am I too weak ?

game is NL (0.25/0.5€) shorthand

first off, Im a newbie in micro limits and a complete moron when it comes to short hand No Limit ...

Either way, I played my first NL game today. Since I have doubled my stack in the microlimits since I first started out playing I thought I'd lose some trying out/learning the NL game. I left after only a short while (like 30min) more or less break even (1€ up), since I realized that I didn't have the betting part and position part down just yet.

I do suspect though that I play extremely weak, I can spot when I am ahead and don't feel afraid to lose money, but in some way it feels that I play unconfident, other players seem to outbet me specially preflop...

Here's a hand I won (1 out of 2) and the only one that played out.

Did I play this right or should I have made bigger bets, play it a little harder ?
...or maybe not that hard preflop, have more people in play ?

and also, should i loosen up just a little in a short hand NL game compared to limit LH ?

and also, was my stack to small (buyin 10€), could've made a lot more on this hand ?

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Game # 60917234 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0,25/0,50 - Table "Gnarp"
Game ended 2005-04-18 13:01:11 UTC

Players:
Juggs100 (EUR 42,50 in seat 1)
giiunreal (EUR 51,00 in seat 2)
gcguthrie (EUR 21,00 in seat 3)
joslin (EUR 7,25 in seat 4)
micke77 (EUR 48,00 in seat 5)
Sjugurka (EUR 52,75 in seat 6)

Dealer: Juggs100
Small Blind: giiunreal (0,25)
Big Blind: gcguthrie (0,50)

joslin was dealt: Ks - Ac

joslin Raise (1,00)
micke77 Fold
Sjugurka Fold
Juggs100 Fold
giiunreal Fold
gcguthrie Call (0,50)

Flop Ah - 9d - 2c

gcguthrie Check
joslin Bet (1,25)
gcguthrie Call (1,25)

Turn Ah - 9d - 2c - 6h

gcguthrie Check
joslin Bet (0,50)
gcguthrie Call (0,50)

River Ah - 9d - 2c - 6h - 4d

gcguthrie All-In (18,25)
joslin All-In (4,50)
gcguthrie Payback (13,75)

gcguthrie shows: Ad - Jc (a pair of aces)
joslin shows: Ks - Ac (a pair of aces)

joslin wins: EUR 14,25 (with a pair of aces)
Rake: EUR 0,50
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Your raises do look a little weak. I raise a standard 3BB pre-flop with any hand I want to play (it's always 3BB to disguise my hand) - as others round here have mentioned before you also want to add a little to that raise if there are a number of limpers before you.

At the flop bet about the pot.

TylerDurden

Yes, all of your bets here were weak. That's the entire reason he pushed against you, however...so this same style could almost be employed intentionally. A better line would be to make it 1,75 preflop, then bet 2/3 pot on the flop. If he calls, you can probably push the turn given your small stack.

For the first time ever, I'm going to say that yes, you did have too short a stack. The reason, however, isn't because of how much your stack was. It's because you asked. To play standard NL poker, you want to have a max buy-in. If you're playing short stack (which can be fine; can even be very profitable), you want to know your reason for doing so. Kinda like how you played this hand was a mistake, but more because you didn't know why it was a mistake than because of the play itself.

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Kinda like how you played this hand was a mistake, but more because you didn't know why it was a mistake than because of the play itself.

Thanks, that was right on target...and why I left the table early.

To learn strategies for betting and position in NL, would you recommend low buyin tournaments ?
That's what I had in mind to try to get the basics down before losing the entire bankroll. Good idea ?

like 1€, 2€, 3€ buyin and about 100 or 200 entrants ...

I agree with the previous posters -- all your betting was weak here. Raise more preflop and bet out on the flop (I always raise to 4x the big blind). You really have to put your opponent on a hand. What did you think he had? One reason to make larger bets is to get information about how much he likes his hand (or just doesn't think you have it this time....). It seems like this yahoo might have gone to the felt with AJ even if you bet out. If you put him on a lower ace and knew a super-weak lead on the turn (.50?!) would induce his hilarious bluff on the river, then this was a brilliant play. But you have to know all that stuff for it to be good, and without a great read that information comes from preflop and flop betting. Playing AJ like this is a huge mistake made by weak players, and is an ideal matchup for AK. You lucked out and he did your betting for you, but if you played this 100 times I think pot-sized flop bet and 2/3 or even push on the turn is a better line.

Originally Posted by face

What did you think he had?

well, remember that this was my first NL game, I thought he had a A high weaker kicker when he went all in but actually didn't have much of a clue on the flop. My bet was 2BB, I thought that was appropriate since I don't want to bet him out of the game (right?) since that would leave me with a winning of about 1.25€ .. Don't you want your opponent to call you to increase the pot and then take him when you know your ahead, or fold on a reraise ?

Originally Posted by face

If you put him on a lower ace and knew a super-weak lead on the turn (.50?!) would induce his hilarious bluff on the river, then this was a brilliant play.

cough. precisely, I planned it, eh, brilliant play - yeah - thats it.

As a matter of fact, I planned to go all in on the river aswell...would that have been stupid? After this hand we chatted some and he told me that he would have called my all in..would you have ?

And again, would you consider a low buyin tournament to be good experience or is it to wild ?
I reason like this, if it is good experience it is alright to lose 1€,2€ - a way to buy experience, sort of.

Originally Posted by joslin

My bet was 2BB, I thought that was appropriate since I don't want to bet him out of the game (right?)

This isn't really the idea behind betting. You generally aren't making bets on drawing rounds (preflop, flop and turn) that your opponent can call. You're making bets which, if he calls, will lead to a net gain for you, and a net loss for your him. The idea is that, if your opponent has some draw, whether it be a straight, flush, outdraw, whatever, he will win the pot a fraction of the time on the very next card, and therefore he "expects" to win a fraction of the pot on the next card. Your goal is to bet an amount which essentially forces your opponent to reimburse your lost pot equity plus anything additional you feel like charging him. This means that your opponent must either forfeit the whole pot or forfeit more of his money (this won't always be the case in practice since he may actually hit, but theoretically it's always true) by chasing a draw. So, you are in a certain sense almost always trying to "bet out" your opponent when you're raising or betting for value before the river.

Ok, I need to figure out the potodds part of the game ? - seems a little overkill at startup level, or is it possible to get a feeling for it from experience.

So in the end you want to bet more than your opponent can afford to lose on a particular hand, chasing a flush for instance. - Ok got it. ( haven't gotten it at all but looking forward to reading a lot about it )

Thanks all for your replies, I think I need to reconsider my game when I play NL compared to Limit, tried it once again last night and apparently I lose as much as I win more or less, got lucky. I don't seem to win as many hands preflop as the other players, and I also fold when I might be ahead, trying to play arstight...

Unless this the money is a non-issue for you, seriously consider dropping down. You are the fish.

Basically you should keep this as a rule of thumb. If you have a good hand preflop then bet 3-5X big blind. If you have AK, AA, KK, QQ then consider reraising 3x their raise if it was 3-5x the bb. On the flop and turn bet 1/2 pot-sized to a pot-sized bet if you feel you have the best hand. This is just a guideline and it should be altered to fit the situation.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Unless this the money is a non-issue for you, seriously consider dropping down. You are the fish.

yes, I am the fish in NL, but playing limit I am keeping a slow but steady tight game going... and I am winning at limit.

I am in the spot where I can play my own hand, spot outs and such and that keeps me floating on the limit tables. What I don't really have down yet is a good betting structure for NL. In limit I feel confident to bet a few strategies and read the other players. The thing is, in NL position and betting seem to be FAR more important than a arstight game, and thats what I try to play in limit.

I guess I have to play some limit to get funds for low stakes NL tourneys, to get the experience.

I'm just saying you can play even smaller stakes at some sites to get the hang of things.

Ok, I need to figure out the potodds part of the game ? - seems a little overkill at startup level, or is it possible to get a feeling for it from experience.

>My bet was 2BB, I thought that was appropriate since I don't want to >bet him out of the game (right?) since that would leave me with a >winning of about 1.25€ .. Don't you want your opponent to call you to >increase the pot and then take him when you know your ahead, or fold >on a reraise ?

You want to be concerned about him drawing out on you - as the other posters have said you want to make sure your bets are big enough not to give him good odds to call if he's on a draw. eg. Drawing to a 4 flush after the flop is about a .3 probability, so you want to make your bet more than 1/3 of the pot (total pot once your bet is in there) so as not to give him odds - make sense?

>Ok, I need to figure out the potodds part of the game ? - seems a little >overkill at startup level, or is it possible to get a feeling for it from >experience.

Do you know how to calculate outs - eg. Probability of drawing = number of outs x2?

So for example if you have 4 to a straight and it's a gutshot (ie. a straight draw like 10,j,k,a where only a queen can help you) then you have 4 queens left in the unseen cards that will help, and with 2 cards in your hand and 3 on the flop there are 52-5 = 47 unseen cards. So the probability of drawing a queen on the next card is 4/47 which is approximately 1/12 or about 8.5% - so you can call up to 8% of the pot on the flop to see the turn and about 8% of the pot at the turn to see the river. Notice that 8.5% is about twice 4 (the number of outs)

Similar example for a flush - you have 4 to a flush after seeing the flop, there are 9 cards of your suit left in the deck (13 minus the 4 already out) and 47 unseen cards, 9/47 = about 19% so you can call up to 19% of the pot to see the next card. Odds over both unseen cards (turn and river) are about twice the 1-card-odds, but not quite for some reason that I can't remember. Notice that 19 is about twice 9 (the number of outs)

>So in the end you want to bet more than your opponent can afford to >lose on a particular hand, chasing a flush for instance. - Ok got it. ( >haven't gotten it at all but looking forward to reading a lot about it )

You have the general idea, calculating outs is easy even if you're not much on maths - I'd advise doing a google search for "pot odds" and "calculating outs" and see what you find.

Fnord is right too - drop down to 1c/2c or 5c/10c until you've gotten this, won't take you long and you'll probably save yourself a hammering at the higher stakes. Pokerstars has micro limit tables and so do a number of other places, I'm not especially singling out or recommending poker stars, just that I've played there and the micro limits are very beatable.

BTW - are you playing ring, tourney or both?

To answer what I play: (ringgames)
right now I play standard low limit longhand but it is getting a little boring, since it is too predictable - I play tight and make money even if I see that I still suck at the game, thats boring !
I hope to make a transit to shorthand NL... and have tried a couple of freezeout tournaments, (inexpensive way to play NL/Pot limit, seems a little wild though and you can't keep a steady 'n tight pace in tourneys - I tend to end up in the middle)

Thank you TylerDurden for the VERY good explanation. I will try to mermorize the potodds tables at this site, and with this explanation I actually can say I know how to use 'em. The thing that I sort of didn't get before was the connection to the current potsize (it is called potodds) and the connection to that ; betting slightly below your own potodds and making your opponent bet above his will give you a headsup odds of more than 50%....In the long run. That is the general idea - right - making the longterm odds >50% heads up...?

Ok, so that means you can more or less calculate what your opponent has ?

Very simplified something like:
Say pot is 100$
flop: Ah 5h 9c
if opponent bet 18$ <--- flushdraw
if opponent bet 50$ <--- Ace - he is ahead 'n want to punish your flushdraw (or whatever amount would be appropriate)

So far, I haven't read a single holdem book, I have a feeling it is time for that now...waiting on Sklanskys advanced player book from the local library.

Thank's to everyone for GREAT advice.

just read another thread on strategies for shorthand - seems like I'd have to loosen up a bit !?
I think I'll try a longhand ringgame instead... would you lads and gals think that a solid tight game would work better in such a game ? It's the only freakin play I know

Yes, a very tight style is more profitable at full-ring than short-handed.

I do pretty well playing tight in short-handed games. I think it's mostly a myth that a super aggressive style necessarily works short-handed.

The thinking seems to be that you're less likely to encounter an opponent with a hand short-handed, and so you can get away with bluffing people out. While it's true that your opponents probably don't have hands most of the time, the fact is that if an opponent is putting money in the pot, he probably has something. Once an opponent has entered the pot, the situation is no different than in a full ring game.