the AA dilema

#Game No : 977500484
***** Hand History for Game 977500484 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Wednesday, September 22, 10:15:00 EDT 2004
Table Table 11338 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: a104l9 ( $85.05 )
Seat 2: jason6883 ( $15.5 )
Seat 7: Allinlife ( $26.6 )
Seat 9: InYoAzz ( $13.75 )
Seat 10: WinterMag ( $57.65 )
Seat 6: playback2004 ( $48.85 )
Seat 8: bef321 ( $33.15 )
Seat 3: Daprduca ( $25.65 )
Seat 5: Zadkiel ( $21 )
Seat 4: byoo804 ( $24.5 )
Daprduca posts small blind [$0.25].
byoo804 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Allinlife [ Ad Ac ]
Zadkiel folds.
playback2004 folds.
Allinlife raises [$1].
bef321 calls [$1].
InYoAzz folds.
WinterMag folds.
a104l9 calls [$1].
jason6883 folds.
Daprduca folds.
>You have options at Mother of pearl Table!.
byoo804 raises [$3.5].
Allinlife calls [$3].
bef321 calls [$3].
a104l9 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, 7s, 8h ]
byoo804 checks.
Allinlife checks.
bef321 bets [$15].
byoo804 is all-In.
Allinlife folds.
bef321 calls [$5.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
bef321 shows [ 5c, Qc ] high card king.
byoo804 shows [ Ks, Ah ] a pair of kings.
byoo804 wins $51.55 from the main pot with a pair of kings.
Game #977505752 starts.


the CR really scared me...what would you have done? was I correct to fold (even at PP?>)

Reraise the preflop and put him to the test. Fire a pot size bet out on the flop.

**edited because I read it wrong**

First post! Found your fine forum and would love to contribute and learn where I can!


Alot of beginning(and experienced at times) players make the mistake of falling in love with pocket pair. Dont get me wrong. Im not saying AA isnt the best STARTING hand but lets look at the scenario. A guy raises and rather than throwing out a reraise you call. Personally, I would have reraised to see where he was really at and shake out the dead wood but OK -you try to sneak in and slow play it. The flop comes - guess what? Opportunity lost. Now you no longer know you have the best hand, havent let anyone know you have a honorable hand, you also let bef321 in for 3.00 with their junk. Once the flop comes and something like that happens your screwed. Why? You already know - pocket k's, pocket 7s, pocket 8s, Flush draw, str8 draw......K7, K8? Opportunity lost. And no - after the flop you were right to fold you just would have been better off reraising him and shaking him up a bit before the flop. He might have folded OR at least been cautious postflop. Which he obviously was not...

And after the flop - even a third ace would not have helped you had that flush or str8 shown up...

Just my two cents

You can't raise preflop and then just check on the flop. (Well you can, but I never do it) I always bet no matter what comes. Personally I would have raised bigger preflop and made a pot size bet on the flop.

He didnt raise in the first place.That was the problem... He had a raiser before him and he just called.....

Honestly. The only thing I would have been afraid of after the flop was a flopped set. And even then I still woulda called hoping to catch another Ace. I've accepted that Aces can and do get cracked. I'll regret it more folding Aces than getting outdrawn and beat. Some loss is inevitable in poker.

That's just me though. Because now all you're gonna think of is why didn't you call that all in. And it's going to bother you more than if you called and got outdrawn.

Originally Posted by FyrFytr998

Honestly. The only thing I would have been afraid of after the flop was a flopped set.

That's what I was thinking. The big check-raise tells me a big hand. Bigger than TPTK.

The 2 way all in in front of you also makes me think that you are up against a big hand, and a bigger draw. Nut flush draw, etc.

Though it's common to second-guess yourself in this situation, I dont think you need to feel too bad about this.

I would have re-raised pre flop there, upto about the total of the bets ~ $10.. did the same last night UTG, I raised to 1.5, got reraised to $5, I reraised to $10.. flop comes up all hearts. I bet pot sized and take it down.

... This is a really strangely played hand. Ok, you decided to slowplay it preflop. Then I'd understand if you were going for a check raise on the flop against the preflop raiser, but you had position on him and he checked. Why on earth did you not bet the flop? If I played it like you did, I'd still call, but you made it much tougher on yourself. You raised small preflop and then just called a raise, then never put a dime in post flop. Not putting up much of a fight with AA.

I've only folded AA twice in my poker life. I was only right once.

A pot sized bet is anything from top pair to a set. So depending on your read of this players style this, this may have been a good fold.

I dont understand your preflop call. You want to cut it down to 1, maybe 2, callers preflop, then bet big on the flop to cut it down to 1 or no callers. You need to be the aggressor when you think you have the best hand.

Preflop:
I believe you must raise. You have the nut preflop hand and already one opp wants to play b/c they re-raised (fairly big) your raise. The objective would be to get a HtoH and take their money. My inclination would be to go AI (if I knew there was a good chance they would call) or bet big (maybe $8+). At least if you had more money in the pot, calling the AIs on flop would be more justified since your pot committed.

Flop:
You are check/raising I guess, however the 2AI bets were unexpected. If it was just the raiser in, I would assume I had the best hand and hes betting recklessly an AK, QQ, or something similar. I wouldnt neccessarily think they had some set. However with 2opps in, its hard to be confident that you have the best hand.

Note to self: add bef321 to buddy list...Q5s for 3.50 preflop, then AI with that flop?

As to the hand, don't normally slowplay AA, but if I had I would re-raise AI or at least to $10 or so. I doubt both would have seen the flop, but either way I raise the pot on the flop. At that point(after they called $10 or AI PF), I only fear KK. The way it did play out, I'd probably call and take my lumps if beat. Guessing no read on either guy?

i would just say: yikes!

preflop
- 2xBB raise from early position with AA - yikes! that would be a minimum (depending on the table) 6-8xBB PF raise for me
- not reraising BIG (if not all-in) to the preflop reraise - yikes -why not, you know you've got the best hand

flop
- bef's overbet says "please don't call me" - if he'd hit a set or even top two pair (even fearing the flush draw), he probably wouldn't have betted more than the pot
- byoo's action is more of a check call than check raise, which looks like he might have been trying to slow play top pair

this should have been a definite call, but as others have said, you put yourself into a bad spot.

based on the way these two guys played, at least one of them would have probably called a preflop all-in from you.

allinlife - correct me if i'm wrong, but haven't we seen other slow played big pair hands from you?

Originally Posted by SteveDonel

I've only folded AA twice in my poker life. I was only right once.

Wow. I've folded AA lots of times. I've only folded a set two or three times...

fishstick- I think it was a totally diffrent situation where there was only one opponent and no huge checkraise from one of the players...

so even with huge check raise, you guys dont fear sets (making this a EV+ move over long run) ?

and advice well taken. I should be betting here...say I bet the pot. what do I do when I get reraised ai? still a call since I'm pot commited anyways?

Originally Posted by AllinLife

fishstick- I think it was a totally diffrent situation where there was only one opponent and no huge checkraise from one of the players...

i wasn't sure... i just thought i'd pick on you a bit!

Originally Posted by AllinLife

so even with huge check raise, you guys dont fear sets (making this a EV+ move over long run) ?

as i've said before, if anyone figures out a way to tell when they're up against a set, i'll subscribe to their newsletter!. i think it's a fact of lower limit life that we have to pay off the occasional set. and i think your right, it is +EV to NOT fold in a situation like this over the long run.

I think its plus EV to not play AA like this. You basically played it like a calling station ... but you didn't call. Hmm, maybe we need a new term. A folding station?

Originally Posted by michael1123

I think its plus EV to not play AA like this. You basically played it like a calling station ... but you didn't call. Hmm, maybe we need a new term. A folding station?

+EV to not fold AA presented with the above situation in a party poker $25 NL ring game.

not +EV to play rockets this way.

stop teasing...I learned my lesson with check-folding my AA

thanks for the tips...as always

Originally Posted by fishstick

+EV to not fold AA presented with the above situation in a party poker $25 NL ring game.

not +EV to play rockets this way.

Haha, I know. I was just going back to pointing out (*cough* teasing AllinLife *cough*) that the problem was more about how the hand was played before it was folded than the fold itself.

Originally Posted by michael1123

Originally Posted by fishstick

+EV to not fold AA presented with the above situation in a party poker $25 NL ring game.

not +EV to play rockets this way.

Haha, I know. I was just going back to pointing out (*cough* teasing AllinLife *cough*) that the problem was more about how the hand was played before it was folded than the fold itself.

have i mentioned *cough* gone from teasing to abusing allinlife *cough* that i'm not happy with how he played this hand?

I CANT HANDLE THIS ADMIN BRUTALITY!!

I QUIT FTR

We're not admins, we're just mods. But ... hey Xianti, you feel like telling AllInLife how horribly he played his AA here?

{This post has been removed}

Originally Posted by michael1123

But ... hey Xianti, you feel like telling AllInLife how horribly he played his AA here?

What can I say that hasn't already been said?

You guys have done a number on him already. Please don't leave us, AllinLife!


I didn't read this entire thread, so I may be repeating some thoughts, but... the other guy going all-in (check/raise or not) would have been a dream come true for me in this situation. Based on the size of the betting action pre-flop, AK is exactly what I put him on after his post-flop play. Your minimum raise PF didn't show too much strength, and with $3.25 in the pot before him, he re-raised it to pot-size to limit the field. He flopped the King he'd hoped for, so the check-raise smells of TPTK.

Personally, though, I wouldn't be in this situation. With AA pre-flop, I want to limit the field to just 1 (maybe 2) opponents. A minimum raise rarely limits the field much. Post-flop, drawing hands and random rags hitting two-pair become too much of a threat when slow-playing your AA. As Fnord put it in another thread, "With AA, I have two speeds: fast and faster."

Originally Posted by Xianti

As Fnord put it in another thread, "With AA, I have two speeds: fast and faster."

Fnord is more often quoted than Shakespeare!

New to the forum. Relatively new player. Great stuff.

Still learning, but one other reason I would play it hard and take the bust is for future value and information. If my AA gets busted, as the others have said - so be it - at least he'll know what I go all-in with and I'll get information about what he goes all-in with. Maybe next time, even same session, he'll be more cautious when he sees you go all-in (no matter what you have).

Like many before me have told you, with AA you should have gone all-in pre-flop, you would have ended up with probably one or two callers and you would have nailed that pot.

Originally Posted by michael1123

Originally Posted by Xianti

As Fnord put it in another thread, "With AA, I have two speeds: fast and faster."

Fnord is more often quoted than Shakespeare!

Yeah, that Fnord quote reminds me of a previous discussion we had on smooth calling a raise with AA pre-flop vs. re-raising. Is deception worth giving them a free chance to catch up? I've previously been smooth calling raises pre-flop with the monsters. It's great when it works (opponents making plays post-flop based on the fact that you "can't" have AA/KK since you didn't re-raise pre-flop). It sucks when it doesn't work (opponent flops 2 pair or a set with a hand that would have folded to a re-raise pre-flop).

Do many other people ever smooth call pre-flop instead of re-raising? I'm thinking of getting away from smooth calling for a bit.

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

Originally Posted by michael1123

Originally Posted by Xianti

As Fnord put it in another thread, "With AA, I have two speeds: fast and faster."

Fnord is more often quoted than Shakespeare!

Yeah, that Fnord quote reminds me of a previous discussion we had on smooth calling a raise with AA pre-flop vs. re-raising. Is deception worth giving them a free chance to catch up? I've previously been smooth calling raises pre-flop with the monsters. It's great when it works (opponents making plays post-flop based on the fact that you "can't" have AA/KK since you didn't re-raise pre-flop). It sucks when it doesn't work (opponent flops 2 pair or a set with a hand that would have folded to a re-raise pre-flop).

Do many other people ever smooth call pre-flop instead of re-raising? I'm thinking of getting away from smooth calling for a bit.

i personally like the over the top reraise when you've got AA. you may shut down the hand preflop, but better that than getting cracked. also, the over the top will frequently make someone with QQ or JJ do something crazy and make the call. this can be especially effective if you've just sat down and the opps don't know how you play.

You had AA you only raised $1 and the person in the blind has AK raises to $3.50. If you would have raised before that to like $3.50 then AK reraises more then your option to go all in.

Lol, you folded with a Kxx flop because why?? Damn dude.