AA vs. min-donk/re-raise on flop

Should this be a routine fold?

50NL

New to table

Hero is UTG+1 ($50) with
Villain is SB and covers

Pre-Flop

UTG limps .50
Hero raises to $2.50
SB calls $2.50
UTG folds

Flop (2 Players, Pot = $6)


SB bets .50
Hero raises to $7
SB raises to $13.50
Hero ?

Call it and evaluate turn.

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

Call it and evaluate turn.

If you call then the pot will be $33 on the turn. Assume the turn card changes nothing. You will have $34 left. What do you do if he checks? What do you do if he bets 1/2 pot? If he pushes?

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by Dislexsik

Call it and evaluate turn.

If you call then the pot will be $33 on the turn. Assume the turn card changes nothing. You will have $34 left. What do you do if he checks? What do you do if he bets 1/2 pot? If he pushes?

If he checks i check behind, if he bets 1/2 of the pot i call.If he pushes i fold.
Just try to see the showdown cheap.

Push, whats beating you? pocket 3/4/10's.. JJ+ are paying you off as is anything else

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Push, whats beating you? pocket 3/4/10's.. JJ+ are paying you off as is anything else

pushing might be the worst option. what kind of hands take villain's line? put him on a range.

This is often just a ten that doesn't believe you.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

This is often just a ten that doesn't believe you.

are you serious? you see that play that often?

The flop doesn't really look dangerous without many draws and he called from the SB.Im not pushing this.

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Push, whats beating you? pocket 3/4/10's.. JJ+ are paying you off as is anything else

What hands are you expecting beat? What worse hands are you expecting to call?
Throw the ev right out the window with this. We arent looking to pay the set against such a scary line.

FWIW, mcatdog is onto something in that it may simply be AT or some passive with JJ/QQ. But, i also dont think folding is a bad option considering we know from previous experience the minbet/3bet line = monster, even from an unknown or known fish.
Its a donkish play really, from someone who is going to get stacked playing like this soon enough anyway IMO, so folding and finding a better spot is not horrible, even if it is *only* the rock infested 50nl and we have AA.

Push, you just sat down so even if you lose and they should see you as a fish you should win this back easily. You are probably a 3/2 favorite. I also think he might have junk like A5/A2 for the over + gutshot...

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Push, whats beating you? pocket 3/4/10's.. JJ+ are paying you off as is anything else

Originally Posted by Jager

Push, you just sat down so even if you lose and they should see you as a fish you should win this back easily. You are probably a 3/2 favorite. I also think he might have junk like A5/A2 for the over + gutshot...

wow, i really can't understand pushing here, and 2 people are advocating it. do you like to make it as easy as possible for better hands to take your $?

So you're just goign to fold then to the min raise? Coz thats the only other option. There is no chance you are goin to see a showdown for cheap with all this cash in the pot already.

No point flat calling as an Ace is the only card thats really going to change things from your perspective

On a non-draw board why would he raise if he had trips? There are basically no hands he should be worried about on the flop. I put him on medium pair and doesnt believe you've hit the flop with AK/AQ or he has JJ/QQ.

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

So you're just goign to fold then to the min raise? Coz thats the only other option. There is no chance you are goin to see a showdown for cheap with all this cash in the pot already.

No point flat calling as an Ace is the only card thats really going to change things from your perspective

On a non-draw board why would he raise if he had trips? There are basically no hands he should be worried about on the flop. I put him on medium pair and doesnt believe you've hit the flop with AK/AQ or he has JJ/QQ.

but it's not just a minraise. it's bet/3bet. the lack of draws makes it more likely that he already has a monster. why would he raise? because that's what you do when you have a good hand...unless you like to play backwards and just put lots of money in when you are behind and slow way down when you are ahead. Also, there's no way to be sure that we aren't going to be able to see a cheap showdown just b/c of the action so far. Villain may just check the turn, he may bet tiny again...you don't know anything for sure.

I'd probably just call and get it in on any turn that isn't a 10. I wouldn't be overly thrilled about a 7 either, but this line doesn't look like a draw AND NOBODY EVER HAS A 2 CARD STRAIGHT!!!

disclaimer: when my aces aren't good, I usually get stacked. I generally chalk this up to variance and give myself a pat on the back knowing that huge sack of sklansky dollars next to me is starting to overflow. I'm also quite good at paying off straights, especially when I can put someone on an exact 2 cards. It's always cool to say "yup, I knew what he had", with a little bit of results-orientedness worked into the mix.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

So you're just goign to fold then to the min raise? Coz thats the only other option. There is no chance you are goin to see a showdown for cheap with all this cash in the pot already.

No point flat calling as an Ace is the only card thats really going to change things from your perspective

On a non-draw board why would he raise if he had trips? There are basically no hands he should be worried about on the flop. I put him on medium pair and doesnt believe you've hit the flop with AK/AQ or he has JJ/QQ.

but it's not just a minraise. it's bet/3bet. the lack of draws makes it more likely that he already has a monster. why would he raise? because that's what you do when you have a good hand...unless you like to play backwards and just put lots of money in when you are behind and slow way down when you are ahead. Also, there's no way to be sure that we aren't going to be able to see a cheap showdown just b/c of the action so far. Villain may just check the turn, he may bet tiny again...you don't know anything for sure.

What I'm saying is why reraise on the flop, there is no need to here, there are no draws that make sense. So you like to give your hand away big time on the flop yeah? So opps can fold easily to you. I'm saying that most people would play this tricky as there are no hands that really worry you so its best to make moves on other streets.

What part of limp/call, then minbet/minraise 3bet doesn't look like a (very, very poorly played) set? Keep the remaining 80 BBs, top back off, and nail the moron later.

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

What I'm saying is why reraise on the flop...

how about for value? how about to build a pot? i raised pre-flop. i raised the flop. he knows i like my hand. if he has a monster and he knows i like my hand as well then what's the problem with raising? i hope you aren't one of these guys who slow way down once they actually hit their hand and fail to build a pot vs. villain's overpair/2 pair/etc. which he has probably fallen in love with.

Ok, fair play.. Mayb it is trips. But it's a very badly played one at that! I hope you dont play this the same if this happens

I'm all for betting for value/building the pot. But what I'm saying is what is going to call you in this spot? Not much with no draw, no two pair

So why make someone fold their defending bet of AK/AQ or pair of tens or overpair? When there is no need. If he flat called then the pot would be $20, plenty of room for making a value bet on the turn and getting it all in on the river if neccessary

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Ok, fair play.. Mayb it is trips. But it's a very badly played one at that! I hope you dont play this the same if this happens

I'm all for betting for value/building the pot. But what I'm saying is what is going to call you in this spot? Not much with no draw, no two pair

So why make someone fold their defending bet of AK/AQ or pair of tens or overpair? When there is no need. If he flat called then the pot would be $20, plenty of room for making a value bet on the turn and getting it all in on the river if neccessary

Just flat calling his min donk bet is very very horrible.

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Ok, fair play.. Mayb it is trips. But it's a very badly played one at that! I hope you dont play this the same if this happens

I'm all for betting for value/building the pot. But what I'm saying is what is going to call you in this spot? Not much with no draw, no two pair

So why make someone fold their defending bet of AK/AQ or pair of tens or overpair? When there is no need. If he flat called then the pot would be $20, plenty of room for making a value bet on the turn and getting it all in on the river if neccessary

Just flat calling his min donk bet is very very horrible.

he's talking about if he is the one with a set leading into me.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Ok, fair play.. Mayb it is trips. But it's a very badly played one at that! I hope you dont play this the same if this happens

I'm all for betting for value/building the pot. But what I'm saying is what is going to call you in this spot? Not much with no draw, no two pair

So why make someone fold their defending bet of AK/AQ or pair of tens or overpair? When there is no need. If he flat called then the pot would be $20, plenty of room for making a value bet on the turn and getting it all in on the river if neccessary

Just flat calling his min donk bet is very very horrible.

he's talking about if he is the one with a set leading into me.

oh snap

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Ok, fair play.. Mayb it is trips. But it's a very badly played one at that! I hope you dont play this the same if this happens

I'm all for betting for value/building the pot. But what I'm saying is what is going to call you in this spot? Not much with no draw, no two pair

So why make someone fold their defending bet of AK/AQ or pair of tens or overpair? When there is no need. If he flat called then the pot would be $20, plenty of room for making a value bet on the turn and getting it all in on the river if neccessary

Just flat calling his min donk bet is very very horrible.

he's talking about if he is the one with a set leading into me.

oh snap

no he di'int!

pushing is donkish IMO.
How often do you figure to be good versus a donkbet/3bet line?
Anyone insta-pushing this flop is just leaking implied odds to even semi-decent players.
Fwiw, we didnt need to raise to $7 either, $5 does the same thing.
Also, i dont think we get called by JJ/QQ if we push over the 3bet. We might by a cold called KK but i doubt that happens.
I also think a big pp oop would pot this flop, not minbet.

Yeah, in my last post i was talking about the villan!

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by mcatdog

This is often just a ten that doesn't believe you.

are you serious? you see that play that often?

Yes, his range here is like :

T9+, JJ+ (discount KK), sets and lots of other crap. Call. If he checks the turn or bets weak again I'm felting this.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by mcatdog

This is often just a ten that doesn't believe you.

are you serious? you see that play that often?

Yes, his range here is like :

T9+, JJ+ (discount KK), sets and lots of other crap. Call. If he checks the turn or bets weak again I'm felting this.

i just don't see this line too often & when i do it's usually 2pr or better.

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Yes, his range here is like :

T9+, JJ+ (discount KK), sets and lots of other crap. Call. If he checks the turn or bets weak again I'm felting this.

i just don't see this line too often & when i do it's usually 2pr or better.[/quote]

Maybe it's a stakes or 6 max thing? I see crap like this with lukewarm hands trying to get a feel for where they are at on the cheap. If someone is making stupid bets into me, then I usually just felt a hand like AA.