Big pair vs. a horde of nutcrackers

Hilarious. I pop up the preflop action HUGE hoping to clean up the field a bit. Of course it doesn't...

So how do you play the raggy but very drawable flop? Keep in mind the pot is $12.

#Game No : 3286197477
***** Hand History for Game 3286197477 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, December 30, 13:51:56 EDT 2005
Table Table 68022 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: Thewicked666 ( $24.40 )
Seat 5: TheChipGimp ( $26.24 )
Seat 7: flash1519 ( $24.49 )
Seat 8: Baaash ( $20.89 )
Seat 10: cljht ( $7.20 )
Seat 3: kohsteven ( $9.50 )
Seat 2: HardC0reM0JO ( $26.93 )
Seat 6: CPrent ( $20.15 )
Seat 1: tanchula ( $25 )
Seat 9: danilo101 ( $24.75 )
CPrent posts small blind [$0.10].
flash1519 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TheChipGimp [ Qc Qd ]
Baaash folds.
danilo101 calls [$0.25].
cljht raises [$1].
BLACKJACK MASTERS!
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Dec 23, 2005 to Jan 12, 2006
HardC0reM0JO calls [$1].
kohsteven folds.
Thewicked666 calls [$1].
>You have options at Table 65465 (No DP) Table!.
TheChipGimp raises [$3].
CPrent folds.
flash1519 folds.
danilo101 folds.
cljht calls [$2].
HardC0reM0JO calls [$2].
Thewicked666 calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, 8c, 4d ]
cljht checks.
HardC0reM0JO checks.
Thewicked666 checks.

....

I would probably pop it up to $4.50 preflop. Given your play, I bet $9-10 on the flop and get the rest in on the turn.

That's not a huge raise. Try $5; I'd only expect 1 or 2 callers with that. Then pot that flop...

I agree with both responses, at $25 NL you have to re-raise well over the top if you want to really narrow the field. If someone raised to $1 and 2 others already called that, raising to $3 won't scare them away. $4 might get some results, but $5 is what I would go for as well. Given that kind of flop, betting strong would be the best option imo, and depending on the turn card (if others call) you could slow down if you think someone has made their hand, otherwise continue betting strong. Chances are you have the best hand at this point (doubtful anyone has KK or AA since no one else raised/re-raised and the flop was checked to you).

Just my thoughts.

More preflop.
Im actually thinking open pushing that flop. Debateable play but probably +ev.

thanks for the comments on the preflop raise.

As for the flop - miffed brings up a very good point. Open-pushing the flop does suck if someone has made their set, but the pot is already $12, or half everyone's stack.

If I pot the flop I only have ~$12 left on the turn which certainly wouldn't be enough to chase out draws; since all the money is probably going in on the turn, why wouldn't you push the flop?

Originally Posted by Blinky

thanks for the comments on the preflop raise.

As for the flop - miffed brings up a very good point. Open-pushing the flop does suck if someone has made their set, but the pot is already $12, or half everyone's stack.

If I pot the flop I only have ~$12 left on the turn which certainly wouldn't be enough to chase out draws; since all the money is probably going in on the turn, why wouldn't you push the flop?

You pretty much got it. I commt myself there and then along with anyone who wants to chase. Its an ugly situation simply because you were weak preflop. $4.5 has been mentioned but i make this $8 at least. The only hands calling that are premiums, AK (possibly AQ at this level) and maybe pps, but unlikely. Therefore in that case you pot the flop but in this case i push coz as u notice poting thsi flop puts me in on the turn.

I don't like pushing this flop, you are only getting called by a set. Just because potting it commits you to the turn dosent make it bad play, its the only way to get value from chasers and lower PP. Remember if a chaser is going to call pot sized bets you don't want to chase them out as their giving you money in the long run.

Originally Posted by finky

I don't like pushing this flop, you are only getting called by a set. Just because potting it commits you to the turn dosent make it bad play, its the only way to get value from chasers and lower PP. Remember if a chaser is going to call pot sized bets you don't want to chase them out as their giving you money in the long run.

id argue here if a chaser calls a pot on this he'll call for the rest on the turn for sure.
Id also argue mr chaser may play for stacks here if we push anyway, because of the size of the pot. As a counter arguement i'd be tempted to push this flop with the nut draw.
I agree, that just pushing isnt the best option but the situation was created from less than perfect preflop play, and im trying not to be harsh. I just think pushing in this messy situation solves a lot of problems, more than someone pushing into you on the turn when any old card hits

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

id argue here if a chaser calls a pot on this he'll call for the rest on the turn for sure.
Id also argue mr chaser may play for stacks here if we push anyway, because of the size of the pot. As a counter arguement i'd be tempted to push this flop with the nut draw.

Why not make it more tempting to play for stacks? We are probably a 3:1 favorite, more risk but more +EV.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I just think pushing in this messy situation solves a lot of problems, more than someone pushing into you on the turn when any old card hits

I'll agree pushing is a safer option and has more chance of winning the pot, but would you risk the rest of your stack stringing them along on the 1 in 3 chance of getting drawn out? If your giving bad odds why not?

If you think someone will call a flop push with just a flush draw then the EV is the same either way but you give yourself a chance to dump it on the turn if it hits (although I'd need to know the villian is unable to rep the board on a bluff). If a blank hits the villian won't fold to a push on the turn but if he is chasing they are still making a mistake to call.

Also a push may scare off some TP or lower overpairs that are in serious trouble against us. Maby I'm just greedy but I see more value in there somewhere.

I dont like pushing because the only hand which check/calls your push is a set. A draw is maybe trying a fish blocking bet or a semi-bluff. TP bets into you and I dontthink enough people like flush drawing for their stack. Don't get me wrong you loose your stack to a set most of the ways you play this but I think I want to try and keep some other possible holdings in 'till the turn card without odds.

I pot it or maybe bet $14 for added fold inducing power.

Originally Posted by iRICHeyes

I dont like pushing because the only hand which check/calls your push is a set. A draw is maybe trying a fish blocking bet or a semi-bluff. TP bets into you and I dontthink enough people like flush drawing for their stack. Don't get me wrong you loose your stack to a set most of the ways you play this but I think I want to try and keep some other possible holdings in 'till the turn card without odds.

I pot it or maybe bet $14 for added fold inducing power.

I can see all the arguements for this but that flop is far to dangerous imo. There are so many danger cards its unreal, not to mention how many of the fish are gona put you on nothing anyway and not QQ.
Its a messy situation and while their is much more expected value to be made i think this is far to vulnerable a situation to mess about with pot bets etc (as strong as potting this flop is)
Playing for stacks while its more than likely we're ahead is my preference to potting the flop and finding anything on the turn that makes us fold. Id i think i'd go as far to say i'd rather check/fold here than pot it.
But i understand the other opinions and by no means feel that potting this is the wrong option. Far from it

how is that huge