Another ring game hand gone bad...

Here's another wonderful moment from Royal Vegas 6 max NL.

Dealt K9o (neither is a spade) in the BB. A couple limpers. I check.

Flop is K 9 rag, 2 spades.

I bet, I get raised, I reraise a modest amount and get called (the others fold).

Turn is another rag spade. Crap.

I bet out fairly large (explanation to follow) and just get called.

River is a J, non-spade. Double crap.

I value bet, get re-raised big....and I'd like to tell you I made the senisble fold but sadly I was on tilt at this point, partly because this player had bluffed me into folding the best hand a couple of times by this point

Thoughts:

1. Betting out on the flop = fine. Re-raise on flop = fine, but should have been a larger amount or even a push.

2. Betting the turn = still fine since his flop re-raise is more likely to represent a king hand rather than a flush draw and I should protect against yet another spade hitting.

3. Value betting the river = possible mistake, since KJ just became a hand I can't beat. Value betting might still not be bad since checking might induce a bluff by a worse hand, but I think it's time to slow down when the J hits.

4. Obviously, calling the huge river re-raise was moronic. As I said, I was tilitng....no need to kick me while I'm down

Thoughts?

filling out a Banning Request Form on drnochance for moronic calling!

flop - i'd say a big overbet is in order (i'm guessing the pot isn't real big at this point with no raising preflop). make him really pay to see another card. on his reraise, push all-in as you most likely have the best hand at this point.

turn - your bet's ok here

river - i hate these situations. normally, i'd say fold to the reraise, but if he's been pushing you off of pots, tough call. was he the type that would limp in with AK/KQ? KJ off would have been a limp most likely. if he had the flush, he probably would have made his raise more callable.

i'll say call - what happened?

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

Thoughts:

1. Betting out on the flop = fine. Re-raise on flop = fine, but should have been a larger amount or even a push.

2. Betting the turn = still fine since his flop re-raise is more likely to represent a king hand rather than a flush draw and I should protect against yet another spade hitting.

3. Value betting the river = possible mistake, since KJ just became a hand I can't beat. Value betting might still not be bad since checking might induce a bluff by a worse hand, but I think it's time to slow down when the J hits.

4. Obviously, calling the huge river re-raise was moronic. As I said, I was tilitng....no need to kick me while I'm down

Thoughts?

I agree with betting out on the flop. I also agree with re-raising. Not sure how much yuor actual re-raise was but my thinking would be take it down there or see if you get any calls for information with that re-raise. On the turn when that third spade came down, I slow down I think. With your re-raise on the flop, anyone with 2 spades in their hand is going to slow play figuring that you will show aggression since you reraise the flop. So, i slow down here and check and call the turn. When the J came on the river I'd be thinking that there is a good possibility that I am now beaten by either a flush or KJ. I check and call (if the bet is reasonable).

On a side note, Dr., I'm starting to feel responsible for getting you over to Royal Vegas.

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

On a side note, Dr., I'm starting to feel responsible for getting you over to Royal Vegas.

I hope you're enjoying that referral money, jm. I really, really do.

I'm thinking he had a set.

With the raise and re-raise on the flop, I doubt you'd be semi-bluffing a flush-draw from the BB. What was the opps position?

He'd be surprised to find you have a flush, though you might have easily hit two pair, and he's raising you big. I think higher two pair or a set, easy.

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

On a side note, Dr., I'm starting to feel responsible for getting you over to Royal Vegas.

I hope you're enjoying that referral money, jm. I really, really do.

Ha!

Actually, as of Wednesday afternoon, it said that you had not met the requirements (minimum deposit of $20 and 100 raked hands on a .25/.50 stake or higher table) for me to get the referral bonus. So, I'm not enjoying anything yet!

Seriously, if I ever see you on at Royal Vegas, all you have to do to rutn your ring game follies around is play with me for a few hands. But, I'd be sure to do it before September is over. This month is kicking my ASS! My worst month by far.

I'm sorry to hear your month has been about as good as mine, jm.

I probably need to play enough hands to clear my bonus before you get yours...I think I've probably played about 350-400 or so by now so it shouldn't be too long. I don't intend to leave RV before I get my bonus, regardless of what further pain the ring tables may bring me.



For the curious, the other guy in my hand example had the K5 of spades. He probably thought he had 3 outs with the 5s in addition to the spades, so I doubt anything short of a push all-in on the flop makes him go away before the turn. I had a hard time putting him on the flush draw semi-bluff since he raised me without having the button. He had 1-2 people behind him yet to act.

Re-raise the flop big.
Check the turn.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Check the turn.

Can you really put him on a flush draw on the flop when he raised without position?

It seems like checking is a whole lot more likely to be giving a 2nd best hand a chance to catch up rather than paying off a made flush.

As it turns out, he had a king and a flush draw, which I knew was a slim possibility.

I've just read a chapter in TOP that kind of deals with this....betting a hand that's very vulnerable if it is the best yet runs a serious risk of being already beaten.

I respect your opinion greatly and I'm sure many others would agree with checking the turn, but I hate the fact I didn't re-raise the flop huge way more than the fact that I bet the turn.

And I hate the fact that I called on the river most of all

I'm more inclined to check+call, as I would think he's more likely to bluff a flush than call with a weaker hand once the flush hits. Once the scare card hits, I'm looking for ways to bring this to showdown on the cheap. If you had position then the river bet was also a big mistake. This isn't limit where you can get away with thin value bets. If you had position (was unclear in the post), then betting the turn intending to check the river is a fine line to take, but I would make it a "value" bet amount, just enough to make him think he can check/raise the river.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I'm more inclined to check+call, as I would think he's more likely to bluff a flush than call with a weaker hand once the flush hits.

Hmmm. Interesting point.

And no, I didn't have position with my river bet. He had the button at that point. Still a mistake (I believe so)?

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

And no, I didn't have position with my river bet. He had the button at that point. Still a mistake (I believe so)?

Tough spot to be in. I don't think there are any easy answers, although hitting the breaks is a good start.

When you're out of postion, then you should be more inclined to get your money in on the flop because you can't take away a round of future betting.