Betting into PF Raiser with bottom set

OK, no real read on Villain (in CO). Called his PF raise with my middle pocket pair. Hit my set and opened the betting on the flop with two hearts on the board.

Then I get an earfull in chat about being a donk, shoulda folded PF, shouldn't lead the flop, etc. Is betting into the PF aggressor correct here with the flush draw on board?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($9.40)
BB ($10.35)
UTG ($17.95)
MP1 ($5.85)
MP2 ($10.05)
CO ($9.85)
Button ($13.10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
3 folds, CO raises to $0.4, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold.

Flop: ($0.90) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $0.6, CO raises to $1.8, Hero calls $1.20.

Turn: ($4.50) (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($4.50) (2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO folds.

Final Pot: $8.50

Results in white below:
Hero has 5s 5c (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $8.50.

If PF raiser is aggro post-flop then you can probably check the flop if you want or bet it - it's all good. You should also value bet the turn I think - he has the king I assume?

You know he's wrong about your PF call though, right? Call every day unless he's got like 1/4 stack.

Nh sir. I'll sometimes 3-bet flop because I just hate it when I smooth call here and a heart falls on the turn. I take it you were going to c/r turn?

Edit: as for the chatbox, a simple "ssh, I'm trying to count my chips" usually does it. "www.disneyworld.com" can also be fun.

Originally Posted by biondino

If PF raiser is aggro post-flop then you can probably check the flop if you want or bet it - it's all good. You should also value bet the turn I think - he has the king I assume?

You know he's wrong about your PF call though, right? Call every day unless he's got like 1/4 stack.

Certainly. All the table coaches were agreeing with the villain to an extent, very funny chat. I'll have to post it in the "That Guy" comment thread.


EDIT: Here is some of the banter:

*** RIVER *** [5d 8h Kh 3c] [Js]
Hero: bets $4
Villain said, "wow man"
Villain said, "just wow"
Villain said, "unless you have AK youre a ****ing donk"
Villain has timed out
Villain: folds
Villain is sitting out
Villain said, "so ridiculous"
Hero collected $4.30 from pot
Hero: doesn't show hand

If you werent taking my chat seriously anyways, why even post about it?

You've never had someone talk shit to you during a hand?

Sorry I dont act like Chris Furgeson at all times. I occasinonally go on tilt, like anyone else. Lol. I'd rather spam the chat about how bad I thought your plays were than take it out on the cards and lose more money.

I might even get you trying to play back at me on purpose. I commonly try to get into people's heads while I'm playing... especially if I'm a little frustrated.

Every single PFR I was making on all 4 tables was getting called and they were betting into me every single time on the flop with a hand or not. It was getting old.

And I never said you should have folded preflop, that was before you told me you had a set. Then I suggested maybe checking to the TAGG next time instead of leading into me and smooth calling my raise. I knew I was behind at that point. Theres no reason to lead into me and let me fold if I dont have a K just to protect against a flush draw against 1 player when I'm almost certainly going to c-bet this flop in which case you could check raise me.

But whatever... I bet into people with sets sometimes too. If you werent taking my comments seriously, dont post about them and try to make fun of me. Thanks!!!

I'd re-raise the flop whilst he's happy to put money in the pot and bet at him on the turn so he can't draw to that for free.

Chat is funny i'd of said 'and I was worried you had the flush woulda folded to a re-raise!' or something .

Originally Posted by Werddown

If you werent taking my chat seriously anyways, why even post about it?

You've never had someone talk shit to you during a hand?

Sorry I dont act like Chris Furgeson at all times. I occasinonally go on tilt, like anyone else. Lol. I'd rather spam the chat about how bad I thought your plays were than take it out on the cards and lose more money.

I wasn't posting it to bash you, I was checking my line. That's why I left your name out of it.

Originally Posted by geoffm33

Originally Posted by Werddown

If you werent taking my chat seriously anyways, why even post about it?

You've never had someone talk shit to you during a hand?

Sorry I dont act like Chris Furgeson at all times. I occasinonally go on tilt, like anyone else. Lol. I'd rather spam the chat about how bad I thought your plays were than take it out on the cards and lose more money.

I wasn't posting it to bash you, I was checking my line. That's why I left your name out of it.

I would have believed that if you didnt say "I'll see you on FTR!!!" at the table and then make a follow up post to your original one with my actual comments from the table, almost daring me to respond to the thread, when you know I post here. Lol.

But whatever. I'm not mad. Like I said I was tilting hard. You won the hand.

GJ

Originally Posted by Werddown

Originally Posted by geoffm33

Originally Posted by Werddown

If you werent taking my chat seriously anyways, why even post about it?

You've never had someone talk shit to you during a hand?

Sorry I dont act like Chris Furgeson at all times. I occasinonally go on tilt, like anyone else. Lol. I'd rather spam the chat about how bad I thought your plays were than take it out on the cards and lose more money.

I wasn't posting it to bash you, I was checking my line. That's why I left your name out of it.

I would have believed that if you didnt say "I'll see you on FTR!!!" at the table and then make a follow up post to your original one with my actual comments from the table, almost daring me to respond to the thread, when you know I post here. Lol.

But whatever. I'm not mad. Like I said I was tilting hard. You won the hand.

GJ

Well ofcourse I was daring you to respond to the thread. If I was wrong, I would learn something. If you were wrong hopefully you would learn something. After you went off on me in chat I was rethinking my flop play. So I wanted to post it.

Originally Posted by geoffm33

Well ofcourse I was daring you to respond to the thread. If I was wrong, I would learn something. If you were wrong hopefully you would learn something. After you went off on me in chat I was rethinking my flop play. So I wanted to post it.

I still think you would have done alot better check/raising me on the flop. Theres no reason to protect against a flush draw when youre playing aginst 1 TAGG that raised you preflop and is almost certainly going to c-bet a K high flop. If I had a flush draw do you really think im going to check behind? If I didnt hit top pair there, do you think I'm even re-raising you? Once you lead into me and then smooth call my re-raise, I'm just looking to show it down as cheap as I can. Not to mention you then checked the turn after your big call, giving me a free river card.

If you're really worried about the flush possibility I think you have to re-raise me on the flop.... or bet the turn on a non-heart.... Why decide to not to slowplay and then randomly change your mind and try to slowplay the turn?

Thats why I was confused about your hand before you told me you had the set.

I was worried about the flush draw as well as the fact that I had bottom set. I checked the turn to see what you would do. You had a hand obviously, I wasn't sure how good. Probably not the best tactic, but I was a little gun shy after your flop raise.

What kind of flush draw does the guy have to check raise you with? The two top cards on the flop are hearts - A5h maybe? I don't buy that. He raises you here with AK, KQ, K8, AA, but almost never with a simple flush draw unless he's extremely tricky, and you hardly ever see that at this level.

(p.s. wrote the above before reading the amusing exchange above. Chill out chaps, no-one was bitching at anyone. So, did you have KQ, werd?)

Originally Posted by biondino

(p.s. wrote the above before reading the amusing exchange above. Chill out chaps, no-one was bitching at anyone. So, did you have KQ, werd?)

I think we are cool. I agree I may have misplayed the turn.

werddown, I have noticed that you play the $10NL on Stars from your HH post so I was wondering when I was going to see you at the tables. And again, I wasn't trying to bash you by posting so I hope it didn't come off that way.

Yeah I've got too much money to make to be mad at people and hold grudges.

Especially over a game....

Thats just how I deal with tilt sometimes... I'm trying to do it less though because it actually hurts my play on my other tables while Im typing

Im glad it was someone who takes poker a little bit more seriously rather than the random gambolooor though

preflop is probably close. I'd probably fold against a solid player and call against somebody that is bad. Based on this thread, villain seems bad so I'd call.

Flop, best line IMO is to bet/3bet and try to get as much money in as you can while he still likes his strong 1 pair. If you smooth call and check the turn you need to be very confident that he'll bet again but you can never know for sure, which is why I don't particularly like this line. Obvious C/R on the turn when he bets.

River is fine.

I would either 3-bet bomb this on the flop to rep a draw or donk the turn too. I really hate c/r bombing the turn with such a strong hand, risking a check through.

You both SUCK at table chat too. It's really terrible for the game.

Why give negative feedback to people you feel play badly? Do you want them to learn to play better? Do you want to draw attention to the fact that you try to play well?
Why would you ever defend yourself against someone who calls you a terrible player? It's free fucking advertising. If someone else says it, it's an instant table image to exploit.
Telling someone straight up your hand is silly. It gives bad players less incentive to look you up.

BTW: My answer to that tirade would be "I guess you missed too?" It might put you further on tilt, gets information out of you and suggests that people should look me up more often.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I would either 3-bet bomb this on the flop to rep a draw or donk the turn too. I really hate c/r bombing the turn with such a strong hand, risking a check through.

You both SUCK at table chat too. It's really terrible for the game.

Why would you call someone a donk at the table?
Why give negative feedback to people you feel play badly?
Why woud you ever defend yourself against someone who calls you a terrible player? It's free fucking advertising. If someone else says it, it's an instant table image to exploit.
Telling someone straight up your hand is silly. It gives bad players less incentive to look you up.

BTW: My answer to that tirade would be "I guess you missed too?" It might put you further on tilt, gets information out of you and suggests that people should look me up more often.

Agreed, I usually don't. And I turn off chat when it gets too loud at the table. Early morning with too much caffeine did me in.

Originally Posted by geoffm33

Agreed, I usually don't.

CALL

Originally Posted by Werddown

Theres no reason to lead into me and let me fold if I dont have a K just to protect against a flush draw against 1 player when I'm almost certainly going to c-bet this flop in which case you could check raise me.

There are lots of reasons to lead this into TAgg. With a flopped set, he's looking to play bigger than just picking off a c-bet (particulary if you're betting less than pot.) I think you wish he just check/raised because it makes it easier for you to get away from your hand.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by geoffm33

Agreed, I usually don't.

CALL

hey fnord, I think he was bluffing.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Werddown

Theres no reason to lead into me and let me fold if I dont have a K just to protect against a flush draw against 1 player when I'm almost certainly going to c-bet this flop in which case you could check raise me.

There are lots of reasons to lead this into TAgg. With a flopped set, he's looking to play bigger than just picking off a c-bet (particulary if you're betting less than pot.) I think you wish he just check/raised because it makes it easier for you to get away from your hand.

i don't think werddown has any idea what he's talking about

Originally Posted by Werddown

Yeah I've got too much money to make to be mad at people and hold grudges.

This is 10nl....


Anyways, preflop I dont think is a problem at all. Its folded to the CO who makes a standard raise, calling shouldnt be a problem with a PP as long as you can get away when your hand obviously isnt best. I agree with lukie here, on this flop you want to get as much money in as possible and leading this flop is the best way to do that. If the pot were big enough that you could checkraise AI then Id suggest that, but here leading isnt bad at all unless you think villain was making a position play and will fold to your bet.

I think I would like to get it all in on the turn, but Im not too sure. Lukie, if you take a bet/3bet line on this flop how would you handle the turn?

Originally Posted by Werddown

I occasinonally go on tilt, like anyone else. Lol.

Wrong. I can honestly say that I've never embarrassed myself in the table chat the way you did here, and I bet the same goes for other posters too.

Oh wow.

I dont care what you think of my attitude at the table.

Thats how I deal with tilt, and get into the head of my opponent (it worked here)

Think what you want, you're just being a bigger troll if you try to ridicule me for it.

And as to the comment about not making money at $10 NL... You have to start somewhere, and for me , thats playing within my bankroll.

I let this go a long time ago and explained I didnt mean anything serious by it.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Wrong. I can honestly say that I've never embarrassed myself in the table chat the way you did here, and I bet the same goes for other posters too.

Well doesnt that just make you a wonderful person!

I guess the difference is, I dont care what a random internet player thinks of me on an online chat, and you do. Theres nothing in the rules that says I cant talk shit to people after the hands.

In fact alot of winning players do it commonly.

Originally Posted by Lukie

i don't think werddown has any idea what he's talking about

I gave my opinion.

I didnt say I was right.

I said "I think".

It's sad that you have to cut me down like that.

Oh.. and my post about not leading into me on the flop... I thought I made it pretty clear that I thought it would be a good move, had he not slowed down and just called my re-raise, and then checked the turn.. I think he needed to decide one way or the other to slowplay me or not. I dont think leading into me , flat calling my re-raise, and checking the turn was effective at all.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I would either 3-bet bomb this on the flop to rep a draw or donk the turn too. I really hate c/r bombing the turn with such a strong hand, risking a check through..

^Hey Lukie, if you scroll up to my earlier comments, and read what I said above, this is almost the exact same opinion I had of how he should have played it if he was going to lead into me. I guess I dont know what I'm talking about though.. Lol

Originally Posted by Fnord

You both SUCK at table chat too. It's really terrible for the game.

Why give negative feedback to people you feel play badly? Do you want them to learn to play better? Do you want to draw attention to the fact that you try to play well?
Why would you ever defend yourself against someone who calls you a terrible player? It's free fucking advertising. If someone else says it, it's an instant table image to exploit.
Telling someone straight up your hand is silly. It gives bad players less incentive to look you up

Wasnt Phil Helmuth voted the best player in the world by his peers?

Regardless of what you think of table chat, it can be very effective at getting in peoples heads. I cannot tell you the amount of times people have intentionally tried to get involved in hands with me becuase they thought I was tilting after my chat rambling, or thinking I was playing back at them because of some personal grudge, and I destacked them hardcore. Phil Helmuth has made this same point tons of times when defending why he acts the way he does at the table.

Actually I've seen videos of top players on high limit tables just talking garbage to people after every bad hand they showdown. It kind of lets them know that you dont think they are worth anything and you will play back at them with less than great hands. This is wonderful for getting people to pay you off when you really do hit it hard.

Originally Posted by Fnord

You both SUCK at table chat too. It's really terrible for the game.

Why give negative feedback to people you feel play badly? Do you want them to learn to play better? Do you want to draw attention to the fact that you try to play well?
Why would you ever defend yourself against someone who calls you a terrible player? It's free fucking advertising. If someone else says it, it's an instant table image to exploit.
Telling someone straight up your hand is silly. It gives bad players less incentive to look you up.

Heh, I wanted to post this too. Now I'd just be repeating Ford. Basically, if someone says I suck, I take it with a smile like a sucker. If I win a hand I usually say nothing, but if I do I say "lucky". I don't want to advertise that I know what I'm doing - quite the opposite actually.

Another thing, which is an even bigger mistake - why the hell did you take his bait and give away what hand you really had?? Here you lie! Say you had a flush draw, or 77, or air. It doesn't matter, just as long as they don't tie your betting pattern to your real hand! (I prefer to say something different than I had, but also somewhat plausible - if you just pretend to bluff all the time they don't believe you)


And I agree with Werddown about one thing - these insults are a valid strategy. Not one I use, but they sure have an effect on your opponent. Here he got his opp to give away his real hand, for one thing. Another is that it can knock others off their game if they get genuinly annoyed, and make them play disadvantaged pots with you, or call you down because they think you are bluffing them out (ie that it's personal) or tilting or something.

Werddown,

I'm not interested in getting involved in an Internet penis-waving contest with you or anyone else, this is a board where we try to help each other out, not shout at each other. And we're suggesting that if you stop acting like a jerk in the table chat, it might help you do a better job of handling the tilt issues that you admit you have.

If you're really the master of getting inside people's heads with insults, why are you still at 10NL after being a member of this message board for a year? It's great that you're honest enough with yourself that you play within your bankroll, but you could probably move up and start making some real money if you kept a cooler head and stopped making excuses for your tilt problem. No, not everyone does it, and no, it doesn't help your game out. For example, in this hand, you went ballistic against a guy who made a very OK play, with nothing really wrong with it. In the process you gave away information about how you think a set should be played, why would you want to give your opponents free information about how you play the game? If your opponent were a donkey it'd be even worse because you might be helping them play better against you.

Good luck!

why are you still at 10NL after being a member of this message board for a year? It's great that you're honest enough with yourself that you play within your bankroll, but you could probably move up and start making some real money if you kept a cooler head and stopped making excuses for your tilt problem. No, not everyone does it, and no, it doesn't help your game out. For example, in this hand, you went ballistic against a guy who made a very OK play, with nothing really wrong with it. In the process you gave away information about how you think a set should be played, why would you want to give your opponents free information about how you play the game? If your opponent were a donkey it'd be even worse because you might be helping them play better against you.

Quoted for truth. Most people are here to help you.

river c/r ai would be really sexy.

This is my most common set line, except I bet the turn.

Originally Posted by Renton

This is my most common set line, except I bet the turn.

Does this work better for you than bet/3-bet?

I gave my opinion.

I didnt say I was right.

I said "I think".

me too

It's sad that you have to cut me down like that.

I don't know you and I don't have anything against you. I'm trying to make the readers of my forum better poker players. That's all. Good day to you.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Renton

This is my most common set line, except I bet the turn.

Does this work better for you than bet/3-bet?

It depends on the player. An aggressive player could be doing this with a flush draw, so then there's little/no value in a 3bet. If I put my opponent on a good hand (overpair/twopair), then I 3bet.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Renton

This is my most common set line, except I bet the turn.

Does this work better for you than bet/3-bet?

It depends on the player. An aggressive player could be doing this with a flush draw, so then there's little/no value in a 3bet. If I put my opponent on a good hand (overpair/twopair), then I 3bet.

don't you mean that, if he's doing it with a flush draw, the far-and-away best play is to 3-bet?

I reraise flop/push turn and smile as I pawn his overpaur.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by Renton

This is my most common set line, except I bet the turn.

Does this work better for you than bet/3-bet?

It depends on the player. An aggressive player could be doing this with a flush draw, so then there's little/no value in a 3bet. If I put my opponent on a good hand (overpair/twopair), then I 3bet.

don't you mean that, if he's doing it with a flush draw, the far-and-away best play is to 3-bet?

What is the point of pushing him off a draw?

are you suggesting that giving the draw a free card is the better play?

Originally Posted by Lukie

are you suggesting that giving the draw a free card is the better play?

I think he is suggesting that a 3 bet would cause him to fold. I am not sure that is true though. Certainly getting more money in sooner is the better play if he is on a flush draw.

I change my play in this situation a lot based on read. On the flop I like to lead with a set if I think there's a high probability of being raised - either because the other player is aggro enough to raise most of the time, or because I think they have an overpair or top pair they can't get away from.

If I suspect an overpair/TPTK (say, if I raised pre-flop and they re-raised) then I'll 3-bet the flop and let nature take its course. Most players aren't good enough to let it go, they think you're fucking with them. If I think they were just test-raising - and make no mistake, a lot of players do this with missed AK and AQ, or a softer hand like JJ with an overcard on the board - then I'll flat-call the raise.

The turn is a new set of things to think about. Assuming I flat-called the flop raise, there are two legitimate next actions that work depending on who you're playing. A lead is good for making sure it doesn't go check-check and give a free card to a draw. However, a lead doesn't often get called here by missed overs. It will work against an overpair/TPTK, but there's almost no bad play against those hands, because if you check he's betting anyway. Attempting to c/r, contrary to what werddown said, is not bad, especially against an aware opponent. Regardless of his cards, an aware player will think that by you leading into him and then flat-calling his raise on the flop, then checking the turn, that you are weak and he can take the pot from you. He will certainly value-bet a big pair, and probably bet with a lot of other hands to try to knock you off whatever you have. This is not a change of approach (fast play vs. slowplay) - rather, it's responding to your opponent and setting up a line that causes them to put more money in when they have little or no chance of winning the hand. Against a smart and aggressive player who I suspect has a wide hand range, I definitely like leading and then calling the flop, then check-raising the turn. It gets the most bets out of them when they have nothing, and doesn't lose much value when they have a made hand because they'll drive the betting anyway. It's only potentially bad against a flush draw, which frankly I'm not that worried about with a big heart out there.

Here, against werddown, I'd probably just lead the turn. As played through the turn, I would have bet a little less on the river - maybe $3.

Originally Posted by EricE

Originally Posted by Lukie

are you suggesting that giving the draw a free card is the better play?

I think he is suggesting that a 3 bet would cause him to fold. I am not sure that is true though. Certainly getting more money in sooner is the better play if he is on a flush draw.

Making the flush draw fold is better then letting him have a free card.

We prefer he makes a call without the implied odds necessary to make it correct.

Also, how often do you think an NL10 player folds a flush draw here? Be honest.

Originally Posted by Lukie

Also, how often do you think an NL10 player folds a flush draw here? Be honest.

We were talking about it I played it, and naturally I didn't take NL10 play into acct.


Hows he seeing a free card? He is paying more than the pot to see the turn if we just bet and he raises. And we're betting/pushing a blank turn, so he definitely isn't seeing a free river.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Lukie

Also, how often do you think an NL10 player folds a flush draw here? Be honest.

We were talking about it I played it, and naturally I didn't take NL10 play into acct.


Hows he seeing a free card? He is paying more than the pot to see the turn if we just bet and he raises. And we're betting/pushing a blank turn, so he definitely isn't seeing a free river.

he's seeing a free card because that money is already in the pot and action is on us.

I'm not saying bet/3bet is always the best line to take with a set on a 2 tone flop (although I do think it's often the best, or a very good line), I'm saying that if he's on a flush draw, we lead, and he raises, the best play (it's not close IMO) is to 3 bet. I don't really see how that can be debated......

Originally Posted by Lukie

I'm not saying bet/3bet is always the best line to take with a set on a 2 tone flop (although I do think it's often the best, or a very good line), I'm saying that if he's on a flush draw, we lead, and he raises, the best play (it's not close IMO) is to 3 bet. I don't really see how that can be debated......

If villian is known to be super aggro and you are sure he will bomb the turn if you just call, then the EV you gain by peeling a blank turn can easily make calling more +EV than a 3-bet. But with no read, I agree with you.

Can you guys explain why you are not worried about a flush just because one high card of the suit is out there. Expecially since it isnt an ace there are still many possible suited hands, usually I worry less when there are a few high cards of the suit on the board. Can someone explain this to me?