any reason to think Im not ahead here?

***** Hand History for Game 1593224573 *****
$200 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, February 15, 00:23:07 EDT 2005
Table Table 14444 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 8: acesup86 ( $1278.48 )
Seat 10: eltiger ( $512.43 )
Seat 1: cashcow714 ( $208.98 )
Seat 6: thuan123179 ( $469.42 )
Seat 4: MikeD05 ( $591.33 )
Seat 9: liya101 ( $212 )
Seat 2: All_in_777 ( $161.33 )
Seat 7: Crexis1 ( $269.9 )
Seat 5: B0RAT ( $242.6 )
Seat 3: Okkie ( $228.5 )
liya101 posts small blind [$2].
eltiger posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to acesup86 [ 5s 7s ]
cashcow714 calls [$4].
All_in_777 folds.
Okkie folds.
MikeD05 folds.
B0RAT calls [$4].
thuan123179 raises [$8].
Crexis1 folds.
acesup86 raises [$20].
liya101 folds.
eltiger folds.
cashcow714 folds.
B0RAT folds.
>You have options at Table 24981 Table!.
thuan123179 calls [$12].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, 4s, As ]
thuan123179 bets [$10].
acesup86 raises [$45].
thuan123179 calls [$35].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
thuan123179 checks.
acesup86 checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 8c ]
thuan123179 is all-In [$404.42]
acesup86 calls [$404.42].
thuan123179 shows [ Ks, Js ] a flush, ace high.
acesup86 shows [ 5s, 7s ] a flush, ace high.
thuan123179 wins $949.84 from the main pot with a flush, ace high with king kicker.

That is rough.

Curious - why even play the hand, let alone raise pre-flop?

Any reason to think about raising this hand preflop?

There's not much you can do about the flop, it's just as easy to put him on a weakish ace (AT?) as it is to put him on two higher spades.

Good example of hyper-aggressive play, which often inverts traditional tactics completely. He raises with what is pretty much garbage to represent a big pocket pair and try to steal the weak calls and raise before him. When that doesn't pan out he raises big on the flop continuing to rep a premium hand (trip aces, or TPTK) while also disguising the draw he picked up. Then somewhat ironically he checks when he finally makes a hand - indulging a little bit of slowplay (potentially dangerous if another spade were to come out). It's a good tactic to make more money on the hand, assuming your opponent didn't make a higher flush (which most of the time they would not have). My only criticism of the play here is that betting any amount on the turn might have given you an opportunity to get away from the hand - not that you probably would have. But a bet there would very likely trigger a raise from the other flush, and you can consider your options.

As far as the thread's original question - if there's any way to detect the higher flush - I'd say not really. In hindsight you can see why he made all the moves he did (although calling your raises pre-flop and post-flop is pretty weak... unless he has a read on you that you bluff a lot, in which case he's playing it correctly).

If you look at how he was betting the only card he didnt bet on was the turn. Its human nature that reguardless of how you played the hand until you hit the monster card you will slowplay when that card hits. Which is exactly what he did, if you notice he raised or came out betting until the turn came down, this is the only time while being in first position he checked. It looks like he wanted to try to extract more chips from you when he hit the flush, lucky for him you had the same thing only lower. From looking at the hand that is really the only tell i can get from this hand is that he hit it. You did have a draw and had to think you where beat on the flop. Doesnt mean i didnt like your play, but be wery when an aggressive opponent checks, its usually decieving.

Originally Posted by Yeldud

That is rough.

Curious - why even play the hand, let alone raise pre-flop?

If you're gonna play these, raise 'em. That's just how I feel. They haven't got all that much intrinsic value unless you can limp along with many other folks. By raising, you add considerable deception-value.

Only thing that surprises me is that opp called yr reraise.

That all-in is a scorcher. 400 dollars into about $120 !! Is this the tail end of a streak? It doesn't usually pay to sit in NL with 300 BB, and >2 X anyone else's stack. Turn bet might've helped, but when that much money is moving around I'm damn near useless.

Originally Posted by LeFou

That all-in is a scorcher. 400 dollars into about $120 !! Is this the tail end of a streak? It doesn't usually pay to sit in NL with 300 BB, and >2 X anyone else's stack. Turn bet might've helped, but when that much money is moving around I'm damn near useless.

He's sitting with > $1200 at a $200 max buy-in NL table, so, yes, he's on a streak.

I definitely would have bet the turn. With a baby flush you need to protect against a fourth card of your suit falling. Still, flush over flush, you're probably getting it all in either way.

BTW, I always thought it advantageous to be the biggest stack at the table. Am I wrong?

Originally Posted by koolmoe

BTW, I always thought it advantageous to be the biggest stack at the table. Am I wrong?

In NL I usually like to have at least one person with almost as many chips as I've got, so I have doubling opportunities.

With a stack like this, everyone's gunning for you, trying to double off YOUR stack. No fun.

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Good example of hyper-aggressive play, which often inverts traditional tactics completely. He raises with what is pretty much garbage to represent a big pocket pair and try to steal the weak calls and raise before him. When that doesn't pan out he raises big on the flop continuing to rep a premium hand (trip aces, or TPTK) while also disguising the draw he picked up. Then somewhat ironically he checks when he finally makes a hand - indulging a little bit of slowplay (potentially dangerous if another spade were to come out). It's a good tactic to make more money on the hand, assuming your opponent didn't make a higher flush (which most of the time they would not have). My only criticism of the play here is that betting any amount on the turn might have given you an opportunity to get away from the hand - not that you probably would have. But a bet there would very likely trigger a raise from the other flush, and you can consider your options.

As far as the thread's original question - if there's any way to detect the higher flush - I'd say not really. In hindsight you can see why he made all the moves he did (although calling your raises pre-flop and post-flop is pretty weak... unless he has a read on you that you bluff a lot, in which case he's playing it correctly).

I think you made a great summary of how I was thinking while I was playing the hand...as far as checking the turn this guy was an idiot and would go all in at the first sign of weakness....I was willing to risk a spade coming as long as I could take his whole stack....When he pushed on the river it was an immediate call as I thought I had led him into my trap perfectly turns out he had the nuts.

Wow. Talk about some outside the box thinking.

He was obviously looking for a check raise on the turn. Not sure what the hell he was doing seeing the flop and turn though.

Its hard to give completely unbiased feedback knowing the results, but seriously, I would figure you've got this guy owned when he goes all in. I'd figure he has trip J's. Based on preflop and flop play, it's hard for me to put him on many other hands. Mayyyyyyybe AK. Definitely not KK because you'd think he'd be out after the flop raise.

I think you played it well and got a nice flop/turn. Unfortunately he played it poorly and got a better flop/turn.

This hand history reminded me a lot of a hand I just played this afternoon. (besides losing that much money. I lost about $150 on that hand.)

I was playing at the NL $100 tables. Had suited connectors (hearts) and raised the initial raiser's $6 PF raise. Flop came (A T4 --T and 4 being hearts) He led out on flop betting 2/3rd the pot. I raised it to $40 trying to rep AA. He called. Turn came a heart. Both checked. River came a blank. He went allin. Me thinking I trapped him and quickly called. He shows Ax Hearts for the nut flush.

This hand is still going through my mind haunting me. Thought I played it fine. Guess I really shouldnt be calling a raise w/ those cards.

This is a great example of a NL hand.
The only mistake that I think occured in the hand was his call pre-flop.

He thought you were bluffing. His flop bet is about right for a flush draw. Your flop raise is about right for a bluff. Your check on the turn is weakness to him. He's a gambler. Jees Aces, I see this stuff all the time on the .01/.02 NL tables at Party.

I have been playing textbook FTR tight-aggressive poker where strange 1/16 pot bets like 4 cents into a 64 cent pot gets 5 callers. Every time I play TPTK aggressively everyone thinks I am stealing! The harder I bet the more they think it's a bluff!

Welcome to the NL twilight zone...

Oh, I am coming up to first 10,000 hands soon. lol.