Wow. Freedom of speech?

[Irisheyes]

I agree with ISFs hate mail.

One other think I'd like to add. I spent 2 months in America this summer in 3 different states and I loved every one of them. I like you guys.

[IowaSkinsFan]

cliff notes: sauce doesn't stop at blinking red light which is the same thing as a stop sign, cop pulls him over for breaking law when sauce did in fact break the law, friends think they're in 1984 for whatever reason, emo rant about the US.

You completely ignore the validity of his entire post because of one flawed point and the fact that it is "emo?" Can you please make an argument against it?

About "The Andrew Meyer." I agree sauce, I think its wrong that there is a kneejerk reaction to shutting someone up when they present a challenging question that says something wrong about the establishment. As I said in my email to Andrew, I loved the fact that he asked this question, next time a political speaker comes to AU I will probably ask that sort of question also. My problem is that he asked it in the most unproductive way possible. We need more people who are willing to ask these questions, but not fucking imbeciles.

[a500lbgorilla]

cliff notes: sauce doesn't stop at blinking red light which is the same thing as a stop sign, cop pulls him over for breaking law when sauce did in fact break the law, friends think they're in 1984 for whatever reason, emo rant about the US.

You completely ignore the validity of his entire post because of one flawed point and the fact that it is "emo?" Can you please make an argument against it?

About "The Andrew Meyer." I agree sauce, I think its wrong that there is a kneejerk reaction to shutting someone up when they present a challenging question that says something wrong about the establishment. As I said in my email to Andrew, I loved the fact that he asked this question, next time a political speaker comes to AU I will probably ask that sort of question also. My problem is that he asked it in the most unproductive way possible. We need more people who are willing to ask these questions, but not fucking imbeciles.

bigred wasn't trying to make an argument, he was trying to disarm sauces stance with a little humor so that he can ignore it much easier. These things are not comfortable to think about and the most powerful poster on FTR has better things to do. In the end, all we are doing right now is talking.

It was not a kneejerk reaction to a challenging question. When I watched that video all of his body language was suggesting that he was nervous, excited and confrontational. Andrew Meyer is a terrible American. But through his ignorant actions, he's exposed a very interesting aspect of the American-dynamic. As you stated before, had he simply presented his question without oozing "I'm here to make a scene" from every pore, the entire episode would have gone by without much attention.

[a500lbgorilla]

To augment my statement that Andrew Meyer is a terrible American: He puts question marks on the end of statements but never asks any questions. He begins a verbal assault on Kerry and disrespects everyone around him. His actions are disgusting and you can't lose sight of that.

But at the very core, what he thought he was doing harmonizes with the deepest American beliefs. But he's barely mature enough to understand what it takes to be heard. And with the country as his stage, I expect he'll have nothing meaningful to say.

[Warpe]

He should do a Donald Trump and copyright his phrase:

[a500lbgorilla]

The Andrew Meyer has one column on his website.

In exchange for the life of her husband, Shannon’s mom received this letter from the government:


“Dear Mrs. Timmann:

I extend my heartfelt condolences on the death of your husband. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. I am grateful for Robert’s service to our nation and to the Department of State. His dedication and bravery should serve as an example to us all.

Sincerely,

Condoleeza Rice.”

Nice words from our Secretary of State. But that is all they are. Words. Nothing can bring back Shannon’s father, nor the 3,566 other Americans who have died in Iraq to date.

He values the life of every one of the sacrificed Americans over Iraq. He asks us to sympathize with Shannon but a paragraph earlier...

Iraq is thousands of miles away from the United States. When a suicide bomber strikes in the middle of a crowded Baghdad street, leaving mayhem and carnage in his wake, America is largely unaffected. The only thing we hear in the States is the same tired story. Yeah, yeah, suicide bomber, 20-something dead, we’ve heard this one before. But in Baghdad, no one is “over” these attacks. Every new bombing is a deadly and frightening jolt, a senseless thunderbolt of destruction bringing the city to its knees and death to its inhabitants. Yet we in America are so far removed from Iraq, so jaded to the tales of violence in its streets, perhaps the only time we truly feel the human cost of the War in Iraq is when it hits close to home.

He is demanding that we feel for those people in Iraq. He's missing one key aspect of human nature. As people, we largely aren't equipped to handle these things. He gives a great example:

When Cho Seung-Hui killed 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus, it was like a knee to the stomach of Americans across the country. It was the only story on the news for days, and everyone felt affected, whether they had family or friends at Virginia Tech or not.

His entire political stance is created from his inability to understand his fellow American.

And the easiest way for him to understand the entire issue - corruption and the bottom line.

Virginia Tech was a tragedy, but you can see that death toll almost everyday in Iraq. And for what? For democracy in Iraq? As if anyone in the U.S. government really cares about the Iraqi people? We are there to make money for Vice President Cheney’s corporation, Halliburton. We are there for oil.

He's angry because there's so much he can't understand and driven to find an answer in the loudest way possible. Those of his ilk will now pat him on the back and unfortunately, a monster will be created.

He's not here to understand, he's just here to bitch and moan. I used to be the same way.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Interesting post rilla but elaborate on what he would do that you would percieve as.... I guess the opposite of "just here to bitch and moan."

[Ash256]

It was not a kneejerk reaction to a challenging question. When I watched that video all of his body language was suggesting that he was nervous, excited and confrontational. Andrew Meyer is a terrible American. But through his ignorant actions, he's exposed a very interesting aspect of the American-dynamic. As you stated before, had he simply presented his question without oozing "I'm here to make a scene" from every pore, the entire episode would have gone by without much attention.

I was thinking about this whole thing earlier and I came to a similar conclusion. If he really wanted answers, he wouldn't have inundated Kerry with more questions than Kerry could possible answer.

I reckon that if you asked a westener who didn't understand English what they thought he was saying having played them the video, they would have said that he was verbally attacking Kerry, certainly not asking questions.


I do feel a certain amount of sadness seeing scenes like this where people think they are pushing for a change but in fact painting themselves into a corner. I think the kid had a valid point in the "questions" he was "asking", yet he's just another idiot who's turned himself into a figure of either ridicule or scorn.

--Warning - revolutionary speech ahead--

Speaking generally, I hope a positive change will come (Whilst I'm in the UK and it's not nearly as bad here, we're generally 15 years behind the US so this kinda shit is inevitable), but it needs to come from the hearts and minds of the general population (having been planted there) - the unknowns in suits on the train, the friendly-but-stupid looking girl in the shop, the neighbours, the lifeless suburban 9-5ers, etc.

No change will come about from people who repeatedly marginalise themselves for their cause.

[mcatdog]

1. this is just an expenditure of hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars on a "service" who's only goal is to inconvenience and "train" people. its just so fucking dumb its scary.

I'll bet it's the opposite. Photo-radar cameras are a huge source of income for a lot of police departments. This just makes them even worse IMO. They're not primarily about safety, they're a transparent attempt by the government to raise money.

[a500lbgorilla]

Interesting post rilla but elaborate on what he would do that you would percieve as.... I guess the opposite of "just here to bitch and moan."

He would need to really impress me with his second article after being released from jail. He would need to demonstrate less frustration and anger while showing a bit more insight - which I doubt he'll do.

He'll have to point the finger at himself first before trying to swing that digit elsewhere.

[sauce123]

cliff notes: sauce doesn't stop at blinking red light which is the same thing as a stop sign, cop pulls him over for breaking law when sauce did in fact break the law, friends think they're in 1984 for whatever reason, emo rant about the US.

100% correct

[sauce123]

yea for sure on a side note i thought the dude getting tazed was just protesting in the least charismatic flawed way possible.

anyways for sure i dont think many of my points were particularly valid, specially as i in no way substantiated anything with facts and really have no intention to

[IowaSkinsFan]

cliff notes: sauce doesn't stop at blinking red light which is the same thing as a stop sign, cop pulls him over for breaking law when sauce did in fact break the law, friends think they're in 1984 for whatever reason, emo rant about the US.

100% correct

wow. Ben you amaze me sometimes.

[sauce123]

anyways big red- u might slightly have misinterpreted my post.

my reaction when getting stopped by a cop (or whoever) for basically any victimless crime is just "who the fuck do you think you are" but u cant just go around punching cops in the chops so......

^^^^^

[Zee Devee]

After reading all of your responses it seems to me that we are all in agreement for the most part. That guy (after seeing the whole thing and reading what others have said) seems to be quite a shit stain. And for the most part what that cum guzzler did is stupid and pointless (directly). But maybe there are some indirect consequences that benefit from his actions.

We are now (and when I say we, I mean about 3-4 posters here and whoever reads them but doesn't want to jump into the discussion) talking about the whole country and political decisions of our country.

For one I do believe that the government is controlling us (while at the same time oppressing us is a better way than other countries because we "think" we have the choice in what we do), and iti is nice to bitch about it and moan, but what will that do really?

I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical.

Now I know I am not going to start a rebellion. I don't even know if I would join it because a.) I am having a good time where I am even though others are not, and b.) I am a wuss.

But we know that things need to change, so what are you doing to make this world better? Not just the government, but life overall?

[boost]

rilla, I really like what you have done to this thread. What you said about people being armed though, Im just not sure its true. Im really on the fence about gun control laws. The thing that keeps me there is the fact that we civilians are so underarmed its not even funny. Also do you really believe people will know when its time? If we are on that path, I feel like it will just go so slowly that we dont even notice, then BAM, all of a sudden totalitarianism. The only way I can see a successful revolution is through an outside supply of arms, which is terribly unlikely it seems, or having a part of the military defect, which is even less likely. It just seems like if we are indeed heading down that path then theres no stopping it, welcome to the United States of Oceania.

[sauce123]

cliff notes: sauce doesn't stop at blinking red light which is the same thing as a stop sign, cop pulls him over for breaking law when sauce did in fact break the law, friends think they're in 1984 for whatever reason, emo rant about the US.

100% correct

wow. Ben you amaze me sometimes.

ISF- when you make a rant, and know it comes off as a rant, and do not make sound, valid arguments, when people disagree you really have no recourse. I didn't even attempt to structure my argument in an informative solid way and therefore theres rly no reason to defend it. I made a few points which had merit and were concrete based on those two situations:

1) It's dumb to spend tons of money on victimless crimes (or make tons prosecuting the very same)
2) D-Bag was tazed for being a D-Bag, not for doing anything specifically wrong, which is a violation of civil liberties. but thats not particularly unexpected.
3) the "question-answer" forum Kerry/our politicians use, was just very clearly displayed as a marketing tool, when a D-Baggy dissenter just gets insta thrown out for disrupting the rhythm of the thing, though he was technically following the rules. nothing revolutionary there.

oh, yeah and jesus christ John Kerry, how can he EVER expect someone to vote for him as president when he showed absolutely zero leadership in a low-pressure setting. hmmmm, o wait he lost....

[boost]

oh, yeah and jesus christ John Kerry, how can he EVER expect someone to vote for him as president when he showed absolutely zero leadership in a low-pressure setting. hmmmm, o wait he conceded....

fypost

[Jack Sawyer]

Wow, a meaningful discussion. I actually ignored this post for the longest time, thinking the only responses you'd get were "guy's a douchebag, kerry is an asshole, fuck teh cops, etc."

While I do think the guy who started this upstir is indeed a douchebag, he has heart in the right place. He just needed to show more tact while asking fewer questions, and not get emotional.



Now Jack's views on a few issues:

The "security measures" the US has taken is, imo, laughable. The people who hijacked the planes on that very notorious plane, didn't do it with guns. All it would take is some sort of reinforced double door between cockpit and the rest of the plane, where only the pilots could be in the cockpit. That's it.
Thing is, by harrassing every single passenger, delaying every single flight, for stoopid measures like "you can take only 1 box of matches on board" or "no fluids allowed on board, that includes the milk bottle to feed the babies, missus" are downright laughable.
I've heard of several reports of people giving guys up who prayed before boarding a plane, in an Islamitic way. WTF? Religious discrimination?

The war in Iraq is just wrong. Yeah, the country was run badly. Yeah, Hussein was a dictator. But inventing false arguments to invade a country and then say "oops, my bad. no wmd's found, sorry; here, have a new president" is just wrong. Every soldier killed over there is one too many, not to mention the debt the US will face for years to come. And the other yes-man-countries too. I love France for staying out of it.

And what about the "arms selling to the gulf" thing? Huh? WTF?

The first thing the US has to do, is making arms possesion illegal. No licenses should be granted, unless you're either from the military or a cop. Weapons shouldn't even be manufactured, IMO, much less sold.

Trampling on people's rights, just for the sake of getting authority back in the hands of the police, is a big nono. Give respect if you want to receive respect. Videotaping someone going through a crosssection, while nobody was coming, no real harm posed to anybody, and then fining him is a big nono. And no, saying "he violated the law" doesn't count. If he violated the law, and someone was crossing, and he hit the person, then obvioulsy he'd be in a shitload of problems. No pedestrian's, so what's the problem? Go get the guys who rob. The guys who murder. The guys who rape. On an of day, go eat donuts.

The modern world should be past wars. Past conflicts. Invading countries in this day and age is a big nono, specially if all that country has done is badmouth.

Oh, and India & Pakistan are big douchebags. Give the religion intolerance thing a rest.




Make love, not war. Peace.

[DetroitHusling101]

Also, the OP of this thread sounds like a real piece of work. I'm surprised no one else has mentioned that yet.

?

explain........

[UG]

Good posts everyone, I like the direction this thread took.

I'd like to make a post that would really add something here, but I don't think I, or many others in general, can fully grasp what is going on in our country right now. There are just too many things that we don't know about for us to understand what is really going on. Our civil liberties are slowly being taken away, our government is lying to us left and right, the mass media is the official mouthpiece for the government and it always finds a way to spin things and/or not report things to make it seem like we're still a democracy, etc. These things have been going on since the United States was created.

I believe it's going to get far worse before it gets better, but people have said that for 100's of years so that's really nothing new.

I'll have to think about this a little bit more, but I doubt I'll ever be able to come up with a post that can express my thoughts concisely on this topic.

[a500lbgorilla]

rilla, I really like what you have done to this thread. What you said about people being armed though, Im just not sure its true. Im really on the fence about gun control laws. The thing that keeps me there is the fact that we civilians are so underarmed its not even funny. Also do you really believe people will know when its time? If we are on that path, I feel like it will just go so slowly that we dont even notice, then BAM, all of a sudden totalitarianism. The only way I can see a successful revolution is through an outside supply of arms, which is terribly unlikely it seems, or having a part of the military defect, which is even less likely. It just seems like if we are indeed heading down that path then theres no stopping it, welcome to the United States of Oceania.

We're well equipped for terrorism, if need be. But this is not a discussion I want to have now or ever.

[Warpe]

Also, the OP of this thread sounds like a real piece of work. I'm surprised no one else has mentioned that yet.

?

explain........

maybe mcat thinks this is a church instead of a poker forum

[DetroitHusling101]

Also, the OP of this thread sounds like a real piece of work. I'm surprised no one else has mentioned that yet.

?

explain........

maybe mcat thinks this is a church instead of a poker forum

lol ... i guess i shouldn't of posted my personal experiences. But honestly i couldn't care less what people on a forum think of me as a person i am here for poker strategy.
I pretty much agree with everyone that the kid was acting like a fool.
I would never whine and scream and squirm like he was under those circumstances.
But on the other hand i don't see how they have the right to taser him.

[a500lbgorilla]

I'm sorry, Jack. But you're only a little bit better than Mr. Meyers. It's not that I disagree with you, it's that you fail demonstrate to me that any of your points are what you know is right and not what you feel is right.

Your preferences are outside of your own control, so don't listen to them. Understand them and then decide what to believe.

Wow, a meaningful discussion. I actually ignored this post for the longest time, thinking the only responses you'd get were "guy's a douchebag, kerry is an asshole, fuck teh cops, etc."

While I do think the guy who started this upstir is indeed a douchebag, he has heart in the right place. He just needed to show more tact while asking fewer questions, and not get emotional.



Now Jack's views on a few issues:

The "security measures" the US has taken is, imo, laughable. The people who hijacked the planes on that very notorious plane, didn't do it with guns. All it would take is some sort of reinforced double door between cockpit and the rest of the plane, where only the pilots could be in the cockpit. That's it.
Thing is, by harrassing every single passenger, delaying every single flight, for stoopid measures like "you can take only 1 box of matches on board" or "no fluids allowed on board, that includes the milk bottle to feed the babies, missus" are downright laughable.
I've heard of several reports of people giving guys up who prayed before boarding a plane, in an Islamitic way. WTF? Religious discrimination?

The war in Iraq is just wrong. You have failed completely in making an argument. This sentence is painful to read. There is no wrong or right. This shows passion dominating reason. Yeah, the country was run badly. Yeah, Hussein was a dictator. What are you saying? But inventing false arguments to invade a country and then say "oops, my bad. no wmd's found, sorry; here, have a new president" is just wrong. Every soldier killed over there is one too many, not to mention the debt the US will face for years to come. Please follow this train of thought. Give us reasons and insight into your beliefs. And the other yes-man-countries too. I love France for staying out of it. Please explore this as well.

And what about the "arms selling to the gulf" thing? Huh? WTF?

The first thing the US has to do, is making arms possesion illegal. No licenses should be granted, unless you're either from the military or a cop. Weapons shouldn't even be manufactured, IMO, much less sold. Why? This is simply diluted propaganda. Give me some meat.

Trampling on people's rights, just for the sake of getting authority back in the hands of the police, is a big nono. Give respect if you want to receive respect. Videotaping someone going through a crosssection, while nobody was coming, no real harm posed to anybody, and then fining him is a big nono. And no, saying "he violated the law" doesn't count. If he violated the law, and someone was crossing, and he hit the person, then obvioulsy he'd be in a shitload of problems. No pedestrian's, so what's the problem? Go get the guys who rob. The guys who murder. The guys who rape. On an of day, go eat donuts. It's a fundemental flaw with any government that governs such a large nation. Laws remove personal accountability. The gov't believes it can't trust you to know how to drive through a cross-section safely. They must threaten and punish people to make everyone more aware. Of course, to fix the system and give the administration a personal touch on all levels would require a government so large about a third of the nations population would probably be under its employ.

The modern world should be past wars. Past conflicts. Invading countries in this day and age is a big nono, specially if all that country has done is badmouth. I understand what you're saying but not why you're saying it and why you believe it should be said. War is the genesis of powerful social, political and emotional forces. We don't yet understand enough about ourselves to eliminate war from this world of ours.

Oh, and India & Pakistan are big douchebags. Give the religion intolerance thing a rest.




Make love, not war. Peace.

[Warpe]

Whether he was a douchebag or not, should they have tasered him? Discuss:

http://www.alternet.org/rights/44455/

[mcatdog]

maybe mcat thinks this is a church instead of a poker forum

Honestly Warpe, you didn't laugh when the OP said he didn't want to "snitch" on a guy who broke into his house and stole his two guns? If that sounds normal to you then you've probably watched "The Godfather" too many times. I couldn't care less that he dealt drugs or whatever.

Anyway this thread is going in a better direction now so I'm not interested in talking about the OP.

[DetroitHusling101]

maybe mcat thinks this is a church instead of a poker forum

Honestly Warpe, you didn't laugh when the OP said he didn't want to "snitch" on a guy who broke into his house and stole his two guns? If that sounds normal to you then you've probably watched "The Godfather" too many times. I couldn't care less that he dealt drugs or whatever.

Anyway this thread is going in a better direction now so I'm not interested in talking about the OP.

Chances are you have never been in my situation.
Only reason i called the police was to keep my name clean if they use the guns.
Other than that it was a matter of the streets.
I would never want to be labled a snitch. Nor would i ever work with prosecuters.
Simple as that.

[sauce123]

Jack-

Its impossible to convince people of a different upbringing, different worldview and different social values by resorting to your passionately held opinions. I wrote my OP at like 5:00 in the morning real tired and upon rereading it realized that it held little power to convince anyone not already in spirit agreeing with me. The only way to sway an antagonistic audience is to appeal to a tactically sound argument using reason and building point by point. This is one of the fundamental mistakes Tazy D-Bag made in his little display for John Kerry, he began with an accusation, secure in the knowledge that Kerry was guilty already, which almost completely undermined his argument (among other things).

Its like a good bluff, you can't just bet a lot against smart people, you gotta represent something convincingly.

[sauce123]

oh yea and sick posts rilla

[boost]

maybe mcat thinks this is a church instead of a poker forum

Honestly Warpe, you didn't laugh when the OP said he didn't want to "snitch" on a guy who broke into his house and stole his two guns? If that sounds normal to you then you've probably watched "The Godfather" too many times. I couldn't care less that he dealt drugs or whatever.

Anyway this thread is going in a better direction now so I'm not interested in talking about the OP.

Chances are you have never been in my situation.
Only reason i called the police was to keep my name clean if they use the guns.
Other than that it was a matter of the streets.
I would never want to be labled a snitch. Nor would i ever work with prosecuters.
Simple as that.

Mcat, you proved it yourself, to you this stuff is the stuff written into movies. Ive met you, and this isnt meant to insult you, but you dont exactly come across as being very street smart. Completely different mentalities exist, because they are different doesnt make them wrong. You clearly exhibit a vast lack of understanding towards life on the other side of the tracks. You express this by insulting the op; to me it is you who 'sounsd like a real piece of work.'

[boost]

rilla, I really like what you have done to this thread. What you said about people being armed though, Im just not sure its true. Im really on the fence about gun control laws. The thing that keeps me there is the fact that we civilians are so underarmed its not even funny. Also do you really believe people will know when its time? If we are on that path, I feel like it will just go so slowly that we dont even notice, then BAM, all of a sudden totalitarianism. The only way I can see a successful revolution is through an outside supply of arms, which is terribly unlikely it seems, or having a part of the military defect, which is even less likely. It just seems like if we are indeed heading down that path then theres no stopping it, welcome to the United States of Oceania.

We're well equipped for terrorism, if need be. But this is not a discussion I want to have now or ever.

Ive gained a ton of respect for you from your posts in this thread, rilla.


offtopic: equilibrium is an amazingly bad ass movie loosely based on George Orwell's 1984.

[boost]

Jack-

Tazy D-Bag

ha

[IowaSkinsFan]

best FTR thread ever.

Maybe we should have a thread of issues. They can be anything anyone wants to bring up and we discuss them every week?

[boost]

best FTR thread ever.

Maybe we should have a thread of issues. They can be anything anyone wants to bring up and we discuss them every week?

Yah if we can maintain this relaxed non abrasive tone that the thread has taken on in its second page. I think we just need rilla to post in it full time, keeping people in line in his intellectually superior way.

[a500lbgorilla]

rilla, I really like what you have done to this thread. What you said about people being armed though, Im just not sure its true. Im really on the fence about gun control laws. The thing that keeps me there is the fact that we civilians are so underarmed its not even funny. Also do you really believe people will know when its time? If we are on that path, I feel like it will just go so slowly that we dont even notice, then BAM, all of a sudden totalitarianism. The only way I can see a successful revolution is through an outside supply of arms, which is terribly unlikely it seems, or having a part of the military defect, which is even less likely. It just seems like if we are indeed heading down that path then theres no stopping it, welcome to the United States of Oceania.

We're well equipped for terrorism, if need be. But this is not a discussion I want to have now or ever.

Ive gained a ton of respect for you from your posts in this thread, rilla.


offtopic: equilibrium is an amazingly bad ass movie loosely based on George Orwell's 1984.

I feel as if I've gained a badge-of-Manhood now that I can roll with Ja-murdaaa.

[euphoricism]

1) They're campus security guards. They've got no real authority. Everyone knows this. Hell, my kids lip off and/or don't listen to the security guards on our high school campus all the time. Our kids at the H.S. level know that our guards have a certain amount of power, but it's not like they're real police officers so they know they can get away with more shit.

This is wrong. UF (And most large colleges) have their own police force. These were the real deal, and this kid is lucky he didn't get charged with more. (Resisting Arrest, for example)

So they get the beefy guy in and he's able to remove him. So what do they do, they move him to the back of the room and put him down.

No, the big beefy guy carried him about 50 feet before the struggling dipshit tripped him and put HIMSELF down. They would have been plenty happy to move him all the way out the door, but they fell.

From an outsiders point of view is that officers feel entitled to use the taser as a threat: "do what I want you to do or I'll inflict pain"

No, thats *exactly* what tasers are for. Getting compliance as fast as possible. People get all sorts of fucked up in those "dog piles" by the bad guy. Bit, scratched, hair pulled, spit on, stepped on, etc etc. They're dangerous, and the cops view it as "Fuck you, I want to go home to my wife tonight, not sit in the hospital. Listen to me or I'll make you listen to me." You've disobeyed a lawful order (Put your hands behind your back) and the police have every right to force you to comply with that order.

The threat of physical harm is clearly absent, if this is a true quote then I expect we're going to see disciplinary action as a result.

This is just wrong as well. Its fairly standard for the police to be placed on leave pending an "investigation" in a politically sensitive area. They're not going to be disciplined.

Exactly. And there was clearly no threat to anyone from this kid at the point tasers were used.

Again, wrong. Bit/scratched/hairpulling/broken limbs, all of which happens all the time.

Not unless the state attorney is even dumber than I am.

Is that *that* much of a stretch?

You see this shtt all the time with campus cops, they're second-rate and half of them are short fat chicks with Napolean complex who don't have the competence to take control of situations like this and that's how we end up with these messy incidents.

No, bull shit attitudes like YOURS are the reasons we have these incidents. The cops arent real cops, the cops are pigs, fuck the cops, we dont have to respect them. Oh shit you mean they can legally taze my ass? Fucking pigs! Yawn. Grow up.

I dont give a FUCK what the laws are pertaining to disorderly conduct. america is such a police state, especially lately...

See above. Lots of people love to claim "POLICE STATE! INFRINGEMENT ON MY LIBERTIES!" but they have nothing to back that assertion up (OMG I rolled through a stopsign and that bitch ass cop gave me a WARNING! Who the fuck does he think he is?!) Fuck you dude, he gave you a break!

I guess what is just depressing to me is that the minute dissent was voiced in this environment, the knee-jerk reaction was to shut him up.

This is blatantly untrue. There was a whole lot of people asking questions that were "dissenting" and this was the only fuckwad who had problems. No knee-jerking here.

gestapo fascist bullshit.

You need to read what the gestapo *really* did, if you're trying to compare the two.



More later, back to class.

[sauce123]

lol euph- our worldviews r clearly so completely reversed that arguing back at you for directly saying "Fuck You" to me in a thread would just be waste of time.

Yo, cause teh interwebs is all like serious business...

[DetroitHusling101]

maybe mcat thinks this is a church instead of a poker forum

Honestly Warpe, you didn't laugh when the OP said he didn't want to "snitch" on a guy who broke into his house and stole his two guns? If that sounds normal to you then you've probably watched "The Godfather" too many times. I couldn't care less that he dealt drugs or whatever.

Anyway this thread is going in a better direction now so I'm not interested in talking about the OP.

Chances are you have never been in my situation.
Only reason i called the police was to keep my name clean if they use the guns.
Other than that it was a matter of the streets.
I would never want to be labled a snitch. Nor would i ever work with prosecuters.
Simple as that.

Mcat, you proved it yourself, to you this stuff is the stuff written into movies. Ive met you, and this isnt meant to insult you, but you dont exactly come across as being very street smart. Completely different mentalities exist, because they are different doesnt make them wrong. You clearly exhibit a vast lack of understanding towards life on the other side of the tracks. You express this by insulting the op; to me it is you who 'sounsd like a real piece of work.'

Exactly , the reference to Godfather did prove that. I've never based my thoughts , beliefs or actions based on a movie. I wasn't offended by his insult because i can understand if you havn't grew up in a enviorment with guns , drugs and violence you wouldn't understand the concept behind not snitching , or the mentality people on the street and in the dope game have in general.
I'm actually kinda suprised i only had 1 person "insult" me throughout this entire thread.

[Pelion]

Rilla. You keep asking people to explain there reasons behind morals. There is no logical reason for why people have certain morals. In most cases it is just a product of upbringing. In certain parts of ancient Greece guys used to have sex with other guys all the time. In certain parts of america guys get death threats for the same thing. Nothing has fundamentally changed about the act of guys having sex with guys. Its just that the upbringing and the education of alot of people in society has changed so now they view it as immoral. So I have no particular reason for thinking that beating up a guy for being a slight "douche" is wrong. I just know in my heart that it is wrong. Its exactly the same with explaining why lying is wrong.

But inventing false arguments to invade a country and then say "oops, my bad. no wmd's found, sorry; here, have a new president" is just wrong.

Give us reasons and insight into your beliefs.

There is no way of explaining why lying to an entire population in order to attack another population and cause great pain and suffering in the process is wrong. Its the sort of thing that you either get or you don't. If you don't then you lack the qualities that allow people to live in a society and you are by definition a psychopath. Human beings are social creatures by nature, and only damaged people cant instinctively understand these beliefs.

[a500lbgorilla]

Rilla. You keep asking people to explain there reasons behind morals. This I disagree with deeply. There is no logical reason for why people have certain morals. Yes, there is and you mention it next. In most cases it is just a product of upbringing. Did you choose the way you were raised? Why can't you choose your own morals? In certain parts of ancient Greece guys used to have sex with other guys all the time. In certain parts of america guys get death threats for the same thing. A great example! Nothing has fundamentally changed about the act of guys having sex with guys. Exactly! So why hate gays? Give me logical reasons! Not just because the idea of it makes you uncomfortable. Push through that and look deeper. Its just that the upbringing and the education of alot of people in society has changed so now they view it as immoral. So I have no particular reason for thinking that beating up a guy for being a slight "douche" is wrong. I just know in my heart that it is wrong. Its exactly the same with explaining why lying is wrong.

But inventing false arguments to invade a country and then say "oops, my bad. no wmd's found, sorry; here, have a new president" is just wrong.

Give us reasons and insight into your beliefs.

There is no way of explaining why lying to an entire population in order to attack another population and cause great pain and suffering in the process is wrong. There is no wrong or right in my mind. His actions have effects, what are they? You can weigh these effects and come to a conclusion. Its the sort of thing that you either get or you don't. If you don't then you lack the qualities that allow people to live in a society and you are by definition a psychopath. I believe all mental abnormalities can be cured. They're crazy because they don't yet know any better. This is limited to those minds which are not physically mis-formed or damaged. Human beings are social creatures by nature, and only damaged people cant instinctively understand these beliefs.

Unfortunately, I have a propulsion test which I have neglected all day in lue of relaxation after a hell week of class work, job interviews and 4hrs of sleep each night. I need to focus on that now and the discussion I'm about to get into goes hand in hand with another "thread" that I'm having trouble finishing.

But consider that your upbringing, society and social interactions have molded you to believe what you do. They have impressed morals upon you and reinforced them with the support and comfort of family, friends and Uncle Sam. Why can't people lay out their beliefs and compare them to others thoughtfully with the opportunity of actually changing their entire belief system?

As I've said in other threads, your tastes and preferences are not you own.

[IowaSkinsFan]

lol euph no reason to get super pissed off, you can't get mad at someone because you think they are dumb. I mean imagine if they actually were dumb, its similar to making someone mentally retarded feel bad because they can't learn multiplication.

[boost]

Pel, I think there is a way to explain this stuff, but it isnt always easy. Its kind of like explaining why 2+2=4 or why 2+2!=97, there is a way to mathematically explain it, but its not easy(for me.)

I think that your stance on morals is actually a big part of whats wrong with this world. Logic rules all, if you can clearly and concisely explain, through logic, why something is immoral then you can work to change the world for the better. The problem is that the people trying to make the argument dont understand the underlying basis for their moral objections and so they cant convey them. Another even deeper problem is that people listening dont understand the basis for their conflicting beliefs and just respond wiht "well this is how I was brought up, its just the way I am." Its a daunting task to them, breaking thier beliefs and opposing beliefs down logically and coming to a conclusion based on this process. Instead they just chose to shut off the input with, "this is how I was raised."

[boost]

lol euph no reason to get super pissed off, you can't get mad at someone because you think they are dumb. I mean imagine if they actually were dumb, its similar to making someone mentally retarded feel bad because they can't learn multiplication.

lol retards and arithmetic

[Pelion]

Exactly! So why hate gays? Give me logical reasons! Not just because the idea of it makes you uncomfortable. Push through that and look deeper.

No you give me reasons. I don't see any logical reasons for it at all.

Ok reading through your posts again and I think you are talking more about the causes of certain beliefs rather than the reasons behind them.

edit: ok i moved my post down cos it makes no sense in the edit

[boost]

Exactly! So why hate gays? Give me logical reasons! Not just because the idea of it makes you uncomfortable. Push through that and look deeper.

No you give me reasons. I don't see any logical reasons for it at all.

pel... stop being so stuborn. There are plenty of logical reasons. Im not saying the logic in the grand scheme of things is sound, but in isolated applications there is logic to it. And the thing is, the logic doesnt have to be sound, the exercise rilla is trying to get you to do is to delve into the minds of the people on the other side of things. Try and build a logical framework for their thoughts. They probably dont even think that deep about their own stance much less yours, and thats your hand up in an argument vs them.

[mcatdog]

Completely different mentalities exist, because they are different doesnt make them wrong.

Boost, I don't claim to understand everything about the world. I didn't exactly have the most culturally diverse of childhoods; almost everyone in the town where I grew up is white and pretty well-off and most of my friends were nerdy guys like me. I'm not defensive if you tell me I'm not street smart because it's true and I've never had to be.

At the same time, despite what you seem to think about me I'm almost always pretty tolerant of other people. The reason I made a comment in this thread is the guy who robbed the OP's house went on to kill some baby's dad in front of her and it doesn't seem to bother the the OP at all that he could have maybe helped the prosecutor put that guy away but he didn't. That's just wrong and it has nothing to do with the fact that he has a "different mentality" from me.

Since you brought up the Vegas trip. I was into different things than a lot of you guys but I never said or thought anything ill of anyone just for that. It had more to do with the fact that a couple of people treated me like shit the entire time (not you, you seemed really polite and friendly). You got the wrong impression if that trip made you think that I'm a judgmental type of person. Just because I didn't want to go to the Rhino and get a lap dance doesn't mean I thought any less of anyone who did, that would be ridiculous.

[DetroitHusling101]

He shot the man in the shoulder he did not kill him. He is facing probally 25 years because he is a habitiual felon ontop of home invasion felony firearms attempted murder and a few other charges.
His friend who was with him when they kicked in my door took the rap.
The prosecuter never even asked me to help them ,even if he had i wouldn't have.

[DetroitHusling101]

And the fact is , here in Wayne County you will probally slip through the system with a home invasion charge. You might spend 3-6 months in county , and probally even less if you can afford a layer.
The prosecutor and police department didn't even WANT anything to do with charging them with home invasion. Their had been numerous calls from people in my complex about the traffic in and out of my apartment and there had been police survialance for months prior.
I actually got the AR-15 back about 8 months later.
I've got to say that was the most akward moment in my life walking out of the police station with a AR-15 because they didnt have my carrying case anymore.
They figured that since i sold drugs i got what i deserved , and i did because things like that come with the territory. So they are blamed for letting a man that could potentially be a killer slip right through.
Which was my point in the original post about the situation
Thank you , now i am done ranting about it.

[mcatdog]

That changes things if he didn't kill him. What bothered me about your posts was you seemed so blase about a young father getting killed.

Why are you so opposed to ratting someone out if they robbed your house? I can understand why you wouldn't want to snitch to get a lighter jail term, that's part of the business and you hope that the people you're involved with wouldn't snitch on you either. But a guy you don't know who comes and steals from you, why would you ever want to protect him? I honestly don't understand it.

If the cops let this guy go because you "got what you deserved" then they're corrupt and incompetent like a lot of cops and I've never argued otherwise.

[a500lbgorilla]

Exactly! So why hate gays? Give me logical reasons! Not just because the idea of it makes you uncomfortable. Push through that and look deeper.

No you give me reasons. I don't see any logical reasons for it at all.

So is it possible there are no reasons to logically hate gays? That the only reason to hate gays is through social training? You hate them because your father hates them and you want your father to be proud of you? You hate them because you believe that families are critical to the development of children and raising them in a life of sin isn't God's way? If so, why are families so critical? Because children need to be taught morals and how to become good people? What do you define as "good people?" Why do you define them as such? Can a murderer be a good person? Can a child molester be a good person?

When you're not willing to explore, where can you go?

[DetroitHusling101]

Ok... i did know the guy. I knew him for years. I wasnt trying to protect him. I just won't be a part of putting someone behind bars. It's not my place to do so. If a family member was assault/raped/murdered now that is a completly different story. Chances are i would take that kind of matter into my own hands and end up being the one behind bars.

[Pelion]

Ok so here is Pelion's theory of moral evolution.

I think that many belief systems are necessary to a social society. i.e. thou shalt not kill etc. Traits like these would have evolved since cooperative societies would tend to be better at surviving than uncooperative ones.
In the beginning people lived in societies since they had to cooperate to hunt large animals, keep fires going etc. but there was not enough food in each area to support more than a very small society. Everyone had to spend their time finding food so everyone had the same sort of life. There were no classes. There was no way of storing food so there was no motivation for wars. Moral codes evolved into the sorts of morals needed to keep a society like this working.

Around 10000 years ago people figured out how to plant seeds and farm the crops, and they found ways of storing the excess food for bad winters. This prompted the Neolithic Revolution in which the first towns formed. Now some people could have lives which centered around other crafts not related to producing food such as making pots and farming tools. A new class grew up for the administration and protection of the surplus. In time this class grew into the ruling class we have today, and the administration and protection mechanisms it used grew into the modern state with police force, courts etc.

Back when technology was such that each person could only produce enough wealth to for their own survival things like war and slavery would have been rediculous. You would trek over to the neighbouring tribe, and give them a kicking, bet there would be no treasure to take home. You could kidnap one of them as a slave, but they wouldn't last very long since they can only produce enough to keep themselves alive. Once technology grows to the point where towns can develop that store wealth, and slaves can produce enough to keep themselves alive AND a little left over for their master there becomes a motivation. But current morals don't allow for keeping slaves or having wars so the ruling class invents new moral codes whereby people from certain places arent really people, and so its ok to keep them as slaves. People from other places don't value freedom as much as we do so it doesn't really matter if a few of them get killed and so on. People from other places don't even believe in the right God so it doesn't matter if we go over there and kill a few of them and take their wealth back home etc. etc. These "morals" have very obvious motives behind them at some point in history and are leftovers from that time.

[a500lbgorilla]

Ok so here is Pelion's theory of moral evolution.

I think that many belief systems are necessary to a social society. i.e. thou shalt not kill etc. Traits like these would have evolved since cooperative societies would tend to be better at surviving than uncooperative ones.
In the beginning people lived in societies since they had to cooperate to hunt large animals, but there was not enough food in each area to support more than a very small society. Everyone had to spend their time finding food so everyone had the same sort of life. There were no classes. There was no way of storing food so there was no motivation for wars. Around 10000 years ago people figured out how to plant seeds and farm the crops, and they found ways of storing the excess food for bad winters. This prompted the Neolithic Revolution in which the first towns formed. Now some people could have lives which centered around other crafts not related to producing food such as making pots and farming tools. A new class grew up for the administration and protection of the surplus. In time this class grew into the ruling class we have today, and the administration and protection mechanisms it used grew into the modern state with police force, courts etc. Back when technology was such that each person could only produce enough wealth to for their own survival things like war and slavery would have been rediculous. You would trek over to the neighbouring tribe, and give them a kicking, bet there would be no treasure to take home. You could kidnap one of them as a slave, but they wouldn't last very long since they can only produce enough to keep themselves alive. Once technology grows to the point where towns can develop that store wealth, and slaves can produce enough to keep themselves alive AND a little left over for their master there becomes a motivation. So they invent new moral codes whereby people from certain places arent really people, and so its ok to keep them as slaves. People from other places don't value freedom as much as we do so it doesn't really matter if a few of them get killed and so on. People from other places don't even believe in the right God so it doesn't matter if we go over there and kill a few of them and take their wealth back home etc. etc. These "morals" have very obvious motives behind them at some point in history and are leftovers from that time.

I like it (or really, I can appreciate it). Here's 'rilla's theory of personal moral evolution:

I was born into the world of today and molded into someone I didn't choose to be. Television, Teachers, Parents, Friends - if it made me feel good, it is to what I assimilated. But now, I realize when did I decide what made me feel good or not? I see now that once again all of those outward stimulus had also trained my most basic preferences. They had "brainwashed" my subconscious. If you consider your subconscious as a basic machine incapable of higher thought, then why allow it to control or persuade you? Before ideas that didn't agree with my "core beliefs" were disarmed with humor or met with frustration. So now, I'm ignoring my own human nature. Why do I need to feel good all the time? When you feel good, your mind works in a wholly different way than when you feel bad/mad/sick/frustrated/tired/confused. Now I'm trying to break those barriers and have my mind work the way I want rain or shine.

My morals were not my choice either, so you have to look at each and every one of them and decide if you want to keep them or change them. If your father was a faggot hating, flag-waver and you find yourself as a faggot hating, flag-waver was it because thats what you truly believe is right or what you feel is right?

[euphoricism]

He shot the man in the shoulder he did not kill him. He is facing probally 25 years because he is a habitiual felon ontop of home invasion felony firearms attempted murder and a few other charges.
His friend who was with him when they kicked in my door took the rap.
The prosecuter never even asked me to help them ,even if he had i wouldn't have.

Life is more likely. It's automatic life imprisonment if you have two or more violent felonies (or one violent felony and one "serious" drug conviction) under 18 USC 3559 (I only know this because I just got out of my Criminal Law midterm).

(c) Imprisonment of Certain Violent Felons.—
(1) Mandatory life imprisonment.— Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a person who is convicted in a court of the United States of a serious violent felony shall be sentenced to life imprisonment if—
(A) the person has been convicted (and those convictions have become final) on separate prior occasions in a court of the United States or of a State of—
(i) 2 or more serious violent felonies; or
(ii) one or more serious violent felonies and one or more serious drug offenses


a Federal or State offense, by whatever designation and wherever committed, consisting of murder (as described in section 1111); manslaughter other than involuntary manslaughter (as described in section 1112); assault with intent to commit murder (as described in section 113 (a)); assault with intent to commit rape; aggravated sexual abuse and sexual abuse (as described in sections 2241 and 2242); abusive sexual contact (as described in sections 2244 (a)(1) and (a)(2)); kidnapping; aircraft piracy (as described in section 46502 of Title 49); robbery (as described in section 2111, 2113, or 2118); carjacking (as described in section 2119); extortion; arson; firearms use; firearms possession (as described in section 924 (c)); or attempt, conspiracy, or solicitation to commit any of the above offenses;

[vqc]

This thread has evolved much too quickly for me to keep up, so I don't want to join on the new topics that have arisen.

Note: the following assumes that resisting arrest is done in some sort of physical manner (i.e. flailing around) and not like sitting like buddha.

I wrote a long hypo (im getting used to those now as a law student) but then realized that my question boils down to this.: What is so inherently bad about using a taser? If I am so authorized to kneel on your head to control you if you resist arrest, what makes a taser different? Is it because its some form of technology? Is it because when a taser is used it doesn't give the person a chance to fight back? Is it because there is some purported danger to using a taser, if so have you read any studies done on the subject? If there was a magical apparatus that could render anyone unconscious for 30 seconds and they would awaken perfectly fine, would the cops have been allowed to use it in order to remove the person? If the answer is yes, what makes the magical apparatus different from a taser?

If you agree that the officer had every right to remove a someone who was unnecessarily disturbing the peace, in doing so, what is more important, the safety of the officer removing the person or the safety of the person being removed?

Cliff Notes: I will never understand why taser use results in such a big brewhaha in resisting arrest cases.

[vqc]

As I've said in other threads, your tastes and preferences are not you own.

Do you think its ever possible to call your tastes and preferences your own?
Does a consolidation and synthesis of others ideas into a new idea count as "your own"?

[a500lbgorilla]

As I've said in other threads, your tastes and preferences are not you own.

Do you think its ever possible to call your tastes and preferences your own?
Does a consolidation and synthesis of others ideas into a new idea count as "your own"?

Yes. But first, you have to acknowledge that right now, they're not yours. Because all tastes and preferences can be changed.

There is no part of who you are that can't be changed. You are the way you are because you don't yet know any better.

[Warpe]

Cliff Notes: I will never understand why taser use results in such a big brewhaha in resisting arrest cases.

b/c there's ~200 documented cases of people dying as a result of their use.

[bigred]

Wow this thread is longer than my one inch penis.

I didn't read anything, i just hope you know I was messing with you, Sauce.

[IowaSkinsFan]

There is no part of who you are that can't be changed. You are the way you are because you don't yet know any better.

This is true if you believe that the only thing that matters in this world is logic. Because beyond logic this notion is laughable. What if God made us this way? And that everything that happens in our life was part of our dharma, or our preset path in life? What about Astrology? Do you think there's no doubt Astrology is completely false? What about your nature? Does no one have a nature but rather blank slates that happened to turn out this way because of their surroundings?

Religious and spiritual ideas are much harder to logic out than ones that aren't, does that mean they are wrong? Does it just mean we don't know enough to argue for them?

[UG]

There is no part of who you are that can't be changed. You are the way you are because you don't yet know any better.

This is true if you believe that the only thing that matters in this world is logic. Because beyond logic this notion is laughable. What if God made us this way? And that everything that happens in our life was part of our dharma, or our preset path in life? What about Astrology? Do you think there's no doubt Astrology is completely false? What about your nature? Does no one have a nature but rather blank slates that happened to turn out this way because of their surroundings?

Religious and spiritual ideas are much harder to logic out than ones that aren't, does that mean they are wrong? Does it just mean we don't know enough to argue for them?

That's kind of what I was thinking, that this could be a nature vs. nurture type of thing too. I think all people are "wired" differently, for lack of a better way to put it. Babies have different personalities from the get-go. You see this all the time with siblings, twins, and identical twins. Those different personalities, along with their life experiences, shape them into the people that they ultimately become.

There have been studies done on identical twins separated at birth. These separated yet identical twins have totally different lives and totally different life-experiences as they grow up. Yet even though they've been raised apart they end up being a LOT like each other. They usually wind up having the same tastes and likes/dislikes on a level that is borderline ridiculous.

What does this ultimately prove? I'm not sure, but what it proves to me is that we are all products of our life-experiences, how we were raised, who and what we've been acquainted with in life, etc....but at the same time each one of us is "wired" a little bit differently, so there is already some sort of predetermined path that we're going to go down no matter what. What percent is nature and what percent is nurture? I have no clue, but I think both play a part in what makes us who we are, not solely our life experiences.

[bigred]

So you're saying you were born gay then, UG?

[IowaSkinsFan]

UG has a good point about twins seperated at birth, the results of those studies are amazing.

Btw as George did I don't think that our lives have nothing to do with nurture, just that there is in fact some nature there.

[a500lbgorilla]

I'll admit to making a post, reading it and deleting it. It was half-thoughtful but I'm beyond the point of complete exhaustion right now.

Night.

[UG]

I'll admit to making a post, reading it and deleting it. It was half-thoughtful but I'm beyond the point of complete exhaustion right now.

Night.

Lame.

You half-awake and half-thoughtful is probably great stuff, better than what most of us (including me) could churn out at full strength.


Sweet dreams, even though that was lame.

[lolzzz_321]

Post deleted by a500lbgorilla

Be nice to Jack

[vqc]

Cliff Notes: I will never understand why taser use results in such a big brewhaha in resisting arrest cases.

b/c there's ~200 documented cases of people dying as a result of their use.

first and foremost, how many people have ever been tasered? When every cop in training gets tasered as part of training 2oo doesn't seem like a big deal at all.

but were these people all of relatively good health? Did they have any pre-existing conditions that were aggravated by the taser that could have been aggravated by some other form of force used. I hate to pull this argument but how many people have died because the police put the guy in a controlled chokehold and the guy dies. Is it really necessary that the police do everything with their bare hands?

[UG]

Cliff Notes: I will never understand why taser use results in such a big brewhaha in resisting arrest cases.

b/c there's ~200 documented cases of people dying as a result of their use.

first and foremost, how many people have ever been tasered? When every cop in training gets tasered as part of training 2oo doesn't seem like a big deal at all.

but were these people all of relatively good health? Did they have any pre-existing conditions that were aggravated by the taser that could have been aggravated by some other form of force used. I hate to pull this argument but how many people have died because the police put the guy in a controlled chokehold and the guy dies. Is it really necessary that the police do everything with their bare hands?

I was going to say the same thing. If you die by being tasered, it may have been the taser, but you've got other shit going on too.

[jyms]

Cliff Notes: I will never understand why taser use results in such a big brewhaha in resisting arrest cases.

b/c there's ~200 documented cases of people dying as a result of their use.

more than 4 x that many people die from aspirin use so we should ban that too

[UG]

Cliff Notes: I will never understand why taser use results in such a big brewhaha in resisting arrest cases.

b/c there's ~200 documented cases of people dying as a result of their use.

more than 4 x that many people die from aspirin use so we should ban that too

Don't forget peanuts, those things are DANGEROUS!

[Pelion]

Cliff Notes: I will never understand why taser use results in such a big brewhaha in resisting arrest cases.

b/c there's ~200 documented cases of people dying as a result of their use.

more than 4 x that many people die from aspirin use so we should ban that too

more than 4x as many people take asprin as get tasered so we should think of logical arguments about it first...

[spoonitnow]

fuck the police

[IowaSkinsFan]

Cliff Notes: I will never understand why taser use results in such a big brewhaha in resisting arrest cases.

b/c there's ~200 documented cases of people dying as a result of their use.

more than 4 x that many people die from aspirin use so we should ban that too

more than 4x as many people take asprin as get tasered so we should think of logical arguments about it first...

TOUCHE

[a500lbgorilla]

There is no part of who you are that can't be changed. You are the way you are because you don't yet know any better.

This is true if you believe that the only thing that matters in this world is logic. Because beyond logic this notion is laughable. What if God made us this way? And that everything that happens in our life was part of our dharma, or our preset path in life? What about Astrology? Do you think there's no doubt Astrology is completely false? What about your nature? Does no one have a nature but rather blank slates that happened to turn out this way because of their surroundings?

Religious and spiritual ideas are much harder to logic out than ones that aren't, does that mean they are wrong? Does it just mean we don't know enough to argue for them?

That's kind of what I was thinking, that this could be a nature vs. nurture type of thing too. I think all people are "wired" differently, for lack of a better way to put it. Babies have different personalities from the get-go. You see this all the time with siblings, twins, and identical twins. Those different personalities, along with their life experiences, shape them into the people that they ultimately become.

There have been studies done on identical twins separated at birth. These separated yet identical twins have totally different lives and totally different life-experiences as they grow up. Yet even though they've been raised apart they end up being a LOT like each other. They usually wind up having the same tastes and likes/dislikes on a level that is borderline ridiculous.

What does this ultimately prove? I'm not sure, but what it proves to me is that we are all products of our life-experiences, how we were raised, who and what we've been acquainted with in life, etc....but at the same time each one of us is "wired" a little bit differently, so there is already some sort of predetermined path that we're going to go down no matter what. What percent is nature and what percent is nurture? I have no clue, but I think both play a part in what makes us who we are, not solely our life experiences.

I would love to meet and speak with two twins separated at birth. I would be even more interested in meeting two that are VERY similar even with different backgrounds. It would give great insight into the development of a mind in the 9 months preceding birth.