AK-- we raised and are reraised

[I originally posted in beginner's circle, but this may be worth some discussion with the resident experts, so I reposted here. Hope that's ok]

******* Hand 1 ********

CO here is 14%/5.5%/2.7 over 147 hands; seems that he knows what he's doing. I couldn't see him reraising with anything but AA or KK. A 5% PFR, I'm not sure I put QQ in his reraise arsenal-- especially that well sized 3.5x reraise (which is what I would do and most FTR readers would do with AA or KK to a raise and one cold caller) so I pussed out.

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $23.40
Hero: $27.25
MP1: $21.60
MP2: $21.95
MP3: $12.40
CO: $29
Button: $22.45
SB: $16.80
BB: $39.72

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is UTG+1 with A K
UTG folds, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO raises to $3.5, 3 folds, Hero folds, MP3 folds.
Uncalled bets: $2.5 returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: $3.4


******* Hand 2 ********

Villain is 42%/12%/1.2 over 117 hands. Against a tight or reasonable player, I'd respect the minraise/AI reraise. Worth the gamble against this maniac? Pokerstove puts 11.5% into a range of 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KQo. [I felt like such a freaking fish making this call.]

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $23.70
UTG+1: $13.90
MP1: $24.50
MP2: $9.55
MP3: $28.15
CO: $49.25
Button: $61.46
SB: $38.20
Hero: $24.10

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is BB with A K
6 folds, Button calls, SB raises to $0.5, Hero raises to $1.25, Button calls, SB raises all-in $38.2, Hero calls all-in $22.85, Button folds.
Uncalled bets: $14.1 returned to SB.

Flop: J Q 4 ($49.45, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $49.45)


Turn: 3 ($49.45, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $49.45)


River: 9 ($49.45, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $49.45)


Results:
Final pot: $49.45

1) I'd probably call, take the flop and see where it leaves us before making a final decision. eg, if flop comes KKx then you can take KK out of his hand range and have him drawing to the case A to beat you or looking at him being on AK as well.

2) The raise is good, the AI call though I'm not sure about. Having AKs is only about 2% better than AKo, 1.2% PFR pretty much defines his hand as AA/KK so you are calling an all in hoping to hit an A if he has KK, or KKx if he has AA, or hitting your flush. I don't think the odds for one of those 3 things happening are enough to justify the call at this level.

At $25NL, the one thing I have learnt is a lot of people play very straightforward (hell, even I do for the most part) and if they are representing a hand they usually have it. IN the case of your second hand, I'd lay down to the AI re-raise and give the guy credit for a hand that has me beat or dominated until such time that he shows he doesn't deserve that respect.

He could be re-raising AI to try to protect a hand like QQ and if he's doing that then you'll get his stack eventually anyway, just much better spots to get your money in pre-flop than this hand imho.

Originally Posted by Knytestorme

1.2% PFR pretty much defines his hand as AA/KK so you are calling an all in hoping to hit an A if he has KK,

For hand #2 1.2 is his AF. His PFR% is 12%.

I wasn't looking at hand #2's sootedness, but the opponent. #2 has a much wider range of what he considers to be a good raising hand and his AI PF push can be considered a somewhat donkish push, whereas #1 is a solid TAG and I give him huge credit for AA/KK. I wanted to vomit making this call, don't get me wrong. Just wondering if there were enough metagame factors to make this at least an understandable call.

Also, we know we're going to see all 5 cards in hand #2 against someone I have pegged as a donk and could be pushing AQs. #1 is going to charge me out the ass to see another card and I'm not sure even if I hit TP if I'd be ahead. Had the hands been reversed-- pushed AI in hand #1 and just RR'd in hand #2 I'd have been glad to lay down #1 and glad to just call #2.

both of these hands are standardly played

reraise more in the second one, to at least 2

Sorry, my bad....misread the stats there for hand 2.

With that into account, while I personally would most likely have still laid it down I don't think playing it is too bad a call either.

Have to agree with Renton too, re-raise more. My normal raise/re-raise number is 4 times opponents bet/big blind (including the bb or bet/raise. eg for hand 2, I'd have made my initial re-raise $2)

first hand: incredibly easy fold. His 3-betting range has to be much wider to play here.

second hand: seems like a really easy fold to the preflop push without a read that he's a donktastic laggtard.

I think I fold hand 2 more often than call....

Hand1: i would play the same.

Hand2: Im not willing to go broke with AK in any circumstances preflop. Only exception is against short-stack.

Originally Posted by Turska

Hand2: Im not willing to go broke with AK in any circumstances preflop. Only exception is against short-stack.

what about against full stacks who will push worse hands, where you are +EV to call against their range?

i think AK figures to be good in hand two

I think preflop AKs may be good for hand 2 but it would be very close and I still hold that he would be needing some good help for it to be good by the river (in fact given the board I'd say it's dead at the river) and it's not an AI calling hand without some very good reads.

Then again, that's maybe why I'm only just looking to move to $50NL now and you been there for ages Renton

obv hes dead by the river but thats irrelevant

he has AQ/AJ/AT/A9 dominated here a lot, enough to make money.

Agreed, but re-reading the HH the thing that stands out is the min-raise/AI move by the SB. At $25NL that's pretty much an AA line for most players.

Yes the min-raise in SB could be a blind steal and the re-raise is an attempt to resteal Hero's perceived BB steal but SB has seen the button cold-call a raise and re-raise ahead and still pushed into the BB and still to act button. Given this I'm giving the SB credit for what he's representing and laying this down.

oop i misread the hand, thats a fourbet push

Hmm i thought hero raised and was reraised all in but this is a rereraise.

Eh, i guess I fold there.

Both are such easy folds..

The second hand, seriously, he minraises and then pushes when you raise it? Pretty narrow range that gives without a donk-read.

It was 99 in hand 2. The donk minraise didn't mean much to me-- his raises were all over the place.

I hate getting stacked with AK. I just didn't give him much credit for AA or KK. I figured any PP down to 22 would have been in his push range which probably should have made me lay it down. Eh, live and learn.

Hang on a sec - his PFR may be 12% but how often does he re-raise pre-flop? This doesn't happen a lot at $25NL and I'd not want to call/raise a re-raise with anything less than QQ (and AK is much less than QQ, since it needs to improve against any PP) and even then I'd need a read.

Yeah, it's something I've been coming to grips with as well lately.

AK preflop is still just a drawing hand. Yeah it's figuring to be the best preflop a lot of times, but if you put any pp in your opponents range then you are effectively drawing to 6 outs.

The play for me now, without an insane read on someone (or stats on them like 75%/46%/0), is to not get all in pre-flop with AK if they play back over my re-raise but to see what the flop brings if they don't push or re-re-raise enough to pot commit me. If I can't see the flop then most likely I'll lay it down and wait.

It may be leaving a bit too much money on the table, but I think it is +EV in the longterm for me.

when did we start calling 3 bet pushes with large unpaired cards?

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

when did we start calling 3 bet pushes with large unpaired cards?

Why does everything have to be so black and white? It's a fold 90% of the time but there are definitely donkeys out there against whom it's correct to get all-in preflop with AK.

I don't have a problem at all with the OP's call in Hand 2. If the guy is so much of a donk that he's 3-bet pushing small pairs here then he's probably also pushing hands like AQ and AJ so the OP is ahead of his range and folding would be a mistake.

Another example, in this hand TMoc78's stats were 63/30. If I fold AK to him here he's probably going to flop bottom pair very soon and stack off to some other TAG and then he'll leave the table and I'll be wondering why I didn't try to get mine when I had the chance.

POKERSTARS GAME #5346812933: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/06/24 - 00:12:03 (ET)
Table 'Nausikaa IV' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: OGsweets ($61 in chips)
Seat 2: mcatdog ($153.35 in chips)
Seat 3: tremont25 ($53.05 in chips)
Seat 4: Pokedatgal ($22.55 in chips)
Seat 5: indy69 ($30.10 in chips)
Seat 6: TMoc78 ($80.95 in chips)
indy69: posts small blind $0.50
TMoc78: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [Kc Ah]
OGsweets: folds
mcatdog: raises $2.50 to $3.50
tremont25: folds
Pokedatgal: raises $2.50 to $6
indy69: folds
TMoc78: raises $44 to $50
mcatdog: raises $103.35 to $153.35 and is all-in
Pokedatgal: folds
TMoc78: calls $30.95 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [7h 4s 3h]
*** TURN *** [7h 4s 3h] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [7h 4s 3h 6h] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TMoc78: shows [Qh As] (a flush, Queen high)
mcatdog: shows [Kc Ah] (a flush, Ace high)
mcatdog collected $165.40 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $168.40 | Rake $3
Board [7h 4s 3h 6h Th]
Seat 1: OGsweets folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: mcatdog showed [Kc Ah] and won ($165.40) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: tremont25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Pokedatgal (button) folded before Flop
Seat 5: indy69 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: TMoc78 (big blind) showed [Qh As] and lost with a flush, Queen high

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

when did we start calling 3 bet pushes with large unpaired cards?

Why does everything have to be so black and white? It's a fold 90% of the time but there are definitely donkeys out there against whom it's correct to get all-in preflop with AK.

I don't have a problem at all with the OP's call in Hand 2. If the guy is so much of a donk that he's 3-bet pushing small pairs here then he's probably also pushing hands like AQ and AJ so the OP is ahead of his range and folding would be a mistake.

Another example, in this hand TMoc78's stats were 63/30. If I fold AK to him here he's probably going to flop bottom pair very soon and stack off to some other TAG and then he'll leave the table and I'll be wondering why I didn't try to get mine when I had the chance.

POKERSTARS GAME #5346812933: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/06/24 - 00:12:03 (ET)
Table 'Nausikaa IV' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: OGsweets ($61 in chips)
Seat 2: mcatdog ($153.35 in chips)
Seat 3: tremont25 ($53.05 in chips)
Seat 4: Pokedatgal ($22.55 in chips)
Seat 5: indy69 ($30.10 in chips)
Seat 6: TMoc78 ($80.95 in chips)
indy69: posts small blind $0.50
TMoc78: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mcatdog [Kc Ah]
OGsweets: folds
mcatdog: raises $2.50 to $3.50
tremont25: folds
Pokedatgal: raises $2.50 to $6
indy69: folds
TMoc78: raises $44 to $50
mcatdog: raises $103.35 to $153.35 and is all-in
Pokedatgal: folds
TMoc78: calls $30.95 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [7h 4s 3h]
*** TURN *** [7h 4s 3h] [6h]
*** RIVER *** [7h 4s 3h 6h] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TMoc78: shows [Qh As] (a flush, Queen high)
mcatdog: shows [Kc Ah] (a flush, Ace high)
mcatdog collected $165.40 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $168.40 | Rake $3
Board [7h 4s 3h 6h Th]
Seat 1: OGsweets folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: mcatdog showed [Kc Ah] and won ($165.40) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: tremont25 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Pokedatgal (button) folded before Flop
Seat 5: indy69 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: TMoc78 (big blind) showed [Qh As] and lost with a flush, Queen high

i hate this

I know what your saying but i still hate it.

First hand I take a flop and re-evaluate from there.

Second hand I muck.

mcat, in your example given those stats yeah I can see the reason for doing it but I'm still not sure about the call given pokedatgirl was still to act after you.

Did their stats indicate they wouldn't come along even though they had re-raised you?

And just checked stack sizes.....yeah can see the reason for not being concerned about them but say they had you covered, would you still make this call with them still to act?

Originally Posted by Knytestorme

And just checked stack sizes.....yeah can see the reason for not being concerned about them but say they had you covered, would you still make this call with them still to act?

no