Theist or Atheist?

[JetA_Jockey]

and boost, i don't see anything wrong with playing poker

[Greedo017]

The previous entire page 3 was the biggest waste of my life to read, it is discourses like that that make talking about religion a waste of time.

Rabid- I don't really know what to say to you. It makes me sad that you, and by extension I'm sure millions of other christians, won't or aren't capable of thinking about or considering alternative answers to questions about your faith, but instead default to some rote answer about believing in the bible and its all up to god. I don't think you truly understand a single implication of your beliefs, and I don't think you truly have thought about what god is telling you, morals, what is right and wrong in the world, etc, any more deeply than I think about what I want for breakfast.

Side note #1. Relativism, meaning the view that "hey you believe this I believe that, everyone's beliefs are cool", is a terrible thing. Sure, certain beliefs that theists have, I can't argue with or prove wrong. But some of them I damn sure can argue with and prove wrong. Many things that differ between theists and atheists can be argued and proved right, wrong, possible, impossible, using logic.

I think how you respond to this will determine whether or not its worth continuing. Based on what is said in the bible, a girl who was born to wicked parents, locked in a box until age 20 then killed, will go to hell because she was never exposed to jesus and therefore is not a believer. Is this something that a just god would do? "i just believe in the bible, that's up to god judgement" is not an acceptable answer. You have a brain, use it.

[Rabid Dog]

Ok, new morning and I've got work to do. I dont have the time to keep going back and forth on this. But I will answer this last question from you Greed001.

The previous entire page 3 was the biggest waste of my life to read, it is discourses like that that make talking about religion a waste of time.

Rabid- I don't really know what to say to you. It makes me sad that you, and by extension I'm sure millions of other christians, won't or aren't capable of thinking about or considering alternative answers to questions about your faith

Exactly why would I, the answers are right there in the bible about my faith, there is no need for me to veer from that. At least you or no one else has been able to show me the need. Just going by how you feel it should be does not give me reason to veer from what the bible says. Sorry

but instead default to some rote answer about believing in the bible and its all up to god. I don't think you truly understand a single implication of your beliefs, and I don't think you truly have thought about what god is telling you, morals, what is right and wrong in the world, etc, any more deeply than I think about what I want for breakfast.

Then I call your bet here and raise you. Show me your written documentation of where it specifically says that GOD says if your a good person he is going to let you into heaven. That is the discussion Boost and I were having. And I'm not talking about, well this is the way I see it type proof. I'm talking about written documentation. You dont have to copy and paste it down. Im going to make it easier than that for you. Just post a link or tell me where to find this, or directions of some sort. Point me in the direction and I will personally go and check it out. I dont know, you may be able to find it in the Islam writtings or the Muslim, Buhdism, Atheism. Somewhere, well I doubt it would be in the atheism book because then that would be admitting there is a GOD and that would be kinda defeating you guys purpous then, right? I've made it clear I'm no theologian, I will add to that I'm not great at memorizing things. So all I can do is go to the source I use and find the answer. So point me to the source you use, where you find GOD says all good people will go to heaven, in whatever book you found it in and I will check it out. If I cant find it on the internet I'll look at my local library and see if they have it.

I think how you respond to this will determine whether or not its worth continuing. Based on what is said in the bible, a girl who was born to wicked parents, locked in a box until age 20 then killed, will go to hell because she was never exposed to jesus and therefore is not a believer. Is this something that a just god would do? "i just believe in the bible, that's up to god judgement" is not an acceptable answer. You have a brain, use it.

Again another misinterpretation. I will not copy and paste it here because it would make an already long reply even way longer, but here is a link that might clear this up for you. http://www.carm.org/40_objections/40-3.htm#_1_29 That might or might not be what you want to hear.

Now like I said, I have money to go try and make. If you can find some passage where it says GOD says all good people will go to heaven, let me know where it is and I will go check it out. I'm not opposed to looking things up. And you shouldnt be either. You have a search engine, Im sure you can type google into it and find whatever answers you are looking for. If you dont believe what is on the internet and want to know what the bible says about something, go spend 5 bucks at wally world and get one. If you dont have 5 bucks, Im pretty sure the Gideons would be happy to send you one for free. And I would always try to verify what I'm told, I dont even take my pastors word when he quotes scripture. I go to the source and verify what he said. Way too many people christian and non christian tend to twist the scripture around to meet their own personal needs, makes them feel better. So I wouldnt expect you to take my word for anything I have said. In fact I incourage you not to take my word on anything I have said, I incourage you to look it up and make sure what I said was actually what was wrote in the bible. Or if its a different discussion then verify what I said about that discussion.

No one here needs me or anyone else to keep going back and forth with you or anyone else on the subject really. The link I posted within this post probably has all the answers to whatever question you want to throw out to me or Jet or anyone else. Its simple to go there and find them. And if you dont want to scroll back up and click the button, then here is the link again. http://www.carm.org/objections.htm

This thread really has started to turn into the exact reason I try not to get into these discussions, as someone stated its a never ending thread. So I think Im going to bow out of it and just leave the link above to answer what ever question you may want to pose. I will however like I said, if you want to point me to your documentation of GOD saying all good people will go to heaven, I will go and check it out to verify it for my own sake.

For now though, Im off to try and make some money. Everyone have a nice day.

[Toe]

The bible is not the words of god, it is the words of man, written by man. Jesus Christ, the greatest con artist the world has ever seen.

[pgil]

now that is a great link. look, david killed a woman's husband because he wanted to do her, and then he proceeded to. but he said, whoops, sorry, my bad. so god said, thats okay buddy. all is forgiven. wtf is that. as long as hitler says he's sorry for attempting to eradicate god's chosen people from the earth, he can get into heaven. now that I find a little hard to believe.

and as for god not changing, bull. why is it that under jesus' rule, you are now able to eat pork, you do not have to be circumcised. there are many other rules that have changed. seems like a perfect god would not need to have his rules tweaked.

[pgil]

If this were true, then He did a heck of a job making his mother give birth to him, as a virgin(Isaiah 7:14 ), in the exact town quoted in Micah 5:2 , oh yeah and also part of the Davidic bloodline (Jeremiah 23:5-6, Isaiah 11:10 ). Riding into town was predicted by Daniel, not only accurately but he pinpointed the exact day it was to be done.(Daniel 9:25 / also Zech9:9)

now, jeremiah 23:5-6 says nothing about Jesus, son of mary, being descended from david. interestingly, it also says that "In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely". israel is in no way dwelling safely, nor has it/they been since the time of jesus. kinda seems like they missed on that one. either that or your christ is a false messiah like all of the others that came before him and claimed the same.

now as for isaiah 7:14, the really neat thing about that is, the bibles that were translated from greek all have that little misnomer in them. you see, the word in greek that can be translated as 'virgin' also has a more common, proper if you will, translation, it means 'young girl'. funny that.

as for mary actually being a virgin, come on. how long was she married before she conceived as a 'virgin'?? how many newlywed couples do you know of that wait a while after getting married to have sex, you know, just to be certain.

now, as for jesus dying for my sins. this means that I no longer have any sins, and since i had yet to be born, it must cover all sins that i will ever commit, therefore regardless of what i do in this life, i am golden. i have paid for my sins in advance. i can be the biggest creep in the world, and still get a free pass. sweet. what a joke.

now, as for scaring people with the prospect of going to hell if they dont believe what you believe, especially young people, that is the worst thing that i can think of. saying to a 5 year old that if you dont believe this shit, you will burn for all eternity. and that your 5 year old friend, the one that is jewish, he's burning. your neighbour, the nice old man next door who always volunteers and helps out the neighbourhood, but doesnt really believe in god, he's burning. that is by far one of the worst things that you can do to a small child. it is a disgusting scare tactic, and anyone who does it should be extremely ashamed of themselves.

and now i leave you with two quotes.
"It was a piece of subtle refinement that God learned Greek when he wanted to become a writer - and that he did not learn it better."
"The devil has the widest perspective for God, and that is why he keeps so far away from him - the devil being the olded friend of knowledge."

[JetA_Jockey]

I know i've read that people who are not exposed to "The Law" aren't held accountable for it (i.e. before the days of moses).
This society breed people who believe they know, or strive to know how it all works. If you want to pick apart everything quoted in the Bible have at it, believe what you will, and if you were right, then you can say "I told you so" if we bump into each other in the nothingness that is yet to come.

Situational ethics has gotten society believing that a human being doesnt come into being until the fetus reaches a certain stage, as if it took anything to make it grow (except for the mother to be alive etc).
All we need now is suicide booths on every street corner.

[JetA_Jockey]

The new covenant brought with Jesus was (from my interpretation) that Gentiles (not Jews) can become part of the faith, but did'nt have to practice Jewish tradition in the process (i.e. circumcision)

And as far as Him dying for our sins, its only if you accept it as truth. When you stand to hold account of your life, His sacrifice will cover you in your transgressions, as an intercessor, because you are one of His flock.

*edit* added:

Also when you accept Jesus, He lives through you, so if you really have Christ in your life then you have the Spirit guiding you away from wicked things.
It's sad to know that many people don't learn humility until their last few minutes on earth, when they realize that they aren't invincible.

[Pelion]

I believe that one day I will die and that will be the end of my existance.

Christians belive that they will live forever and "walk streets paved with gold" or w/e.

Who has the biggest problem accepting they are not invincible?

[azureXsmurF]

So Im curious rabbid, what is a true believer? How about a muslim. They believe in god, thier god really isnt THAT different then yours, same with jews. The teachings are all basically the same, they are telling you to be a good person, ect ect. Like if youre born in almsot anywhere in the middle east, you are going to be born into islam. People who do have access to christianity problably wont get it until later in life, and by that time islam is firmly engrained in thier brain. So are you telling me that most of the people born in the middle east are damned to hell. Dont you see the foolishness in this? What about 'believers' who do less then moral things in thier life? Did all the popes go to heaven? If you know anything about christian history (true christian history.. Im not sure how much of this you can learn at your local church) you would know theres quite a bit of corruption and intrigue in the church. Do these people simply have to repent on thier death bed and they get to walk the gold paved streets? How about the person that is a great upstanding person, lets say princess diana was not a 'believer'... are you telling me she would go to hell? Yet a corrupt pope that repents would get in? This is ridiculous, and if this is the way that god works, then I say fuck him.

Dont you see how much of an obvious 'recruitment' tool this is? Its pretty sick... scaring people into believing, and of course donating... JetA is wrong, religion hasnt become a big business, it always has been.. hah..

Didn't read much past this post... just wanted to say the general definition of "true believer" is someone who believes something whoeheartedly and is probably never going to stray from their belief.

EDIT: Just as a side note... it's hopeless for hardened skeptics to argue with true believers, and vice versa. Skeptics won't believe anything that comes from a book that can't be proved as fiction or nonfiction (part of the faith is to believe it is the word of God), and true believers will brush off anything the skeptic says as irrelevant to the argument because it's not in their Book and/or part of their faith.

[boost]

Then I call your bet here and raise you. Show me your written documentation of where it specifically says that GOD says if your a good person he is going to let you into heaven. That is the discussion Boost and I were having. And I'm not talking about, well this is the way I see it type proof. I'm talking about written documentation. You dont have to copy and paste it down. Im going to make it easier than that for you. Just post a link or tell me where to find this, or directions of some sort. Point me in the direction and I will personally go and check it out. I dont know, you may be able to find it in the Islam writtings or the Muslim, Buhdism, Atheism. Somewhere, well I doubt it would be in the atheism book because then that would be admitting there is a GOD and that would be kinda defeating you guys purpous then, right? I've made it clear I'm no theologian, I will add to that I'm not great at memorizing things. So all I can do is go to the source I use and find the answer. So point me to the source you use, where you find GOD says all good people will go to heaven, in whatever book you found it in and I will check it out. If I cant find it on the internet I'll look at my local library and see if they have it.

Did you not listen to a god damn thing I said? We dont have to find proof of this, you have to find proof that it says otherwise. That wahs the whole damn point of me asking you to quote scripture. Nowhere does it say that you have to accept jesus christ as your savior to get into heaven. That was your interpretation. We are not saying that just because you are good you will get into heaven, we are saying that you are saying this is not true, yet you dont have any support for this. Once again, we have nothing that needs to be proven, we are not trying to state a false fact. We have done nothing but infer as to what gets you into heaven, you have then responded every time saying that you dont see anything in the bible saying that you get in for just being good. We didnt ask you that, we asked you what it takes to get into heaven and we wanted to know where yo uare getting this from. You seem to believe taht you have to accept jesus christ as your savior, and you believe this because of the bible, however it does not say that in the bible. Thats how you chose to read a passage. I can see how you would read that passage and take that from it, however I pointed out a clear and logical way to read the passage which would imply that you only have to be a good and moral person to gain entry into heaven. Considering the fact that there are millions and millions of people on earth taht will never encounter christianity, and never hear of jesus christ, to me, this is a more logical interpretation. Im not saying its the right one, Im not saying you are wrong, but you are stating something as a fact and standing by it short of any backing. Show me where it says you WONT get into heaven for just being a good person, because its not up to us to prove you will, we never said you will, we just offered the possible alternative.

[boost]

I know i've read that people who are not exposed to "The Law" aren't held accountable for it (i.e. before the days of moses).
This society breed people who believe they know, or strive to know how it all works. If you want to pick apart everything quoted in the Bible have at it, believe what you will, and if you were right, then you can say "I told you so" if we bump into each other in the nothingness that is yet to come.

do you clip your finger nails and get hair cuts? Do you ever eat eggs for breakfast? Do you wear condoms? How do you feel about 'the pill'? How do you feel about masturbation? How do you feel about a woman that got raped and contracted aids in the process and got pregnant? She should have the baby knowing full well thats its gonna be born with aids, and be a brutal reminder of the man that took away so much from her. How do you feel about artifical insemination? To 'play god' (as you imply we are doing) on one end of the spectrum has to be just as wrong as to do it on there other end right?

Sorry but your ideas against abortion are just as well thought out as not teaching evolution in school, or refusing to teach anything but abstinence and calling it 'sex ed' in our schools.

[Rabid Dog]

Did you not listen to a god damn thing I said? We dont have to find proof of this, you have to find proof that it says otherwise. That wahs the whole damn point of me asking you to quote scripture. Nowhere does it say that you have to accept jesus christ as your savior to get into heaven.

John 14:6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. The Father is in heaven, so by this passage Jesus say's no one comes to the Father except through him.

Acts 4:10-12
10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone.[a]' 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Again, this is probably not going to prove anything to you. The problem we have here is we are all holding tight to what we believe in. No one is going to budge either way. Ive given reference points, but neither of us interpret them the same way. So all we are doing is fighting a loosing battle with each other. Personally, I would rather get back to what this board is about, and thats poker. Really if I wanted to get into theological discussions (which I really dont) then I would visit a board dealing with those subjects. And since what Ive given you has not given you the answer you are wanting, even though in my mind it has, then it might be best for you to visit one of those boards and see if they can answer you in a better more efficiant way than I thought I did.

[Rabid Dog]

As far as the question about the millions who have never heard about the Lord or been exposed to his word. I covered that in the link above. I just posted the link so you would have had to do some leg work by clicking on it. But here is a brief of it for you.

In Romans 2:11-16 it speaks about those who have never heard the Law of God and how they will be judged according to the law that is written in their hearts.

[boost]

no.. Im not sticking to any interpretation. Once again, Im offering another logical interpretation, once again it is not said that you have to accept jesus christ as your savior. Hell you could even read all this as saying that you have to speak to jesus to get into heave. "Yo J-man, Im tryin to come kick it up there in H-town, I hear yall have some killer parties, holla back"... heh... Im not saying this is what was meant when the bible was written, all Im saying is that what you are saying is not neccessarilly what was meant. And you are the one being stuborn. I never said you are wrong, but I have not once seen you admit the possibility that the way you are reading is not what was meant when it was written. And again I ask you why you chose to interpret it in a way that damns billions of people? Again Im not saying you are wrong, Im just asking why you see thing in such a spiteful way.

[Rabid Dog]

So what you are asking here is that I say something to the effect " I could be interpreting this wrong and it could mean something totally different than what I interpret it as saying", right?

[JetA_Jockey]

I know i've read that people who are not exposed to "The Law" aren't held accountable for it (i.e. before the days of moses).
This society breed people who believe they know, or strive to know how it all works. If you want to pick apart everything quoted in the Bible have at it, believe what you will, and if you were right, then you can say "I told you so" if we bump into each other in the nothingness that is yet to come.

do you clip your finger nails and get hair cuts? Do you ever eat eggs for breakfast? Do you wear condoms? How do you feel about 'the pill'? How do you feel about masturbation? How do you feel about a woman that got raped and contracted aids in the process and got pregnant? She should have the baby knowing full well thats its gonna be born with aids, and be a brutal reminder of the man that took away so much from her. How do you feel about artifical insemination? To 'play god' (as you imply we are doing) on one end of the spectrum has to be just as wrong as to do it on there other end right?

Sorry but your ideas against abortion are just as well thought out as not teaching evolution in school, or refusing to teach anything but abstinence and calling it 'sex ed' in our schools.

So there are justified abortions? Theres no justification for rape, but does the baby born of it have to suffer the death penalty as well?
I don't really take the catholic approach on birth control (or lack thereof), since sperm/eggs dont grow into children on their own. Used or unused the body recycles through it anyway.

so anyhow, its peanut butter jelly time

[Pelion]

So there are justified abortions?

Yes

[boost]

So there are justified abortions?

Yes

[Warpe]

You guys do realize that this is the neverending thread, don't you?

[boost]

The thing is that there is no concious life as we know it at the times when abortions happen. If you want to argue that there is a soul in the baby the second its concieved, well argue all you want but its a factless arguement. But if you want to go with "theres the potential for life", then you are chosing to draw the line where you want it drawn because that best suits you. Because sperm have hte potential to form life. I dont get how you get to draw this line of when its ok to prevent pregnancy and when its not.

Id also like to compound the situation of the woman getting raped. Take away the aids, and add a husband, not just any husband, but a husband excited about starting a family, something hes always dreamt of. Now we can ruin further destory the lives of these newly weds, or we can end (notice I refrain from using 'kill' seeing as something needs to be alive to be killed) something that only has the potential to be alive.

save whats left of 2, or save 1 potential.........

Also there is no talk of abortion in the bible, anywhere. You know why? Because it didnt exist, so once more this is not something you can claim you learned from the bible.

[vqc]

I dont get how you get to draw this line of when its ok to prevent pregnancy and when its not.


Also there is no talk of abortion in the bible, anywhere. You know why? Because it didnt exist, so once more this is not something you can claim you learned from the bible.

For number one u should probably do some studying of both sides of Roe v. Wade and PP vs. Casey. They drew the line at viability.

If you believe that abortion is the murder of an unborn child, then you can definitely "learn" from the bible that abortion is wrong.

[boost]

but to murder I assume you speak of homocide, meaning the killing of a homosapien. If you define a couple cells with the possability to form life a homosapien, I think you are confused. And in no way shape or form do these cells constitute a living being. Therefore as I said previously something that is not living cannot be killed.

[Warpe]

Also there is no talk of abortion in the bible, anywhere. You know why? Because it didnt exist, so once more this is not something you can claim you learned from the bible.

I seriously doubt that (that abortion didn't exist). Their methods were just very crude. Women throughout history have always found ways to lose babies they don't want, usually by forcing a miscarriage.

[vqc]

If you define a couple cells with the possability to form life a homosapien, I think you are confused. And in no way shape or form do these cells constitute a living being. Therefore as I said previously something that is not living cannot be killed.

at around 12 weeks u can tell a babys gender.
Does that constitute life?

Wat constitutes life to u?
Do u understand wat viability means?

[a500lbgorilla]

I AM GOD

praise me now bitches

Get down on your knees and praise my lord, bi-atch.

[boost]

yes this is true, but abortions as we know it dont exist. And Im still sure theres no mention in the bible.

[|~|ypermegachi]

ya isnt that what i said? Ok i didnt explicitly say repent, but it was very much implied... and its still fucked up if the whole repent on your deathbed thing skips the heaven queue while the unbeliever who has led a life of helping old ladies cross the street is condemned to hell

people who think living a bad life and repenting just before you die is in for a surprise, given that christianity is true. those people are going straight to hell. i think when Jesus forgives the guy crucified with Him that people over use it. the moral of that story is that Jesus will forgive anyone, if they really mean it.

living a bad life, intending to repent just before you die is dishonest, and God will nail you for it.

also, depending on the denomination of Christianity, people who have never heard the gospel can still enter heaven. if God is just, he wouldn't let someone like Ghandi go to hell.

[!Luck]

Whenever I see these types of discussions, I wonder what is the point? A far more interesting and productive discussion would be, one that see's how one's beliefs affect their personal choices. No matter what you believe we have all seen hypocrites, we have seen logical people breaking down and acting irrational and we have seen religious people act against their beliefs. Saying you believe in essence means nothing. Through one's actions can we truly see that person's belief and what makes that person them. In my short life, I have noticed that the more people try to convince someone of their own view, the more it seems that they are desperately trying to convince themselves.

Example: Ever notice how a man/woman talks about a person they say they can't like (love) and they tell you all the reasons why they just can't like them. Who are they trying to convince you? Or themselves?

So to all who read this I pose the question, how do your beliefs come out in your actions?

P.S On another side note, I find it quite interesting how some people say they lead a good life, yet they don't define good. What is good, for most people it is the opposite of evil, where evil implies anti-divinity. Just a thought for you Boost.

P.S.S and yes I realize that I don’t define ‘productive’ and that I am just as ‘guilty’ as everyone else.

[JetA_Jockey]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

on the subject of potential life, if an aborted baby weren't in the inevitable process of life, then why do abortion doctors reassemble the body parts of the child when they are finished? It's alot more than just simple cells that they are killing. Sperm dies on its own, so do eggs, when they come together though, life happens, and my opinion is that no one has the right to take that from them.

off subject: is anyone playing on the holdempoker freeroll tonight?

[azureXsmurF]

yes this is true, but abortions as we know it dont exist. And Im still sure theres no mention in the bible.

Well as far as most churches are concerned, the moment of conception there is a human life with a soul. My belief it is still only a POTENTIAL human life while in the womb until it's developed enough to be able to breath on it's own outside the womb, barring severe medical problems. Most places you can't have abortions past the first trimester, which is basically 12 weeks. (when you can determine the fetus's gender)

[JetA_Jockey]

this site shows the different stages, and abortion types performed.
*warning graphic*
http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/

[azureXsmurF]

this site shows the different stages, and abortion types performed.
*warning graphic*
http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/

Ewwwwww >_< I've never heard of some of those, I've never heard of anyone getting an abortion past around the first 3 months. But the article does say there's the possibility of the fetus being able to survive after like 20 weeks but I'll double check

EDIT:
"20 weeks - The child can hear and recognize mother's voice. Though still small and fragile, the baby is growing rapidly and could possibly survive if born at this stage. Fingernails and fingerprints appear. Sex organs are visible. Using an ultrasound device, the doctor can tell if the child is a girl or a boy. The one on the left is a baby girl."

So basically I think past this point I could understand an abortion being considered murder. But wouldn't an abortion this late in a pregnancy be extremely rare? You would think most women who would get one would have it done early on in the pregnancy, preferably ASAP.

[JetA_Jockey]

You would think most women who would get one would have it done early on in the pregnancy, preferably ASAP.

http://www.time.com/time/archive/pre...,949828,00.htm

more info
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...07/ai_n9449935
http://www.natreformassn.org/statesman/04/reagnlgc.html

[pgil]

wow, graphic images, really convincing.

i think the more interesting question is this, who is a 'better' person. the one who lives a good life with the belief that he/she will be judged based on what they have done after they die, and will be rewarded/punished as a result. or someone who lives a good life with the belief that this is all there is, and so you had better make it count. no rewards/punishments.
NB. for the sake of argument, lets assume both did their good deeds outside of the awareness of others.

[JetA_Jockey]

thats a great question, I can honestly say that I couldn't pick who is "better", since I have a hard enough time keeping up with my own personal motivations and +/- deeds. If they both live a good life, based on good morals and just a general kindness to humanity then its definitely not a waste on either of their parts, that I know for sure.

[pgil]

but one is motivated, at least in part by reward/punishment. thats the point, isnt it. if you are following all of those rules, living a good life, all so you can win in the afterlife, you arent really living a good life. you are playing a role, and your god should see this and should judge you accordingly. kind of a catch-22 situation isnt it.

[JetA_Jockey]

Well, good deeds dont get you into heaven, thats what grace is about. We make God happy by submitting to His will. This passage sums it up for me.

Micah 6:8. He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly, and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

From my personal experience, before I ever studied in the Word of God, I cared about people in general, and did/do as much as I can to help people. In that case, i wasnt spurred on by adding tally marks to my soul scorecard. The Bible has taught me a different aspect on life, and core ethics that arent afloat in modern day society.

[potdragn]

...and to walk humbly with your God.

Humble - Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.

This does not seem to be the way things are going right now...most people are walking around parading god and forcing others to believe their views and only their vews. Christian, muslim, jew, hindu whatever, all are guilty of this.

[vqc]

...and to walk humbly with your God.

Humble - Marked by meekness or modesty in behavior, attitude, or spirit; not arrogant or prideful.

This does not seem to be the way things are going right now...most people are walking around parading god and forcing others to believe their views and only their vews. Christian, muslim, jew, hindu whatever, all are guilty of this.

im sure its possible to find the atheists guilty of this too.

[JetA_Jockey]

I agree with you on that potdragn, it applies in the same way as an atheist will tell a theist to be open minded, while the theist is thinking the same thing about the atheist.

Humility is a key in the Christian faith, many do not apply themselves to this, believe me I know, I see them at my work fairly often. I always say, "I guess I missed the part where Jesus rode around in G4 to spread the Gospel"
Where some evangelists are having their main issue with spreading the Gospel, is in that they aren't applying humility first (putting others before self), and connecting on completely different level.

[boost]

Im sorry but the truth about atheist vs theist being open minded. I can understand that you would see it the same from your side of the table as I wouldt.. but it rarely seems to be that way. Im not saying your beliefs are untrue, hell I even admit they are possible and they do indeed intrigue me. I have no wish to become a christian, but all of this is interesting. However it seems much more common that its the religious person in the discussion that is not willing to accept that its POSSIBLE.

What I have been saying in this thread this whole time is that the background of FTR is beige, another main color on the site is accents of dark blue, and vincents girl is wearing a red number. However whos to say the red Im seeing is the red you are seeing? I could have been born seeing that as what you refer to as green, however I was born into this world and told its red, so were you. The thing is that we would never know for sure that we are seeing completely different colors. And the implications are very interesting. But the point is that any logical person could see that it would be possible. Im not saying its true, and therefore I need to offer you no proof, I only am suggesting the possibility.

[JetA_Jockey]

I came to the Bible as an uninformed theist/atheist, and i wanted truth. I found all the truth that I needed, and I am content with that, however I do like to expand my Biblical knowledge whenever possible, including other historical documents in regards to it. I do know that it is the most historically backed form of religion in the world.

[JetA_Jockey]

And as far as believing every word of it, I do. Alot of things I think are to be taken as metaphors, or written in a way to encapsulate a civilization 2000+ years behind us. Either way, if I did'nt believe in the bible, then I wouldn't believe in miracles, which I have 3 of at home that I am about to go to.

[Pelion]

I came to the Bible as an uninformed theist/atheist, and i wanted truth.

Maybe thats why you believed it. If you came to the bible not knowing about the way the world works and wanting it to tell you then it isnt really surprising you found answers there.

I find it hard to believe because to me, it is just a story book. I already understand how alot of the world works in ways that the bible doesnt explain, and in ways that religions had no idea about until science explained them and they changed their stories to match.

[potdragn]

Either way, if I did'nt believe in the bible, then I wouldn't believe in miracles, which I have 3 of at home that I am about to go to.

I dont understand what you are saying here.

1. Dont try to bring an emotional heartsting tugging moment by mentioning your children as miracles, it has no relevance to the discussion.

2. Miracle - An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God (dictionary.com)

Unless you are claiming your children are the Messiahs, I doubt this is true. Sorry, its nothing personal, I just have vendettas against people who twist the English language to fit their own ends regardless of the definitions.

Edit: I just wanted to add that technically, you could conveivably have been using one of the other definitions of miracle, however thats not how the context of your sentence defined it.

[lolzzz_321]

God is rigged

[Xianti]

Why was this locked?

[Les_Worm]

Why was this locked?

I was wondering that myself. I haven't been following the thread lately but there was some good discussion. Who locked this?

[a500lbgorilla]

{unlocked}

[Pelion]

Either way, if I did'nt believe in the bible, then I wouldn't believe in miracles, which I have 3 of at home that I am about to go to.

What are they? Show me the proof and ill believe God exists, or you have photoshop.... or you are talking about kids.

If you want ill explain where babies come from...

[journey075]

Either way, if I did'nt believe in the bible, then I wouldn't believe in miracles, which I have 3 of at home that I am about to go to.

What are they? Show me the proof and ill believe God exists, or you have photoshop.... or you are talking about kids.

If you want ill explain where babies come from...

rofl.

[JetA_Jockey]

Either way, if I did'nt believe in the bible, then I wouldn't believe in miracles, which I have 3 of at home that I am about to go to.

What are they? Show me the proof and ill believe God exists, or you have photoshop.... or you are talking about kids.

If you want ill explain where babies come from...

Thank you for my daily belittling. I hope it makes you feel better.
I can consider my kids miracles if I want to, my oldest daughter only came out with a 30 percent chance to live, but it doesn't matter from an atheists perspective I guess.
I'm not about to go into any more personal details of my life story with you, since i'm sure i'll be ridiculed for it, but I've seen things and chains of events that are not easily passed off as coincidence. Sorry again, maybe you can get another laugh out of me.

[boost]

Im not trying to take away from your spirituality, but its human nature to assign more importance to the events in our lives then the yreally desreve. Come the fuck on... you dont have a guardian angel looking over you, cuz then it wouldnt be fair if I didnt get one, then rilla would need one, and as you can see everyone would need one. Do you know how much fukcing paper work that would involve? And so help us god, if those angels ever unionized, we'd all be screwed.

[Pelion]

I can consider my kids miracles if I want to, my oldest daughter only came out with a 30 percent chance to live, but it doesn't matter from an atheists perspective I guess.

You can consider them wonderful and lovely but trying to suggest they are actual miracles in the middle of a theological discussion is never going to be taken seriously.

Im very happy your eldest daughter made it, and you certainly sound like you got lucky but that doesnt mean theres something mystical behind it.

You have even less than a 30% chance of hitting a flush in poker but it isnt a miracle when that happens is it?

[boost]

A bit harsh comparing your daughters life or death situation to a poker hand? Yes maybe, but just take it for face value, Im sure he doesnt mean to offend you.

[Pelion]

A bit harsh comparing your daughters life or death situation to a poker hand? Yes maybe, but just take it for face value, Im sure he doesnt mean to offend you.

I definatly dont mean offence. Obviously the one thing is very much more important than the other. At heart though it was a probability situation and you got lucky. Very very lucky. That doesnt necessarily mean there was any supernatural intervention (but it doesnt rule it out either).

[bigred]

Are you saying she was a bad beat?

[Pelion]

Are you saying she was a bad beat?

I think we should drift away from this subject now...

[Greedo017]

Are all human beings people, in the sense they all deserve the same rights to life, liberty, the persuit of happiness, etc? What entitles you to these rights? Is it having the human genetic code, being a human being? Well, let's say that you go to an alien planet, and there are a bunch of aliens there. How do you decide which ones deserve the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Is it their genetic code being human? no i hardly think so. We define personhood differently from just having the human genome. I think we all can agree, some of the major defining characteristics of personhood are consciousness, reasoning, self-motivated activity, communcation ability, and self-awareness/consciousness. If something had all of these things, clearly they are a person and are worthy of all the rights we afford a person. It can be argued that just the first two, consciousness and reasoning ability can be sufficient to make someone a person. However, surely having NONE of these things makes something a non-person. A fetus has none of these things, and is therefore not a person. Therefore it does not deserve any of the rights we afford to people, and it is not wrong to terminate the pregnancy at any stage of development.

Discuss.

[boost]

well.... thats a lil bit far. 8 months in a baby can survive out side of its mother. By your reasoning it would be fine for a mother to have the baby terminated soon after birth, seeing as it could be at the same stage at birth as a baby taht is yet unborn. Also the idea of letting people get pregnant, know they are pregnant for 9months, then give them the option in the last week to abort.... like... its too late to get cold feet then, and such things shuold not be encouraged. Also its kinda just like, if you waited more then 4 months, too bad, you should made up your mind before. Now you have the option of adoption, or raising the kid yourself.

[Pelion]

well.... thats a lil bit far. 8 months in a baby can survive out side of its mother. By your reasoning it would be fine for a mother to have the baby terminated soon after birth, seeing as it could be at the same stage at birth as a baby taht is yet unborn. Also the idea of letting people get pregnant, know they are pregnant for 9months, then give them the option in the last week to abort.... like... its too late to get cold feet then, and such things shuold not be encouraged. Also its kinda just like, if you waited more then 4 months, too bad, you should made up your mind before. Now you have the option of adoption, or raising the kid yourself.

I agree.

I think the mother should have the right to chose, but I also think she should be careful to not get pregnant before hand, and I think she should decide if she wants to have the baby at an early stage of the pregnancy before the embryo has developed into an "unborn child".

[JetA_Jockey]

Are you saying she was a bad beat?

lol , i still have a sense of humor don't worry

Pelion, I didn't take your last comment offensively, I understand where you are coming from. We are just on two different sides of the same coin, wasting our time debating who is right and wrong.

[JetA_Jockey]

Now how about someone help me with my poker game, im dominating (sorta) at the dreampoker 2.50s and 1's not edgy enough to go back to stars after yesterdays bad run. :]

[Greedo017]

i'm in a philosophy class, that argument is a pretty good one if you read the whole thing. she defends against you saying infanticide is ok according to her logic, and also against the idea that at 7-8 months or whenever, it is immoral to still have an abortion. general idea is that the fetus coming out of the woman gives up her right to decide its fate as its no longer impeding on her rights, assuming people want to adopt it. and, even at 7 months the woman can decide she doesn't want to keep helping a potential person become a person. she gives an argument of say you decided you wanted to go make some people and went to an alien planet, they held you there for 3 months and after 3 months 5 new people are made. if you change your mind after 2.5 months, can't you leave regardless of just how far along these potential people are. obviously, if abortion could be performed without killing the fetus, you no longer have the right to terminate the fetus.

i am sick and tired and going to sleep, I hope some of that made sense. obviously this is an attempt to prove the extreme, that abortion is never wrong. better cases can be made for a more moderate approach, but its hard to logically break this one too.

[boost]

greedo yah I figured that was your line, but there are more factors then the ones you presented I believe. The main one being that 9th month abortions in the real world (not the philosophy class theoretical one) are wrong no matter what way you spin it. And therefore we need to draw a line somewhere, and I think that line is best draw half way or before. If you go 4 months without knowing youre pregnant... well somethings wrong with you. Its like, you find out you are preg, you got a couple months to think about everything. And thats plenty of time considering we have settled on the fact that a line DOES need to be draw, and at best you could get the line drawn 2 months later, but what will the extra 2 months matter in deciding? You see? So 3-4 months is a good place to draw the line, and is indeed the unofficial line. People have, yes, but dont often have abortions after this point.

[martindcx1e]

How could the contents of a cell evolve perfectly at the same time that the membrane that contains the cell also develop to keep the cell inside the membrane since they are two independent structures?

[Warpe]

How could the contents of a cell evolve perfectly at the same time that the membrane that contains the cell also develop to keep the cell inside the membrane since they are two independent structures?

The egg came first.

[Pelion]

How could the contents of a cell evolve perfectly at the same time that the membrane that contains the cell also develop to keep the cell inside the membrane since they are two independent structures?

I think you got the wrong thread

[boost]

so I was google image searching random stuff and I foudn this picture.. I dont know why but it made me laugh, enjoy.

[midas06]

Pelion, your fro needs to be bigger

[Pelion]

Pelion, your fro needs to be bigger

rgr

Ill extend it

[pgil]

How could the contents of a cell evolve perfectly at the same time that the membrane that contains the cell also develop to keep the cell inside the membrane since they are two independent structures?

by there being many many cells, and many many variations within the cell community. those that were slightly better than the others, left more copies of themselves, and those that didnt work were weeded out. its pretty damn simple actually.

its like, how did the eye evolve by mere luck/chance. gradually is the answer. besides, the eye is a pretty piss poor design when you think about it. the light must travel through all of the contents of the eye before striking the cells that register the important information about the light, leading to distortion, etc. good thinking on gods part on that one eh??

people who ask those types of questions obviously dont understand the central ideas behind evolution.

[azureXsmurF]

How could the contents of a cell evolve perfectly at the same time that the membrane that contains the cell also develop to keep the cell inside the membrane since they are two independent structures?

by there being many many cells, and many many variations within the cell community. those that were slightly better than the others, left more copies of themselves, and those that didnt work were weeded out. its pretty damn simple actually.

its like, how did the eye evolve by mere luck/chance. gradually is the answer. besides, the eye is a pretty piss poor design when you think about it. the light must travel through all of the contents of the eye before striking the cells that register the important information about the light, leading to distortion, etc. good thinking on gods part on that one eh??

people who ask those types of questions obviously dont understand the central ideas behind evolution.

bolded part aka "irreducible complexity"... one of the arguments repeatedly shot down by the scientific community

[Phantaroth]

If abortion is legal then killing new born babies should be legal too.

Reasoning: If the logic is a fetus needs the mother to survive, therefore it is not yet an individual human being, then you must also admit infants need mothers to survive, making them not yet human beings as well.

If the logic is that life begins at a certain point etc, etc, I can't argue with that because there is no fact/logic involved for me to base my opinion off of.

Are we even talking about abortion?