism against black people that I believe is true is Patrice O'Neal's story about how he and 3 other black guys got railroaded into prison because of a lying white girl and an insufficiently considerate judge/jury.

C) have you ever taken the time to befriend a black person to the point of being able to talk candidly about these issues
and

I know the black guy I previously mentioned extremely well. I've had black girlfriends. I have some black family.

D) have you had those conversations?

With the guy previously mentioned that I know extremely well, we've discussed race a lot, but we never dig extremely deep because I do not feel that would go over well.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Lets set aside any one-sided things you heard and focus on conversations.

If you have black family members, then now is a great time to reach out to them and tell them that you have honest questions about what it means to be black in America. Tell them that you want to talk with someone you can trust to hear your questions without judging you, and to provide answers so that you can better understand your own family.


'Cause your story is not trivial. Neither is theirs.


When you don't know what something is, you have no basis to judge whether or not it's similar to what you already understand without studying it.

This is worth studying.

The world is kinda united in shouting about a single issue for the first time in history.
It's worth all of us to understand what they're shouting about.

[wufwugy]

That's one of the best posts in a long time.

[OngBonga]

I watched the video ong. I don't know what the guy had done to deserve this, but uncool in any case. Is this supposed to prove whites everywhere are oppressed and blm is bullshit? I don't get it.

No, but if you follow the discussion in the context of me thinking you were actually talking about this video, hopefully you'll see why I was surprised by your position.

[OngBonga]

The problem is, you guys take my comments to the extreme. I have a problem with the political aspect of BLM, and you guys interpret that as "BLM is bullshit". You actively push me to the extremes and I end up arguing about how I'm not actually saying what you think I'm saying.

This pretty much sums up the entire left vs right discourse around the world.

And poop, you do this a lot. You pretend to want to know about something, and expect me to do the digging for you. I don't give a fuck what you think, I'm not interested in proving anything to you. You either give a shit or you don't, and if you do, you'll dig. idk if you just don't want to face the reality of racism against whites because it doesn't suit your narrative, or if you really think it's not a problem. It isn't a problem like racism against blacks, however if people are just going "whatever" when they see racism against whites then it will progressively get worse. The racist are empowered.

Racism needs to be dealt with in all aspects of life. BLM should be condemning this, they should be actively fighting racism against all people. But nobody gives a fuck about whites because we're fucking privileged.

[Poopadoop]

The problem is, you guys take my comments to the extreme. I have a problem with the political aspect of BLM, and you guys interpret that as "BLM is bullshit". You actively push me to the extremes and I end up arguing about how I'm not actually saying what you think I'm saying.

Today's discussion isn't about the broader political motiviation of BLM, as much as you wish it was since you talked yourself into a corner so quickly.

Today's discussion was prompted by your "racism against white people is increasing and it's socially acceptable." bullshit. So let's keep that in context.

This pretty much sums up the entire left vs right discourse around the world.

If "racism against white people is increasing and its socially acceptable" is somehow ambiguous I ain't seeing it. I think that's about as clear and unambiguous as it gets.

And poop, you do this a lot. You pretend to want to know about something, and expect me to do the digging for you.

Right, cause it's my fault you don't provide evidence to support your argument. How lazy of me to expect you to back up your own claims.

I don't give a fuck what you think, I'm not interested in proving anything to you. You either give a shit or you don't, and if you do, you'll dig. idk if you just don't want to face the reality of racism against whites because it doesn't suit your narrative, or if you really think it's not a problem. It isn't a problem like racism against blacks, however if people are just going "whatever" when they see racism against whites then it will progressively get worse. The racist are empowered.

Racism needs to be dealt with in all aspects of life. BLM should be condemning this, they should be actively fighting racism against all people. But nobody gives a fuck about whites because we're fucking privileged.

Apparently you do care what I think or you wouldn't have gone on to add all this wingeing about how hard it is to be white these days.