to wuf: faultlines and the rich, obama's failings

[wufwugy]

I don't agree. Good examples: look into the rates of bankruptcy and/or brokeness among lottery winners and former (ahem, and current) professional athletes. It is staggering.

That doesn't actually tell us anything because it doesn't isolate much. Besides, it's an effect that should be predicted if rilla's assertion was right because it would demonstrate a lot of rich people not being rich based in merit. And what about all those hard workers who are financially astute, yet not rich

The best idea we have about the difference between rich and poor is circumstance. This is why we see structural problems of things like blacks on average being substantially poorer than white people. Is Bill Gates a harder worker and smarter than many millions of his peers? No. Was he one of the only people on the planet who had personal access to a computer at the time based on circumstance, then with a little bit of innate human creativity and work, he sparked a wildfire? Yes

[Lukie]

That doesn't actually tell us anything because it doesn't isolate much. Besides, it's an effect that should be predicted if rilla's assertion was right because it would demonstrate a lot of rich people not being rich based in merit. And what about all those hard workers who are financially astute, yet not rich

I proposed that in a direct response to rilla's quote that the only difference between rich and the poor is in the bank account. Which, actually, in a roundabout way with a strict definition might actually be right

The best idea we have about the difference between rich and poor is circumstance. This is why we see structural problems of things like blacks on average being substantially poorer than white people. Is Bill Gates a harder worker and smarter than many millions of his peers? No. Was he one of the only people on the planet who had personal access to a computer at the time based on circumstance, then with a little bit of innate human creativity and work, he sparked a wildfire? Yes

Yet another thing I talked about in another thread about how not everything is black and white and there are varying shades of gray. You seem to think that circumstance is the most important thing; I realize it's a factor just less so than you do. Such is life.

[wufwugy]

I proposed that in a direct response to rilla's quote that the only difference between rich and the poor is in the bank account. Which, actually, in a roundabout way with a strict definition might actually be right


Yet another thing I talked about in another thread about how not everything is black and white and there are varying shades of gray. You seem to think that circumstance is the most important thing; I realize it's a factor just less so than you do. Such is life.

You are right that I think circumstance is the most important thing. It's what I see in any area whenever I look. One example is evolution being almost entirely about environment. Biologically, nothing about who we are wasn't borne of circumstance. It's a difficult thing to reconcile with other things like ego, though, because even things that seem non-circumstantial still are. Like one person being smarter or more driven is still best explained by that person's circumstances. The way I look at it is that when you're living your own life, you have to treat things as if they're not circumstantial and there is no determinism, but when developing macro models for things like society, you have to account for circumstantial selection, so to speak

[Lukie]

You are right that I think circumstance is the most important thing. It's what I see in any area whenever I look. One example is evolution being almost entirely about environment. Biologically, nothing about who we are wasn't borne of circumstance. It's a difficult thing to reconcile with other things like ego, though, because even things that seem non-circumstantial still are. Like one person being smarter or more driven is still best explained by that person's circumstances. The way I look at it is that when you're living your own life, you have to treat things as if they're not circumstantial and there is no determinism, but when developing macro models for things like society, you have to account for circumstantial selection, so to speak

I can't really disagree with this but it's really on a fundamentally different discussion on a different level. Especially the bolded. I don't believe it is society's or government's job to correct for one person being more intelligent and driven than another.

[a500lbgorilla]

I proposed that in a direct response to rilla's quote that the only difference between rich and the poor is in the bank account. Which, actually, in a roundabout way with a strict definition might actually be right