Bankroll management questions etc.

Ok, so I'm a long time profitable online player but apparently I've probably been gambling a lot more then playing solid long term poker. Usually what I'd do is deposit say $400 and sit at four 1/2NL tables with $100 each. Play very tight agressive, (Fold anything but AK, 22-AA pre OOP) and raise in position with QJs+, 22+ and lots of suited connectors. Rarely call preflop, usually raise for info or fold.

So every time I double up at a table I leave and then every time I get up $200 I cash out the $200 and keep playing with the $400. Every time my BR halves I dropped limits. Apparently surprsingly (by reading around this forum and some other sources) it is a miracle that I'm consistently positive doing this (about 3.5 years now off and on). I get cleaned out of my deposit here and there and then take a break from poker because I tilt hard from multiple bad beats. (Hence the cashing out rather then building a BR) because I do not trust myself.

So anyways after that background info, I have decided I want to re-evaluate my game and start playing properly (full stack, larger br, no cleanouts). And would like some advice.

I was thinking of a $400 bankroll for 50NL... Only 8 BIs but I think maybe it suits me because after losing 8 BIs I doubt I could concentrate on playing properly, because I'm assuming in that situation I would have had to have awful luck. My other reasoning for the $400 level and 50NL is I think at 25NL it will be such small stakes compared to what I'm used to (usually 1/2 but often take a fullstack to 2/4 or 5/10 trying to get lucky if I'm on a big hotsteak) that I will not be able to make myself play properly. Also on Titanpoker most people at that level sit with like 5-10$.

50NL I think I could concentrate on. Any suggestions of a better strategy? Is 800BBs really way to small? I noticed a lot of people play with way more, but I just paid $22000 for school tuition and I don't exactly have money to burn. Thanks!

Originally Posted by eragotte

apparently I've probably been gambling a lot more then playing solid long term poker.

Originally Posted by eragotte

because I do not trust myself.

"Trusting yourself" or self-discipline is a huge part of getting better at poker. A very good player with bad self-discipline can only get so far.

Originally Posted by eragotte

I have decided I want to re-evaluate my game and start playing properly

Originally Posted by eragotte

I was thinking of a $400 bankroll for 50NL... Only 8 BIs

Lot of inconsistency there. $400 BR is not recommended to even play 25NL. You say you want to start playing properly but want to play with 8 buyins? That is still gambling. Loooooooong down swings does happen in poker (that is when your self-discipline is truely tested) and 8 buyins is not enough unless your planning on reloading. If your plan is to never reload and build up a bigger bankroll, I highly suggest you deposit more or work your way up from the micro's. The bankroll management concept is simple math. Just do the math and you will see why playing under rolled is so bad. Even the best player in the world will go busto if they do not follow proper bankroll management.

20 buyins seems so hectic, the math makes sense but hmm. So different than what I'm used to. So I guess it would be a $500 deposit and 25NL grinding. No support at all for doing my strategy then if I run real bad just give up lol... guess that sounds pretty retarded when i think about it. Well birthday is on sunday, the question is do I spend bday money on a bankroll and an upgrade to 22inch monitor from my 14inch dell laptop screen or do I quit the poker idea and continue on the investment banking path...

thanks for the post.. I guess it's now a question of do I 500$ BR 25nl and be a poker player or just continue as .. I guess a gambler.

Give poker a real shot, it's fun! Just deposit for 25NL and your goals shouldn't be making as much as $$$ as possible right off the bat but understanding the game better, learning to play 100BB effective stacks better, etc. If you see your having fun, it will be much easier to get better and move up in the stakes and then make some serious $$.

IB path will be a rough one in these economic times.

Best of luck to ya on whichever path you choose!

haha I got an internship offer with merrill lynch toronto :P or I guess now I should say Bank of America investment banking arm or something? They've lost 54m a day in the last year, doubt I'd be getting any bonus :P turned it down. I'm going to give the 25nl a shot, work on poker skillzzz not short term profit. Thanks for the advice. Going to start monday the 23rd, going on a snowboard trip sunday.

Originally Posted by eragotte

20 buyins seems so hectic, the math makes sense but hmm. So different than what I'm used to. So I guess it would be a $500 deposit and 25NL grinding. No support at all for doing my strategy then if I run real bad just give up lol... guess that sounds pretty retarded when i think about it. Well birthday is on sunday, the question is do I spend bday money on a bankroll and an upgrade to 22inch monitor from my 14inch dell laptop screen or do I quit the poker idea and continue on the investment banking path...

thanks for the post.. I guess it's now a question of do I 500$ BR 25nl and be a poker player or just continue as .. I guess a gambler.

Buy a $450 monitor, put $50 into PS and grind 2NL... in a week you are at $150, grind 5NL.. in 2 weeks you are at $300. Grind 10NL.. in 1-2 months you are at $700. Grind 25L.. etc etc etc.

yeh I get the idea but for that kinda money might as well work at hasty market

Originally Posted by eragotte

yeh I get the idea but for that kinda money might as well work at hasty market

grinding the micros is more about learning to play poker properly (instead of being a nit halfstacker) than it is making money.

This IS a game of patience after all

I would rather sit on front of my PC clicking my mouse rather than work at a super market. Also, you should not be withdrawing the money you make at those stakes. It's all to build up a roll to get to higher stakes where you can make reasonable money.

Alright, what you are saying makes sense. I actually probably have a lot to learn. Mind checking out the new thread I just made? Obviously it'll now be at much lower stakes, but likely still very relevant.

Read this before proceeding.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...highlight=suck

long term winner ? how many hands is that ?
ur roll management is way bad to be making steady profit to say the least....

Seems to me you don't know what rake is, and if you knew you would know you were a loser in the game

Originally Posted by eragotte

Ok, so I'm a long time profitable online player but apparently I've probably been gambling a lot more then playing solid long term poker. Usually what I'd do is deposit say $400 and sit at four 1/2NL tables with $100 each. Play very tight agressive, (Fold anything but AK, 22-AA pre OOP) and raise in position with QJs+, 22+ and lots of suited connectors. Rarely call preflop, usually raise for info or fold.

This sounds like Phil Hellmuth strategy. Have you read one of his books?

If so, I really recommend you ignore nearly everything you read.

You're playing with 20 buy-ins NOT because you think you'll lose all of them, but because if you go to say 15 buy-ins you can move down a stake where you'll have 30 again

so you're letting yourself never bust out by playing this way and you can actually move UP stakes

long term winner ? how many hands is that ?
ur roll management is way bad to be making steady profit to say the least....


400k ish hands... I get up, cash some, cleaned eventually and redeposit... I track every transaction I make though, peak is up $5910, low point is like $900.

You're playing with 20 buy-ins NOT because you think you'll lose all of them, but because if you go to say 15 buy-ins you can move down a stake where you'll have 30 again

so you're letting yourself never bust out by playing this way and you can actually move UP stakes

yeh I know that, I guess I basically wanted someone to support going under rolled lol. How about this, I deposit 400, play 50NL, if I run good I keep playing there, if I ever run bad and drop to 250 I go to 10NL and do it proper.

400,000 ? hands ? well if ur winning after that long and u like moving up down stakes after every 3 bad pots and u have no prob with that sure it can work... if u play on 40-50 buyin roll u could be playing same stakes and m ove up i think thats all there is to it.

My buddy was telling me about how he's a winning tourney player last week at dinner with the wives. He plays a ton of $20 and $35 tourneys. We talked a ton of poker and he struck me as not very good at all. We went back to their place for coffee and a movie and we went to look at his poker set up and he wanted me to show him a few things. While talking we decided to look at his "books". We added all his deposits, withdrawals and RB added to the account. He has lost $6000 since taking up poker last May/08. He has made many withdrawals as well, but had no clue he was actually losing. He has finally taken my advice about BR. And will no longer be playing $35 STT's and MTT's

You may want to really look over your idea of being a winning player because I can almost guarantee that if your playing $200NL w/$100 stacks your losing. Your strat sounds very exploitable to me, and I would actually search out a player like you when playing. Maybe ship me your SN on Titan and I will see if your in my database and how you do.

Jyms:
buying 50bb deep has nothing to do with being a winning or loosing player.

Lol... I know how to record my transactions, I'm not some blue collar idiot depositing his 40 hr a week paycheck on party poker winning 1/15 sit n gos and thinking I make money. I have detailed tracks of every withdraw, every deposit, and every session. I realize my strategy is not ideal, hence I'm asking for more advice on this forum...

eragotte (TTR91882042) is my username. I'm up 140 this month, about 570 from my peak up this month. I haven't played at titan much overall.

But anyways if anyone else has any comments etc, happy to hear em. It's my bday though and I'm heading to Tremblant to board for a few days, check back on the 18th

Originally Posted by mediumhand

Jyms:
buying 50bb deep has nothing to do with being a winning or loosing player.

Playing 22-66 from early position and lots of SC's in LP with only 50BB's does. Both his 50BB and his hand selection have a ton to do with being a losing player. Do you not think that someone playing and raising about 10% of hands in LP on my Hud would be super exploitable? The blinds and rake would eat him alive playing this way vs any decent opponents. And don't think there isn't enough decent opponents at $200NL to at least have the aptitude to do this.

Originally Posted by jyms

Originally Posted by mediumhand

Jyms:
buying 50bb deep has nothing to do with being a winning or loosing player.

Playing 22-66 from early position and lots of SC's in LP with only 50BB's does. Both his 50BB and his hand selection have a ton to do with being a losing player. Do you not think that someone playing and raising about 10% of hands in LP on my Hud would be super exploitable? The blinds and rake would eat him alive playing this way vs any decent opponents. And don't think there isn't enough decent opponents at $200NL to at least have the aptitude to do this.

sry but this is totaly wrong.

Well put, your right

well accept it or not.... i didnt meant to offend you in any way. but its fact you can play profitably that way @ nl200. i think thers even post @ ftr about half stacking by someone, i'm not sure. maybe you should read that and educate urself there.. raising 66- is totaly standard eartly. and opening up late positions its good idea but just cos u dont steal 40% dont mean ur not beating the limit.

well I decided to 20 bi br at 50nl... lost 3 bi's quick first day with some ugly luck but ran better so far today and made one back... a couple bad plays like not getting off JJ when I knew i was beat but overall didnt play to bad. really liking the big br though, stops me from tilting after beats as well.

If you played 400k hands and the peak was up 6k - assuming you're currently at the peak, then you've made 0.38ptbb/100. That's not solid. Most people here have a better winrate at 25NL when it comes to $$$/hr. Nevermind that you can drop all your winnings in a hurry if you go on a bad run.
Even 20BI's at 50NL is asking for it. I had an 18BI downswing at 50NL last month and it hasn't left as much as a dent in my BR. Some of it could have been avoided if I was tilt resistant, but I'm not, and neither are you.
I strongly suggest you get some tracking program. Holdem Manager or Poker Tracker should do.

you play on pokerstars? what's your SN?

good luck mate!

Originally Posted by mediumhand

Originally Posted by jyms

Originally Posted by mediumhand

Jyms:
buying 50bb deep has nothing to do with being a winning or loosing player.

Playing 22-66 from early position and lots of SC's in LP with only 50BB's does. Both his 50BB and his hand selection have a ton to do with being a losing player. Do you not think that someone playing and raising about 10% of hands in LP on my Hud would be super exploitable? The blinds and rake would eat him alive playing this way vs any decent opponents. And don't think there isn't enough decent opponents at $200NL to at least have the aptitude to do this.

sry but this is totaly wrong.

Wow.

Blow off good advice, if you want, but Jyms knows what he's talkin' about here, imo.

GL, dude. Hope poker works out for you.

If you played 400k hands and the peak was up 6k - assuming you're currently at the peak, then you've made 0.38ptbb/100. That's not solid. Most people here have a better winrate at 25NL when it comes to $$$/hr. Nevermind that you can drop all your winnings in a hurry if you go on a bad run.
Even 20BI's at 50NL is asking for it. I had an 18BI downswing at 50NL last month and it hasn't left as much as a dent in my BR. Some of it could have been avoided if I was tilt resistant, but I'm not, and neither are you.


far from peak currently, hence change of style. and i know it aint good. im up 7 buyins last 5 hours or so using proper br management and listening to some of the other comments here. i appreciate all the advice guys even if i fight it a little

and i play titan, not stars (eragotte)

Use the quote button, please.

20BI is not what most people here consider proper br management above 2NL.
If you're serious about your game, post some hands, get a tracker program and have your stats reviewed.

well as an update. i bummed around for a while not fully listening to bankroll management. couldnt stay as interest at lower limits. now i read a sklansky book and i feel like i have learned alot more. Ive decided to start at 25NL with a 500$ roll. If I drop below 450 Ill grind back up with 10NL and so on. Im on fulltilt under the sn ERAGOTTE. come sit at my table and say hi, or search how I am doing at high stakes database thanks guys.

Good luck to you...

But I don't see why you even bother to post here, when you're not going to liten to anyone and play 5/10 the smame day you're posting this.

posting your stats wont help none bothers lol

i havent played anything over 10c25c/// its old stats bud, look at the date

Sorry, my mistake... mixed up career peak and best day on ptr.

sorry for my comment...need 10 posts for posting url links

Originally Posted by etsocaL

sorry for my comment...need 10 posts for posting url links

ban plz