Call?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $10.45
UTG+1: $19.20
MP1: $15.00, is sitting out
MP2: $14.15
MP3: $42.45
Hero: $45.95
Button: $7.70
SB: $19.55
BB: $6.65

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with Ad 9d
3 folds, MP2 raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold,

Flop: 3d Tc 2d ($3.75, 4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP2 bets $3.25, Hero calls, 2 folds

Turn: 9c ($10.25, 2 players)
MP2 bets $9.90 and is all in, Hero ???


Villain has folded preflop 9/10 hands and limped once, folding to a weak flop bet.

Thoughts?? Also generally this type of hand @ these levels?

Would it be +EV to call this cos of no. of times you see AK or nothing + no. of times u hit one of your 14 outs?

Editing..

He's clearly married to his hand, JJ fits. Wouldn't put him on AK with his supposed nitty image. Probably -EV, but only slightly. GAMBOL.

Originally Posted by takesix

Editing..

He's clearly married to his hand, JJ fits. Wouldn't put him on AK with his supposed nitty image. Probably -EV, but only slightly. GAMBOL.

Are you kidding me? Everything about this hand is -EV...

Preflop is meh, I'm folding against a shortie but whatever. The flop call is terrible and you're getting not even 2:1 to make the call on the turn....

Your hand is so pretty but you have to fold atleast the flop, if not preflop. He's not giving you odds to call. Looks like a nit who caught a piece and is playing it fast to cash in.

If you are the only caller this is a clear fold preflop. A9s you want to play for flush value, position in a multiway pot is great for this hand. With callers in front of me I would consider it.

Since you checked on the flop villain puts you (rightly so) on the draw and overbets it to drive you out. Your call on the flop is definately -EV. I would put villain on A10 or even more likely on an overpair. A smart player can do this with Air (AK, AQ), but I dont want to find out.

Fold preflop next time...

Thanks for replies people.

I stuffed up the posting of this hand I think. The blinds both called preflop and I was last to act on the flop and I just called.

ALERT!!

I've always called upto pot size bet on the flop in position with a nut flush draw when I think I will get a checked turn regardless of whether it hits or not. Is this -EV? (If I see both cards)
In my experience playing this level more often than not a big flop bet if called will be checked to the caller either as weakness/concession or looking to check raise. People seem to fire one shot and either give up with nothing or when not sure check/call with almost anything.

Now people pretty much hate the call preflop which is interesting seeing as though I have position and the large stack. Isn't this the time to open range a little more and muscle pots? Am I stuck in tournament mode? Opponents stack is 60% of Max Buy-In so medium shortie. What range of hands would people call a raise in this situation with?

Originally Posted by takesix

Editing..

He's clearly married to his hand, JJ fits. Wouldn't put him on AK with his supposed nitty image. Probably -EV, but only slightly. GAMBOL.

I don't know WHAT the hell I was thinking last night... must have had too many Newscastles...

I can understand the kinda float on the flop, it is definitely an expoloitable pattern with people who are too tight, but the turn has gotta go. Your 32% to win this with your 14 outs, worse if one of his outs takes out one of your flush cards (JcJd, KsKd, etc.) and being shoved a near PSB, and only 25% if he's sitting on AA and yeah. Fizzold.

Originally Posted by gebir

Now people pretty much hate the call preflop which is interesting seeing as though I have position and the large stack. Isn't this the time to open range a little more and muscle pots? Am I stuck in tournament mode? Opponents stack is 60% of Max Buy-In so medium shortie. What range of hands would people call a raise in this situation with?

Having the big stack in position vs a shortie isn't really important here... are you new to ring?

Seems like you might have started as a sng/mtt player... in ring you want the people to have fuller stacks so you can win more when you hit your hand. In a MTT or something you can exploit short/mid stacks because they do not want to bust out and be gone... in ring then can just buy right back in.

Originally Posted by gebir

I've always called upto pot size bet on the flop in position with a nut flush draw when I think I will get a checked turn regardless of whether it hits or not. Is this -EV? (If I see both cards)

The reason you can do sometimes do this is 'implied odds', the idea that, while you're not getting correct pot odds to call, if you do hit your flush, you can take a good bit of the rest of your opponent's stack.

Thus, if you think he'll stop betting after the flop (as you may well suspect of a tight player like this), you do NOT have enough implied odds to call the flop bet. If he checks the turn to you, he's probably not putting another penny in the pot. So, calling the flop and maybe the turn bet here is dependent entirely on the kind of player you're up against. You should be more likely to call on the flop against players who are more loose and aggressive.

If you think this player is very weak/tight, and you want to exploit that, raise the flop, don't just call.

Raise the flop all-in. It's likely that any ace is an out for you along with any diamond and you probably have some fold equity here.

This is still a preflop fold to a raise. Even if you think the blinds will call behind you, you are not guaranteed of that. Ok to limp, not okay to call $1 into a $1.40 pot. You need lots of limpers, or otherwise see EP raise, and several people call before you, to call this. I like to see 3-4x the bet size already in the pot before it gets to me when deciding to play Ax suited preflop, unless the hand is strong enough to play on its own.

That being said, I will sometimes call a pot sized flop bet if I flop a draw, but only if I think I will get paid off.

As played, I fold that turn as well. And if the turn were an A instead of a 9, I would feel even worse about your hand.....you will be outkicked more than half the time.....

Originally Posted by takesix

Probably -EV, but only slightly. GAMBOL.

If you are a losing player this is why.

This is still a preflop fold to a raise. Even if you think the blinds will call behind you, you are not guaranteed of that. Ok to limp, not okay to call $1 into a $1.40 pot. You need lots of limpers, or otherwise see EP raise, and several people call before you, to call this. I like to see 3-4x the bet size already in the pot before it gets to me when deciding to play Ax suited preflop, unless the hand is strong enough to play on its own.

Is ATs strong enough here? Pockets above 88s? What if it was 6 handed?

Having the big stack in position vs a shortie isn't really important here... are you new to ring?

New to actually trying to improve my ring game. Played lots of ring and lots more sngs at varying levels but never really concerned myself with understanding much more than very basic theory. This would explain why I have won much money and also lost much money.

I'm currently giving poker a real committed shot in ring starting 50 Buy-Ins @ $25NL and moving up levels as bankroll doubles. Am about 1000 hands into my quest atm. I'm using a massive number of buyins not for risk of busting but so I can develop my game and iron out bad habits I know I must have picked up.

The reason I thought stacks had relevance was simply from spectating some uber high limit games where I could have sworn I saw people leaving when someone had a ridiculously large stack saying things 'like this is ridiculous' etc. Having said that I see the point and I also should have noted recent discussions about the benefits of shortstacking etc.

Thus, if you think he'll stop betting after the flop (as you may well suspect of a tight player like this), you do NOT have enough implied odds to call the flop bet.

I see what you mean but then dont I have fold equity even if I miss because I win on the turn if I bet? but then I am not really calling for the draw but rather setting a bluff up...hmmmm confused?

reraise the flop. If he 3 bets then call and call any turn. If he calls you can either bet the turn hard or check and hope to hit (id bet when you catch a pair)

btw, fold preflop, not enough players in the pot.

Originally Posted by gebir

Is ATs strong enough here? Pockets above 88s? What if it was 6 handed?

I would play ATs and above here, but a lot of guys on here wouldn't. AQs+ would probably be the ideal threshold. But even playing those hands, you have to be careful not to play for top pair, but two pair or better (or your flush draw). The theory is if you call a raise with AQ/AJ/AT, you will be outkicked far too many times to show down TPGK. So, be careful and really think before calling any flop aggression. If you were to raise and then get reraised, you would most assuredly be beat.

Pocket pairs are an entirely different animal. There is a pretty good rule of thumb when it comes to pairs 88 and below. Against a raiser, look at the size bet you have to call. If the raiser has minimum 10X that amount in his stack (and ideally 15x), then call the raise and play for set value. Less than 10X remaining in his stack, and you can dump the mid and low PPs as they don't hold up well enough on their own to pay for themselves.

fold at each opportunity to click your mouse. calling psb's with draws is not +EV, especially against short stacks.