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Call this all in?

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  1. #1

    Default Call this all in?

    *********** # 36 **************
    PokerStars Game #1375140948: Tournament #6201366, Hold'em No Limit - Level III
    (25/50) - 2005/03/18 - 05:46:10 (ET)
    Table '6201366 1' Seat #4 is the button
    Seat 1: cracka24 (2680 in chips)
    Seat 4: bdawg56kg (2480 in chips)
    Seat 5: biggn73 (3408 in chips)
    Seat 6: StageMgr1 (2982 in chips)
    Seat 8: pl-dk (1950 in chips)
    biggn73: posts small blind 25
    StageMgr1: posts big blind 50
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to bdawg56kg [Ts As]
    pl-dk: calls 50
    cracka24: calls 50
    bdawg56kg: raises 150 to 200
    biggn73: folds
    StageMgr1: folds
    pl-dk: folds
    cracka24: calls 150
    *** FLOP *** [4h Td Kh]
    cracka24: checks
    bdawg56kg: bets 350
    cracka24: calls 350
    *** TURN *** [4h Td Kh] [Qc]
    cracka24: checks
    bdawg56kg: checks
    *** RIVER *** [4h Td Kh Qc] [8d]
    cracka24: bets 2130 and is all-in
    bdawg56kg???
  2. #2
    DoGGz Guest
    you have middle pair, no
  3. #3
    TylerK's Avatar
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    It takes me 3 nanoseconds to fold

    Edit: I'll respond in advance to "I called and he showed pocket sixes."
    a) The blinds are tiny relative to your stack
    b) The pot is a good size, but not critical to your tournament success
    c) Your opponent knows these things

    Depending on your read you may have a better than normal chance of picking off a bluff here, but not nearly enough to make this call. Wait for a better opportunity.
    TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
  4. #4
    Definitely, definitely, definitely fold unless you have a really amazing read on this player. He could have king lower kicker and he's worried about being outkicked and unwilling to bet. But he WILL call your bet on the flop and when you check the turn you pretty much concede all the power. Or he could have been poorly drawing to a busted flush, also, but I wouldn't risk my stack on that.
  5. #5
    I would fold even with a good read...
    He probably has J9s or Kxs since he keeps calling.

    If anyone could explein well how to play middle pair on the flop I would be greatful. How do you guys treat, say KTs flop (QT5) rainbow?
  6. #6
    In a ring game or early in a tournament I will fold middle pair almost instantly. If you only have 5 outs (3 outs to make 2 pair and 2 outs to make trips) it's almost always a good fold in a multiway pot. Early in a tournament especially, since your chips are more precious. If you are heads up though it is more common that your opponent hasn't paired up though so I might hang onto it longer.
  7. #7
    Well, here are the results.

    *********** # 36 **************
    PokerStars Game #1375140948: Tournament #6201366, Hold'em No Limit - Level III
    (25/50) - 2005/03/18 - 05:46:10 (ET)
    Table '6201366 1' Seat #4 is the button
    Seat 1: cracka24 (2680 in chips)
    Seat 4: bdawg56kg (2480 in chips)
    Seat 5: biggn73 (3408 in chips)
    Seat 6: StageMgr1 (2982 in chips)
    Seat 8: pl-dk (1950 in chips)
    biggn73: posts small blind 25
    StageMgr1: posts big blind 50
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to bdawg56kg [Ts As]
    pl-dk: calls 50
    cracka24: calls 50
    bdawg56kg: raises 150 to 200
    biggn73: folds
    StageMgr1: folds
    pl-dk: folds
    cracka24: calls 150
    *** FLOP *** [4h Td Kh]
    cracka24: checks
    bdawg56kg: bets 350
    cracka24: calls 350
    *** TURN *** [4h Td Kh] [Qc]
    cracka24: checks
    bdawg56kg: checks
    *** RIVER *** [4h Td Kh Qc] [8d]
    cracka24: bets 2130 and is all-in
    bdawg56kg: calls 1930 and is all-in
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    cracka24: shows [Jh 6h] (high card King)
    bdawg56kg: shows [Ts As] (a pair of Tens)
    bdawg56kg collected 5085 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 5085 | Rake 0
    Board [4h Td Kh Qc 8d]
    Seat 1: cracka24 showed [Jh 6h] and lost with high card King
    Seat 4: bdawg56kg (button) showed [Ts As] and won (5085) with a pair of Tens
    Seat 5: biggn73 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 6: StageMgr1 (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 8: pl-dk folded before Flop


    I admit that this was a very risky play, and normally I don't call this, but I just had a really strong gut feeling that I had the best hand and he was on a busted draw. I was 99% sure he didn't have the king, but was very scared of him having the queen, say Qh 9h, but I decided to just go with my read and call. So given all this, you still think this was an auto-fold?
  8. #8
    michael1123's Avatar
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    Its not an auto-fold. I don't really believe there are such things as auto-folds that don't require any thought, unless you have absolute shit. But you need a good read or "strong gut feeling" clearly. And it depends on how accurate you are at making them.

    If you're a beginner, it may have just been a bad call that got lucky and won. But if you normally fold hands like this easily, but this time had a strong feeling that he was trying a desperation bluff because you showed weakness on the turn, then you made a very good read. Often a check on the turn and then a BIG bet on the river is a bluff, like it was in this case, so there were signs that your hand could be good, the rest depends more on a feel for the game you were in and for the player's style of play.

    Anyone that thinks that calls like this always fall into the first category are fooling themselves. Recently I'm noticing that I'm calling more on the river with A high and low pocket pair (with 3 or 4 overs on the board) than I ever have before, because I'm getting more of these strong feelings. Almost every time for a few weeks I've been correct about them being very weak, but a few of the times my kicker is outkicked (AJ against AQ with neither of us having pairs) or something like that, but the majority of times I've been correct (a couple times resulting in the bluffers then ranting about what a fish I am, calling with such a weak hand).

    The better you get at reading players, the better you become playing with marginal hands, and therefore the more tough calls like this one you can make. Certainly don't try and take calls like this out of your game, just make sure you have good reasons for making the calls, and keep an eye on how often you're making the right decision.

    If this was one of your first big tough calls, pooh pooh what everyone else said and pat yourself on the back. You're starting to think outside the box a bit, relying more on playing against what you think they have instead of just playing your cards. Just don't go trying to do it every hand, or even once a game / day. You just have to take the opportunities to get these "strong gut feelings" as they come.
  9. #9
    FlyingSaucy's Avatar
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    Depends on the player. If he's sensitive to opponent fear (your check behind on the turn), it's often a good move to bet the river aggressively out of position. I think if you are aware that your opponent is probably doing this, then you can bank your estimated percentages that he is bluffing on the payout've got... So in this case it was probably not worth it if you are only like 60% sure he is bluffing, since he overbet the pot by a long shot.

    Unfortunately it's not this simple, because you've got to look at what this move gives you in terms of chances to place higher in the sng. I don't hate your call, only I probably would not have done it unless you had a monster read on his style.
  10. #10
    Thanks michael, I actually remembered a post of yours from the monte carlo tourney where you made the big call with 2nd pair when I was debating whether or not to call or fold. Anyway, this was one of my first big calls, and I think one of the reasons it was so big was because I had all the right reasons to fold, yet made the tough decision anyway. And to confirm, it's not like I go out looking to be the hero and making these kind of calls all the time. The situation just happened to come up and I capitalized upon it.

    By the way michael, I was watching the 10/20 NL tables on stars, and you were absolutely tearing it up. Last I saw you were up to $21-$22k. Amazing stuff man. I've never seen anyone control a table so well in my life. And I never thought it was possible to play so LAGGy and be so successful in a ring game. I mean he was in almost every pot, raising from all positions and getting the others to lay their hands down say 75% of the time. Keep it up man!
  11. #11
    Amazing stuff michael. You should post some more of this for us - I would love to be able to compete at such a level.
  12. #12
    TylerK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
    I admit that this was a very risky play, and normally I don't call this, but I just had a really strong gut feeling that I had the best hand and he was on a busted draw. I was 99% sure he didn't have the king, but was very scared of him having the queen, say Qh 9h, but I decided to just go with my read and call. So given all this, you still think this was an auto-fold?
    If you had given all this information with the original post, you may have gotten responses other than "fold fold fold." However, I think that unless you have a REALLY strong feeling that you have the best hand and aren't just looking for excuses to call, you need to fold this. I will reiterate,

    Quote Originally Posted by TylerK
    Depending on your read you may have a better than normal chance of picking off a bluff here, but not nearly enough to make this call. Wait for a better opportunity.
    TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

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