BB really doesn't want me stealing his $.50...

Bodog 50NL. Hero is in SB w/ :Jh::Jd:. Everyone folds to the blinds. Hero raises $2. Villain/BB pushes. Hero and Villain both have ~$35 stacks. (Yes, I would normally rebuy, but Bodog's shitty software keeps you from rebuying when you're multitabling).

Anyways, my thinking--Villain seemed like typical bad Bodog player, although he wasn't an obvious maniac. I didn't put him on QQ-AA, b/c 99 times out of 100 these players sneakily minraise w/ those hands. Also, I thought the push had a certain "Fuck you for trying to steal my blind" quality to it. I called.

Thoughts?

i dont really see the point, i just fold.

has he done this before?

if the answer is no, I'd fold. I'd expect to see a bigger pair or AK here most of the time.

He hadn't done this before. I really didn't put him on QQ-AA, b/c of how most players at this level and site play high PPs. I often see this kind of play with 88-JJ, since these guys hate having to play middle-highish PPs postflop and figure they're a coinflip if they get called. Those hands we dominate in this situation and in all other cases (AK, AQ, etc.) we still want our money in the middle, no?

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

I thought the push had a certain "Fuck you for trying to steal my blind" quality to it.

If the opponent is smart enough, he is looking to present this. If the opponent is by chance pushing weak, but hasn't been out of line up to this point, then you give him a donk mulligan.

Generally speaking, from a metagame standpoint, this is a coinflip or less longterm against an unknown.

If an opponent earns respect, it means you should respect them.

Hahaha. "Donk mulligan"--that's good. You should have your own comedy blog...

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

You should have your own comedy blog...

Ha ha .

just because "most" of the players on the site play that way doesn't give you an excuse to call this. its an easy fold and a terribly hard call. so fold

just because "most" of the players on the site play that way doesn't give you an excuse to call this. its an easy fold and a terribly hard call. so fold

Bair, thanks for your opinion--I'm gonna argue my point a bit more, but I don't want to come off like one of those people that post a HH asking for critques and then defend it to the death. However...

Isn't the fact that most players at whatever site/buyin level play a certain way, exactly the point? I mean, most winning players' games are modeled on assumptions based on countless iterations of certain hands. This is particularly true, I think, at specific buyin levels and sites--you get a feel for how the average player plays a hand and you play your hand accordingly, especially in situations like this, where you have little other info to work with. It seems like very strange logic to say that I should fold here in spite of what I feel most players would do.

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

at specific buyin levels and sites--you get a feel for how the average player plays a hand and you play your hand accordingly, especially in situations like this, where you have little other info to work with.

I disagree. Don't allow the status quo of a particular table or level to excuse you from individual reads which are readily available. If the individual read hasn't revealed itself yet, then don't lose a stack over it.

I do see that a lot though.. pushing the middelish pps and slowplaying their real monsters..

Originally Posted by jackvance

I do see that a lot though.. pushing the middelish pps and slowplaying their real monsters..

I agree. Low stakes metagame at it's finest. The thing to be aware of is some people are pushing high pockets straight out because they often get a call from something like 66-JJ AQ AK AJ AT KQ. It all brings you back to knowing the opponent.

The thing to be aware of is some people are pushing high pockets straight out because they often get a call from something like 66-JJ AQ AK AJ AT KQ.

Possible, but I can tell you that after a couple of weeks playing at Bodog to clear a huge bonus, I have never seen this situation arise. The percentage breakdown of the hands I've seen anyone push PF like this has been something like:

77-JJ ~%50
A2-AK/KQ/KJ/QJ (remember this is Bodog we're talking about) ~30%
Assorted garbage ~ 20%

If the individual read hasn't revealed itself yet, then don't lose a stack over it.

I do like this advice, though.

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

He hadn't done this before. I really didn't put him on QQ-AA, b/c of how most players at this level and site play high PPs. I often see this kind of play with 88-JJ, since these guys hate having to play middle-highish PPs postflop and figure they're a coinflip if they get called. Those hands we dominate in this situation and in all other cases (AK, AQ, etc.) we still want our money in the middle, no?

He could be a good player. It is pretty rare to have solid players at this level, I know.. but they do exist. No reads I fold.

all i know is that making calls like this using the same logic as you did is the reason i went bust 8 billion times before i built a roll. making this call just because most bodog players play it this way is just like making a call using racial or gender profiling to get a read, which i assume is something you wouldn't do. just because he is a bodog player, doesnt mean he plays anything like the other players. you have no reason to lose your stack over a generic read which may not even be true.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying and I don't usually make these kinds of marginal EV calls. Just felt like this was an example of one where you could justify a call w/ very little added info...

I have to disagree w/ you guys on the "make no plays except based on individual play" thing. I think there's lots of moves that you make at certain buy-in levels b/c with a certain amount of experience you find that they work against the majority of players. That's why moving up levels is hard. In fact the way people play poker is generic patterning slightly tailored to specific situations.

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

That's why moving up levels is hard. In fact the way people play poker is generic patterning slightly tailored to specific situations.

I totally agree here. But still I personally need some sort of a read before I use this information to risk my stack, or a huge chunk of it. It's often so easy to get a read on how a person plays, since they keep doing the same thing in generic ways over and over, and all you need to see are a few showdowns to put em in categories like:

- Slowplay monsters/overplay marginal hands+draws
- Slowplay everything
- Nutcamp and push the nuts only
- Goes aggressive every time he senses weakness
- Goes aggressive all the time, a hand or not
- Passive but calls down everything
etc

.. and then it's so much easier to play against them.


Today I made a play based 100% on a read that I was pretty proud of. Big stack guy, sitting to my right. I pretty quickly pegged him as the kind of player who standard waits for good cards and will always value bet them aggressively, and isn't afraid to call you down when he doesn't believe you either. (these guys often do really well at the lower stakes) In one hand he raised pretty hard (my read: probably not the best hand, he would raise that less), I called. He bet the flop pretty hard, I called with overpair. Turn gives an overcard. He checks. I bet 2/3 pot, and he c/r me. Now, something didn't add up here.. I got this "feeling" this was a bluff. If he had a made hand, I would have expected him to have bet it. I call, river is a blank. He pushes. Any other player and this would have signified defeat (board was like KTT74 and I had QQ), but here it really seemed like a bully tactic. So I called, and won the $25 pot.

He had A9o btw. And you could say I should have raised him preflop, but why tip off the fact that I saw through his strategy of betting his weaker hands harder to represent a monster?..

I call here so fast.

Originally Posted by samsonite2100

(Yes, I would normally rebuy, but Bodog's shitty software keeps you from rebuying when you're multitabling)

Why would anyone multi table on Bodog if this is the case.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I call here so fast.

maybe I'm just a nit, or maybe the play on pokerstars is just different then other sites. But I see this move so rarely (on all streets), and when I do see it, it's usually the nuts. That applies to postflop moreso then preflop, but still, on the rare occassions someone THIS deep pushes over a standard raise, it's because they have something big.

I used to do this with AA when stars still had the reload...


POKERSTARS GAME #4581243562: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/04/10 - 08:02:46 (ET)
Table 'Scutum III' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: ThE MyZeR ($97.45 in chips)
Seat 2: danuk ($96.85 in chips)
Seat 3: sporadic ($101.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Enzoenzini ($112.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Lukieplaya ($135.95 in chips)
Seat 6: HenryFnord ($100 in chips)
Seat 7: Majin Legacy ($117.20 in chips)
Seat 8: ouya22 ($25.40 in chips)
Seat 9: berggren ($106.35 in chips)
Lukieplaya: posts small blind $0.50
HenryFnord: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [Ad As]
Majin Legacy: folds
ouya22: folds
berggren: folds
ThE MyZeR: folds
danuk: folds
sporadic: folds
Enzoenzini: folds
Lukieplaya: raises $134.95 to $135.95 and is all-in
HenryFnord said, "lol, I should so call this"
HenryFnord: folds
Lukieplaya collected $2 from pot
Lukieplaya: doesn't show hand
Lukieplaya said, "lol what did u have?"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2 | Rake $0
Seat 1: ThE MyZeR folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: danuk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: sporadic folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Enzoenzini (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Lukieplaya (small blind) collected ($2)
Seat 6: HenryFnord (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Majin Legacy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: ouya22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: berggren folded before Flop (didn't bet)


POKERSTARS GAME #4215664398: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/03/08 - 05:06:46 (ET)
Table 'Tydeus' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: Joel13 ($46.05 in chips)
Seat 3: HenryFnord ($143.70 in chips)
Seat 4: Illuminati2 ($109.60 in chips)
Seat 5: Lukieplaya ($205.85 in chips)
Seat 6: LetMeTakeDat ($102.95 in chips)
Seat 7: tracer3232 ($130.15 in chips)
Seat 8: zultan ($82 in chips)
Seat 9: angouvine ($102.95 in chips)
Illuminati2: posts small blind $0.50
Lukieplaya: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [Ah As]
LetMeTakeDat: folds
tracer3232: folds
zultan: folds
angouvine: folds
Joel13: folds
HenryFnord: folds
Illuminati2: calls $0.50
Lukieplaya: raises $43 to $44
Illuminati2: folds
Lukieplaya collected $2 from pot
Lukieplaya said, "oops"
Lukieplaya said, "lol"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2 | Rake $0
Seat 2: Joel13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: HenryFnord (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Illuminati2 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Lukieplaya (big blind) collected ($2)
Seat 6: LetMeTakeDat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: tracer3232 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: zultan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: angouvine folded before Flop (didn't bet)

It's BoDog
It's 50NL
Hero raised into the Big Blind

All reasons I'm less inclined to put him on QQ+.

Speaking of PokerStars, more than once I've made this raise from the BN/SB, folded to a push and been shown Ax and crap hands.

BTW: I had 99

maybe I just don't get that kind of action because I use the auto-fold button so much.

Originally Posted by Lukie

maybe I just don't get that kind of action because I use the auto-fold button so much.

That and I know you have AA fishing for a call a lot when you do that. I thought about it for a bit and realized that if I only called QQ+, heck KK+, then I wouldn't be giving up enough and might even be correct. I figured your range at something like maybe 75% AA 25% air without further information on the chances you're screwing around with air. If you pulled this off a couple more times, I would consider calling with TT+/AK.

Originally Posted by bair

making this call just because most bodog players play it this way is just like making a call using racial or gender profiling to get a read, which i assume is something you wouldn't do.

Originally Posted by Mike Caro

...you should notice things about each player's appearance that might provide clues to future poker behaviour... As a general rule, women are harder to bluff than men. Orientals are either very skillful or very luck oriented. Relatively few blacks play to win; most tend to gamble more liberally than other players. When you're up against an unknown player, you'll earn extra profit by assuming he or she will play as a stereotype until you learn differently.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Lukie

maybe I just don't get that kind of action because I use the auto-fold button so much.

That and I know you have AA fishing for a call a lot when you do that. I thought about it for a bit and realized that if I only called QQ+, heck KK+, then I wouldn't be giving up enough and might even be correct. I figured your range at something like maybe 75% AA 25% air without further information on the chances you're screwing around with air. If you pulled this off a couple more times, I would consider calling with TT+/AK.

When I used to do that at stars (I don't anymore since you can't reload), calling that push preflop with KK would be really, REALLY -ev. Against me.

also, nobody full stacked EVER called that push. So I'd always have this debate with myself, whether it was worth it. 'it' being open pushing AA from the SB and reloading.

After considering that i'm pretty much going to just pick up the blind every time and I'm losing a lot of value here (maybe get a call from QQ+? KK+? AA?), and I'm making my raising range worse (since I'd often just push AA, doubt anyone ever even realized this though))

vs

having my stack 100bb bigger.


I always decided that the 2nd option was better.

samsonite's comments good logic
bair's comments bad logic
easy call, all day every day

Why would anyone multi table on Bodog if this is the case.

You've obviously yet to discover the joys of Bodonk. It's worth all the bad software in the world.

It's Bodog
It's 50NL
Hero raised into the Big Blind

My argument in a nutshell...

Originally Posted by bair

just because "most" of the players on the site play that way doesn't give you an excuse to call this. its an easy fold and a terribly hard call. so fold

WTF? Are we playing poker or some game theory exercise against an ideal opponent, when in reality it's probably some drunk who wants to GAMB00L or kiddie who's camping 11 other tables.

Originally Posted by Lukie

But I see this move so rarely (on all streets), and when I do see it, it's usually the nuts.

Totally agree.

results please